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Originally posted by Squal'Zell

so dont give me that BS that it takes years to compete with the top dogs.

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You don't compete with the top dogs, and you never will, unless you join them. I'm not sure what you think "top dog" means in this game if you believe that, because "a couple of systems" isn't much. My point is that an alliance named by you will never occupy a large power bloc; only pre-existing alliances or reformations of those alliances under a different banner will be able to do so. That's not an insult — it's a fact of life for you, me, and indeed all "newer" EVE players.

It's no one's fault, really. Nullsec is essentially a new world that was colonized long ago. Those old veterans continue playing EVE; those who do quit are replaced by new blood from within their own alliances. This ultimately means that grassroots dreams of nullsec domination are destined to fail, barring a miracle.

Switching gears for a moment, it's easy to say, "There are plenty of nullsec corps/alliances without skill point requirements." I already knew that, though your definition of "plenty" may vary from my own, and these often tend to be the smaller corporations/alliances. From my point of view, they are very much a minority compared to those that either have SP requirements, or have special entry restrictions (Goonfleet requires Something Awful membership, Test Alliance Please Ignore requires a three-month minimum Reddit membership, etc.).

Yes, anyone with a brain can get into nullsec within a month of starting EVE, but that's beside the point I'm trying to make here.

Also, when people say that new players can't "catch up," they're at least partially correct, even though they're usually talking about Skill Points. Anyone can purchase a veteran pilot for ISK, certainly, but opportunities to "get in on the ground floor" are more-or-less gone now.

The T2 BPO lottery, for instance, was over and done with years ago. They're primarily in the hands of large alliances now — with some exceptions, I'm sure, but since T2 BPOs basically print ISK for their owners, they're rarely available for sale, and incredibly expensive when they are.

Nullsec is already fully settled, and the alliances holding territory there become more firmly entrenched with the passing of each year. Certainly nullsec has wars and shake-ups, but even when a large alliance falls (which is rare), generally its remnants pick up the pieces, reorganize themselves and continue to occupy space in nullsec.

What this means is that newer, grassroots corporations and alliances stand little chance of ever gaining their own glory in nullsec. Someone put a name to the Band of Brothers alliance all those years ago, and that name became synonymous with nullsec domination. That can't happen anymore, because due to the way the game works, new players who wish to pursue a life in 0.0 are simply shuffled into pre-existing nullsec alliances.

Speaking of which, and to support my point, BoB still exists. It's just not called BoB anymore. And they still hold approximately the same space they have for the better part of a decade.

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Originally posted by batolemaeus

Err, I personally know quite a few corps that let newbies in AND pay for their ships. In 0.0.

Eve University opens a lot of doors for new pilots in that regard. Go to Eve Uni, then later try to get into some newbie friendly 0.0 corp. It usually works quite well.

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I'd like to revisit this post for just a moment.

EVE University or no EVE University, 95% of the nullsec and/or general PvP corps I see recruiting anywhere (threads on Scrapheap Challenge and the official forums, in-game channels, or by word of mouth — take your pick) have a 10-15 million skill point minimum requirement, and far more in some cases. It's almost as bad as World of Warcraft's "gear score" garbage, and I believe SP requirements are even higher and more common now than when I retired from EVE in 2008.

This isn't a complaint. In 2007, I organized and co-founded a corporation that still exists today and is part of an alliance. They're mostly carebears, which is why I left them to pursue a life of piracy, but I made it happen. I have no difficulty gaining entry into PvP corporations myself. I know how to play the game, I enjoy throwing away ISKies in the name of fun, I'm sociable and well-spoken, and I'm charismatic on voice chat servers. Also, I still have plenty of old favors to call in and contacts to chat up.

Now, if I can hardly find any nullsec corps without SP requirements, how are new players going to find them? Have you taken a gander at EVE University lately? It can literally take weeks just to be properly accepted and integrated into the E Uni of today. It's pretty damned crowded, and I get the impression it's turning into a real cluster****.

Once again, let me stress that I'm not saying new players can't get started in EVE. I'm simply saying it's not all guns and roses. It can be downright annoying.

That can cause players to try EVE and not stay, which is what this thread's about. It's not CCP's fault, either — it's elitist players' fault, in my opinion.

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Originally posted by Squal'Zell
alll this under the asumption that bigger is better

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Wrong. You're the one making assumptions here.

