How can you like games like WoW, SWToR (I picked that up, a few friends made me do it. Played for a month and "finished" it.) Rift etc? What is it? Oh level to the level cap, travel a world where you go from A to B because your quest journal tells you to. Be blocked by invisible walls, not being able to climb that mountain. You could travel the world but it would make no sense and be a waste of time.

When you hit the level cap (the levels before cap are the tutorial on how to play your class) after doing basically the same quest over and over (kill 10x, get y, return to base) you are ready to do the real fun stuff: repeat group and raid instances over and over again until you are decked out in the highest tier of gear. Use that to do... ummm kill stuff i guess? And wait for the next bexpansion because THEN you will be able to level up 5 more levels, maybe ten. Oh but your awesome purple gear will be worse then green stuff one level higher.

But don't worry, there is another raid treadmill to wander and gather all that shiny stuff that will be obsol... i mean that will make you awsome uber. You can stand in front of the hub zone and let newbies look at your gear in awe and admire you for having wasted so many years doing the same stuff over and over again? I mean you DO HAVE stamina, thats for sure. You also have a nail in your brain tho AND you feel no pain. I guess that can be positive character attributes too.

speaking of Hub zones. You don't even have to move your feet to get to your raid zones. Isn't that awesome? The whole world around you is useless, as i pointed out before. You may call it the tutorial zone for learning how to play your class. Anyway, all you have to do is click a button and wheeeee, you're there. Kill boss loot equip gate. THAT is real power. And fun.

I could go on and on and on about your usual WoW clone, but its tiresome, just like that kind of MMO. It was fun 10 years ago, but now its not, its repetive, boring blablabla. A trained monkey can do it. THAT is why EVE won, ladies and gentlemen.

This is a topic that i often talk about with friends.

Back in 1999 I joined a friend in playing Everquest. We had played Diablo 2 before that, but with the increasing popularity of ISDN Internet Flatrates, MMOs started to become more accessible for alot of people.

I still clearly remember the first day in Everquest, I remember exactly where i appeared in the world of Norrath. I had chosen Dark Elf Enchanter as my starting class and race, and I immediately got lost in the underground city of Neriak, wich consisted of 3 zones.

With the help of my friend I finally found the spell vendor, bought a robe from the money my friend gave me and he led me out to the Nektulos Forrest and the "newbie Lodge", wich basically was a dead tree laying on the ground with low level mobs running around it.

Needless to say I wandered off too far away from it in this dark Forrest (it really was dark, couldn't see much) and in panic ran away further and further into the forrest, where I eventually got myelf killed by some "high level" skeleton.

The world was mysterious, everything was new. A totally new concept of gameplay with unusual and harsh rules. But it was exciting and I felt small and weak and lost. I heard tales of dungeons and how dangerous they were and I imagined how it had to look in there. Leveling up was slow and tedious, but at the same time it gave you time to explore the world, talk to people, make friends that lasted till the end.

I don't know if these old school MMOs where the better games. Judging by sheer numbers they probably weren't, as capitalism tries to teach us more sales = more demand = better game.

Judging by the good memories we all seem to have about those "golden days of MMOs" they probably were better than todays instant gratification MMOs, because their type of gameplay made you immerse yourself much more into them. It might have hurt sometimes, but in the long run it was so worth it because everything we accomplished meant so much more to us.

I don't think those times will come back, of course not. Those types of MMOs won't come back either. It had become a big business. The journey is no longer the goal, phat lewts and easy rewards are.

All we have left is the knowledge of how it used to be, and that alot of newer folks will never know what they missed.

To most it doesn't matter, because they are happy with what they get today. But I am sure some of them would have enjoyed and old school UO, Meridian, EQ or DAOC too.

EvE is the ONLY TRUE MMORPG in existence today. It's an easy choice.

Hey man,

it is a good thing that you realize that you in fact ARe addicted to WoW. Because in order to get a way from an addiction you gotta be honest with yourself and admit that you are addicted. That was the first step, wich you allready took. You are allready questioning the purpose of the game.

