I was there for the launch of WoW and it was nothing close to being called a smooth launch. It was more bumpier than the road outside my house, which has about 30 potholes. Lotro had a smooth launch only because there servers were live before there actual launch date, allowing pre-orders to get a little ahead. But before than, mostly in open beta is when they had alot of server issues that they immediatly fixed. So all in all they didnt really have that great of a launch because they never really launched anything. The most smoothest launch to date and as even been talked about by developers of other companys was Dark Age of Camelot. There only downfall was some zones were crashing, but you could still login and play. And it also was fixed almost immediatly. THis is why so many people are clamming over WAR. Because they know WAR will be nothing short of an excellent launch as long as EA is 300 miles away and let Mythic do the job.

Mostly everyone, and everyone is pretty much the same thing. Seeing as mostly everyone doesn't agree with you, were do you get these facts from? Oh wait, i know. From people who post. You tend to not realise, just because people dont post on a forums board, they must not be a fan of star trek. When in fact, alot of star trek fans most likely dont even know of an mmo coming out for it. And won't till they see the movie and the ad's that are suppose to follow. Convention wise there are alot. Anywere from public conventions supported by big name sponsers to small organized events. Apparently you dont go to any of these. And just to let you know, everything you stated in your reply is your opinon, and yours alone. Some may agree with you and some may not, but its no were near most of the community. And the trek community goes beyond forums boards. All i was asking Oracle to do, was reflect his own opinon, and not put the community as a whole into his statement. Because as you can see, its not widely supported. And seeing as i consider myself part of the trek community, as i am a fan, then im pretty much correct.

And just to show you that there are alot of conventions still going on that are either star trek related or have trek fans at, here ya go

http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/community/conventions.html

And thats only a small number of sponsered ones. And to get back on topic, STO won't fail if it does get released. People will buy it. Shoot even i bought some of the mediocre games they have out that I never play. But i bought them. Why you ask? Because im a person who gives everything a chance. And sometimes even 2. But until STO comes out and i try it, im giving them my support. Why because i want a good mmo to play. And with the lack of good mmo's out there that offer diversity from the normal fantasy, this one shines bright with something im more into.

Fin, you clearly love to requote post's dont ya. First off did you even read what I stated. If you did you would of clearly noticed I stated his wording as his mistakes. Meaning the way he phrase's things like "everyone" when not "everyone" agrees. Im not wrong about anything I said. Yes there are an anormous amount of trek fans. This can easily be seen just by attending a trek convention. Yeah there probably isn't millions, but there is alot. As for your veiws on what Paramount did with the Star Trek IP, those are your veiws. I liked all the star treks. Does that make my opinon wrong. Of course not. I love how you go from this forum board to that forum board, trying to get people to listen to your veiws as if we should agree and nothing else. What you dont seem to realise is not everyone shares your veiw and no matter how hard you try to push it, some people will just not care. As for what Oracle stated, those are also his opinons. I only commented on the fact that just like you, he also thinks his veiw is shared by everyone. I could say everyone likes peanuts, but then that would be a lie, wouldn't it? Anyways go ahead and quote me again, you know you want to. :)

The first new innovative mmo (next-gen), will have to break away from the normal. Since World of Warcrafts release, most companies are either trying to cash in on WoW bucks by trying to add one new thing to the WoW model. Or they are trying to make something innovative just to find out that they are doing exactly what I posted before this line of sentence. For a company to make something that would consider a next-gen mmo, they have to jump outside the box. And i mean way outside. They have to reform the idea on what people consider an mmorpg and do something drastic. The only companies that can afford to do this are big companies like Blizzard and Bioware. But will they? As of now prolly not. Why you ask? Most likely because people are still use to the old model. Or simply that they know the old model can make it. I doubt any independent or indie company will come out with anything innovative. If anything they will become followers like the trend shows. But if I was going to point out one company that I think could make the next-gen game it would be Blizzard. They not only have the money, they have the staff. The also have some of the top programmers in the business. Two IPs they already own could turn into next-gen mmo's if they wanted to. Diablo and Starcraft. Both of which have something innovative lying just underneath them.

