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Originally posted by Malcanis

So dont tell me that it can't be done, because that's how I know for a fact it can be done: I did it.

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I've never said that. I've never even implied it. This isn't a black-and-white issue, and it's not about what's 100% possible or 100% impossible. My main point from the beginning of this thread has been, "You can do it, BUT: there's a catch. This is that catch."

Your arguments haven't been completely straightforward. You used Goonfleet and Test Alliance Please Ignore as examples of how newbies can forge their own empire, without bothering to mention that both of these alliances had hundreds of pilots who shared an out-of-game community beforehand. Pretty big damn catch, don't you think? Yeah, I notice you didn't rebut this in your last response.

That's my problem. Some of you veterans tell people what they can do, and leave it at that — others are worse, and present candy-coated nonsense. When it comes to MMORPGs, what's involved in accomplishing something and the odds you'll face matter.

The number-one biggest concern amongst nearly all prospective EVE pilots is, "But I'll never be able to catch up in skill points." Does this mean they shouldn't play the game? No, but the statement does have merit, in more ways than I think even you realize. They usually say this for the wrong reasons (i.e., the strength of a single PvP ship), but that doesn't make it untrue.

Veterans can simply purchase alts with any number of skills. This means if a rookie spends time skilling up for blockade runners, freighters, industrialists, or even CovOps, it's a waste of time as far as "qualifying" for a serious PvP corp. Everyone and their dog in a serious PvP corp either has these skills themselves, or an alt who does. In fact, alliances get in trouble rather frequently for account sharing such utility characters.

What does that mean? It means if you want to PvP, that is all you will be training for. For a WHILE. Because really, all that matters is whether you can fly a combat ship during a given fleet op.

And when a corporation expects you to either be at a certain advanced level of training, or to get there as quickly as you can as a major aspect of your membership, then clearly "catching up" is a factor.

Well, the main point here is that Rookie Help is in bad shape and needs to be redesigned. It can't accommodate all the new pilots properly; the text zooms by at a breakneck pace (there were over 2,800 people in there last I checked), and the ISD volunteers can't possibly answer every question, or even a majority of them.

A good corp is essential, but you have to be patient and discriminating in order to locate one you can stick with. There are corps full of imbeciles, corps that exist mainly for the CEO to leech taxes from naïve rookies, and decent corps that simply won't be a good fit for you (this means all carebear corps since you're PvP-oriented).

Do not ever accept a random, unsolicited invitation to join a corporation (i.e., someone starts a convo with you and says, "hey u want a corp bro???"). Never meet someone in lowsec or nullsec carrying all your assets in a Badger until you've physically been accepted into the corporation and gotten to know the members a bit.

The most accessible option if you want to jump right into PvP is Red vs. Blue. The second most accessible option is Eve University — second because it takes between two to four weeks to even see a recruitment officer, so patience is required (and persistence, once you're at the top of the queue).

The third option is to find a for-real pirate, nullsec, or wormhole corporation that will take you on as a rookie, either because they're rookie-friendly or because they like you enough to overlook your low skill point count.

You have to use caution here, too, because like any other corporation, some PvP corps are just terrible — which is hard to judge if you're new — and as with all corporations, some may simply be a bad fit for you.

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Originally posted by TheHatter

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Originally posted by DoktorTeufel

In order to fix the Rookie Help system, CCP needs to split it into four separate channels and ensure that at least two knowledgeable staff members or volunteers are in each of them at all times.

TheHatter is right: Never use Rookie Help for anything, except possibly to see text flying by at improbable speeds, or for a good laugh at the terrible advice being given out there when you know what you're doing.

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I think they should actually pay the mods in the Rookie Channel. To me, it looks like they are being paid in ISK if they are being paid at all. 

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I was thinking the exact same thing — offer them a proper incentive to volunteer.

$5 an hour or 100m ISK/hour (they're basically the same thing) should do it. That's 800m ISK/hour inflating the economy, but that's a drop in the bucket compared to thousands of mission-runners generating ISK every hour of every day.