This is under the (correct) assumption that mission running is something many rookies will try in order to earn their first few millions, and in that case — yes, bigger most definitely is better. Bigger guns break stronger tanks faster, and bigger tanks survive stronger guns for longer.

I myself fly only Amarr frigates and (occasionally) cruisers on my PvP character. I repeat, I only fly frigates and cruisers, and non-FOTM ones at that. But that's really not the best way to get started in EVE if you're using only one account.

Where is someone going to make ISK while they focus on PvP frigate-related skills, "Squal'Zell"? Other than relying on their corp (which is fine, but not feasible if they can't find a good fit corp right away)? Are they going to make money trading without any trade skills, no capital to speak of, and little experience? Are they going to make money from L1-L2 missions, focusing on those frigates? Are they going to make it mining in a Bantam? Will they earn it farming datacores with their nonexistent alts? Perhaps they should print some ISK from their T2 BPOs.

So basically you're saying that if someone joins a corporation right away, they can focus on frigates. For reals? Gosh, I didn't realize that. Thanks for enlightening me.

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Originally posted by Kyleran

Not sure what EVE you played.  I was flying cruisers before my 21 day trial ran out, BC's in the first month and running level 3's which I salvaged and made definitely more than chump change.

Since the game was so new, there was so much to learn that it sort of boggled me so I don't think I needed much else to occupy my time back then.

By the 3-4 month mark I was flying poorly fitted BS's and move out to 0.0 an dby the 5th month I was in a Steath bomber and flying with a Black OPS group.  Month 6 saw me POS busting in poor man's dreads (Armor tanked Ravens) and during this time I was part of seeing one alliance crash and burn and helped battle the strongest alliance in the game at the time (BOB).

There's so much a player can do in those first 6 months, if only they don't focus so much on what they can't do yet.

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Hello, Kyleran. You are one of most tireless defenders of EVE's faults at MMORPG.com. I've watched you post about the game for years.

This time, I'm going to make you earn your keep. Quite frankly, there are two sides to this argument, and the optimistic side is not the only valid one. I'll be playing the Devil's advocate. Let's discuss those first couple of months in which you trained your learning skills, acquired implants, trained for cruisers and battlecruisers, ran missions, and salvaged wrecks. Guess what? I did precisely the same thing — Caldari pilot, worked on learning skills, got +4 learning implants across the board, worked my way from frigates up to a Drake, and had a nice little Catalyst for salvaging. After approximately three months, I was running L4 missions (slowly).

It took my Caldari pilot over three months to field a Drake with all affecting skills being L4 (L5 in some cases), and that was for one ship for the sole purpose of running missions. If you're PvPing during this time frame, you'll be doing it in crappy frigates or really crappy cruisers (with the crappiness decreasing slowly over time). They'll be crappy because a really good fit with nice stats for any ship virtually requires a metric crapton of L4 skills, and at least a few L5s.

The problem is simply that missions are only slightly less boring than mining. The only major difference is that instead of mining asteroids, you're mining NPCs and wrecks, and instead of warping to belts, you're warping through deadspace. That is mainly my opinion, mind you. Perhaps some people find mission running more stimulating than watching paint dry (as you can tell, I'm not one of them).

Meanwhile, you can't try CovOps, you can't try Interceptors, you can't do EWar, you can't mine or haul (without another account), you can't work on corp leadership... in fact, you pretty much can't work on anything but a Kestrel, Caracal and Drake and related fittings for three or four months.

I'm not saying it's impossible to enjoy EVE for the first few months (I didn't say six, I said "a few"). I'm saying you'll NEED a corporation, or at least a chat room. I'm saying you'll NEED to get into the mindset of enjoying just learning about the game, even if your actual stats don't allow you to do 90% of the stuff you might like to do yet. Some people need variety in GAMEPLAY right away, though.

I'm actually on your side here, even though our opinions differ; you just don't realize it. I've always admired EVE, even after I retired. Now I'm back, and I love it all over again. It's an amazing game. But getting started isn't all guns and roses.