I was in the same situation a few years back with everquest. It dictated my daily routines. I was unemployed, had low self esteem so i sat at home all day and escaped RL. At some point i kicked myself in the ass and started to work out at home, later in a gym. I then took a job and "resocialized" myself. MAking new friends and going out.

I would have never thought it would be possible, but some day I sat down my Bard in PoK, the char that meant so much to me for  years. I logged out and never logged back in. EVER. It was like a total cut, and it was absolutely easy for me, because i had realized that it's a waste of time and ruining my life.

Since then, I never engaged in a MMO hardcore. I hesitate to join guilds and commit to them 100%. I keep it casual and have fun in games like EVE Online, Global Agenda or Age of Conan. If it starts to feel like work i make the cut.

I trust that you are a rational, logical and intelligent guy since you made this post, so i am not worried. You will make the right decision

It is CCPs stated goal to create the ultimate SciFi simulator. Wich means the whole spectrum of space flight, walking in stations, landing on planets etc. Just wait and see. It's gonna be the full package some day when the technology is ready. All the cool stuff in one game, and you are free to do whatever you want. I think that sounds awesome.

Let's not call it "heroes" Let's call it "main protagonist". The person around wich the story revolves. In an MMO, the story can't evolve around everyone. The story should be the main anchor, and the players should partake in it, but it shouldn't revolve around every single one of them.

You can still be a hero, but not the center of the game universe.

PS: I think it has allready been made official that the first levels in SW:ToR will be single player only.

I love Bioware, they make fantastic Single Player titles. I played them all, from KOTOR to ME to DA. But I think they are approaching this MMORPG from a wrong angle.

I wholeheartedly agree with the OP. And I think this is one of the things wrong with todays MMOs. Remember when SWG wasn't "star-warsy" enough? Because everyone wants to be a Luke or a Han Solo right?

Wrong! Back in the day, games like SW:ToR were called Co-Op games. Games wich you could play through the storyline with friends. thats all fun and fine, but not what I call an MMO.

In an MMO I try to make a name for myself, but I'm just another guy trying to make my way in whatever harsh and cruel world I find myself in.

But now you have everyone in MMOs be the superheros. "I saved the Princess!" "Wait, you too? How the hell did she get caught again?" "Hi guys, I actually saved her too. She never told me she was trapped before" "Me too!" "Yeah, speaking of the princess.... where is she?"

Of course she is in an instance thats done by thousands of heroes per day.

Singleplayer Co-Op games with monthly fees are the new MMOs I tell you!

I expect the Space Flight to be skipable. Everything else would just be ridiculous. Just leave it out or do it right.

I didn't play it back in 1993 when Rebel Assault was released and I won't play it now.

I hope this space combat can be skipped. I never liked on-rail shooters.

Yes, this is a weird and controversial topic.

One could ask me:

Question 1: "Would you prefer dieing in (A) a No-DP game or in (B) a harsh DP game?"

The obvious answer would be (A).

Question 2: "Would you prefer playing (A) a game with no DP or (B) one with a harsh DP?"

The answer from me would be seemingly contradicting my answer to Question 1 as I would pick answer (B) here.

People here are not saying that dieing in a Harsh DP game is sooo much fun and better than a No-DP death. Of course it sucks. But that is exactly the reason why you try to die less or not at all. Hell, in EQ I hardly ever died except when we learned new raid encounters. You just knew what you could do and sometimes even pushed the envelope, but during normal day to day gameplay, death was a rarity because you didn't play beyond your means. It's just more realistic to me.

Originally posted by Grimm666

Harsh Death Penalties = more time spent getting back to where you were before death

More time spent = more time you need to play

More time you play = more gameplay time you have to subscribe for

More subscribtions = more money for the developer

Of course, that was before some developers realized that they lost more money from frustrated players who gave up trying to beat the death penalty than they gained in scamming the loyal ones and games like City of Heroes and WoW capitalized on that frustration.

I'm firmly in the camp that challenging gameplay is more than enough. I died three times today in WoW on an unlucky dungeon run. I lost five minutes of my time each time while we got back to where we were in the dungeon, rebuffed and got right back into the fight. I've seen plenty of groups in WoW disband after they grew frustrated at wiping at a particular boss. For me, this is fine. A harsh DP only penalizes a player for not reading/studying third-party guides before they enter the game or for not being ridiculously overgeared/overleveled/overskilled for the encounter such that there can be no risk of death.

