Originally posted by Terranah

There are many facets to a game.  PVP, PVE, Crafting, RP, Story/lore, Exploration/Adventure.

 

This game does well in Story/lore, but in every other area besides pve it lacks excellence and distinction from other games.  What they need to do from here on is start filling in the conspicuously absent features in a steady and timely manner.  So far they seem to be moving rather slowly compared to some mmo dev teams I have seen, but not all devs are created equally so...

 

Dedicated pvp crowd is probably not a majority type of mmo player but they are a strong, dedicated and fanatic player base.  Games need that kind of enthusiasm.

 

RP crowd is also probably not a majority of mmo player, but again very dedicated and very passionate about the games they love.

 

Crafting also has it's very strong followers, and people who love to craft will invest a lot of time and energy into games.

 

Exploration/adventure is about making the world a compelling place.  And surprisingly for an IP that you think would be amazing in this regard it isn't.  The world designs are mediocre at best, lot of walls and corridors and you get stuck in cracks and holes or in some cases fall through the world.  The worlds feel static and dead and erily silent. Nothing surprises, nothing takes your breath away.  Big empty cities. 

 

They need to start working faster and harder.  Once I hit max I just don't see any compelling reason to continue.

 

I agree with this 100%. 

I feel they have a solid start but really need to start rolling out MMO features.  e.g. wandering monsters or rare items for people who take the time to explore etc etc.  There is a nice core there but it gets pretty dry if you even contemplate stepping off the single player path.

@ the last post.  Cant agree more. 

However I think SWTOR making a ton of cash is a good thing because investors will look at the industry favourably as they can see how much money it can generate. 

What we need now is a company to realise a gap in the market and make a sandbox AAA that will be a massive success, then I guess we will see a ton of them come out.

If Bioware even went 20% sandbox, this game could have been epic. 

They just played it very very very safe with SWTOR 

I never understood all the grief AoC got.  The graphics is still the best in the industry and it has a realistic feel about it and the combat gore makes everything else look childish.  There are some great missions in the game at all levels and once you master a character (especially assassin) its pretty rewarding. 

As a free game its unbelievable. 

 Originally posted by Loke666

Just relax, TOR is not a bad game but I kinda doubt that it will keep those players for more than a few months the way it is made.

Other MMOs that use different mechanics are on the way and I think a few of them will seel very well.

I just don´t see TOR being able to go head on head Vs GW2 and Class 4. TOR is just too much like a single player game and those are very fun for a while but usually lose it's magic when you max out 2 characters.Adding Wow style raiding to the concept just ain´t enough.

It is far more important that a different game succeds than a game like TOR fails, the publishers needs proof that other types of games can sell well, not that current style MMOs womt.

The only thing TORs failure would tell investors would be that the genre isn´t worth the risk, and that would be bad, M'OKAY?

I have to agree with this post actually.  Looking at my gaming history, its unusual that I am playing SWTOR and enjoying it.  However Star Wars was the first film I had ever seen back in the 70's and the lore is something that has added a lot of weight to this game.

There is a big HOWEVER though.  I am playing the game like a single player game and once I get through the main storyline for 2-3 characters I wont stick around at all. 

The only way I can describe it, is like going to a real life theme park and its the best one I have ever gone to.  So I spending most of the time running between all the new rides but once I have tried them all I may return once a year.

I try not to think what this game could have been, as its too depressing.  A sandbox Star Wars game would kill my RL anyway.

I personally feel that they should have individual storylines up to level 10 and then you decide which side you join... They could have made it so much more sexy.

But hey, its a great single player game :)

Originally posted by Ozmodan

I think many of you are missing the point.  A game does not have to be a grind, yet can be a entertaining sandbox.  When you get away from the dumb class/level system and go to a more realistic skill system you can extend play for much longer periods of time.  Take for example Eve, there are more skills than anyone could ever learn, you have to specialize which can easily be done in a month or two, yet if you want to diversify it can take quite some time to collect all the skills you need.  

