Originally posted by charlespayne
next step into mmo's i would say pirates of the burning sea and infinity quest for earth and fallen earth as thay got nothing to do with elves and wizards lol

Charlespayne I am with you there mate! I have 4 subscriptions going and I have played the pre Alpha game engine for Infinity more than all of them.  I am looking for a game like the old privateer's with today's graghics and having to actually fly the ship unlike in EVE (albeit I have played EVE for 3 years now so don't start telling me how good it is). 

Infinity seems to have what I am looking for.  Once it is released I am cancelling all the other subs. Until then its AoC, War etc etc.... just to drag me through until release.  Bah! forget the +10 sword,  this boy is waiting to fly a top of the class interceptor with some real nasty weapons to strafe his enemies. Bye bye VG, EVE and the rest....

Earth and Beyond (However the lack of PvP made me leave when I maxed)

EVE

Jumpgate (Has a special place in my heart)

(just outside those, Vanguard, Neocrom)

Thanks Super,

This is great news and I didn't see this announcement.  I just submitted my email for beta.  Hope they give it the attention it deserves.

Not too much to add to the 2 gig of RAM suggestion.  You can probably get a cheap upgrade with 2 gig of RAM and a 7600 gt card.  

I play with 4500+ amd, 2gig, 2x 7600gt.  I would say I play on high spec.  With 1 x 7600gt i lost about 5-10fps. However I average around 40-60 fps. In bad areas its around 20 fps. (some cities).  I have very few issues with the game technically.  I am waiting for some of the other releases to come out then I am going 8 series.

You can probably pick up a 7600 gt card for about 50 bucks these days.  

For the other 2 members.  Start a thread with ya moaning! lol

A lot of valid points.  Unfortunately I do not know of any game that has these concepts or even a few of them in any real form.  However I think the online gaming industry has to move into a dynamic fluid model as the grind can only go so far! 

Recently I did see a comment by SOE about their new project, 'Agency' saying that players can actually play card games against each other etc.  I posted my wish list a few weeks back asking for this exact thing in ALL games.  Besides the crafting and fighting elements in a game I have always wanted a catchy game(s) that can be played by all players.  Its a great social activity and brings the community closer together.  Also referring to your post about owning pubs etc. Imagine if you could upgrade your place so that players would want to play cards there.  You can even set the charge for each table and put up the prize money then advertise the event.  Also when you have a guild house there is little to do besides store items and walk around muttering, 'ooohh' and 'aahhhh' then it just becomes a large bore.  So having games you can learn and collect to play in your guild hall is quite special.  Of course there will be leaderboards and medals handed out.  

As far as using skill in a game the only one I have come across is 'Jumpgate'. Its about 5 years old now but you have to actually fly your ship and in combat its pretty intense. Especially when you are trying to dodge hard objects!   I believe AoC and other upcoming titles are promising targeting combat so its possible that will be more skill than just, target, click...

Stop the grind and bring in some non combat content!

Originally posted by Lidane

 

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Originally posted by chryses

 

I may be wrong but here are some facts I believe about the game:
1. You either love or hate it.  Everyone has an opinion and we just have to deal with that.

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That much is true.

 

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2. It will never be WOW, WAR or AoC.  So they shouldn't even be mentioned in the same post.

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Except for the fact that this game was heavily over-hyped, and didn't even come close to delivering on what was promised. People don't forget things like that easily, especially when, for years on end, the most hardcore fans of this game went far and wide to various message boards, and on the original Sigil forums, turning VG into some sort of messianic return to "real" MMO gameplay.

It was hyped, for ages, as the antithesis of WoW-- a more "hardcore" MMO for players who wanted a "real challenge" and anyone who disagreed, or who didn't drink the Kool-Aid was just an immature WoW kiddie who couldn't handle a real MMO, whatever that meant.

The bad blood over this game started a long time ago, and now, seeing how it has progressed since its beta, there are some who are operating out of a sense of schadenfreude over VG's stumble and fall, and others, like me, who are disappointed that something that had so much promise ended up being such a waste.

It's a shame, really. Vanguard could have been a phenomenal game, since the shell is there for a good MMO, but the execution was just lousy.

 

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3. You don't need 7million subscriptions to say the game is successful.  Possibly 30k plus is enough and its achieved more than that.

