Originally posted by Xiaoki

Ah, yes, nothing quite like the classic "everything is WoWs fault" argument.

Originally posted by Scalpless

Personally, I don't care about numeric advancement. At all. Yeah, now my character does 1365 DPS instead of 1246. So what? Getting cool abilities is much more fun, but it's as if gamers don't care about that.

I really liked how you got Elite skills from bosses in Guild Wars. Getting some of them actually felt like you accomplished something that matters gameplay wise, instead of getting a bigger number. IMO removing that element is the biggest screw up of GW2.

Its not Wows fault... Because its not a fault, only a design decision greatly influenced by WoW of simplifying classes and making endgame progression totally gearbased. Ther is no way denying that fact.

And yes Scalpless, thats exactly the type of advancement i am talking about.  New skills and abbilities of just a higher dps number. 

I still dont understand how this hapened... Earlier MMOs ike EQ or DAoC in some sense developed systems to give people that sense of character advancement at max level, eq added AA and daoc added realmpoints.

why? Because players feel good when their characters get stronger...  But ever since WoW arived in 2004 this seems to be forgotten by he developers. Nowerdays you get to max level in mst MMOs and then your class stops developing any further and suddenly becoms very static. No more awesome moments of discovering new and awesome skills. 

Personally this is the part i dislike most about current day mmos, sure you can improve your gear ineffinately, but i am a firm beleiver that characters in MMOs should never stop improving, even if it takes monhs to get your next skillpoint or dvancement skill, it would still be a decent goal... 

This in combination with not havig a skilltree based mmo, is my biggest grasp with todays MMOs. 

Originally posted by urbanaudio
@lordbachus you're right about that Bacchus the stories are immersive, but i was really talking about more of how you get involved and why do you get involved in those stories other than that you're spot on. movies are linear, yet the skill of a great filmmaker is to subtly remove that feeling of linearity and provide you with a suspension of disbelief. So in spirit they are truly not linear, thats kin of what I was trying to get at. I Know things arent perfect, If you read my post, I address that.I've heard those numbers before, haha too many times, and they only have a lasting effect until you complete those same planetary and side quests over an over again, so I'd really say that 100-8 classes of gameplay time really only translates to about 20-8 hours of original story-telling, I don't know what that has to do with you not wanting sandbox elements, but that's your call.

Just the statement that adding sandbox features improves the game, as some have been crying on this website for ages, just the fact that that statement is not true...  The great majorriy of gamers are casuall, and in generl like to be entertained by a game istead of spending hors upon hours tring to find the entertainment in a game.

Originally posted by urbanaudio

@Breakingbad don't be so sure of that, EA owns star wars video games now, so my reasoning is that they'll give bioware a shot.

Originally posted by BreakingBad
With the damage being done now, I doubt we shall ever see another KotOR game again which makes me sad.

EA allready said they have plans for KOTOR 3... on top of that they said they will probably do an open world game based on the IP.

EDIT;  tried to trace back which website i read this, just cant find it ... so no backing up this with a link.

And back to the OP...

THis is the first MMO that ever immersed me with its stories, they feel much more immersed then in any other MMO currently avaialbe. And, yes i know they are linear, but so is a movie and i enjoy those too.  

Its a Themepark, and not everything is perfect, but there is 100´s of hours of gameplay available just playing the 8 class stories and the flashpoints.  So no, espescially this game does not need more sandbox elements. 

Originally posted by EvolvedMonky

I'm going to have to agree, the blame shouldn't be on the hero engine. The devs making the engine  were trying to work on there game (actually a good demo of it to get investors is how it sounds to me).  

I don't know the exact timeline but what little I've seen in this thread (didn't read all the posts) Sounds like Bioware needed something fast and cheap to create a very basic demonstration. Now I've heard LucasArts can be a real B with there IP licensing, maybe to keep it or maybe even to get more funding.  They CHOSE to use the Hero Engine. Modifying someone elses code is alot harder than using your own. But in the end it was there decision whether bad or good its all on them. 

Well, offcourse it was their choiice, and if you look at itthat way it was their fault. Thats also what they admit...  But the statement they made is not about why they made thise terrible dessigen, but about how much it cost them. They made aterrible mistake and both them and the customers payed a lot of tears for that.