In Eve everything is made in game, only the most basic commodities are available from NPCs.  So resources are important.  The economy is based on the players, not who got which drop.  Crafting is a huge business in Eve.

Eve has many avenues to get those resources.  Eve's biggest disappointment for me is the extremely boring mining design.  Someday CCP will realize that needs to change because most people just give up and bot.  Eve would be better off incorporating SWTOR's design of underlings who mine for you.  Resource collection should never be tedious.

This could easily be translated into a fantasy setting.  Asheron's Call, while it had levels was really a skill based system.  You had to choose what to specialize in.  There was no resource collection in that game per se, yet  the real crafting was based around enhancing drops which were in essence it's form of resource collection.

One of these days these theme park designers are going to realize the great benefit of a skill driven system.  With enough skills you can keep people hooked for years, not months.  The trick with a skill based system is to allow the low skiil point players to be competitive in pvp in a short period of time.  I think CCP has done a very good job in this area.

Housing is another area, that if done right, can keep players in a game.  Two games that really excelled with housing was UO and SWG because housing was not instanced based, but in the actual player worlds.  Player built cities in SWG was an amazing accomplishment.  

A successful game that keeps players playing in any genre could be done using the following:  A deep skill system that keeps players interested in the game that has set skill training times that increases the higher you go and are not limited to playtime.  The economy must be player based and be very varied.  Resource collection must be fun and not tedious.  Pvp balance is important, nothing must be allowed to be overpowering.  Factions are important in a pvp respect and must be more than 2.   Housing based in the actual player world is important, instanced based housing is just not near as interesting.

I think a game designed around the principles above can retain players for a long period of time and keep them entertained.  There is no rush to end game in a game like this, you cannot speed up skills by playing more.  This attracts the casual player as well as the hardcore ones.

I agree on the EvE thing totally. 

The one thing that really got me about that game is that you know if you play long enough you can learn absolutely everything.  But that is around 6 years of subbing and that is why that model works well.

When I got bored with EVE I decided to try exploration.  6 months later I was back into the game with exploration skills etc etc.

I have no idea why the bigger companies don't look at CCP for insipiration.  People are dedicated to that game for years not months.

Maybe the real question isn't about slowing down leveling but giving more options 'outside' of leveling.  I look back at all the MMO's I have played and why I subbed to some for 4 weeks and others for 6months - 6 years.

All the MMO's I stuck with gave me other options besides leveling.  Vanguard kept me going for 6 months due to crafting and house building.  EvE kept me going for 6 years and mostly around trading and manufacturing.  Fallen Earth kept me going for 12 months because of crafting etc.

I judge an MMO on what I can do outside of leveling and I think that is the key here, not slowing leveling down.

Originally posted by Homitu

I can't tell if this is a TOR fan trying to promote the game or a troll trying to hate on the game.

lol, why is everything a conspiracy...

seriously, I just liked the graphics in this particular part of the game.  As some posts have said I should remove the interface and save in better quality.  MPOG obviously strip the pictures to make them easier to load.  In game graphics is actually pretty nice IMO.

Neither troll or fanboi. Just a gamer showing some screenies :)

I was just messing around with taking screenshots today.  For those that haven't seen max settings these are taken maxed out.

Some city shots inside and out with some scenary from the taxi service you take between areas.  The companion is the one without a helmet.

Its my wife's character which is a Bounty Hunter.

Originally posted by Timukas

I think that problem are rabid fanbois who shouted down everyone who dared to be express even the smallest concerns. Other than that I think that SWTOR is a good game, if not one of the best we currently have (and if you are sick of orcs and elves then there isn't almost no choice at all). Maybe TSW and GW2 will be better, we'll see. But maybe MMO genre is just fucked and needs a reset.

Personally I'd love an MMO without levels (skill based like TSW) because it's bloody annoying leveling out your good gear every day like in SWTOR. 

Spot on.  