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By Brad McQuaid's standards, this game was supposed to have something along the lines of 250-300k subs by the end of the first year, and would eventually go on to around 500k. VG sold, at best, only 200k boxes, and the retention rate has been so poor that they're merging from 13 servers down to 4, with some estimates putting the total playerbase at somewhere around 35-50k.

Using Brad's numbers as a benchmark, this game failed. Using the fact that Sigil was in such bad shape that they were consumed by SOE, with over half of their staff fired in a parking lot, I'd say the game isn't in the best of shape either.

Thanks Lidane.  Regarding the 2nd point I had posted a blog recently that covered this exact point.  (link below).   10 bucks says you can't guess the game! (sarcasm)

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/chryses/062007/118_Tell-us-the-CRAP-and-it-will-set-you-free

Your post is very helpful for a person like myself  who missed all of the hype on VG, Brad etc.  For the past 3 years I lost my soul in a dark dark world called Eve Online.  I literally did not know what was happening elsewhere. So when I saw VG on the shelves I grabbed it, loaded it up and basically enjoyed it.  I can understand the disappointment if people have been watching the news and hype from Brad for the last x years.  In fact I have come across a lot of EVE players in VG so it may be VG has filled that fantasy gap for us pilots.  Its also good timing on SOE's front.  If AoC, WAR and Heroe's were out I probably would have done the rounds and landed on my favourite.  Be that VG or not...

Thanks Urdig for pointing out EQ2.  I am thinking about taking up the option on SWG for variety as well.  Even for a change of scenary.

Before this thread spirals into oblivion (no pun intended).  Can I ask one question.  What are we using as a measuring stick to gauge the success of an MMORPG? 

I see too many posts about how VG is failing and it cant take on the big guns like WOW and probably WAR.   Does that make a difference?  If the game had 50000 subscribers or just 20000 subscribers then SOE could probably sit back and be happy.   It just seems to me that there is a lot of argument over words and points with nothing to benchmark on.  I may be wrong but here are some facts I believe about the game:

1. You either love or hate it.  Everyone has an opinion and we just have to deal with that.  I err on the side of 'almost love'

2. It will never be WOW, WAR or AoC.  So they shouldn't even be mentioned in the same post.

3. You don't need 7million subscriptions to say the game is successful.  Possibly 30k plus is enough and its achieved more than that.

Can someone please give some guidelines on what we are discussing.  E.g. is this a better game than EQ2? etc.  

C

I think the issue for VG and now war, AoC and the rest of the so called, 'big' titles. Is the hype spun prior to release. I can already see forums opening up with.  "War what is it good for? Absolutely nothing because its a POS" and "AoC go screw yourself!"  Then the usual people talking about train wrecks etc. 

I have played VG from release and unlike 90% of the fans out there I hadn't even heard about it before joining.  I was too busy playing EVE Online.  So I have already paid another 6 months because VG for me is different from what I normally play and I really enjoy it.  I can understand how little peeps get so worked up into a hype frenzy and then wonder why the game doesnt live up to their expectations.  You will never see a new release bug free.  Anyone that thinks War and AoC is coming out all polished, slick and fulfilling your wildest wet dreams has another major disapointment coming their way.   Give a game 6 months at least people and then you can start stoning it to death if it is a POS!   BTW in the last 3 weeks I have seen the population increase tremendously on Varking.  Even to the point where I am on GMT time and I still get a group easily enough on the US server.  

Go back 3 years and see all the hate threads on EVE.  Then still tell me it has been a failure.  geesh!

I have been playing EVE for over 3 years now. Just recently having a break to play a fantasy mmo. VG.  Not to get off topic I do like EVE offline skill system and if it wasnt for that I would have stopped years ago.  Its nice to be able to take a month break and not lose experience but  they should include XP for kills etc.

HOWEVER: Right now on my rig I have Jumpgate going.  Its a 5 year old game and the graghics is slightly outdated. However I am enjoying it more than anything else.  Why?  Because the gameplay is great.  Its a space sim and having the adrenalin rush of crashing into roids, stations, other ships etc. is nothing like click, warp, dock.   Having to actually fly in combat is such a buzz no click and point can replace.   So I have been seeking a game just like Jumpgate but with modern graghics, more players and active development.  In the meantime I will get my fix with Jumpgate and at 10 dollars a month its worth playing until Infinity comes out.  In fact if you want to see how a space sim works give it a go.  Drove me nuts initially but now I realise how 2d EVE is.   Please bring this game out.  Besides being different to all the wAR, AoC type games we need a space sim for the hard core privateer, freelancer players out there! 