First off: Challenging gameplay is in no way connected to the severity of death penalties. Severe death penalties make you pick your chances more carefully and generally be a more cautious player.

Now watch this:

No Death penalty = almost no time spent getting back to where you were before death

Less time spent = less time to finish the content and get bored

No new content = less gametime you need to subscribe for

More time to look for the next new overhyped MMO.

 I prefer a game where death actually has some meaning, not only for logical (RP) reasons (dieing sucks, heros don't die. dieing is mostly painful too, so most conscious beings avoid pain and death), but also because it makes winning more rewarding.

Sadly, most people today forgot what the RP in MMORPG stands for. To me, at least, it still matters a bit.

Players should be encouraged to avoid death.

Admit it, how often have you commited suicide deep in a dungeon because you didn't want to fight your way back out (and your group / game doesn't have group porters and your gate spells were down)

Normally, you should be left naked in your bind point and your corpse with your precious stuff on it rotting down there where you died. Or you could have just fought your way back out and not taken risks by venturing too far in.

Those were the days I like to remember, where you were actually scared and felt an adrenaline rush when things got hairy.

So how much SP do we get? 120k? Because thats about the amount a good char will gain in 2 days. Not much, but better than nothing... i guess.

I was raiding hardcore in EQ on the Vallon Zek and later the Zek server. While it was satisfying to have a gear advantage over others in PvP it also meant to constantly raid to be competitive for the good drops with the DKP system.

Eventually, I saw the light and stopped playing from one day to the other. I just broke the cycle of new expansion -> level to new cap -> farm new gear. I simply logged out one day and never logged back in. It's like a switch clicked in my brain.

It was totally easy to get off that drug for me.

Since then, I never even came close to get that immersed into an MMO. If i notice I start to sink into it, something inside me immediately revolts and holds me back. I then call some friends and go out have some drinks.

I just play MMOs to have fun now, without responsibilities. I just want to be able to log on, have some fun and log off. I don't like the thought of "having to be there" to stay competitive.

Log in, have some fun, log off. No regrets and no remorse.

The mantra of todays MMOs is: "Achieve much, fast". I think this is a short sighted idea. Because those achievements are shallow. This mantra leads to the leveling race to a faster burnout or a raidcore expirience. Or to a "what now" expirience in alot of new MMOs that don't deliver content in the end game at release. Which I think is total idiocy, because by design of most new MMOs, reaching the end game fast is all there is to do. That shows me, that alot of developers have no idea what they are doing and focus on the bling bling to increase initial sales than on quality to hold subscriptions.

Nowadays, alot of people play an MMO for 6 months and then move on to the next. They basically are waiting for a new MMO while they play their current one. They don't even plan to stay for longer than a half year because they have seen and done everything there is in those 6 months.

Can you blame them? No. It's the developers fault for releasing the boring, unoriginal, repetive crap that todays MMOs are.

Yes, I want to have some Old School elements back. Not all, but some. Because not everything was good back then, but it wasn't all bad either. The feeling of value is missing in alot of todays game. Leveling to the top in EQ could take months. But the journey was fun. You met people and socialized with them. You made friends that would then group again with you the next day and maybe raid with you a few years later still.

In todays MMOs you usually don't even care who just autojoined your group. It doesn't matter because you don't have to talk to them for the 5 minutes it takes to complete a quest. Awesome!

Lastly, heavy instancing of WORLD zones is total crap. It sucks, there is no good reason for it except saving money in production.

Even most dungeon instancing is crap. How cool was it when you walked through a forest, and you knew that deep below you, in the depths of the earth, there were people fighting monsters. In the same zone as you. If you had a showel you could dig yourself down to them! Or you could try and reach them without a loading screen.

And when you were down in that dungeon and hadn't seen the sun for hours you knew that up there the sun was actually shining. But you were stuck in that hell hole and would have to fight out...

