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All Posts by l2avism

All Posts by l2avism

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53 posts found

Its called create an army and destroy the dominant country.

Or do what China is doing to the USA and just outsmart them at their own game.

This is actually kind of close. Real games often use map generators that generate things using "fractals". Basically you repeat an algorithm over and over again that takes random numbers and the previous result as input and you end up with something like what you posted.

I want to allow player kingdoms to create and control the printing of their own paper currency. They can print money to finance war or city building but doing so makes the currency weaker (just like IRL).

This also allows for currency wars like we have in the real world were countries do things to keep their currency strong to make imports cheap or keep their currency weak to make their exports cheap (and sell more stuff).

Gold would be another commodity like stone or leather that would be traded.

This could give economics nerds fun, but I think that most players will just stick to the strongest currency at any given time.

 

Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by l2avism
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Sovrath

from your post:

"Also, when did 10 person studios suddenly become "indie"? Indie is short for individual, as in one person. Many AAA games only have 5-25 people working on them."

The first mmo's did have small teams but not necessarily "one person"

"What "research" do you suppose I conduct? Should I visit the Library of Gaming and read up in the section labeled "Indie development"?"

How about just put it into google? I just did this to see if it would yield the correct result and it did. Indie means (which an above poster already stated) independent.

Yes, you are correct, Blizzard would have been considered "indie" at the start if taken at face value. What is usually attributed to "indie" companies is that they don't have a lot of money. "Indie" is slang for independent but it also encompasses the idea of small. I imagine if you had a company of 50 people that had very little money and all the employees were working for a pittance then they could still be "indie".

If there was a company with 2 people but they were funded with billions of dollars (extreme example) they they might also still be considered indie. However, usually the slang "indie" really just encompasses an idea of small company with no money even though one could find extremes that could fit.

 Indie means independent of publisher. 50 employees in a company without a publisher is still indie. I think you're confusing hobbyist with indie. One is a subset of the other. 

If your company has 50 employees (excluding tech support etc) and makes games or any other software then it is considered a relatively large company. Not massive, but larger than most. Typically you have like 5 to 7 programmers and the rest of the employees for the project would make the artwork (textures, 3d models, sounds, music, quests, etc). The programming side of the project is fairly constant regardless of the scale of the game since really the only thing you are scaling is how much content you have.

Oh, and 50 employees would also cost you about 3 million a year given that you pay them the lowest in the industry. You would need around 200k to 400k active subscribers just to break even. That is hardly what I would call small.

Indy used to be this cool hipster thing where some lowly google emplyee would sit around at home and make some kickass tablet game for android. Now its being abused by AAA types as a way to cut out the publisher to make more $$$.

 

Interesting! Tell me more about the size of an indie game studio. *listenz*

 

 

 

Just common sense, if you have 50 employees you need to be bringing in mega $$$.

Each employee will cost you around $60k a year, and a subscription only brings in $15 of revenue You would need a AAA level game to keep 50 employees around. Also remember that you will need to have more employees sitting around answering the phone for GM support staff that you will have making the game.

Blizzard has been a massively large company with thousands of employees since the 90's. To call blizzard "indie" because they self publish games is a sign of just how ignorant people have become.

Lets examine how the real world works.

 

Back along time ago we used to just use gold and silver as money. Its rare, thats why it worked.

 

Now we use currency that is printed and given value because the government says it has value (actually, it only has value because we think it does).

Some important points:

1. The government borrows all money from the central bank. The US treasury borrows money from a private bank called "the Federal Reserve". The treasury sells bonds (IOU's + interest) to the Federal Reserve, the federal reserve has the Mint print money to cover the purchase (basically creating money from nothing to buy the bonds, and then making profit from the interest).

2. The government spends the money it borrowed. This is how it goes into the economy.

3. The government collects taxes to pay the interest and principle on the bonds. In many countries like the USA, 100% of the tax revenue is used to pay back this debt.

4. All banks use "fractional reserve" banking. This means that banks loan out money that belongs to a depositor while still showing that the depositor still has the money it just loaned out. Basically they just duplicated the money to make the loan. This is why banks never have enough money in the vault to hand out if everyone came asking for their deposits back. In fact, in the USA 97% of all money in existance is created by these private banks and not by the fed or the government.