If your character is primarily a pilot (i.e., not an industrialist, trading character or corporate leader), your EVE regimen might roughly look like this:

Month 1: Gameplay Basics, Learning Skills & Implants, Frigate Competency, Basic Skills

Month 2-3: Cruisers, Battlecruisers, Finish L4 Learning Skills, Basic & Intermediate Skills

Month 4-6: T2 Frigates/Cruisers, or T3 Cruisers, or Battleships, Get Needed Skills to 4 (5 in some cases)

Month 7-12: T2 Battlecruisers or Battleships, Intermediate & Advanced Skills, Advanced Game Concepts

Year 2: Continue improving skills (to 5 in some cases), diversify skillsets, possibly train for capital ship

I realize that's very rough. A lot of it could be switched around or changed entirely. But the point is, after just one year you can be flying a decent range of respectably powerful ships, or even have amazing skills focused on one specific ship, like a T3 cruiser (though I don't recommend this, as you will get bored). There are surely veterans who don't have a bunch of Vs on T3-related skills yet.

Now, I myself have stated in this very thread that you have to wait a long-ass time to get into decent ships with respectable fittings, and that remains true. Veterans who say "THERE ARE SO MANY THINGS TO DO IN THE FIRST FEW MONTHS!" when you have access to frigates and are in the process of working toward something better are being silly. All you can do is learn the game, survive, and make chump change. It takes money to do many things in EVE, and you won't have much for a while.

Only other people can make the experience tolerable. Make some friends. Join EVE University. Try getting into a nullsec corp early and learning from them. Try to get pirates to take you under their wing and teach you, use you as cannon fodder. Chat on various chat channels. KEEP TRYING. Keep looking for cool people you like until you find them. DO NOT GIVE UP AFTER TWO DAYS. Do not give up after the first, second, fifth or tenth corp you don't fit into.

If you try to solo your first six months of EVE, you will quit. I repeat, you will quit EVE if you try to solo for the first six months. This cannot be stated enough.

Originally posted by batolemaeus

 

Err, I personally know quite a few corps that let newbies in AND pay for their ships. In 0.0.

Eve University opens a lot of doors for new pilots in that regard. Go to Eve Uni, then later try to get into some newbie friendly 0.0 corp. It usually works quite well.

I'm aware of EVE Uni. I spent time in that corporation myself ages ago — it's where I first learned some advanced concepts of station trading, among other things. I'm sure you're correct in that some corporations don't have stringent SP/time played requirements. I've been away from EVE for two years, so perhaps I'm misremembering. One thing I'm certain of: Sharp-minded, promising pilots who seem to learn quickly can get in almost anywhere they want, even into corporations that otherwise have SP requirements.

I still say claiming you can get into PvP "in a few months" is a bit of a stretch, though. It's somewhat accurate if the person wants to fly T2 frigates in PvP, because training CovOps-, Interceptor- or EWar-related skills to a respectable level that allows a decent fitting isn't terribly difficult. CovOps and Interceptors remain useful for a character's entire EVE career, so that's good... and yes, everyone should learn to fly a T1 frigate properly before moving on to something else.

If you're aiming for anything beyond PvP-centered T2 frigates and T1 cruisers/battlecruisers, however, you're going to be waiting a nice big ol' long time before you can not only fly what you want, but do so with a proper fit. 

Heh. Rhevin, your post reads like a laundry list of bad decisions — I'm not trying to insult you, but it's a comical read for experienced EVE players. I never had that many problems starting out, myself, but I was a lot more cautious when I first began playing. The courier traps in particular didn't fool me for a second. That reminds me of one of EVE's minor problems, though:

The courier and bounty systems are completely stupid, and CCP will likely never fix them. There are far more scams on the courier list than there are legitimate contracts. Some telltale signs are a cargo mass of 0.01m3 or perfectly even quantities (though perfectly even quantities can also be legitimate), too much pay for a short route with relatively low collateral (like 2.5m reward/5m collateral/15 jumps), ridiculously high collateral with a route that leads directly into 0.0, or hell, almost any route that leads into 0.0.

Veterans will say, "LOL, so what? Scamming's allowed, et cetera." Yes it is, and that's fine, but the courier system should cater to the needs of legitimate customers who need their crap moved, not serve primarily as a repository for PvP traps that only fool (and grief) new players. 

As for the bounty system: Pirate gets huge bounty. Pirate switches to a skill clone with no implants. Friend of pirate pods him and collects the cash. Pirate and friend split cash. Bounty completed; the person with the bounty on his head just got paid... by the people who put the bounty on him.

