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All Posts by l2avism

All Posts by l2avism

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78 posts found

the only thing that happens before the depth test would be the geometry shader (which has been replaced by the "tessellation" and "hull" shaders) and the vertex shader.

There are orders of magnitude far fewer mesh points to compute than there are pixels to render.

Think about it, a 3d model with 1000 verticies may end up having 3000 verticies after you tesselate it, but the fragment/pixel shader has to process how ever many millions of pixels that the mesh may take to render.

Think about it, 3000x2 or millions x2.

You are making mountains from molehills.

 

Wait, what was this thread about again? :p

It seems like anyone posting anything negative about any game (mostly WoW though) is automatically banned.

What good is having a forum about MMO's if you can't actually discuss the games for fear of being banned?

Originally posted by Quizzical

 

If you do the painter's algorithm, you have to do the depth test once for each pixel after rasterization the first time, and then again when you do it the second time to actually draw the pixel.  If you do it the naive way, you only do it once for each pixel, period. 

This is where you are wrong. It you have a tree behind a cow, and you render that and the scene is rotated so that the cow is painted last then:

1. tree is rendered first, all shader stages are called (yes, the unavoidable z-test happens even though there is nothing in the z-buffer)

2. cow is rendered, the pixels that are under the cow were painted with the tree and are now painted again after passing the Z-test (which showed that the tree we painted earlier is behind the cow)

That means using the naive way we just did 2 depth buffer lookups (this part is still fixed function and you don't include the z-test in your shaders in OpenGL/GLSL or D3D/HLSL)

(btw, the painters algo is the technical name for using a z-buffer for rendering 3D and is not the name of the technigue I proposed)

So you may end up Z-testing the same pixel on the screen hundreds of times in a complex scene. The only way to avoid this is to write some extra complicated and unnecessary code that orders everything before rendering it.

Yes, my technique would make 4 Z-tests instead of just 2, but doing a Z-test is really quick- much cheaper than all of the texture fetches and etc that would happen if you rendered the same pixel twice.

Originally posted by sunandshadow

2 from the same game

Why is that frowny elvish dude so skinny and why does he have enormous boobies?

Originally posted by Eronakis

I don't understand why posters who put a pole looking for results and puts a random stupid option like "you smell like cabbage". Of course people will troll and choose that option. Op you're not doing your self any favors. 

 

The people of that caliber are all wow players. By doing that I can get them to not vote "No."

Originally posted by Kazuhiro
...lot longer than 2 years to die off...
...it would take 2-4 years to die...
...guess is it will die off in 4-6 years, but that is still only a wild guess.

Just LOL.

Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by l2avism

When you are trying to make your rendering more efficient, you need to be reducing the amount of computations happening and not really the amount of memory used. Basically this means reducing the amount of vertex data you feed in and also making sure that pixels on the screen are only painted to once.

You reduce the vertex count by simply storing the fine shape detail as a bumb-map/normal-map and wrapping that around a lower polygon model. This speeds things up a ton since texturing is always cheaper.

You ensure that pixels are only painted to once by exploiting the Z-buffer. Basically you render everything (that isn't transparent of course) first only to populate the Z-buffer (this can be as easy as just drawing everything with no texture) so that when you draw everything a second time with textures the Z-test will prevent pixels that would have been covered up by another pixel from ever passing through your pixel/fragment shader and burning GPU clock cycles.

You do realize that you just bumped a thread that hadn't gotten any posts in over a year, don't you?

-----

Which approach is most efficient depends greatly on the fine details of what you're trying to do, as well as the GPU architecture that you're trying to do it on.

Remember that all modern GPU architectures from both AMD and Nvidia require all memory transactions to be 128 byte aligned chunks.  For textures, they typically use a weird address order so that that 128 byte chunk is a 4x8 grid of pixels so that you can have better spatial locality.  I'd be surprised if they don't do likewise for the depth buffer, though I've never seen it explicitly stated that they do.

Furthermore, checking the depth buffer is an expensive operation.  If you need to check it for every pixel on in a 4x8 grid, fine.  But if you only need to check it for two pixels out of that fixed 4x8 grid, that's as expensive as checking it for all of them.  Additionally, it involves a memory read, which is far more finicky than a mere memory write to commit pixel colors to memory.  Write coalescers make memory writes far more forgiving if what you're doing doesn't fit that 128 byte alignment.  But you can't get around it for reads.