I'd say you could get some incredibly knowledgeable volunteers beating down the door to apply if you offered that much ISK.

In order to fix the Rookie Help system, CCP needs to split it into four separate channels and ensure that at least two knowledgeable staff members or volunteers are in each of them at all times.

TheHatter is right: Never use Rookie Help for anything, except possibly to see text flying by at improbable speeds, or for a good laugh at the terrible advice being given out there when you know what you're doing.

Under the new character creation system, the only difference between the races is which frigate skill you begin the game with — and that is unimportant. Therefore, choose the race, bloodline, career and gender you like the most.

As for tips getting started: Complete the tutorial, complete your race's Epic Arc, join the E-UNI public channel so you'll have a place to socialize and ask questions (the Rookie Help channel is far too swamped for this purpose), and read up on EVE via the official forum, stickied guides, and other EVE resources (check the stickies in this forum for some ideas).

I'll let others offer their advice about getting started in PvP.

Originally posted by miagisan

we go on frigate roams and covop roams al the time. Its not too hard and we have many noobie corps. Granted we arent holding space atm, but we did and just did fine for a while.

PURgE is one of the very few exceptions to skill point elitism, hats off to you sir.

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Originally posted by Malcanis

(1) By your own account, the "Jaunty cap" will get you in to the other 5% of nullsec corps. And you only need 1.

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Maybe, maybe not. Having a gnarly 'tude makes little difference if the right people can't appreciate it, so this comes down to sheer luck in making good connections.

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Originally posted by Malcanis

(2) I can tell you for a fact that those "SP requirements" are not nearly so absolute as you assume. They are a first-pass filter for unsolicited applications. Personal recommendations are but one way in which they are more porous than you think.

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For a fact? I am aware of your character, and that you're an experienced EVE player. Unless you've been in a significant cross-section of nullsec corporations, however, this statement is nothing more than speculative, hardly fact.

As long as we're speculating, I'll posit that personal recommendations are one of the only ways in which they're porous. Knowing the right people trumps everything, but that doesn't factor into this, because a vast majority of respective rookies don't know the right people... nor should they, in most cases.

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Originally posted by Malcanis

(3) Why does it have to be nullsec?

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It doesn't absolutely have to be. When you add pirates and mercenaries to the equation, though, the "SP requirement" and "rookie-friendly" numbers would probably worsen. Perhaps WH corps would be easier to join; that, I don't know. Carebear corporations don't count, because if people enjoy watching paint dry while chatting online, they can fire up MSN and slap a coat of hi-gloss on their computer room door, saving themselves $15 a month in subscription fees.

I admit, it is fair to point to E-UNI and RvB as alternatives. It takes weeks or months to get into E-UNI, however, and I'm not sure about RvB, so I can't comment. I need to put an alt in there to see for myself, though.

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Originally posted by Malcanis

(4) No-one said it would be easy, only that it was possible

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And I've never said EVE is a bad game, that it should be easy, or that people are mean and bad for setting SP requirements. I believe they've been forced into it because of the way the game works.

Accepting promising (not "just anyone") rookies on a regular basis instead of only veterans means fewer HACs and other powerful ships in your fleets. And if that happens, corporations who accept only veterans will have an edge over your fleets. Thus, only a very few exceptions are allowed to pass these "porous SP filters" (major exception being someone very focused on one type of powerful ship).

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Originally posted by Malcanis

(5) There's nothing to stop new players forming their own alliance and getting out there, like Goonswarm did once upon a time, and TEST ALLIANCE did a few months ago. They were in Syndicate within a month of forming.

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Nothing other than the fact that Goonswarm and Test Alliance Please Ignore had large, popular nerd websites to draw their membership from. In other words, nothing other than a pre-existing network of thousands of people.

Yes, if you have hundreds of friends start the game with you, in that case your alliance CAN matter. This is true.

