All Posts by demalus

 Wow, talk about nostalgia...I remember PAX recruitment posts long before SWG was released :)

Good luck!

 I think it's the other way around.  MMOs like WoW hurt single player games.

 You see, your "Objective" is subjective.  Sure, there are people who dismiss people as trolls, but there are just as many that dismiss the opposite side as fanbois.  

Generally, there is a reason for stereotypes.  Why do so many "fanbois" cry out, "Troll!"  It could be that the community is polarized, or it could be that at some point in time, these two stereotypes were warranted, which eventually led to the polarization.

Edit:  And another thing:  I have rarely seen arguments or discussions about the GAME.  I have only seen these "Objective Arguments" about things such as PR and whether or not the game is vaporware.  I wouldn't call that constructive at all.  In fact, just in theory those "arguments" border trolling, do they not?

 I'll give it a try:

- Addressing the seriously unbalanced classes for PvP. [ 1 ]
- Adding the class that was cut just prior to release (despite its popularity). [ 7 ]
- Adding to the severely lacking PvE content. [ 6 ]
- Addressing the rare but annoying graphical glitches. [ X ]
- Fixing the glaring ‘gold exploit’. [ 9 ]
- Tackling the rampant Gold sellers. [ 10 ]
- Fixing the issue that makes players with ATi cards CTD every 45 minutes. [ 2 ]
- Tackling the low population (server merges, transfers etc.) [ 4 ]
- Finishing the ‘End-Game-Uber-Raid’ that was supposed to ship at launch. [ 3 ]
- Implementing the missing Auction House system. [ X ]
- Completing the woefully overlooked Professions. [ 8 ]
- Fixing the broken ‘Castle Siege’ PvP mechanic. [ 5 ]

Bugs can be fixed.  A bad game philosophy can't.  The players need to be able to do -something- even if it is buggy.

 OK, I guess I misunderstood you.  I apologize for that, but most of my post is still relevant.  The only part that is wrong is where I claimed you were making an argument for why it is bad.

Why did you make this post though?  I don't think you are stupid enough to just come here and say "Aventurine is a new compnay, the game isn't out yet, etc."....so I assume you have some sort of point, unless you were (as I said in my post) trolling.

This thread makes no sense at all.  There is not one real argument being made.  I think that qualifies as trolling.  You are making some pseudo-argument for why Darkfall is bad instead of giving real reasons why the game won't be good.

Example:

This game will suck because it has open PvP!  I want to be able to be safe sometimes!

Instead of making some real argument, you come here and try to claim everyone who doesn't agree with you is in some sort of cult?  Also, your arguments about the game are that "it isn't out yet, therefore it isn't good".  I really don't understand why you have made this post or hold the viewpoint you do.  I also don't understand your arguments against Aventurine.  We shouldn't place our faith in them because they are a new company?  So should we place our faith in companies (SOE for example) that keep producing crap?  Let's face it, the big companies involved with MMOs in the forseeable future are all making crappy games.

Hell, just reading the feature list on the Darkfall website is more fun than playing post-WoW MMOs.

 Hah, I pretty much disagree with everyone in this thread.

First of all OP, horrible idea.  If you have just jedi and sith, how is it an MMO?  You are asking for an action game or a single player game, so why don't you stop pretending to like MMOs?

Jedi/Sith are NOT gods.  Only the heroes featured in the films (as MAIN characters) were very powerful.  None of you seem to understand that single player stories DO NOT WORK in MMOs.  If you make everyone Luke Skywalker (which is what the SWG NGE is all about), then how have you effectively told an MMO story and not an MMO story?  Where is the immersion if everyone is Luke/Vader?  And no, not everyone wants to be a Jedi.  In fact, the first three films (4,5,6) focused much more on the galaxy as a whole rather than just the Jedi.  It was more about the PEOPLE of the galaxy...the Rebels,  the evil Empire that is oppressive, the crime lords, and so many more.  Star Wars is awesome because it is so epic, not so limited like your vision for just a Jedi game is.

To all the people who cry that games shouldn't be balanced, go play FPS.  You CANNOT have alpha classes, and if you do, well...your game is just an e-peen fest with a bunch of tards.  It also defeats the purpose of having classes in the first place, no?

Originally posted by Jefferson81

Originally posted by demalus

Originally posted by FreddyNoNose

Originally posted by Jefferson81

Originally posted by lornj

you put them in and make them equal to all the other classes.

 

How can jedi/sith ever be equal to anyone else?

That would just not make any sense.

My suggestion is this: make them unlockable elite classes.

When you hit max level with your regular avatar you can do a chain of difficult quests to unlock the jedi/sith classes.