Face it, todays MMOs are for the new generation. Little princes and princesses that want to have everything, NOW! Who then run around hold in a ultra rare item up and screaming "look what I have!" and around them 100 people say: I have that too... yawn.

In todays standards, The Lord of the Rings would have been finished in about 10 minutes.

Frodo would take the ring, talk to a travel NPC, get portet to the mountain, run past a few orcs and throw the ring into the fire.

Quest done.

I did not praise SW:ToR. Infact, even though i hold Bioware in very high regard, I think there is a big chance they will will fuck that game up. I think it will end up being a single player expirience too, with co-op modus, because there is supposed to be a whole storyline just for you, instanced. Mass Effect Online if you wish.

I won't hold my breath, but I will be sure to post a "Told you so" here when it happens hehe

PS: The "Single Server" if you want to call it so is one of the very few features I like about CO and STO for the reasons you just said. But at the same time it also means that there will be 100s of instances of the same zone. And for every mission you do there will be a myriad of instances to pass through. Some public, some closed to your avatar.

Thats what makes or breaks an MMO for me. I cant get lost in a world like that. In classic titles you would be in some dungeon and call some friends over. Meet other people on they way down that have nothing to do with you. Maybe they would train your group and you would write their names down on the "idiots" list. Or maybe make friends with them.

Thats what an MMO is all about. If i want instances all for myself I can play single player games. Vanguard has nice seamless open world dungeons. SWG had nice seamless open world dungeons, huge planetary surfaces, multi person spaceships.

Both games where ruined. But they were still better than all that rushed trash thats coming out these days.

I do play EVE Online now, and it seems like a good "investment". Those new trashy games you ask yourself: Will it last one year, maybe two?

I have started to despise the MMORPG industry, the developers that make every shitty feature or design decision sound like its the best thing since sliced bread. I just can't hear it anymore and I give them the middle finger by not buying their shitty products. 

What a pity, what a waste of a great IP.

STO is not an MMORPG, it is a MOG at best. A single Player game with multiplayer support. A simple one at that. I wouldn't even buy it if it was advertised as a single player title.

The whole concept is total failure. Heavy Instancing is the single most idiotic design decision for any MMO developer to make. It is the easy way out, the poor mans solution to an otherwise more complex system. It probably saaves them millions in server hardware too.

I tried CO and knew: STO is gonna fail hard.

Of course, it's fun at the beginning. Its new and fresh. Some will realise this sooner, others later or never. There will be blinded fanboys that WANT THIS TITLE TO SUCCEED. But it wont. It will dwindle off into a lower mediocre state and fade out in a slow and mostly unnoticed implosion.

And with this chapter finished, I look forward to SW:ToR with a concerned face. Storys that revolve around the players avatar means instancing...

We need a new game genre: MOGs. Online games that do not even try to be massive. It seems to be the direction most Developers want to take because its cheaper, easier, faster.

Damn I really wanted to like this game, but holy shit. They messed this up beyond repair in the concepting phase allready lol.

Originally posted by Josher
And when you lose ALL YOUR GEAR, how pray tell do you buy new gear to replace it? Does that new gear just plop into your bank when you die? Nope. You have to go grind to get it again. SO, it might be a better idea to actually understand how game dynamics work and look at the big picture. Just a thought. Losing all your gear is just another mindless TIME SINK that is neither challenging nor productive or FUN. Maybe grinding for gear is fun for you. When you lose it, you have to grind something to replace it right? Otherwise, why get frightened at the thought of losing it?

Why do you play MMOs? I think you might enjoy single player games more.

Back in 1998 or 1999 I played Half Life and my little cousin was watching. I had the crowbar in my hand and tried to get into a air vent at the ceiling. So after a while of jumping, ducking, climbing I still hadn't managed to get into that air vent. Thats when my little cousin asked with the innocent and unknowing voice only a naive little child can have:

"Why don't you use the crowbar and pull yourself up into the vent?"

Silence followed, then laughter.