All are fun games... Being free is not really an option in all 3 of them, as to enjoy lotro and EQ2 fully you will need to sub to. They just got extended free trials.

If you´re new to MMO´s i would definately check out WoW, because it has the easiest learning curve. Combat in this game is most fluent of the 3.  

If you like to be immersed into a story then lotro seems to be your best bet. The game is really fun and has some great multi player content too, the skirmishes are just fun.

If you are a group type of player, EQ2 is probably your best bet, it has most content of any MMO out there. There are dozens and dozens of dungeons on all kinds of levels troughout your leveling and at max level. 

In the end all 3 are great games, and most people will enjoy all 3 of them.

Originally posted by lowrads

Questing is pretty dull.  Go here (we'll do it for you).  Kill n mobs.  Click here.  Reading just slows you down.  Click.  Click. 

 

No thanks.

Basically clicking away text windows ruins every MMO,  try to have fun instead of rushing things.  Without story and lore all there is left is a bunch of mechanics.

Originally posted by simplius

so,,when the patient dies, because the doctor tried to do surgery with a thermometer,

we arrest the thermometer?

no, the very FIRST rule of any craftsman, is choosing the right tool for the job

specially on a big budget project like this

 

Well, thats the problem... there arent any other tools available,,,

Sure there are tools, but then those are not really fit for the job either, like opening a tincan with a screwdriver it works, but you will spill some of the beans. 

So either you choose the wrong or the broken tool and try to fix it in such a way that it works, or you create your own tool.

Actually the problem wasnt choosing the right tool, but choosing the tool with the most possibilities. Which by then was obviously the Hero engine. Sadly during development it worked out the wrong way because the hero development team failed to bring what they promissed.

So far the only smart ting seems to create your own engine like blizzard and Arenanet did.

And you know whats the most foolish thing, companies never seem to learn, as TES might be doomed equally to TSW as Zenimax is using the HERO engine...

Despite the fact that the hero engine is the only true MMO enging, or thats what they claim, its supposed to be utter crap, and the single failure of the failed release of SWTOR..  It drove the cost skyhigh.

I think an engine like this will kill almost any game despite its development team..  Its better and cheaper to rebuild a non specific MMO engine like Unreal 3. (tough vanguard failed because of failing to rebuild the Unreal 2 engine if i am correct)

The only companies with top MMO engines so far seem Blizard, Arenanet and SOE .

Its my biggest worry for TES, it will hurt the development since the hero company keeps adding new features instead of  making the current product stable.. Its a big mistake if you ask me.

The game deserves some good re-reviews

Its the most immersive themepark MMo available, for those that just love great stories

Originally posted by immodium
I hope they limit the number of vampires and werewolves. Gonna be pretty stupid(IMO) if the majority of the population in Tamriel are either.

Just make it temporal effects as i proposed.. you die, and without a resurection you will loose the effect.

And give players a rewarding questline to get rid of that effect without dieing...

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Easy they will balance for pvp

Then balance the pve content to the skills.

The right way round to do it. As opposed to your wow style approach of tack the pvp on later then face a constant circle of nerfs and buffs.

Please reread...

I didn´t propose anything, i only asked a question.

Next to that... both ways are wrong... PvP and PvE ballancing need to happen at the same moment in the core of the game.. none of both needs to be an aftertought--

And as seen in the usefull answer below, thats exactly what they are doing... ant CC skills that cost a lot of Stamina.  We will just have to see how this play out... ballance is a thin line that easilly breaks as usuall, to much anto CC in PvP and it breaks it too turning the game in a mindless DPS feast.

Originally posted by DarkLordIxor

What happened was most of the older mmorpgs were sandbox or themepark with sandbox features and limits. After the release of WoW(Which has FFA PVP, defusing the debate on sandbox players not like PVP anywhere) they tried to copy WoW removing all aspects of sandbox from games that tried to clone its success. Instead of trying to be different and unique games had a model to follow and follow they did even if it spelled doom.