I bought WOW but never took the plastic off the cover.  I guess I just picked up VG just a couple of days before and thought that I dont want to waste my advanced rig on average graghics in WOW.  I think this will be their biggest issue.  There are a lot of sexy looking games coming out Scifi / fantasy etc.  I feel that when people start really upgrading their rigs they will want to test their system.  However out of 8 million people there will still be a large proportion around the world who can not spend a tonne of cash on a 8800gt or whatever.  So a massive reduction in subs is expected but until hardware is cheap enough there will still be a player base.  In the meantime I will continue to use the unopened box as a book end.

For the record I am a guy and play 50% female and 50% male avatars.  I don't have an issue with my sexuality. However I do find good looking female avatars wielding a double handled axe in pvp just awesome.  Other reasons are...

1. variety.  Considering that 70% + of the population are guys I think it would be unfortunate to see few female avatars.

2. Ego. In pvp there is nothing better than taking down an enemy.  Do it with a female avatar and it just hurts them even more :) You will be surprised how many players get really upset about it.

3.  Probably one of the main reasons are is that I prefer to see the backside of a sexy high elf woman.  Since that is what you see 99% of the time!

4. The most obvious reason. ITS A GAME!!  I take it that every character is a bloke.  Even if they say they are a woman I still don't believe them until I hear them on TS or Vent. 

Girls with weapons......no more needs to be said.

I think it is encouraging that they are still trying to something to this game.  I have come back to this game after 3 years and I find myself ignoring my EVE and Vanguard icon's on my desktop and double clicking Jumpgate.  Plain and simple its the only space game I have found that actually needs a player to do something besides clicking the mouse button.  Fair enough the population has dropped. Even with 80 players in this universe it is better than 1000 madly clicking at skeletons, rats or whatever.  The sub is cheap enough to enjoy it as a solo game regardless.  Either way I will play it again because its fun.  Deep down I think this game is an epic waiting to be picked up. Just needs a bit of updating / advertising and it would be huge. 

I personally think this is a good thing for VG.  I would prefer to see SOE annouce they are making games with puppies rather than develop another fantasy based game.   The reasons I think VG should be ok are:

1: They are trying to entice a new audience and not looking to transfer existing players across.  Thus they must try and keep the current players onboard.  Its possible VG gets more attention as it could be the last fantasy game they develop in the long term possibly ever.

2: The amount of money that has gone into the game must be returned and then some.  The only way they can do this is by continuously improving it, especially the performance.  Also with some monster releases on the horizon they really need to keep / up their game.  There is no way they will spend huge amounts buying out a company then dumping the main project.  It doesn't make commerical sense.

3: They are obviously trying to generate revenue by increasing their player base.  This does not necessarily change anything for their other titles. I may be completely wrong here but would a developer from the VG team work on a pony riding game with fluffy puppies? I would imagine they would get experts in that genre of game...... you know the ones with degrees in puppy love....sicko's

On the player front.  Older players are the better bet for subscribers.  Looking at myself years ago I would play a game then swap over to a new one and cancel my sub.  Now I tend to subscribe and keep the old account because I know I will probably go back and play a bit.  Besides I can afford it.  Also I will tend to stick at a game longer and not jump at the first sign of performance issues or 'something better coming out'.  Its never greener on the other side....

(However I do not suggest that 'younger' people can't afford it, can't stick at it longer etc.  Its a personal account only)

Hey there,

I am watching out for AoC including other upcoming titles and like most fans I am totally confused as to what direction to go.  One element I am trying to find out in all these titles is live content or input of semi-regular events. E.g. NPC raid on a player / NPC city that can only be fought off by dozens of players etc.  I am looking for a game that has events that bring the community together and feels like you make a difference.

Will AoC have any such events? 

Thanks

'A confused gamer' 

I still enjoy VG and even though I hear some of the statements about no soul etc. I still paid 6 months up front even after 3 months of game play. However this probably has more to do with finding a great guild and enjoy grouping up with them on Vent and in-game.

A crucial element of any game.  

Regardless I always give a new game 6-9 months to prove what they can do. I believe VG has a great starting point already and if they manage to tweak, improve and patch correctly it could have huge potential.  For those that say it has poor graghics and art work etc. What game are you playing??   Its the best graghics I have seen in an online game and I have played a lot!  Upgrade your rig or use a friend who has because you are definitely not seeing what I am seeing.