Worse, updating the depth buffer requires synchronization across different compute units.  If one compute unit writes a new depth value for a pixel and then another compute unit wants to read it, it had better see the updated value.  That's expensive, as different compute units can't communicate with each other very well.

Doing a texture lookup is a lot cheaper, as textures are read-only.  Each compute unit that needs a particular portion of a texture can cache it locally and not have to worry that its local copy might be wrong because a different compute unit just wrote over it.

Doing computations is much more forgiving yet.  There is the SIMD width of 32 for an Nvidia warp or 64 for an AMD wavefront on recent architectures (Fermi or later for Nvidia, GCN for AMD), but what goes on with computations within a thread doesn't have to worry about memory alignment issues.  If the 64 threads in a wavefront are 64 random, scattered pixels all over the screen, that won't slow down computations in the slightest.  It would be a huge problem for checking the depth buffer or writing anything to memory, of course, which is why GPUs generally won't do that.  But computations are far more forgiving, as you don't have to worry about memory alignment.

That's not to say that deferred rendering is never a good idea.  A lot depends on how much work has to go on in your pixel/fragment shader.  It's trivial to come up with realistic cases where it makes things faster or makes things slower.

Now, the graphics APIs and video drivers will cover up memory alignment, local data store accesses, which data gets cached where, and so forth for you so that you don't see it directly.  But if you want to make your code efficient, you'd better have some idea of what the GPU is doing.

You do know that the GPU will check the depth buffer every pixel before even touching the pixel shader under normal operation right? This is not some special trick, its how the thing actually works. It was part of the old fixed function pipeline and is still there under the cover today. It requires no work on your part. Any pixel that fails the depth test is rejected by the GPU before it fires the pixel shader. So basically the point is to render everything one with a dummy pass-thru pixel shader that does basically nothing just to set the Z values in the backbuffer and then render everything again with the real pixel shader. Because most of the pixels you send through the pipeline will now fail the depth-test you save a ton of computations.

Its called "the painters" algorithm. Unless you explicitly turn this depth test off, its always happening. This is why a tree that is behind your avatar appears behind it even though that tree may have been rendered last. The rendering programmer just sends meshes to be rendered without worrying about having to check to see whats in front or behind something.

You've went and made something simple complicated. I have no clue why you think you need to do depth lookups in the shader.

Also deferred rendering is a totally different technigue. Thats where you render into a texture all of the normals, vertex positions, texture offsets, etc and then render that onto a fullscreen quad and then use one really complex pixel shader to compute all of the lighting and bumpmapping for the entire scene there instead of when the meshes are drawn. Its waaay complicated and not what I'm talking about here.

 

I'll clear that ^ up

 

Exploiting the painters algo:

1. render everything with no texture using a pass-thru shader (in the fixed function days, you just turned off texturing and lighting)

2. render it all again with textures and shaders like normal

-this is how it was done in the 90's and up. Its a cheap and fast way to avoid painting pixels twice (cuts down on texture lookups and lighting calcs).

 

Deferred rendering:

1. render everything using a pixel shader that does nothing but linear extrapolate the results of the vertex shader. It stores the transformed vertex positions, transformed normals, and some texture data (ie, offset into a texture atlas etc) or just do the texturing here and output the resulting color. The output goes into a special texture (render to texture).

2. Render a fullscreen quad using the texture you rendered into earlier. The pixel shader for this quad will do all of the lighting and bumpmaping and any other shader fanciness (like bloom, blur, etc) based upon the normals and vertex positions stored in the texture.

- because all of the hard work happens in step 2 and only happens once per pixel, this cuts down on computations.

 

The Ordinary way:

1. Just render everything as usual. If something in the background gets rendered first, it will be drawn entirely. When something in front of it gets rendered, those already drawn pixels are now redrawn. The shaders are called both times. This leads to alot of computations being wasted on fragments that the user won't ever see.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Originally posted by skeaser
Originally posted by l2avism

next...

I'll give you a clue, it came out in 1995. It is considered the first 3D MMORPG.

I'm going to guess Meridian 59, in the Badlands...(it's in the title bar)

 

I had to nerf the dungeon to keep people from quitting this game. Lets keep the game going. Post screenshots.

next...

I'll give you a clue, it came out in 1995. It is considered the first 3D MMORPG.

After WoW dies in 2 years, will the genre finally evolve and enjoyable games will be available?
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

15 years ago, if you want to play a MMORPG, you have no choice... if you want to experience all the content including high end raiding, your real life will be greatly affected.