But he was actually right. Why can't I use the damn crowbar to pull myself up? Why can a mage not learn to wield a twohanded sword or a Warrior to cast a spell? Why can't you use that dynamite you got to complete this mission to blow up the air transport thingies in WoW instead? Why can't you attack this other guy in a city zone but in a pvp zone you can? Why does only every third boar you kill drop a boar tail you need for a quest? Why can I not give this item I don't need anymore to another person?

I think alot of people would actually like the concept of a sandbox game, they are just afraid to try it because not only does it give them benefits, more power and control over their gaming expirience. The consequences of their actions and/or mistakes are also much more severe.

Lastly, as an EVE Player, I fear the bad influence an increased playerbase might have on my favourite game. If the pressure is big enough, CCP might grow soft and alienate the game over time to cater to the new customers.

Bigger subscription numbers could be a blessing or a bane.

Hey man, I think what you figured out just now has happened to many "older" players. I personally have never really played WoW (got a warrior to 40something) but I did play Everquest hardcore. The mechanics are the same. You level to maximum level and start raiding to get the best gear. Then you come out with a new Expansion and a new level cap and all your fancy stuff means nothing, because its obsolete a few weeks later.

Either you keep up with the grind, wich means raid attendance every day or you get left behind and pick up the stuff that no one wants. If you want to be the best of the best you gotta live in the game.

One day I sat down my char, said good night in guild chat like every day and never logged back in. Even the people you thought relying on your presence maybe wondered for a few weeks were you are and then recruit someone else to fill your spot and move on.

What it comes down to is this: You and your character are replaceable. The only thing that matters is attendance and a grasp of the simple game mechancis + a normal attention span.

If you are good people might remember you, but they probably wont miss you. Because they are still immersed in the game and only care for that better gear. Because they think they have invested so much time into their gear, they can't just let that go to waste.

That is how MMORPGS work. You are creating a bond to your character and its equipment wich cost you so much time and nevers to get, you don't want to throw that away.

And sometimes it just makes "click" in your brain and you realise how stupid and useless it all is and just move on.

I play EVE these days, not a hardcore raiding game. Log in, kill some people, have some fun, log off. I don't want to have obligations to keep me logged on. And that is exactly what MMOs like WoW "force" you to do if you want to stay competitive.

Waste of time, thats what it is. And it's great at that.