But to be brutally honest, a company I would love to see make an MMO and bring something new to the table would be ID Software. They have prolly the most well known, and talented programmers in the world, John Carmack working for them. It would just be simply amazing to see what kind of MMORPG engine he could muster up. He pretty much shaped the FPS scene with games like Doom and Quake. I could only imgaine what he could come up with MMO wise. Imagine a Doom MMO, or even Quake. Both have huge storylines and could be made into something unreal. If they want out of the box, then ID definatly is a company that can give that.

First off, TheOracle1 you really dont need to type with huge text. Regardless of the size, your idea isnt shared with everyone. You stated only sto.net moderators support PE, well your wrong as im neither. I love it when people go off on tangent, quoting and stating everything as they are the community and that everyone is thinking the same thing. I would give you a second chance to re-type what ever it is your talking about, but since you can't give PE that then I must flame you. Stop with the garbage talk about STO not succeding. You admitingly are not a trek fan therefore what does it matter to you. And please for the love of christ be somewhat coherant when typing. No one understands your gibberish when you talk like you just came out of pre school. And dont get this confused with spelling grammar, im talking about your wording. Anyways STO will survive, even if PE does produce. Face the facts man, you are not bigger then the tens of thousands of millions of trek fans out there. And no one has lost faith in PE, atleast no one i care about. Only you! :( 

Have you tried Zu Online yet? By far the best f2p imo, and has tons of content. Even in alpha stages it beats p2p games in alot of aspects. Remember that it is alpha and they have not got all the text filtered to English. And to be honest, with the cell shaded graphics, it almost feels like I should be paying for it. It also has other ways of leveling in game via events and in-game quizzes that reward xp. Once all of the systems are in they will have kool things like player owned mansions were you can hire merchants and all sorts of things. You can even have diety quest merchants. Also they have a pet system that allows you to actually walk pets. And for being cell shaded like Okami from playstation 2, it just has a addictive nature. There crafting system is a mix of the standered american color system and rank system from korean games. Its pretty nice and seems to go real well. Anyways heres the addy

http://zu.igg.com , usually hold alpha key events all the time.

Also note that the pets in-game are mounts that provide bonus's to you when you level them. Not only can you level them but you can ride them. And not just by yourself, at higher levels they have pets that when mounted can ride 2 people. So leave you wife at home, and come find a new girl. :)

Heh reading the mythos site now. Seems pretty similar indeed. Might have to check out this game, once i get a invite that is. Do you got to be a HGL forum member or no?

Nice Reveiw. But I gotta ask this, for what? You just basically stated that this game is in bad terms, even while sliding around it. So what would make me spend 40 bucks to help them improve this game? Im sure everyone appreciates your willingness to help this community thrive, if there is one. But there comes a time when you just need to let things go. I for one didnt even know this game was out so that goes to show you why there is so little population in the game. I doubt the devs for this game will ever fix what needs to be fixed nor care if it ever gets fixed. As you stated this game was a hobby, and you are most likely correct. You should instead invest your time in finding out if they have plans to take on another game. Then if you value your money in your pocket, move the other direction. Either way, good luck with what ever comes about this game, just wanted to talk with you from an outsiders perspective.

The writer for the diablo books has already written the 3rd installment. He even made a comment about it in a news post (if only I could find it) that he couldnt invision it not being put into another diablo game. He even talked about a supposive movie coming out dealing with what he had written. Also note some other things that look rather odd. One being that Steig Hedlund was the lead designer of Diablo 1 and 2 and until last month was employed at Perpetual Entertainment. Hmm wonder were he is now.

Yes some of the blizzard north team is working on Hellgate London but not all (and by the quality of the game, not the best ones neither.) Some of them split over to Arena.net and Guildwars. As for Diablo 3 making a comeback, most likely. Why wouldnt it? You can go ask any blizzard employee if they think blizzard would gain from another diablo game and everyone will say YES without even thinking about it. Alot of rumors tend to say that they already have a small staff writing the next diablo game. With blizzard being so secretive I dont doubt it. Also not there was a video published quite sometime ago right after the expansion came out for Diablo 2 showing off what would seem like a 3d version of Diablo 3.