The only ways to "trade" that actually make real ISK are blockade running and station trading. In blockade running, you move war supplies from highsec to hotspots in lowsec and nullsec, because that stuff is cheap in highsec, but sells for much more out in dangerous areas where it is really needed. Station trading is more boring than watching paint dry but involves buying low (while competing with 1,000 other station traders) and selling high (also while competing with 1,000 other station traders). This means you have to constantly check your computer changing your buy and sell orders by increments of .01 ISK. Right, it would be more fun not to play at all, but you can make a crapton of ISK doing it if you're autistic enough.

Finally, when EVE players say you can get into PvP right away, they actually mean you can be slightly useful cannon fodder in a frigate if you can find a corp that doesn't suck and you pay for your own frigates and fittings. Decent pirate, merc and nullsec corps won't even consider letting you join for MONTHS (perhaps years) — not even always because of skill, but also because they fear being infiltrated by a newly-made alt. However, if you contact and talk to these people directly for a while (on an unofficial EVE forum, perhaps), you may be able to gain their trust earlier.

Oh, who the Hell am I kidding?

I just found out that my sister's boyfriend (who recently graduated from VMI and is a pretty awesome fella) has been playing EVE for a while now, as a complete carebear, unfortunately.

Now's as good a time as any strap myself back in the saddle. Good thing I use a password manager to keep track of all my various MMO and Internet logins and passwords... I should still have all my old stuff, plus some really massive skill I set to train before I retired.

Originally posted by Malcanis

There is a skill queue now. Just saying.

I know, I heard about that.

I've actually considered returning to EVE to try something slightly outside the box (but by no means unheard of): Creating new industrial characters, infiltrating highsec corporations, winning their trust, and then screwing them over royally as soon as I have the access and the opportunity. I'd take ships, blueprints, modules, minerals — everything I could get my hands on — and transfer it to a "main" who primarily sits around training skills for whatever ship(s) I want to fly outside of my sinister shenanigans.

Or perhaps I could be interested in mercenary corp work, taking contracts from other corps, wardeccing shrinking violet highsec guilds, harassing them... I'm not in it for the griefing, mind you, but rather the challenge and excitement. Screwing people over within the boundaries and rules of the game is a pretty interesting concept.

Well, I played EVE for a little over a year and a half. I began in an industrial corp founded by myself and about a dozen other buds (most of whom were also just starting out), and somehow ended up as the leader of that outfit. I soon had two characters: A miner and a future interceptor pilot (miner for cash, interceptor pilot to have fun with that cash). Surprising, eh?

A few months later, I was starting to get pretty aggravated with the game. The fairly slow pace of the game in general got on my nerves sometimes. The need to be on my computer at regular intervals so that I'd always have a skill training was quite annoying. The long wait to train for the ships I truly wanted was a tad bothersome. You current EVE players can rant and preach about how there's "so much to do" while waiting to qualify for ships all you want, but it still sucks, and there can be an awfully long wait before some dreams come true. Interceptors are aiming fairly low. And the person in question could easily have become quite skilled with his current ship(s) long before he can reasonably fly a more advanced ship.

About five months after I started, I registered on an unofficial but well-known EVE forum (I forget the name, now). A month later, on the sixth month since I started, someone from a fairly prominent pirate corporation was impressed with my forum posts or some such nonsense, and invited me onto his corp's Ventrilo server. We hit it off, and to make a long story short, I bid a friendly adieu to my industrial corp and struck off into lowsec.

After that, EVE became awesome. Vent was tons of fun, which helped pass the downtime. I learned quickly, and I enjoyed the adrenaline rush of committing acts of piracy. The best thing about piracy is that if you're in a decent corp, you can just play the game to have fun. There's no grinding to speak of; you commit piracy so that you can get better stuff with which to commit piracy. It's a self-sustaining, all-in-one profession... for the most part, anyway.

After a year, I just grew bored with the game. And the reasons I won't return are all summed up in my second paragraph above. Veterans can say those are all crappy, invalid reasons and that I'm a bad person, but I would have quit EVE that sixth month if I hadn't become a pirate, for those reasons. And I don't think I'd like to continue piracy anymore, so....

Please pardon any inaccuracies in my descriptions of the game. It's been almost two years since I last played.

Star Wars Galaxies veterans — of which I am one — speak of the game with great reverence, and for good reason. Yes, the game was bleeding subs. It had many flaws, and yes, that was part of the reason it was bleeding subs.