 

Sandbox mmorpgs were decent from the start (SWG, Uo and variant themepark that weren't part of the status quo model like DAOC and SB), but over time as more casual people entered the market the demographics changed and what the causal people were railed into thinking was fun became the norm. There are some companies that tried to make sandbox mmorpgs, but since they don't have proper funding and experience they tend to flop.(They need to give equal freedom to all play styles, the pvpers, pvers, crafters and explorers) Once companies start product AAA mmorpgs that shake up the status quo we will see better games.

 

Optimally the best mmorpg would be sandbox with some themepark elements attached.

Some of the older sandbox games  became sandboxes becase they lacked content, ... So people cae up with their own reasons to play.

Originally posted by krage

I dont know why the two must be separate, imo I would like a hybrid that has linear themepark levelling/training experience that expands on the worlds lore and systems. That then leads into an open ended sandbox with player created content or even GM lead events that then leads back into an evolving story of the world...where that living lore is then translated into themepark expansions. Basically:

Start Themepark-----> Sandbox endgame ------>expansion themepark content builds from sandbox evolution-----> back to sandbox------>on and on and on.... lol

I think there is definitely room for both, problem I see with most games is they focus on doing only one.

Themepark games end up with themepark endgames that are very repetitive with artifical timesinks to extend the content

and

Sandbox games that are so broad from the start that it has player retention issues and a massive tendency to focus on open world pvp (which I am a fan of) that leads to intimidation of the larger portion of mmo crowds...being pve'rs/explorers/merchants...non hardcore pvpers.

 

When a company finally mixes the two styles successfully we will see a solid virtual world/mmo instead of a big unguided bludgeonfest (Current Sandboxes) or uninspired gear treadmill timesinks (Themeparks).

I really dispise games that change when they reach max level...  leaving behind the stuff that was good and which i loved for all that time is just stupid...

Sandbox...   should start from the go... with no hard levels...   skilltrees... and gear determining your power  and how strong you actually are... You die, you loose all your gear, need to start over, unless you reach your death boddy first... or have equall gear in your lockbox/vault.   Much like the orriginal UO or in EvE.  replace your spaceships with your gear and there you have it EvE in a full fantasy world.  

Originally posted by Tierless

Still not there yet...lets try this.

I think most experienced MMO players prefer skilltree  based over classbased..... the feature should be added to a true sandbox, but can be added to any themepark too..

Something worries me about your main 6 skills not having cooldowns..  (with fullweaponsetting, you will have 12 of them in your build)

I will put 6 ranged crowdcontroll skills in there and use a bow to pew pew my controlled ennemies...  Just wondering how they will prevent people from overusing these skills in PvP, while allowing them for full effect in PvE..

Another worry of mine, is that they will ruin CC builds by making most bosses CC immune, which is a designfaile to start with... The game needs a good sytem that reduces effects on bosses but does not negate them..

Dont worry, this game will be nothing like SWTOR(tough i hope their stories and voice acting are atleast on par with swtor) Its using a decent engine and not the crappy Hero stuff that ruined SWTOR..

I am expecting a release late 2013, late November, early December would be very strategic.

Is there any proof that sandboxes are popular at all?

The only proof of sandboxes being popular is that every new game gets some people on mmorpg.com begging for it to become a sandbox, and the same people scoffing any game thats not a sandbox... 

But how popular are Sandboxes?  just wondering if someone ever somewhere did a decent poll about this?

Every player is different, and likes different things... For me there are other things important then the OP. Personally i think this is the most immersive story MMO ever.

So what would i add.

Replace the space combat with something fun..

Make your ships customisable and add trophies to the game that can be used to make your ship look like a home.

Character progress stops at max level, they need to add a good AA system that allows for more character differentation at max level and beyound

More stories and planets at max level, the strong point of this game is the class and player stories, add new chapters available for all players at max level. 

More content, personally i would love to see player generated content...  But this will probably never be done with the lousy hero engine..  But player created flashpoints could be awesome. 

A 3rd neutral fraction starting at the end of your class based story. You can either join a neutral faction or even switch sides.

more attention for the openworld PvP zones..  Give some PvP quests and goals to give people a reason to PvP in these zones.

more types of PvP instances.

Add new zones and planets with dynamic events... Maybe even add some to lower level zones.

Make combat more reactive,  add more skills that can only be used in certain situations..

you see, this would make the game a much better themepark game without trying to convert it in a totally new sandboxyer game