Enyo

1. [b]Instant Recall I[/b] (14 minutes, 42 seconds)
2. [b]Analytical Mind I[/b] (13 minutes, 53 seconds)
3. [b]Learning I[/b] (13 minutes, 30 seconds)
4. [b]Instant Recall II[/b] (1 hour, 1 minute, 44 seconds)
5. [b]Analytical Mind II[/b] (58 minutes, 34 seconds)
6. [b]Learning II[/b] (57 minutes, 6 seconds)
7. [b]Instant Recall III[/b] (5 hours, 16 minutes, 35 seconds)
8. [b]Analytical Mind III[/b] (5 hours, 1 minute, 30 seconds)
9. [b]Learning III[/b] (4 hours, 54 minutes, 29 seconds)
10. [b]Instant Recall IV[/b] (1 day, 3 hours, 14 minutes, 42 seconds)
11. [b]Eidetic Memory I[/b] (31 minutes, 26 seconds)
12. [b]Eidetic Memory II[/b] (2 hours, 20 minutes, 13 seconds)
13. [b]Eidetic Memory III[/b] (12 hours, 40 minutes, 45 seconds)
14. [b]Analytical Mind IV[/b] (22 hours, 58 minutes, 17 seconds)
15. [b]Logic I[/b] (26 minutes, 41 seconds)
16. [b]Logic II[/b] (1 hour, 59 minutes, 49 seconds)
17. [b]Logic III[/b] (10 hours, 53 minutes, 59 seconds)
18. [b]Learning IV[/b] (21 hours, 18 minutes, 2 seconds)
19. [b]Spatial Awareness I[/b] (8 minutes, 25 seconds)
20. [b]Iron Will I[/b] (8 minutes, 25 seconds)
21. [b]Spatial Awareness II[/b] (39 minutes, 13 seconds)
22. [b]Iron Will II[/b] (39 minutes, 13 seconds)
23. [b]Spatial Awareness III[/b] (3 hours, 41 minutes, 43 seconds)
24. [b]Iron Will III[/b] (3 hours, 41 minutes, 43 seconds)
25. [b]Spatial Awareness IV[/b] (20 hours, 54 minutes, 22 seconds)
26. [b]Iron Will IV[/b] (20 hours, 54 minutes, 22 seconds)
27. [b]Focus I[/b] (37 minutes, 32 seconds)
28. [b]Clarity I[/b] (30 minutes, 51 seconds)
29. [b]Focus II[/b] (2 hours, 45 minutes, 51 seconds)
30. [b]Clarity II[/b] (2 hours, 14 minutes, 45 seconds)
31. [b]Focus III[/b] (14 hours, 52 minutes, 22 seconds)
32. [b]Clarity III[/b] (11 hours, 57 minutes, 23 seconds)
33. [b]Gallente Frigate I[/b] (17 minutes, 28 seconds)
34. [b]Gallente Frigate II[/b] (1 hour, 21 minutes, 22 seconds)
35. [b]Gallente Frigate III[/b] (7 hours, 40 minutes, 12 seconds)
36. [b]Gallente Frigate IV[/b] (1 day, 19 hours, 23 minutes, 25 seconds)
37. [b]Gallente Frigate V[/b] (10 days, 5 hours, 27 minutes, 6 seconds)
38. [b]Engineering V[/b] (4 days, 14 hours, 14 minutes, 43 seconds)
39. [b]Mechanic V[/b] (4 days, 14 hours, 14 minutes, 43 seconds)
40. [b]Assault Ships I[/b] (35 minutes, 36 seconds)
41. [b]Motion Prediction I[/b] (17 minutes, 28 seconds)
42. [b]Motion Prediction II[/b] (1 hour, 21 minutes, 22 seconds)
43. [b]Motion Prediction III[/b] (7 hours, 40 minutes, 12 seconds)
44. [b]Small Hybrid Turret I[/b] (8 minutes, 44 seconds)
45. [b]Small Hybrid Turret II[/b] (40 minutes, 42 seconds)
46. [b]Small Hybrid Turret III[/b] (3 hours, 50 minutes, 5 seconds)
47. [b]Small Hybrid Turret IV[/b] (21 hours, 41 minutes, 42 seconds)
48. [b]Small Hybrid Turret V[/b] (5 days, 2 hours, 43 minutes, 33 seconds)
49. [b]Small Blaster Specialization I[/b] (26 minutes, 12 seconds)
50. [b]Small Blaster Specialization II[/b] (2 hours, 2 minutes, 2 seconds)
51. [b]Small Blaster Specialization III[/b] (11 hours, 30 minutes, 19 seconds)
52. [b]Small Blaster Specialization IV[/b] (2 days, 17 hours, 5 minutes, 8 seconds)
53. [b]Surgical Strike I[/b] (34 minutes, 56 seconds)
54. [b]Surgical Strike II[/b] (2 hours, 42 minutes, 43 seconds)
55. [b]Surgical Strike III[/b] (15 hours, 20 minutes, 26 seconds)
56. [b]Surgical Strike IV[/b] (3 days, 14 hours, 46 minutes, 50 seconds)
57. [b]Trajectory Analysis I[/b] (43 minutes, 40 seconds)
58. [b]Trajectory Analysis II[/b] (3 hours, 23 minutes, 25 seconds)
59. [b]Trajectory Analysis III[/b] (19 hours, 10 minutes, 31 seconds)