My experience is just the opposite. In nearly every single game listed in my signature — the sole exception being FFXI — I carefully searched for and joined a non-garbage, newbie-friendly player organization almost from day one, and generally stuck with them until the end of my time in the game.

Some of these organizations went on to be (or already were) dominant in PvP or another competitive activity, depending on the game. Most were large and quite active, and all of them were capable of participating in the endgame. I had the time of my life on Ventrilo with some of these people ("time of my life" may be overstating the case, but a good time was had nonetheless).

I even worked my way up the ranks to lead one such player organization, and it was one of the largest and most powerful organizations I've belonged to in my career playing MMORPGs.

I've always hated level/time played/SP/whatever requirements, and I try to avoid joining organizations who use them if I can — yes, even after I've become a powerful player in-game. I'm not the type of person to USE "lesser" organizations as stepping stones, sorry. Perhaps my dislike of the ubiquitousness of a policy I consider lazy and elitist makes more sense in this context.

My shunning of non-newbie-friendly organizations has served me well over the years, and there are old guild mates I remember clearly to this day from years ago whom I'd never have met if they'd had to play the game for six ****ing months before they could join.

Some people need a high-quality, intelligent, active, mature community ASAP. I'm sorry to say this, but those are friggin' RARE among many entry-level PvP corporations. I can't speak for carebear corporations, but that's beyond the scope of what we're discussing here, I think.

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Originally posted by TheHatter

Right.

Why don't you use this research to write a short guide on how newbies CAN get into good corps with low SP?

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This did occur to me, and I might do it.

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Originally posted by bunnyhopper

What you assert people are saying in paragraph one about the frigates and the like, is not even slightly related to your counter argument in paragraph two...

...there are indeed corps that take in low SP players and at the start of the game you shouldn't be overly bothered about your SP total. That the majority of nullsec corps that dominate successful pvp only take on experienced players is really by the by and has absolutely fuck all to do with what you seem to be railing against.

The story here is you are singling out a minority of posters and countering their assertions with statistics that really don't have anything to do with what they are banging on about in the first place.

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Hey, I'd love to be wrong about the number of people spreading overenthusiastic disinformation. Perhaps it's my mistake.

These are what I would consider reasonable and unbiased answers to the two biggest rookie (and prospective player) questions concerning EVE PvP:

Can I jump into EVE PvP right away?
"Yes, but your options will be fairly limited for the first few months. If you want to join a serious PvP corp while your SP are low, you'll need to search very carefully to locate a legitimate, competent corp that is also rookie-friendly. Barring that, know the right people, or get a bit lucky."

How long will it take me to become competitive?
"In serious PvP? You'll need to focus on and train for Interdictors, HACs, Black Ops, Recon, or some other advanced design. Just flying these isn't enough; you'll also need an assortment of respectable core and support skills. This will take 6-8 months or so."

Is that fair? Because if that's what everyone else has been saying, then I really am stupid and will shut up straightaway.

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Originally posted by Sheista

You're also acting like space-holding corps are the only corps that are involved in PvP. Renter corps, or corps that don't hold space and are instead just a part of an alliance that may hold space, are MANY, and are involved in PvP just as frequently as others.

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You know, despite the fact that I may come off as an a-hole, I'm really not. I must say, though, that there are some garbage renter corps, some terribad newbie-friendly "PvP" corps, and some that simply aren't the right fit for certain people. In other words, for a particular individual, the choices are much smaller than they might seem — and he probably won't even be able to find every single possibility.

Regarding this discussion, I'm simply stubborn and persistent because I believe pilots should be chosen for who they are, their attitude and their learning potential, not for how long they've been accumulating SP. In my mind, it doesn't matter if they've been in EVE for one day or one thousand days. Complete and utter imbeciles wearing their ass for a top hat can (and often do) accumulate 30m SP and even become acceptably competent at PvP.