This would make most people happy, those who wants to be a jedi/sith and those who doesn't want to see the servers overrun by them.

How do you make them equal?  You design the game to make them so.  They are not all powerful.  Being the big fan of SW you must remember a scene in EP1 where young Anakin said "Nobody can kill a jedi". Do you remember the reply to that?  That is all the lore proof you need.

What about the Jefi purge with order 66?  Lowly stormtroopers kill most of them.  And then the are bounty hunters, cyborg generals.  Yup, jedi certainly can't be killed.

 

I -love- when people use selective lore.  If nobody can kill a Jedi, how did almost all of them die by EP4?

I could be wrong, but wasn't the Jedi population also decimated during the KOTOR series?  I know it is 300 years later, so they have time to rebuild, but it isn't like they have a flurishing population.

ALSO (to go with my first point): there were only a handful of extremely powerful Jedi....the true heroes.  Since this game caters to the ideals of "everyone is a hero", I would expect lore to be thrown out the window.

 

I -love- when people use selective hearing or in your case selective reading.

Did I ever type that Jedi's can't be killed?!

Is Han Solo the smuggler and starship pilot on par with Darth Vader?

Defenitely not because Darth Vader is an evil Jedi known as a Sith that can kick the crap out of Mr. Solo with both hands tied behind his back.

Why don't we throw you out the window instead and be done with it?

 

lol, I didn't mean to quote you, but the person you quoted...my bad...

Anyway, it is pretty clear that the people who are very much into this game don't really want to play an MMO, just KOTOR or a Jedi WoW-arena... Immersion is what makes MMOs.  You can't just make everyone a hero because they haven't done anything heroic, so the game turns into a giant participation award.

And throw me out the window?  I can't even fathom why you used that expression.  Why should I be thrown out when I want this to be a good MMO, unlike most of the people in the section who just want a light-saber styled e-peen?

Originally posted by Kordesh

Originally posted by dinanm3atl

Skill base characters? NICE!

Sandbox? I can be a blacksmith mage? NICE!

Item lose on death? NICE!!!!!!!

 

So it sounds like this is UO but better graphics? I may be wrong but that sounds like a winner to me!

 

Can it really be true? I can make a swordsman/mage? I can lose my armor and weps when I die?

 

This sounds exciting!

Wishful thinking. Sadly the old days are dead and gone, and even if Darkfall makes it out of the gate, I don't suspect it will live very long after. Despite popular opinion among the cult of DF, it is possible to be in development too long, and time in development does not automatically equal quality. Considering the problems, secrets, and drawn out development, its going to be an uphill struggle to keep the game going. The game isn't going to run on hopes and dreams, a financial goal is going to need to be met to keep things going, and its questionable if they're going to be able to meet that, especially if they don't deliver on half their promises in a fuctional way which I highly doubt they will.

Wait, stop and think about what you just wrote...it makes no sense at all.

1.) They are self-funded...making this game because they want to make a good game, not to cash out like EA.

2.) If they deliver on half the promises, this game will still be far superior.  Bugs and features can come and go, a good underlying philosophy is forever.

3.) It is possible to be in development too long?  The only other (I'm generalizing a bit) MMO that comes out when it's ready and not when people want it is Wow (and all Blizzard games for that matter).  Do you honestly think SC2, D3, and WotLK will suffer from "being in development too long"?

Originally posted by FreddyNoNose

Originally posted by Jefferson81

Originally posted by lornj

you put them in and make them equal to all the other classes.

 

How can jedi/sith ever be equal to anyone else?

That would just not make any sense.

My suggestion is this: make them unlockable elite classes.

When you hit max level with your regular avatar you can do a chain of difficult quests to unlock the jedi/sith classes.

This would make most people happy, those who wants to be a jedi/sith and those who doesn't want to see the servers overrun by them.

How do you make them equal?  You design the game to make them so.  They are not all powerful.  Being the big fan of SW you must remember a scene in EP1 where young Anakin said "Nobody can kill a jedi". Do you remember the reply to that?  That is all the lore proof you need.

What about the Jefi purge with order 66?  Lowly stormtroopers kill most of them.  And then the are bounty hunters, cyborg generals.  Yup, jedi certainly can't be killed.

I -love- when people use selective lore.  If nobody can kill a Jedi, how did almost all of them die by EP4?

I could be wrong, but wasn't the Jedi population also decimated during the KOTOR series?  I know it is 300 years later, so they have time to rebuild, but it isn't like they have a flurishing population.

ALSO (to go with my first point): there were only a handful of extremely powerful Jedi....the true heroes.  Since this game caters to the ideals of "everyone is a hero", I would expect lore to be thrown out the window.