I agree entirely with this article. I am one of those players that loves the journey and not interested in the end content at all.  However I am a sandbox lover at heart but I don't min theme park when done well.

I have this problem with almost all MMO's.  I hate seeing my missions (some which I want to do) turn grey and then I just have to cancel because I can't seem to level slow. 

I don't want an XP decrease so you have to kill 20 rats instead of 10 but more content that takes time to complete but its ok if its half decent.  Alternatively, games like vanguard have a nice system of crafting having its only levelling process. I enjoyed that.

I agree, I think it will tank.  However I don't think AoC is that bad a game.  In fact if it was launched in its current state today it would be pretty solid.  Graphics is still up there as the best or close to it.  Combat is still unique as well as the gore.

The reason I think this game will go nowhere is more of a social one.  I would like to think I am interested but I just can't get into it.  Its world seems unique and it will be different to anything out there as far as lore. However, all I have seen from games that try and experiment is that they have a massive uptake because its different then the masses move on. 

We would all like to think we are mature enough to try a completely new game / lore in an MMO but the reality is, it will only be a flash in the pan. 

I question how people will become attached to their characters, the world, cause to fight etc etc. 

I have nothing against the game, just don't think it has longevity.

Originally posted by headphones

here's another way of looking at swtor:

it's in no way shape or form an mmo. you really have to admit that. sure, it has some of the features, but the strict linear structure (more strict even than wow imo), substandard ah (ever tried to find something when you're not quite sure what stupid category it might be in? and you have to troll through pages of stuff to browse. can't just browse "helmets" or "chest slots"... i mean, really?), tacked-on pvp, and the way it seems to push you away from playing with other players outside of flashpoints seems to me to put it squarely into the rpg genre more than the mmo.

given this, if you rate it as an rpg game, how would you rate it?

the environment is flaccid and dead. the npcs just window dressing. nothing moves. i mean, NOTHING moves. the "creatures" on the side of the road are there just to break up monotony. there's no attempt to create a vibrant, living world.

compare, then, to skyrim, and this doesn't rank high in the rpg department other than having a multiplayer option for a few dungeons...

the "story" concept is a wonderful addition to the modern mmo. but, i feel in this case bioware took it just a little too far and ended up so far off the mmo road that i don't see how they're going to drag this one back without at least a few large expansions and modifications to their game mechanics. in their enthusiasm to provide a great story and quest-delivery mechanism, they forgot they were making an mmo.

all the same, i don't feel it fails. i feel it instead sets both a benchmark and a warning.

gw2, for example, will have its "personal story" elements compared to swtor. that's going to be tough for them. swtor's choices CAN sometimes amuse you and surprise you. can gw2 live up to that?

the flipside is the warning: don't spend so much time on your personal stories that you forget the game itself.

I think this post sums it up pretty well.  I also have a feeling that SWTOR got carried away with glossing up the voice overs etc.  Think about how much work has gone into the voices and animations for the hundreds of missions...mind blowing. 

However along the way the massive open world which should be an MMO is kinda lost.  I do love some of the scenary and I find myself going 'wow look at that' but its like flicking through a photo album.

I know I will get my monies worth but I hope they do something dramatic like set up a neutral world which both sides can fight over and let players buy land or whatever to bring it back to a good MMO. 

I will happily level up a few stories and then probably jump on to something else because I personally have given up on an MMO I can stick with long term.

Originally posted by Bladestrom

Originally posted by MMOExposed
Is it just me, or did Bioware live up to everything they said they would?

I know the game was majorly hyped up. And manynpeople seem disappointed, But really,, was this hype by Bioware or the Fans? Maybe EA?

to me it seems like Bioware lived up to what they said they would. I never understood the hype. The hype mainly was off of the brand-name of the developers (Bioware) and Voice Overs and th IP.... That was it...
Bioware did all of this. They didn't over hype anything here. Everything here is just what they advertised. They didn't pull a Warhammer(ironic I know), nor did they pull a Darkfall kind of launch move.

so why are you disappointed?