Everyone thought it was World of Warcraft, but it turns out it was not. Now the video has simply vanished. If blizzard does come out with another diablo, it will be around the same time they come out with the movie which has pretty much been announced. So if your waitng on diablo 3, you will prolly hear something about it when you start seeing them talk about the movie, probably at the next blizzcon.

What the OP doesn't realize is WoW looks like every other game before its time. The only people who compare this game to WoW, are the same people started playing mmo's with WoW as there first. If not then they must not have any ounce of common sense. What you see in WAR battleground wise is a direct comparison of DaoC. A game that came about quite sometime before WoW. If you go and play DaoC till 50 then look at WAR, you will almost think your looking (or atleast reading) about the same game minus the graphics. Seriously, this crap about how this looks like this and that needs to stop. Who really cares? Peopel are going to play it regardless of what some mmorpg forum member states so stating it is a moot point. People should instead say this game looks like every other MMORPG because atleast that would make somewhat of sense. So start here, if you played WoW as your first MMORPG, then go play a preceding one. Then come ehre and talk about how it looks just like that game and not WoW and you will see how stupid this crap is getting. EVERY MMORPG PLAYS ABOUT THE SAME, and the ones that don't only get lost in the shuffle, so get over it.

And how many fans from SWG do you think will play KOTOR and compare it? Without any official conformation, are you to say Bioware will have full control over this game, when EA just bought them and Pandemic out? And if so how will this influence KOTOR? As stated I didnt say KOTOR wont have tons of players, nor will it be a great game. I more so meant the company as a whole in its now state. And that just because Bioware is making a Star Wars mmo, that it will have no effect on a Star Trek MMO since they prodominatly have different crowds. And the veiws about STO.net and PE are self explanatory. And to be brutally honest, with the whole NGE issue that happened with SWG, whos to say Bioware will do it different. Bioware has produced some great games, but to consider it a downfall on a game that has no relation to it is a moot point. And just because Daron stated that, doesn't mean it cannot or will not change. Everyone thought GnH WAS coming out due to it being sold in pre order boxes, yet that didnt happen. Veiws due change, and with them being under new investors, im sure they will play a part in what STO will have and not have as its there money being invested and they want quality regardless of who it is.

Its sad to hear that you think yet another Star Wars MMO will ruin a Star Trek MMO. DO you even realize how many trekkies are out there? This is not to say PE will make a good star trek mmo or to say there isnt alot of star wars fans, but seriously do you know how many trekkie fans are out there? Also note, nowadays more and more people are playing more than just one mmo. I dont see how Star Wars will have any impact on a Star Trek mmo since there really isnt a star trek moo out and Star Wars KOTOR will always have a comparison out there. I understand you hate towards PE with the recent debakle of GnH but since they did can a game before it came out, atleast you didnt have to pay 50 bucks for a half ass game like most companies make you do. And I hate to tell ya but in no way does STO.net try to back PE. They are just really optimistic and dont judge people based off one downfall. Its called second chances. Something everyone deserves atleast once. In no way was GnH a bad game, it had alot of potential, but ran short of cash flow and involvement. If you read some of the latest reveiws out by people who were IT testers then you can see it was not as bad as a game as some of the people who wrote if off as a WoW clone.

Understandbly though its your opinon. Now on the issue of Bioware. With the latest development of EA buying it, and EA's reputation, and the fact that GnH had ex-EA employess, one being Chris Mckibbin. I would go to say that KOTOR wont be all that and a bag of chips. Especially if they use the PEP Platform software which is IE certified garbage. Just to let ya know, i was an internal core tester for GnH and had many issues with there platform software and its bugs. But game-wise, they had a sound idea. As stated though, the development and cash fell short. So all in all, in my OWN opinon, star wars kotor will have no effect on star trek since is prodominatly different fan bases. Gj increasing your post count though. :)

Blah Tibia, i could barely look at that game, much play it. Anyways my top 3 games for f2p and p2p that you might like are:

Free to Play

• Twelve Sky - Nicely put together game but does not have alot of questing involved.
• Talisman Online - Camera veiw like Titans Quest, but gameplay and basically everything else screams WoW for free. Has limited quest's after 25 that give you appropriate xp. Still in open test phase.
• RF Online - Just went f2p not to long ago. Is a decent game through and through. Has some downfalls here and there but its one of those games that keeps you coming back for some odd reason.