Nowadays, you can experience all the content you pay for at different difficulty levels depending on the time your able to invest in the game.

Now, the "hardcore nerds" playing games like a second job and who enjoyed standing on the city mailbox in full epics to impress the noobs may not like that change, but for everyone else, aka the vast majority, it's the best thing that ever happened to the genre. And guess what... you can still impress noobs... with your full mythic level raid gear, while the casuals are happy with LFR or normal gear.

Today : best of both worlds.

Yesterday: elitist nonsense that won't come back in a mainstream MMO, ever.

 

Originally posted by Quizzical

Because players who have no skill want to win, too.

But it's far from being the case that all MMORPGs require no skill.  Many MMORPGs require a little bit of skill, but not a lot.  This is most noticeable when pugging with people who lack that little bit of skill.

And a handful of MMORPGs require a lot of skill.  The best examples I'm aware of are Puzzle Pirates and Spiral Knights, not coincidentally, both made by Three Rings.

What you call "skill" was mostly a matter of "time".

 

Actually, old games weren't about acquiring bling. People couldn't inspect your gear or anything, so standing around in rare gear meant nothing as nobody knew what your were wearing was rare.

 

It sounds like your entire MMO experience revolves around one game, WoW. In that case the guys standing at the mailbox bought those characters on ebay. The guys who are good at the game are probably at work. The only time they spent was the time it took to punch in a few credit cards.

Usually hard core end gamers are in their thirties. They avoid capital cities due to lag.

Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by l2avism
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by l2avism

 


Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by l2avism Nobody actually likes trinity. They put up with it because its the best that PVE MMO developers can come up with given their complete lack of original or innovative thinking. Older MMO's did not have trinity. It's something that came out of EQ, then WOW cloned EQ2...
  Wait... What? This simple statement invalidates the entirety of the lecture offered. Being told 'how it is' by folks that demonstrate a visible lack of knowing how it is, or even how it was.
Ha! EQ was the inspiration for WOW. The WOW devs were even frequent EQ players. Could you try not being so ignorant for a day?

Sony is taking credit for the existence of the hottest MMORPG around, World of Warcraft, saying that had it not been for their Everquest(EverQuest II), WoW would not have existed to wow the gaming world as it does today. Lead designer Ryan Barker shares some choice words on the matter.

 

"That's definitely true," he said when asked if he agreed with the contention that WoW would not have existed it EverQuest was not released"

 

Dude... Read what was wrote. You are looking silly.

Yes, WoW was inspired heavily by EQ, that's a clear given. Everyone knows that.

What you said though was that WoW was an EQ2 clone. And that makes your statement ridiculous. 

 

TBH though, I would even go as far as to say that if you think WoW 'cloned' even EQ then you never played EQ and are just another internet search 'expert'.

 

Dude! Is your reading comprehension that bad?

WoW was released right after EQ2 and was intended to compete directly with it. Let me quote my quote of the EQ2 dev interview "Sony is taking credit for the existence of the hottest MMORPG around, World of Warcraft, saying that had it not been for their Everquest(EverQuest II), WoW would not have existed".

The beta UI in wow even looked like an exact copy of the EQ2 UI.

 

 

If WoW had "cloned" EQ2, it would have failed its launch just like EQ2 did. It's actually EQ2 which frenetically patched in the missing quest content compared to WoW during the first year to try to catch up.

So the truth is that EQ2 had to basically clone WoW after launch to try to recover from the failed launch and the very bad popularity of the game.

 

What you said is only half true. Wow also had to patch in more quests because at the beginning you had to grind mobs to make it from 50 to 60 because they didn't have enough quests per level to ding.

The reason why EQ2 had such a bad launch was because EQ1'ers were expecting a better version of EQ1. That and it didn't even have PVP.

WoW almost went the no-pvp route but they changed their minds. The reason why wow had 2 million players in vanilla was because of all of the warcraft fans who came over. Most of the players who came in from other games quickly quit WoW and went back. It wasn't until TBC that the population reached 6 million.

pic related, its me back before I quit.

I think I spent more time breaking the game with bugs than actually playing...that and making a killing on the AH by having toons on the hoard and alliance side (bought the ores from the chineese farmers on one side and sold for double on the other :p)

OK, the rules:

Someone must post a screenshot of a player character from any MMO.