5. Private banks sometimes borrow money from each other or the Federal reserve to make sure that a certain reserve ratio is maintained.

6. Every dollar in existance is debt. The debt can never be paid off because doing so you would run out of dollars paying the principle and the interest would remain. To pay off old debt you must borrow more money.

7. When more money is borrowed, inflation rises. When debt is paid off, deflation occurs.

 

As you can see, the real world is not much of a sandbox. Because the economy has to keep borrowing more and more, moving the interest rate up or down basically controls the entire thing.

In my game's concept, dragons arrive on the scene (still working on a story) to a world devastated by natural disasters to exploit the remaining humans to feed their greed.

 

Anyways, the humans are ignorant and think that the technology that the dragons posess is magic. In reality the dragons just acquired the technology from humans in the past before most of them died off.

Some examples could be a mage-like power that shoots a lazer that is powrered by a special battery that asorbs chemical energy from the blood of the user. (basically the device makes electicity from the users stamina)

 

Sounds like a good thing? Too weird?

so much to reply to....

 

My game will not have levels or quests. You are a dragon remember? Dragons like gold. Dragons don't do stupid quests. Your progression is basically determined by how many humans you control and how many dragons (ie other players) you team up with and most importantly how much gold and natural resources the aformentioned brings you.

Dragons don't actually do alot. They kind of hang around the castle and make the humans do their bidding (think of like how the NPC's worked in shadowbane, or like how they kind of work in RTS's). You can choose to directly mind control your chosen humans (this is what replaces your traditional character slots). You will need to raise these humans from youth and place them through training (you park them in a school building of some kind for some time). When a human dies, you lose it forever. In fact the plan is to have the dead body be considered an inventory item that can be used in crafting. Dragons also die. It may be even possible to have the highest quality and rarest items require dragon corpses (ie, you must kill another player to craft it). Dragons are hard to kill though, and they know a thing or two when it comes to magic and technology.

Hopefully now you all understand how I plan to do it. The pain of permadeath is lessened because progression is not based around a single avatar. If your human dies, you have an entire village of humans to deplete. Maybe you could even kidnap humans from an enemy kingdom and use them in your army to conquer that same enemy.

 

I understand how some people think its lame how you don't run around the world as your dragon. In my game dragons are superior beings with great intelliect and wisdom while humans are basically dumb and do what they are told...or be eaten.. or burninated. You can still have anthro fun though, I'm considering allowing dragons to teach limited mind control to humans so that they can control animals.

This is definatly not some rehash of the same ole fantasy RPG MMO concept.

 

Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by l2avism
Originally posted by Sovrath

This poll portrays you as having a bias by the use of your language.

"fake it until you make it"?

"what most kickstart

"aka 10 minutes of work- most mmo kickstarters"

 

In any case, my answer would be alpha and you need to do more research as you don't know what indy actually means.

 

The first indies where a bunch of solo nerds who made smart phone games, not dozens of teamembers asking for a million dollars.

What "research" do you suppose I conduct? Should I visit the Library of Gaming and read up in the section labeled "Indie development"?

If being independant makes you indie, then companies like Blizzard would have been considered indie when they released WOW without a publisher. So would have alot of game companies in the 1990's.

Hey guys, microsoft was indie when they released age of empires 2! They didn't sign up with a publisher!

 

from your post:

"Also, when did 10 person studios suddenly become "indie"? Indie is short for individual, as in one person. Many AAA games only have 5-25 people working on them."

The first mmo's did have small teams but not necessarily "one person"

"What "research" do you suppose I conduct? Should I visit the Library of Gaming and read up in the section labeled "Indie development"?"

How about just put it into google? I just did this to see if it would yield the correct result and it did. Indie means (which an above poster already stated) independent.

Yes, you are correct, Blizzard would have been considered "indie" at the start if taken at face value. What is usually attributed to "indie" companies is that they don't have a lot of money. "Indie" is slang for independent but it also encompasses the idea of small. I imagine if you had a company of 50 people that had very little money and all the employees were working for a pittance then they could still be "indie".

If there was a company with 2 people but they were funded with billions of dollars (extreme example) they they might also still be considered indie. However, usually the slang "indie" really just encompasses an idea of small company with no money even though one could find extremes that could fit.