Pay to Play

• Dark Age of Camelot - My favorite mmo of all time. Decent graphics for its time and has the best all around gameplay. Its RvR has received numerous appraises.
• Vangaurd - Although this game has alot of emptyness, its still a decent game. Only problem is I had more fun creating characters then actually playing them. I did manage to get a necro to 46 though only to find out that the end game is quite lonely.
• Lotro - Only thing I liked about this game was its nicely put together crafting system. So if you and you lady want to be craft botters, then there ya go.

There is also some games that are decent fillers like Titans Quest which has a diablo feel with a Battle.net type server system. Also note hellgate london. I would have something good to say about hellgate london but I dont and thats just that. :)

If you dont mind waiting awhile and want to use one of those games as a filler, then I would check out possibly The Chronicles of Spellborn or Stargate Worlds Online. Two very unique games that im sure are going to take a nice chunk out of the WoWinator before WAR comes out. TCoS actually looks like the best game Ive seen put together in awhile but until open beta comes out, only time will tell. Hope this helps and just enjoy whatever you guys play together and remeber its only a game. Even if your owning her butt in a 1v1 pvp battle. :)

Seeing as beta has not started for STO, how would anyone know other than checking out the development articles and looking at the art. PE wont hurt STO in no way, shape or form. I see it as being hilarious that you guys hate PE decision making for not putting out GnH. If you beta tested it you would know why they stopped making it. It was a very unfinished product and needed alot of work in a short amount of time with no cash. STO has always had more potential then GnH but they really wanted to come out with a starter game. Ask me this question. Did you really expect PE to put out GnH in its condition? If soo then would you of been the same person who comes here to whine about a shooty game that is beyond broken? All these remarks about PE taking STO and ruining it are moot points. Until we see a product or a video atleast then you really cant judge it, can you? No matter what anyone thinks, they did the right thing. And they will do the right thing with STO. If not then you wont see it because PE wont allow you pay money for garbage. If only more companys saw it this way, maybe some of the people who played games like VG or HGL wouldnt of had to spend 60 bucks on nothing. This is how I see it, id rather them waste there millions developing the game just to find out it sucks and not release it, then me pay 50 bucks for it. My 50 bucks is > than their 5 mil.

When Blizzard changes it EULA, or makes changes to it you always know. How? Because you have to agree to it again. When do these changes occur usually? Its marked on the EULA. How would i know its changed? Changes are made and put into play usually the next update, were when you log in you have to resign the agreement. So what was your point again demon? As far as I can see, and am pretty sure. If EA changes the EULA, it will be during a patch and you will have to resign it. I have never played a game that changed a EULA without you knowing it or atleast making you resign it.

Just wanted to also mention that this game does not have the full staff that previously worked on Blizzard's Diablo series. The lead designer for the diablo series works with Perpetual Entertainment (Steig Hedlund) and alot of what i consider the major other players work with Arena.net. It seems to me Flagship is using the "creators of Diablo" just to market a game, when they really didn't create as much as people think. This is not to say that they dont have ex-diablo series people. Just not what I consider to be the major players, but then again I could be wrong, just wanted to mention this little fact. Anyways, I really wanted to pre-order and get this game. But after I read that this game will have in-game advertising and possible ad-ware, I decided not to. Its sad to see EA owning yet another game. Is it just me or is everything EA touching turning to crap. They better not screw up WAR, although I doubt Mythic would let that happen. Seriously, can you guys imagine WAR with in-game advertisement. Weaksauce!