However, the primary reason Star Wars Galaxies was bleeding subs is simply that it was a hardcore game, and your average Star Wars fan is not a hardcore MMORPG player. They'd play for a while, then unsubscribe. Once World of Warcraft came along, SOE looked at SWG's declining subs, looked at World of Warcraft's success, and then made a gamble that didn't pay off. They tried to graft WoW's casual-friendly, new-school formula onto SWG, and the rest is history. The lesson learned was that you can't magically transmogrify your preexisting game into World of Warcraft and rake in big bucks.

Despite all of its flaws, Star Wars Galaxies had many virtues. The skill-based character advancement system is well known. You could own and operate a variety of land vehicles, and take friends along for the ride. You could bio-engineer and raise a variety of pets. You could select a house, construct it in a location of your choosing, and decorate it as you saw fit. You and your friends could build a functional little city together. You could construct your own starfighter and fly it into combat, fly with wingmen, or fly together as a crew on a larger ship. You could set up resource collectors to collect resources, craft a huge variety of items, and even sell them from your own vendor... and much more.

If you don't understand why those features are amazing to a certain niche of gamers, particularly in a science-fiction/Star Wars setting, then there's no sense in me trying to explain it to you, because you'll never understand.

I remember all of this clearly after many years away from SWG. You can still do most of these things in SWG today, but the skill system and the freedom it represented is gone, the game is stuffed full of five years' worth of stagnation baggage, playing a Jedi will be a hollow experience since you'll always know you're not a "real" Jedi, and I believe the devs have added a number of highly annoying, gimmicky lottery grinds in recent years.

Tabula Rasa was the worst failure overall, in my opinion.

Dark and Light was utter trash "developed" by a fly-by-nite team of swindlers. Tabula Rasa, on the other hand, was a AAA effort with Richard Garriot at the helm. It failed miserably. To this day, I can't comprehend why people still defend that game. It was painfully shallow, crafting (if you can call it that) was tacked on as an afterthought, it suffered from a serious lack of variety and content in every imaginable area, and I personally feel that the art direction was rather bad.

There was no "fix" for Tabula Rasa. It wouldn't have become a great game after some "tweaking." Nothing short of scrapping 80-90% of it and starting over from scratch with a fresh approach (...a tabula rasa, if you'll pardon the pun) could possibly have saved it.

I'm not bitter anymore, though — and I mean that. All I feel for Tabula Rasa at this point is a vague sense of sadness and discomfort, a lingering bad taste in my mouth.

Heh, I popped into this forum because I suddenly realized today: "Hey, that's odd. I haven't heard anything about Earthrise in like a year."

Sure enough, I see that there have already been several release delays (from Q2 2010, then to Q3, then to Q4, and now to Q? 20??), and that there's hardly been any new information about the game for at least six months and counting.

Pretty much par for the course with non-AAA MMORPG development, eh? I'm praying Earthrise will be the savior of science fiction MMORPGs, but I said the same prayers before Tabula Rasa released, and well... just thinking about the wasted potential of that game makes me feel bad, feel DIRTY. Hope Earthrise survives its release and turns out to be the savior of the damned.

I'm sorry, why is this game looking ridiculously good?

I just looked over the entire list of features on the Rifts: Planes of Telara forums, and they all look fairly standard save for a few noteworthy differences. You've got a level-based system, skill trees, DPS/ranged/tank/healer archetypes, two factions, six races, character classes (with a twist, granted; there will be 32, which is a lot, but will they all be viable/unique?), crafting system barely touched on (shallow?), no player housing at launch, standard hotbar combat... all sounds incredibly familiar to me.

I guess the rifts system, lack of intense instancing and other unique features might be compelling, or maybe the game's backstory. But it's not exactly jumping out at me saying, "HEY! Wow, I'm gonna be awesome!"

Did I miss something?

Originally posted by Nirwyl

Ah if only.

Yes, that would be wonderful, and nothing like it will be happening in any online game this decade, nor the next, either... unless a crack indie development team funded by an eccentric billionaire makes a miracle happen.

So much wasted potential. Humankind can put a man on the moon, a human being created Star Trek, and human scientists invented computers, but no one can create the ultimate multiplayer Star Trek game, even though all the tools and technology and backstory absolutely do exist to make it possible.

Well, guess it's back to twenty-sided dice, rule books, miniatures, and hex maps... you know, the good ol' nerdy tabletop games where you can actually experience gameplay that doesn't involve killing five hundred thousand boars (or Klingons) and saying "lol" to a bunch of douchebags with look-alike avatars.