 

 Indie means independent of publisher. 50 employees in a company without a publisher is still indie. I think you're confusing hobbyist with indie. One is a subset of the other. 

 

If your company has 50 employees (excluding tech support etc) and makes games or any other software then it is considered a relatively large company. Not massive, but larger than most. Typically you have like 5 to 7 programmers and the rest of the employees for the project would make the artwork (textures, 3d models, sounds, music, quests, etc). The programming side of the project is fairly constant regardless of the scale of the game since really the only thing you are scaling is how much content you have.

 

Oh, and 50 employees would also cost you about 3 million a year given that you pay them the lowest in the industry. You would need around 200k to 400k active subscribers just to break even. That is hardly what I would call small.

 

Indy used to be this cool hipster thing where some lowly google emplyee would sit around at home and make some kickass tablet game for android. Now its being abused by AAA types as a way to cut out the publisher to make more $$$.

Originally posted by mark2123

 

If I read your concept correctly, the slaves die but the dragon does not - so it's no perma-death for the main character.  Is that right?

 

Wrong. Dragons also die. its just that you keep your dragon safe so they rarely die. Now if you are seiged and your city becomes swamped with enemies and you don't flee (with your gold ofcourse) then you will probably die.

 

Originally posted by Soull85
I would make the character progression aspect separate from the character. If progression would be account related and not character related than all the hard work that a player would invest in the game would still be there after a character dies. Starting over with a new character but having some pasive skills that you aquired in the past on other characters would improve my view of a perma death game. Loosing items and lvl is bad enough on dying so having something about your work and invested time transfer over to another char you make might make it appealing.

Because the humans behave like tradtitional mmo characters, the dragon serves the purpose of keeping up with progression. Remember, you are a dragon, progression = gold in your stash. Well, its not that clear cut- humans do train up skills but humans can be bred as well as traded. Its not penalty free, but its not the end of the world.

 

Originally posted by giftedHorn

i think the problem with your concept is how disappointed players would be who come to your game to play as a dragon, then find that they spend 90% of their time as a disposable human slave. No-one wants to roleplay a disposable human slave, that's too close to our real-life situations.

 

How about...

 

your main dragon can raise and train its hatchlings / siblings to one level below its own? You die and you lose your dragon, you lose the look, the name, any titles or gear (do dragons wear magic rings? earrings maybe?), but only one level of experience and progression in the game. That is, if you have been spending the time to train the rest of your brood. I envision the training as a series of practice fights, like in Mount & Blade, that could take up 20% or more of your time.

You can have more than one dragon on your account. Just remember that the dragon you own everything on has to stay fat and warm and protected in the castle. It's unfeasible to do everything as a dragon. You can't harvest timber or farm corn as a dragon. You're human slaves do all of this and have AI so that when you aren't controlling them they keep everything going. You will naturally pick out a few favorite humans that you play as.

There are no levels. Your progression is by what you acquire. That is over time you acquire material resources and you build an empire. The map will be large enough so that everyone could own land (if they choose).

 

Originally posted by tawess
Originally posted by l2avism
Originally posted by Xxerox

I was expecting some of the chosable options to be stages. Only one - two of the mentioned are stages.

 

There is much more to "stages" that you said. 

 

Those are stages. All of them.

At first you only have an idea. (brainstorming)

Then you toy around with artwork and prefab engines. (feasibility analysis)

Then you start making artwork. (development)

Then you start making it demoable. (development / unit testing)

Then when you have a running client and server, and you can perform probably half of the gameplay needed you can call that a playable alpha. (testing + recursive development to correct flaws)

The second interation over the alpha becomes the beta. (although in modern software dev, you don't have predefined alpha and beta, you use smaller iterations so you can "fail sooner" aka "agile development")

 

Just because I didn't crack open a diagram of the stages of software development and instead used common language doesn't mean you have to hate me bro.

So why did you not post that list as the poll instead.... 

 

Because you know... your "common language" just came of as snide and rather abrasive. 

 

Because I didn't think that readers would become emotional unstable after reading it.