So what was the point of the thread? It's funny how you asked people to help you with your list, yet bash them after they post. What are you 6. Only reason im reading this ridiculous post is because im bored. And apparently so is the op, since he can't manage to know where games come from. Arena.net is an american based company. If you can't see that then you need to go back to geography. I dont see how you read seattle based company, and get its an asian game. Just because the have NCsoft teams working with them does NOT make them korean based game. Thats like saying 3 mexicans work at taco bell, so it must be real mexican food. Seriously though, this thread should just stop. Apparently the op made a thread to bash you once you posted a game, so whats the point of helping him. If you cant figure out a good game then go play atari and start all over. Game, set, point!

Have you even read any of the dev journals? Im not here to mock you but it sounds like you havent. Also name 5 people on PE's staff that came from blizzard. If you can I will give you your props. If you cannot, then why talk about it like you know what your talking about.

The 2 main people of f the development team that produced GnH are as follows along with there previous company.

Steig Hedlund - Lead Designer for the diablo series.

Chris Mckibbin - Executive Producer from EA. (not 100% sure about his title but he was from EA

And tons of developers from titles like UO, Asherons Call and some other EA games. So were are these full stafers from blizzard. You must be thinking of games like Guildwars(arena.net), Hellgate:London, and Red 5 or Flag Studios(future mmo to come but has the co founder of Blizzard on there staff). Its not hard to find this info. There is google. Im suprised about how many people post on these boards just to raise there post count, and never really do there homework. 

Btw sorry for the double post. My apoligies. 

Mr. Op, I also did play beta. Just because some people did not like it doesnt mean everyone feels the same way. You apparently have no clue what the game was like, and if you value a couple of kiddies who played a game and wanted more than WoW as your opinon then so be it. I see games for what they are. My hopes are not low because of my statement about STO. Its just a pure fact that regardless of the quality of the game, it will sell based off its IP. How would I know how well its going to be. You act like ive already played it which I havent for the obvious reason. You also act like money isnt what makes a company. Blizzard clearly showed that it is about money. Thats all everything is about. As they say, money is what makes the world go round, and without money whats the point of making a game. Now i could go on argueing with you about this and that, but whats the point. You see it one way and I see it another way. I dont read posts and base my opinon of that, i play the game and make my decision there. If all i did was read reveiws and base my opinons off that, i would be like everyone. And im not like everyone else, i have my own opinons and own thoughts. Something you clearly cant see. GnH was a good game, it had its positives and negatives. All games do. Some people love WoW, some people hate WoW. But if I was to read a reveiw and base my assumption off someones opinon, then I would never know what a good game is. 

You can either hate it or like it, but as a poster of a thread you should also have a clue that people will not agree with you nor care what you have to say. Some people will come here to blast you, and some will agree with you. But in no way will everyone agree with you. That just doesnt happen, and if you think its going to. Wake up! So all in all, i dont need to read the reveiws, because I dont care. I know how the game was because I played it also. Its my opinon, deal with it. If you dont like it your more content to reply to my statements any way you chose, but remember I do bite back.   

Why are people talking about bioware like PE is just going to hand STO over to them. That cannot and will not happen unless CBS and PE jointly agree to it. Its trully up to CBS what to do with the license and as far as we know, they want PE to develop it and have not said anything else otherwise. People on these boards love starting rumors about stuff they have no clue about. So hilarious. And the political stuff on a forums board is rather a moot point. Anyways, its funny how you guys think PE looked at there game, GnH and thought it was garbage and canned it. No developer would look at a game they took 5 years to develop and just look at it, say its garbage and drop it. They looked at it in its state, saw that it needed more work then money in there pockets, glanced over to the other hall and saw the Star Trek logo, and new there was more money to be made off that game. They even quietly mentioned this not to long ago after GnH went beta. They had a timeframe from investors to get the game out by this Fall. They new that was not going to happen so investors pulled out. PE tried dragging it along but they knew were the money is. So they went to STO. In a sense it was all about the money. So to say PE is a bad company is purely false, it is actually a smart company. It saw a game for what its worth and knew it could make better money elsewere. Sounds pretty smart to me from any business sense.

GnH will be back in due time. Either when they find new investors, or when STO is out and making money. Even if STO fails after launch, it will sell tons of copies just by name alone. Either way I wish the people at PE the best, and im sure we will see them in many other games to come.