At this point, most of us with at least two brain cells to rub together are perfectly aware that "Free to Play!" actually means you won't enjoy the game unless you're a paying customer, and also that you won't beat the other guy in PvP unless you spend more money on item mall merchandise than he does. We all know "Free to Try!" or "Free to Start!" would be far more accurate descriptions.

In a way, though, the slightly dishonest F2P label has become a double-edged sword for developers of F2P games. Among informed gamers, "F2P" is now associated with games of inferior quality, slimy milking techniques (giving players tiny inventory spaces they must pay to upgrade, or making combat unbearable without potions that cost $$, for example), and obese teenage shyguys with Mommy's Mastercard at their disposal curb-stomping nabs with a $500 +20 longsword of Chee-Tos from the item mall.

I actually play a (very expensive, if you want to win) "F2P" game, but it's a text MUD. These old MUDs don't use cheap milking techniques, they're high-quality games (at least, they are if you enjoy MUDs), and they can still be immensely enjoyable if you never pay a dime, as long as you don't expect to compete at the highest levels of PvP combat. They're totally up-front and friendly about this, instead of being shady and seedy like many of the F2P graphical MMORPGs.

And that's the real problem with F2P graphical MMORPGs, as I see it: They often use cheap milking techniques, they're usually of poor quality, and you will literally suffer and be miserable just playing on a day-to-day basis unless you pay. That's why we, as gamers, resent the term "F2P," I think.

But to sum up, who cares? Let them use "F2P." We all know what it means: There's a 95% chance this game will be a piece of ****. It helps us know what to stay away from. If they called them something other than F2P, it wouldn't matter. They'd still be sucky and shady games.

"Take off your nostalgia goggles" is such a crap argument. I hate it, I hate the fact that people use it so often in regard to computer games... and yet, there is some merit to it, I must admit.

For example, scientific studies have shown that human being's musical tastes "crystallize" not long after their teenage years. I'm 27 years old, so I enjoy listening to alternative rock bands such as Bush, Nirvana, Stone Temple Pilots, Soundgarden, and other bands from my own formative years.

I'm not a fan of modern alternative music, however. It sounds girly to me, "pussified" if you will, and I just find it completely unappealing. By the same token, someone like Negentropy may enjoy Pink Floyd, Grateful Dead, and Alice Cooper, but not Bush or Nirvana.

(I actually like those three older bands, too, and I don't hate ALL modern music, which proves that there are exceptions to the rule.)

So:

Older gamers have a "crystallized" idea of which computer and video games they like to play. Since old-school games become increasingly rare as the years march on, old-school gamers become irritated and bitter. Because they like the older games better, they begin to think of the newer games as being inferior.

Personally, the late 1980s, 1990s, and very early 2000s are what I consider to be the "golden years" of computer gaming. That age is now dead.

It's not just "nostalgia goggles" or "you've changed over the years." I played Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri for the very first time a few years ago (a game from the 1990s), and I LOVED it. I can't have nostalgia for a game I've never played, can I?

Of course not. My actual nostalgia is for the game design philosophies and gameplay of those older games, not just memories of my teenage years connected to a certain game or whatever.

They really don't make them like they used to, unfortunately. I buy only a few computer games per year nowadays, and by 2020, I'll most likely have stopped gaming altogether. Only books and board games retain that classic feeling decade after decade, I've found.

MMORPG.com has chosen to focus on graphical, client-based MMOs.

Multi-player browser games are simply beyond the scope of this site. They're a niche category. There are plenty of text MUDs out there with all the features of a graphical MMORPG, lacking only graphics, but those are also a niche category.

Wow, the cheese factor in this thread is off the charts. Look at all of you, pretending to be MMORPG Buddhas: "It's not about the destination, it's about the journey." and "It doesn't matter how long the level grind is, it's the quality of the game." Any minute now, two or three of you will probably reach enlightenment. We're not worthy!

I'm snobbier and more arrogant than the entire lot of you rolled together, but even I don't put on airs that much. Quit griefing this guy's thread and either answer the question, or go somewhere else with your self-important, holier-than-thou platitudes.

I'm not saying you don't believe what you're posting, but clearly it's not the intent of this thread to brag about your Buddha-like tolerance for MMO grinds.

* * * * * *

Anyway, OP, my tolerance for reaching max level is about five or six months (of neither hardcore nor casual grinding), though it could be more or less, depending on the game. Since "grind" is basically work inflicted on the players by developers to keep them subscribed longer, I do have my limits.