60. [b]Weapon Upgrades I[/b] (17 minutes, 28 seconds)
61. [b]Weapon Upgrades II[/b] (1 hour, 21 minutes, 22 seconds)
62. [b]Weapon Upgrades III[/b] (7 hours, 40 minutes, 12 seconds)
63. [b]Weapon Upgrades IV[/b] (1 day, 19 hours, 23 minutes, 25 seconds)
64. [b]Motion Prediction IV[/b] (1 day, 19 hours, 23 minutes, 25 seconds)
65. [b]Rapid Firing I[/b] (17 minutes, 28 seconds)
66. [b]Rapid Firing II[/b] (1 hour, 21 minutes, 22 seconds)
67. [b]Rapid Firing III[/b] (7 hours, 40 minutes, 12 seconds)
68. [b]Rapid Firing IV[/b] (1 day, 19 hours, 23 minutes, 25 seconds)
69. [b]Sharpshooter I[/b] (17 minutes, 28 seconds)
70. [b]Sharpshooter II[/b] (1 hour, 21 minutes, 22 seconds)
71. [b]Sharpshooter III[/b] (7 hours, 40 minutes, 12 seconds)
72. [b]Sharpshooter IV[/b] (1 day, 19 hours, 23 minutes, 25 seconds)
73. [b]Controlled Bursts I[/b] (17 minutes, 28 seconds)
74. [b]Controlled Bursts II[/b] (1 hour, 21 minutes, 22 seconds)
75. [b]Controlled Bursts III[/b] (7 hours, 40 minutes, 12 seconds)
76. [b]Controlled Bursts IV[/b] (1 day, 19 hours, 23 minutes, 25 seconds)
77. [b]Energy Management I[/b] (23 minutes, 32 seconds)
78. [b]Energy Management II[/b] (1 hour, 49 minutes, 38 seconds)
79. [b]Energy Management III[/b] (10 hours, 20 minutes, 7 seconds)
80. [b]Energy Management IV[/b] (2 days, 10 hours, 28 minutes)
81. [b]Energy Systems Operation I[/b] (7 minutes, 50 seconds)
82. [b]Energy Systems Operation II[/b] (36 minutes, 33 seconds)
83. [b]Energy Systems Operation III[/b] (3 hours, 26 minutes, 41 seconds)
84. [b]Energy Systems Operation IV[/b] (19 hours, 29 minutes, 20 seconds)
85. [b]Navigation I[/b] (7 minutes, 42 seconds)
86. [b]Afterburner I[/b] (7 minutes, 42 seconds)
87. [b]Afterburner II[/b] (35 minutes, 57 seconds)
88. [b]Afterburner III[/b] (3 hours, 23 minutes, 14 seconds)
89. [b]Afterburner IV[/b] (19 hours, 9 minutes, 50 seconds)
90. [b]Electronics I[/b] (7 minutes, 50 seconds)
91. [b]Electronics II[/b] (36 minutes, 33 seconds)
92. [b]Electronics III[/b] (3 hours, 26 minutes, 41 seconds)
93. [b]Electronics IV[/b] (19 hours, 29 minutes, 20 seconds)
94. [b]Targeting I[/b] (7 minutes, 50 seconds)
95. [b]Targeting II[/b] (36 minutes, 33 seconds)
96. [b]Targeting III[/b] (3 hours, 26 minutes, 41 seconds)
97. [b]Navigation II[/b] (35 minutes, 57 seconds)
98. [b]Navigation III[/b] (3 hours, 23 minutes, 14 seconds)
99. [b]Navigation IV[/b] (19 hours, 9 minutes, 50 seconds)
100. [b]Fuel Conservation I[/b] (15 minutes, 25 seconds)
101. [b]Fuel Conservation II[/b] (1 hour, 11 minutes, 52 seconds)
102. [b]Fuel Conservation III[/b] (6 hours, 46 minutes, 30 seconds)
103. [b]Fuel Conservation IV[/b] (1 day, 14 hours, 19 minutes, 41 seconds)

[b]103[/b] skills; Total time: [b]64 days, 22 hours, 20 minutes, 45 seconds[/b]

The important skills to 4 or 5 is enough to kill any BS spawn. The ships are small and fast, so wont be hit if orbiting in close range. This is with +3 implants, so might be a bit expensive. The skills all in all cost about 28 million isk themselves. So the beginner would have about 2 months time to gather isk for them while training.

Could start with +1 or +2 implants.

But the point is, as you can see, a totally potent Assault Frigate Pilot at 3,600,000 SP total in two months. With a friend to pump you some money for implants and skills, absolutely doable. Without that you would probably have to add another month total.

 Without implants and learning skills, this will take 135 days average.

With implants and without learnings it will take 95 days average

Without implants and with learnings it will take 78 days average