Everyone else must guess the game, race, class,.

 

I'll start first

Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by l2avism

 


Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by l2avism Nobody actually likes trinity. They put up with it because its the best that PVE MMO developers can come up with given their complete lack of original or innovative thinking. Older MMO's did not have trinity. It's something that came out of EQ, then WOW cloned EQ2...
  Wait... What? This simple statement invalidates the entirety of the lecture offered. Being told 'how it is' by folks that demonstrate a visible lack of knowing how it is, or even how it was.
Ha! EQ was the inspiration for WOW. The WOW devs were even frequent EQ players. Could you try not being so ignorant for a day?

Sony is taking credit for the existence of the hottest MMORPG around, World of Warcraft, saying that had it not been for their Everquest(EverQuest II), WoW would not have existed to wow the gaming world as it does today. Lead designer Ryan Barker shares some choice words on the matter.

 

"That's definitely true," he said when asked if he agreed with the contention that WoW would not have existed it EverQuest was not released"

 

Dude... Read what was wrote. You are looking silly.

Yes, WoW was inspired heavily by EQ, that's a clear given. Everyone knows that.

What you said though was that WoW was an EQ2 clone. And that makes your statement ridiculous. 

 

TBH though, I would even go as far as to say that if you think WoW 'cloned' even EQ then you never played EQ and are just another internet search 'expert'.

 

Dude! Is your reading comprehension that bad?

WoW was released right after EQ2 and was intended to compete directly with it. Let me quote my quote of the EQ2 dev interview "Sony is taking credit for the existence of the hottest MMORPG around, World of Warcraft, saying that had it not been for their Everquest(EverQuest II), WoW would not have existed".

The beta UI in wow even looked like an exact copy of the EQ2 UI.

 

Originally posted by greenbow54

Go play older games? No thanks. The graphics suck, the gameplay is dated, and they have as much depth as a pencil drawing. Sorry, take off your rose colored glasses, because they're cracked.

You have that reversed. Older games had depth. So much depth that the typical player never actually saw the entire game.


Originally posted by ozmono I started playing MMORPGs in 2005 and yet I'm a sandbox gamer. I've played UO and pre-cu SWG emulations. I've also played and supported many sandbox games that came after. Not all of us who starting playing them in 2005 love games like WoW and need condescending education about the alternatives. While I'm at it, you could have atleast tried to make the point as to why your preferred type of game is better rather then just claiming they are riff raff and implying as a result that you are somehow better than them and they are guilty or "destroying the genre". That's just nonsense, video game preferences are just that, preferences.
 

You didn't read the entire post. You just read the title, got mad, replied with this and basically said that you did what I recommended doing :o.

This:


You mad? Don't get mad. Educate yourself. Go download and try playing older games. Through enlightenment you can cast aside that cloak of inferiority and exchange it for a golden cloak of wisdom.

Saying that the genre isn't destroyed is fairly ignorant though. Haven't you noticed that the failure rate is like 90% these days?

People have basically given up on MMOs.

 

Originally posted by Octagon7711
Doesn't that mean I can walk right into opponents bases being invulnerable and all? 

For a limited time. Remember, its a short duration stacking buff so as long as 20 dudes aren't hitting you at once then no. But if 50 mages all cast nukes at you at the same time, then you will live. Maybe even kill a few of them.

Originally posted by rojoArcueid

opinion and ignorance are not the same thing.

 

In before the lock.

 

Is an opinion based on ignorance not also ignorance?

If I drink my milk with peanutt butter does that not also make me a cabbage?


Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by l2avism Nobody actually likes trinity. They put up with it because its the best that PVE MMO developers can come up with given their complete lack of original or innovative thinking. Older MMO's did not have trinity. It's something that came out of EQ, then WOW cloned EQ2...
  Wait... What? This simple statement invalidates the entirety of the lecture offered. Being told 'how it is' by folks that demonstrate a visible lack of knowing how it is, or even how it was.
Ha! EQ was the inspiration for WOW. The WOW devs were even frequent EQ players.

Could you try not being so ignorant for a day?

 


Sony is taking credit for the existence of the hottest MMORPG around, World of Warcraft, saying that had it not been for their Everquest(EverQuest II), WoW would not have existed to wow the gaming world as it does today. Lead designer Ryan Barker shares some choice words on the matter.

"That's definitely true," he said when asked if he agreed with the contention that WoW would not have existed it EverQuest was not released"


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