 Posts like this confirm that some (there seem to be an increasingly high amount of them) MMO "fans" obviously don't know what an MMO is or secretely hate the genre.  

There is not one thing about Nintendo that you could even remotely claim would make a good MMO.  They are having a lot of success in their own market, but I'm kind of tired of all these companies suddenly "drinking the MMO kool-aid" (in other words, milk you for your money with a horrible MMO).

 Why do we need to structure our games as raiding, soloing, grouping, PvP, etc.?

That is such a limited view, imo.  Why can't we begin to think in terms of the player is in a living, breathing world, and whatever one does is up to him or her.

I think MMOs have been suffering from the "meta-game" taking over the real game.  There's a certain magic, an essence, that an MMO has.  Players feel like part of the world (whether it be social aspects or otherwise).  I feel like this is being ripped out and turned into just a meaningless game.  There is a funny WoW simulator out there where you just click a button over and over and you level up.  Is that really any different than WoW?  I feel like most of the newer MMOs are just numbers, just a series of levels and stats.  There's no meaning to these numbers other than for the sake of them.  The same game could theoretically be acheived by clicking a button and gaining new numbers.

D&D and other pen & paper games weren't fun (for most people - I won't try to universalize) just for the stats, although they were how characters were represented.  For me at least, I always liked coming up with my character and then fitting the stats to that character.  The games weren't necessarily about winning or becoming powerful, but the journey.

Maybe it is just me, but I feel like these games are missing the point nowadays.  Why do people play MMOs in the first place?  I certainly fell in love with the genre because of the massive amount of players compromising a real (yet virtual) world and the stuff we could all do together.

So why do we talk in terms of playstyle and rigid structures?  Why can't we create a paradigm-shift in how we view the MMO and instead think in terms of how we can have a massive amount of people coexist in some world that has been created?

 Isn't that the ultimate goal of MMOs anyways?  (To make the world made up of only players)

The only reason NPCs are used is to fill in the gaps because technology doesn't allow us to have as many players as we'd like to have.  I think the MMO community is largely to blame for actually wanting to get rid of the "role playing" element, which is rather unfortunate.  This can be judged by the amount of roleplay hating and the amount of people that love WoW and games like it.

And yes, the RP in RPG is for role playing.  Don't try to win a semantic battle because it is nonsense.  Playing a role doesn't mean playing a class.  When D&D was first invented, it was suppose to be a new version of games like Warhammer that the player would just control one character instead.  They noticed that people were pretending to be their characters and accidentally created "Role Playing Games".

 Why do you people even come to forums if you don't want to discuss things?  Would it be better if we all just continually posted our admiration?  On the contrary, I say.

Anyways, the starcraft example was relevant.  This genre is the only genre that is having these big issues, that is why I can't give a real example from another genre.  If this game has story and focuses on a MASSIVE amount of PLAYERS and what they can do TOGETHER, it'll certainly be the first story-driven MMO and will probably be good (given BioWare's track record).

If however, they are simply taking WoW but throwing in the games Kotor 3, 4, 5, 6, ..., then there is no actual MMO element to the game.  I don't understand why people seem to think that an awesome story that you will play BY YOURSELF (and everyone from your class will do the same thing...but not with you) is a good idea for an MMO.  

Well, whatever.  It is clear to me now that no one actually really cares enough about this game to have a discussion on it.  One month after we all finish it, I'll be very disappointed with the rest of you that we will have to wait x amount of months for the game to continue (patch or expansion).

 Undertow Online!!!

I can certainly dig that, lol

(Undertow is an xbox live arcade game they gave out for free a while ago...pretty nice game for XBLA standards)

 http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-10079875-71.html?part=rss

"Hate is more rational."  

Now, this isn't really a scientific law, just a study, but could this be generalized more?  There are people that hate every MMO.  Do you think that that is more rational than loving an MMO?

Also, are all trolls secretely in love with the game they troll?  I would say yes.  They care about it so much that they'll point out everything they perceive to be wrong.  :)

...Just some food for thought...

Originally posted by pandrax

Originally posted by demalus

Originally posted by efefia

Originally posted by demalus

 

I couldn't agree more.  All I am saying is that they keep saying this is an MMO but it has no MMO elements.  I posed the question to have this discussion be more interactive than to come right out and say, "This isn't an MMO."  Discussion, that's what this forum is all about, no?

 

Anyways, I kept telling many of you that your answers don't answer the quesiton.

Example:

Me: Starcraft 2 is an MMORPG.

You: How is it an MMORPG and not an RTS?

Me: Because Blizzard wanted to make an MMO.