My words reflect the reality. That reality is that most kickstarter projects are an outright scam. Even the ones that aren't are a bunch of college freshmen who think that they can download Unity and buy a bunch of 3d assets and push a button and have a working MMO. Seriously, very few kickstarter games actually make it to completion.

So in that environment, you must plan your kickstarter carefully.

Hell, even crowfall is nothing but a bunch of screenshots and videos of someone running around demoing in Unity. Not a single scrap of evidence of a working game (ie the second or third option on the list) but they do have solid AAA experience.

A lowly indie like me can't hope to be that lucky though, so I'll stick it out until I have something players and log into and test-drive.

Originally posted by Skooma2
"Indie" means independent, not individual.  That being said, I have a real problem with Kickstarter because you have absolutely no guarantee that the project will ever see the light of day.  The poll set forth in this thread does not include an option to vote for no Kickstarter ever.

 

To be fair, without kickstarter most of these indies would be unable to complete their projects because they would have to keep their day job.

If you aren't signed with a large company like EA or significantly wealthy, then you won't have the startup capital to create a game. You sure as hell aren't going to get a loan from the bank. Also MMO's have significantly higher startup costs because of the need to acquire a small server farm.

Originally posted by Xxerox

I was expecting some of the chosable options to be stages. Only one - two of the mentioned are stages.

 

There is much more to "stages" that you said. 

 

Those are stages. All of them.

At first you only have an idea. (brainstorming)

Then you toy around with artwork and prefab engines. (feasibility analysis)

Then you start making artwork. (development)

Then you start making it demoable. (development / unit testing)

Then when you have a running client and server, and you can perform probably half of the gameplay needed you can call that a playable alpha. (testing + recursive development to correct flaws)

The second interation over the alpha becomes the beta. (although in modern software dev, you don't have predefined alpha and beta, you use smaller iterations so you can "fail sooner" aka "agile development")

 

Just because I didn't crack open a diagram of the stages of software development and instead used common language doesn't mean you have to hate me bro.

Originally posted by Sovrath

This poll portrays you as having a bias by the use of your language.

"fake it until you make it"?

"what most kickstart

"aka 10 minutes of work- most mmo kickstarters"

 

In any case, my answer would be alpha and you need to do more research as you don't know what indy actually means.

 

The first indies where a bunch of solo nerds who made smart phone games, not dozens of teamembers asking for a million dollars.

What "research" do you suppose I conduct? Should I visit the Library of Gaming and read up in the section labeled "Indie development"?

If being independant makes you indie, then companies like Blizzard would have been considered indie when they released WOW without a publisher. So would have alot of game companies in the 1990's.

Hey guys, microsoft was indie when they released age of empires 2! They didn't sign up with a publisher!

 

Originally posted by Xxerox

Yea... No, i hate your concept.  What is the point to have slaves in the first place, if someone wont make slaves but just attack others.

 

Real Perma Death will work only if there are no levels. Everything is equal, just hs to be killed different way. A perfect shop system, where players can easilly buy start equipment. Where the best items do not boost your status but just work differently than the rest of the items.

 

You should really do the attacking as your human slave. Not only because losing your main dragon avatar results in permadeath (as well as all of your in game assets becoming ownerless and easily stolen) but because you can train many abilities on your humans.

I haven't went into detail about the game itself, but its not a traditional themepark. Its not even really a traditional sandbox. It's sort of like a RTS but then again not really. The human slaves do have AI, and they do all of the boring tasks like farming corn or mining iron ore even while you are offline. They can also be arranged into defensive armies. Your dragon will remain safely hidden in your castle where he/she can remotely control humans and passes down orders to the kingdom through the controlled human government. It's like an NWO conspiracy but with dragons.

 

 

Originally posted by Nitth

 


Originally posted by l2avism
I'm considering using permanent death in a game I've been making as a hobby. I work on it the few hours a week I have when I'm not at work fulltime.

 

There is alot of fear and hatred of the concept, mainly beacuse MMO's have become never-ending grindfests and having your avatar destroyed by death would mean the sudden loss of years of agonizing repetitive work.

My proposal is to just do away with the grind. Well, sort of anyways. In my game you play an avatar that is an all powerful dragon that can die (permanently of course).