 People are not dissapointed at the hype they are dissapointed at the game, for £200+ million  you would expect something amazing , jawdropping , innovative , next generation.  You describe in green above what they actually released, A dull mmorg saved by a great IP, and some single player centric voice overs, dull.

 Hard to believe is it  not, 1/4 - 1/2  a BILLION pounds over 6 YEARS and thats what they create.  Best result could indeed have been a next generation themepark that would have blown everyone away and been the new benchmark in the mmorg world, it should have been with that investment and the IP. 

 

 

Actually I think they have created some new benchmarks. I don't know about other people but when I have returned to other MMO's, I am kinda freaked out that I get a wall of text for my missions from (mostly) rigid NPC's staring off into the void.  On most occassions I am talking to the back of their heads.  Regardless of what people think of the game.  They have added some pretty slick improvements (taxi rides that on the whole are actually awesome to watch, I know some other games have things that are similar).  Making choices on what you will say creates an identity of your character and there are some great smack talk moments.  I also think the companion model is the best in the industry.  I actually care about my companion and it feels like I have 2 characters not one.  Other games the companion is a lifeless pixel whore that does nothing or adds something stupid like a 1% buff.  I think its awesome that, when I feel like it, I can have my companion tank while I give support. 

Even though space ships / combat is not the main theme of this game.  I applaud them for making a spaceship a place to be.  I would like to see more options or allow people on your ship but lets face it.  WTF were other games like Star Trek thinking about not doing this exact thing. 

Although a lot of this may not be 'ground breaking', it does set a new benchmark on features all MMO's have.

I have played SWTOR for about a month now and I am glad that I bought the game.  However, I do feel slightly guilty as I am enjoying it a lot as a single player and sometimes I even forget I am in a massive online universe.

I will play through a few story lines but there is that nagging thought in my mind about what to do at the end.

SWTOR has just been launched, I get that. 

But for me to keep playing I need to feel that there is something bigger going on and that I can somehow affect the other side.

Right now besides the single story line, it doesn't feel like we are playing for a side or that we can really affect our enemies.

Looking at Vanguard and the train wreck it was from launch.  Friends and I still enjoyed going on a long trip just to run amock in an enemy city and basically feel like we are fighting for something.  Even in WAR (I personally hated the game) you know you are in the middel of war and you want to fight.  EVE online...enough said.

In SWTOR I need to see some reason to fight and feel like I am fighting for a cause.  It could be in the form of buffs (imagine logging on as a noob and seeing a small buff because some level 50's had a good day bashing the other side) or battles over resource zones or even control points that allow entry to neutral planets.

Something has to be done in this space otherwise it will only be a good single player game online and one that people will leave once finished.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by chryses

 

 

EVE is massively instanced but they are very clever and hide it in the form of a jumpgate.  SciFi games are a lot easier to hide loading screens.  Don't forget that every station and sector is an instance.

BTW I am a big EVE fan.

Is that really an instance? I would consider those zones.

I always think of instances as private areas for you or your party and that's about it. Now, there might be several "instances" of a zone (eq2) but I think when people talk about instances they are talking about the world in GW or SWToR's storied zones or Raid Bosses for some of the more modern games where your raid is the only group in the instance.

It seems to me EVE just uses zones.

Good point, I stand corrected. You are right, there are no areas that you are limited to which people can't access at the same time. 

My first gut instinct is video card.  Freezes, splits across the screen and anything like that is video card normally.

I thought it might be power supply but if it is you tend to get reboots not freezes and your Power supply is big enough to handle that rig. 

If you can try and borrow or use an old video card and see if the error occurs again. Alternatively I would make sure the drivers are up to date.  I have had some weird video issues and, I know they say it, but I updated my drivers and it worked fine after that.

Hope you get it sorted.