 

That doesn't really answer the question.  I'm hoping to show some of you (who are somehow diehard fans of this game when it isn't even in alpha yet) that they are going down a road of making a single player game (which won't be cureable if they go too far into development).  I eagerly look forward to this game, but I don't want to sit there a month in when we have all finished the story (and maybe multiple ones) and go, "Damn, what is there to do but quit for now :/"

How many MMOs must come out that fail?  Shouldn't we be giving them some positive feedback to let them know that they need to actually make an MMO?  Or are too many of you just wanting this to be a single player game and don't really care whether or not this is actually an MMO (which is fine, but let's not use false terms)?

 

Maybe you could explain to me how SWTOR isn't an fps, or an rts?

The ONLY answer, because it's pretty much the ONLY info we have is that both LA and BioWare have themselves called it an MMO. BioWare spent fuck knows how much money setting up a new MMO studio, filled it with MMO developers to work on this game, if you still think that points at anything other than an MMO, quite frankly you need your head read.

 

Stop taking this so personally, lol.  You probably really only like this game because of former associations (it's Star Wars and it's made by BioWare).  Do you think that a requirement to have an MMO is to call it an "MMO" and to have a bunch of money?

 

Also, do you really think I'm suggesting that this is going to be an actual single player game sold as an MMO?  It will obviously have servers and whatnot, but in theory it won't QUALIFY as an MMO because it will be lacking MMO content.  Imagine if you logged into WoW but could only run around and that was it.  No UI, no chat, no fighting, no menus...nothing but movement.  Would that be an MMORPG?

You seem to think on an extremely literall level...

 

For someone who has been insulting and  borderline trolling for this whole discussion you sure are quick to point out someone else taking it "too seriously". I seriously hope you get suspended for your repeated attempts at trolling, which was horribly done.

 

I really hope you grow up, the world doesn't revolve around you, no matter how much you want it to. Almost everyone is excited over it being an MMO, which is one of the best things that could of happend for the SW universe. If you can't handle that, then I suggest going back to your xbox live where you belong.

You see, this is the kind of stuff I was trying to dispell.  I haven't trolled, I have been having a conversation about the fundamentals of MMOs, which I am a fan of.  Obviously you don't like MMOs.

The world doesn't revolve around me, and I am sick of being disappointed (like everyone else) of all these new crappy MMOs that take the MMO out of MMORPG.  Honestly, I have no idea why people like you are so excited about this game.  You either really don't like MMOs and think this will be a good single player game or you are just assuming it will be good because it is Star Wars or is being made by BioWare.

I want a good Star Wars MMO, what is so hard to understand about that?  You say I'm mad about it being a SW MMO, yet I'm one of the few who seem to want this to actually be an MMO and not just a single player game that will be finished in a month.  I really hope you can understand my viewpoint, because if you truly want a good SW MMO also, then you would also be concerned that this game might not last longer than 2 months.

I haven't insulted anyone, you are just upset that I am being blasphemous against Star Wars and BioWare (which I'm really not).

 I said why WoW was so successful just a few posts ago.

How many games like WoW have been successful I ask you?  WoW is more like Diablo 2 than it is an MMO.

Originally posted by tillamook

So are you saying that MMOs suck now because they aren't sandbox RPG like SWG and UO once was? Shit we all know that, developers found a bigger market, so they will never go the route of 'create your own content thru roplay" like the old days. They are in a way, massively single player games online, but they are still much bigger than any single player game will ever be. The definition of MMO has been defined by Wow.

No no no!  Not true! :p

How many post-WoW games have seen WoW's success?  You can't judge MMOs by WoW.  Here is the problem:  most MMOs have bad quality (but good philosophy).  Then WoW came along and stuck Diablo 2 in with an EXTREMELY polished and high-quality version of older MMOs and people liked it because they liked Diablo 2 (it's more like Diablo 2 than an MMO).  You see, MMOs are about the PLAYERS, the COMMUNITY.  The early MMOs wouldn't have been successful had there not been 200k players on average.

I'm not saying this game should be SWG or even a sandbox.  I'm saying it should focus on players, community and cool things players can do together.  That is why MMOs are a success.  Most people only play WoW because there are no better alternatives and that is where their friends are (most people that I know - I know it is subjective, but I think many of you have had the same experience).

Originally posted by Sliverspark

Originally posted by efefia

Originally posted by demalus

 

Stop taking this so personally, lol.  You probably really only like this game because of former associations (it's Star Wars and it's made by BioWare).  Do you think that a requirement to have an MMO is to call it an "MMO" and to have a bunch of money?

 

Not taking it personal at all, just find it funny that when I s