To make it hard to die, you do most of the gameplay as a mind-controlled human. You train up your human slave over time and you can make them as disposable as you want them to be. Because you can breed them and have dozens of humans, the loss of one or even many is not going to wreck your gameplay.

Your dragon is very powerful and you could fly around as your dragon and destroy other dragons' buildings and humans, but if you are attacked and you die...well its game over.


 

Just don't do an RPG or MMorpg then your golden.

Games like Faster than light do permerdeath in a way that a broader audience can stomach.
If you need to interact with other players just add that, Multiplayer. No need for persistence or grinding or rpg elements.

 

No grinding, basically your progress in the game is through how much stuff your dragon acquires through conquest or trade through the human empire he/she controls.

 

Originally posted by rounner
The only way I see perma death working in an rpg with progression and emotional attachment to the avatar is one where you have multiple avatars and ween from one to another. One way or another though you would need to keep some kind of accumulated progression or else no one will risk the loss or just rage quit.  

 

The dragon avatar is how I do "accumulated progression". Because you don't prance bout on your dragon carelessly and die, your progression is as safe as your dragon is.

Your humans do have training and specialization, but that takes only time spent having your human locked away in some school building and not direct grinding on your part.

 

I was wondering when I should throw my hobby project on kickstarter.

Currently I work on the client and server code in my free time after work, and there are no team members.

My plan is to get a working alpha and to just use prefab assets. (Most people still don't even know that you can export Unity assets and use them in other engines or modeling software!)

However, I've noticed that about 99% of the games that go to kickstarter are just a bunch of screenshots made in photoshop and videos of walkarounds in Unity. That is they have nothing complete and they spent more time typing up the kickstarter than actually working on their project.

There is also the fact that most of them ask for only like $10k and expect to fund a project with 10 people for 1 year. (because 1 person for 1 year is about $60k after taxes etc). You could spend more than $10k just on trees and rocks for the game world realistically speaking.

Also, when did 10 person studios suddenly become "indie"? Indie is short for individual, as in one person. Many AAA games only have 5-25 people working on them. In software development it is widely taught that adding more people to a project actually slows down a project because time is lost to meetings and communication. In fact it is software industry standard practice to only have around 5 people on a project.

anyways, enough to the soapbox rants about the abuse of the indy term.

I'm considering using permanent death in a game I've been making as a hobby. I work on it the few hours a week I have when I'm not at work fulltime.

There is alot of fear and hatred of the concept, mainly beacuse MMO's have become never-ending grindfests and having your avatar destroyed by death would mean the sudden loss of years of agonizing repetitive work.

My proposal is to just do away with the grind. Well, sort of anyways. In my game you play an avatar that is an all powerful dragon that can die (permanently of course).

To make it hard to die, you do most of the gameplay as a mind-controlled human. You train up your human slave over time and you can make them as disposable as you want them to be. Because you can breed them and have dozens of humans, the loss of one or even many is not going to wreck your gameplay.

Your dragon is very powerful and you could fly around as your dragon and destroy other dragons' buildings and humans, but if you are attacked and you die...well its game over.

Originally posted by Mors.Magne
Originally posted by Phaserlight
Originally posted by l2avism

Sandbox Both: most sandbox games, DF, EVE

Genuinely curious: what PvE content is there in Eve?

There are a large number of missions and exploration sites. It's enough to keep someone playing for weeks or even months.

 

It's the PvP and human interaction that keeps people coming back for years.

 

However, I don't think I'll be returning to any sort of MMORPG until the Oculus Rift is adopted.

Yeah, try going for the Caldari Navy Raven mission line until completion and see how long that takes. LOL

Originally posted by DamonVile
I'd be willing to bet the most popular answer would have been themebox pve focus with flagged pvp. People like aspects of all the types of games but want more choices in the games we play.

This is the Themepark both option. It has pve and pvp.

Originally posted by elocke
Originally posted by ghorgos

Sandpark (pve with some pvp)

I simply like elements from both Themeparks and Sandboxes and would like to see a combinaation of both.

This.  And since the poll does not have this option, the poll sucks.

go make your own poll then

Originally posted by whisperwynd
It won't decide a thing, just go off tangent and become another PvP vs PvE thread but have fun anyway.

Thats why you just look at the poll and totally disregard everything underneath :)

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