Community equals soul and without that any game including VG has none.

For the record I run the game on mostly high settings with a few options on medium to high. Its still stunning at that level and when I do turn everything on it really is breath taking.  My system is not that huge.  40-60 fps. steady

2x 7600gt 256mb nv, 4400 dual Amd, asus mobo, 2 gig of good ram, good sound card. 

So its probably above average and becoming more maintsream each day.  I see people crying about the crappy graghics on a low setting because they are using 1 gig of ram and a 6600 gt. Either upgrade or don't tell people the graghics is poor. Its not the game its  your rig.

For the record I have seen people using the 8800's and with only 1 gig of ram they do have issues. Ram is essential in this game.

On Varking I have seen the population improve and a lot of loyal fans are there already.  If they launched VG this month they would have kept a huge amount of subs because its pretty stable IMO.  

Developers please tell it real! Dont say minimum requirement is...... when all that will do is get you to the login screen.  The public should know the minimum rig to play the game with nice specs on.  low spec bah! whats the point.

So we all agree that a world needs to be developed so that actions by real players have an effect on how it evolves.  I can see a lot of people saying that by doing this the time + money to make a game should go into the graphics first to draw in the big crowds.  Hey I love eye candy and even I fall into its evil grasp now and then only to find out I have lost 3 months in a fluffy world full of pastel colours with no game content.   I believe that you can have a dynamic world with good graphics and get it out early. 

I like this post as it address's a lot of issues in games today.  I leave a game far before I have explored it due to the community dissolving around me.  So why does the community dissapear?

My thoughts:

* Lack of events that require large parts of the community to come together

* Games with not enough zones to mingle in

* No loyalty to one side or another.

Games are most successful when players feel part of a larger group or race.  Too many games unintentionally promote power leveling thus bringing an end to the game for the players who max out. 

Guilds are a good idea but what I have found as a solo player is that if you want to group its hard to find people who are not tied up with their own guilds etc.  Some games like the older Jumpgate had a good system where there would be a universal announcement of a gate being taken over by a mothership NPC.  I was lucky enough to fly there and be part of a mass fleet killing a mother NPC for the good of all. That was special and something I have not come across again.

Some ideas to draw the larger community together.

* Games within games. Have card games, dice games in taverns or similar.  So players can drop in for a game against strangers. Give a break from combat / crafting and another way to make money.

* NPC raids on large towns, market. Wherever. As long as it requires a large community to defend or fight it off.  A warhorn could sound all hell breaks loose.  Imagine an NPC faction raiding your races town and players / friendly NPC's fighting side by side.  All levels can get involved.

* Tournaments. 1 on 1 and team combat. However you can only use the equipment and weapons the organizers supply.  So its a real slug fest. Crowds can come and watch etc. 

* Special skills you can only administer in person.  Neocrom would have a market square and an implanter could make a good trade by plug-in chips into people's heads.  In fantasy what happened to identify items skill?  Could have identify skill, repair skill, magic buff for items that last 24 hrs whatever.  Have a market square where you could rent out a stall and players have to use your special skill. 

Remove the power leveling frenzy and bring in events / actions that require a larger player base to get involved. That way even if I was an lvl 50 knight and had capped. I would be inclined to play on if I felt I could stand in the fray of a raid and help those less powerful.  Also some wackier ideas could be to have NPC auctions.  They show a special item and a ticker goes down from 1 minute. You can bid as much as you want until timer runs out.  However item has a minimum price to avoid cheating.   These can be held around the world and announced in advance and real time.  I would love to see 10-100 players in an auction all bidding madly. 

Basically developers need to work on community events and less on grind options. 

I believe pvp should be allowed anywhere.  If you cant attack someone in a certain location then it makes mocks the whole pvp concept.  I play Vanguard currently and I actually like the fact that an enemy player can sneak up and kill me when crafting. It makes me concentrate and keep me on my toes. However....

I believe that players should be able to help develop / encourage player made or NPC builds that would make it increasingly difficult for enemy raids.  Not only have builds like towers going up etc.  Include some way to help spawn more NPC guards that will in turn protect the community.   This will help develop a sense of achievement when you finally build up a strong enough defence or alternatively have a successful raid against heavy fortification. 

EVE-Online has a good system I feel. You can attack anyone anywhere but with NPC guarded regions you are pretty much toast if you hit someone.  Still realistic enough.

I never understood online games wtihout pvp.  There are dozens of great single player titles that give you so much more.