Originally posted by ShakyMo

Originally posted by Snaylor47

Originally posted by ShakyMo

Originally posted by Snaylor47

Originally posted by tillamook

Originally posted by Fratman

On a related note, could TOR be considered the most instanced mmo ever? The "open world" zones and capital cities are instanced, you have instanced pve and pvp, countless "story areas" that are instances, and a single player space shooter. 

 

Well at one time that title was called EQ2, but TOR has it beat by a long shot.

 there are a lot of MMOs that use more instancing then TOR (if by instancing you mean loading screens) Worlds in TOR are simular to WoW  in openness.

LOL   -  NAME THEM

Of the MMOs I have experiance with GW1 and EvE used instancing often. So thats three including EQ2 that used them a lot. WoW too actually used them in the form of tunnels from one zone to another and EvE with the whole hyperspace thing. COX used them too.

LOL EVE is more instanced than SWTOR?!?!?!  what the hell :D

I'm no WOW fan but wow is considerably more open world than SWTOR, ditto COX

GW1 hmm yeah fair point, but GW1 isn't a MMO its CORPG, it doesn't charge you like a MMO either

EVE is massively instanced but they are very clever and hide it in the form of a jumpgate.  SciFi games are a lot easier to hide loading screens.  Don't forget that every station and sector is an instance.

BTW I am a big EVE fan.

Originally posted by cmorris975

I love non-linear gameplay.  I can handle instances here and there but I prefer public zones the danger of PvP.  Do you think I might enjoy SWTOR?  Or is it too scripted?

 

Thanks for your opinion!

 

Chris

Like you I prefer non linear gameplay but I am enjoying SWTOR as I also like star wars a lot and its nice playing around in the lore a bit.

I might get flamed for this but SWTOR feels more like a open world PS3 game.  It has the illusion of being open and free roaming but really its like going through a sausage machine.  No point going off track unless you are a pixel whore and want to check out every piece of art.

In saying that I can't work out why they don't promote exploration.  There are dozens of places with multiple rooms etc.  Unfortunatey its becomes quite apparent 99% of the time that there is no point visiting them.  I would hope they would promote and reward people who go off path.

Originally posted by UsualSuspect

I've mentioned this on general discussion on the solo vs group play thread. People seem fine with this whole solo through the game idea, some people seem to actively want it, but I simply can't understand why. There are thousands upon thousands of single player games, when I pick up an MMO I expect to have a different style of game than if I was playing alone. Surely, that's the whole point of playing an MMO, so you can interact with other people, join them for difficult quests and raids, share encounters, battle through tough dungeons together. If I can run through this stuff alone, what's the point of making it an MMO in the first place?

It's the support for this sort of design I don't understand, especially on a forum dedicated to MMO's. This whole single player design is just watering down the MMO genre until it barely even resembles an MMO anymore. To the OP, I voted for better designed content, make the players need each other a lot more, create ways they need to work together, and create some quests that aren't just, "Fight through mobs. Click glowing object. Return.".

I like your post, well thought out.

To reply to some of your statements.  I actually like an MMO that supports solo play.

- An MMO should be designed for player of all sorts and I personally like the freelancer, privateer type character type. 

- I love a good auction house and I need a community to do that also.

A good MMO should have both blends.  I did a lot of solo play in EVE but with that came the knowledge that there were massive wars going on and rare metals I could really not get to unless I was in a large group.  This is a good MMO IMO.  Because a small fish can get on with their game but if you really want the sexy big stuff then you really need a big group.  Other MMO's that force grouping tend to die quickly as a large number of gamers can't afford to stand around screaming LFG for hours on end, time is valuable especially for gamers who are married and/or have kids. 

I feel slightly responsible for this type of behaviour since I have 2 kids and another on the way. My gaming time is limited so I tend to play games like this which are soloable.  I would love to group but just can't commit.

However I am always helping out in chat and answering questions etc.  I have had some pretty decent discussions with people in this MMO but there is a difference from playing on the PvE server vs PvP.  to be expected though.