I will say this: If you refuse to believe that a majority of competent, prominent PvP corporations setting 6-month-plus SP minimums doesn't send a message to prospective players, then I don't know what to tell you. If nothing else, it suggests that there must be something wrong with corporations who don't have SP minimums — surely if they'll take just anyone when everyone else is so picky, they must suck, right?

Gotta run for now, I'll apply to newer posts when I return.

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Originally posted by TheHatter
 
End of Story.

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The real moral of the story is this:

The typical lines fed to new players, right here in this forum and pretty much everywhere else, are "you can be useful in PvP in a T1 frigate," "rookies are a valuable resource," and "don't be concerned about your SP total, you don't need to catch up".

Yet 90% of nullsec corporations set recruitment guidelines indicating that, in fact, they have no need of T1 frigates and don't consider them useful, they are uninterested in tapping the valuable resource that rookies represent, and they are, in fact, quite concerned with SP totals.

That is the end of the story.

The lowest SP requirement I've seen outside of corporations that openly welcome rookies (other than trial account limitations) is 5m. That is still a minimum of three months' training time for a rookie, or more if all 5m must be PvP-centric (which it usually must). That's fairly easily doable, I'll grant you that, but it still precludes some of the outlandishly enthusiastic claims I see presented to newbies about diving into PvP.

Also, there are far more 10m-20m corps than there are 5m (or 25m) corps. The statistics are somewhat like a Bell curve in that regard. Less than 5m is extremely rare (the aforementioned rookie-friendly corps), and I have yet to see anything above 25m.

Lies, damned lies, and statistics, fair enough. The resource I'm using is right there for everyone to see, though. It's all public information. I know people can't be bothered to painstakingly read all that text, which is why I'm doing it for them.

I want people to be informed. After they get the happy, you-can-do-anything-in-EVE Reading Rainbow spiel, I wish they'd get some more concrete and realistic facts to work with as well. Thus armed, they'd know exactly what they were getting into.

To begin with, rookie-friendly nullsec corporations are far less visible than those with high requirements. You have to dig deep in order to find them, because they're the proverbial needle in a haystack. Bear in mind that the recruitment section of the EVE forum is also full of other advertisements, such as veterans looking for a new corp, carebear corps, and joke corps (e.g., Velator swarms and the like).

I cannot deny that the existence of even a few rookie-friendly nullsec corporations is better than none, and that these create possibility, rather than impossibility. I've never denied that.

However, I'm not dealing in possibilities here. I'm dealing with the big picture, and with people's impression of the game. The very fact that such an overwhelming majority of competent corporations refuse to mentor newbies may put someone off the game, even though they may be aware of the few alternatives. This is where the "I can't catch up to older players" sentiment comes from.

In summary, no, the few exceptions don't entirely salvage the whole. If you removed those exceptions, what would we be left with? Arguably the best part of the game, exclusively available to veterans (or high-SP-count characters, at least) or their cronies outside the game.

Yes, the exceptions are a salvation. But they are also indicators of what I consider a serious problem. Nullsec alliances are stuffed full of EVE's most experienced players, and fewer than 10% of them are willing to mentor new players... and given the fairly low veteran member count of most rookie-friendly nullsec training corps compared to their standard counterparts, the number is likely 5% or lower.

Anyone can PvP in EVE at any time — that's true. Hour-old rookies in Velators can shoot each other with their civilian blasters, but will they learn anything particularly useful? Will they be on the path to PvP competency?

Nullsec corporations may be "the elite" of EVE, but allow me to set the record straight here. Carebears (that is, dedicated mission runners, dedicated miners, dedicated traders, and their ilk) make up a huge portion of EVE's total population.

When we're only discussing PvP, and we remove carebears from the equation, nullsec corporations actually represent an overwhelming majority of EVE's PvP population. There are more nullsec corporations in EVE than all the highsec ganker/wardec corporations, lowsec pirate corporations (these get rarer every year), and mercenary corporations combined. Additionally, nullsec corps tend to have significantly higher member counts than the latter types.

The "elite" nullsec organizations you refer to in fact represent the bulk of EVE PvP. Also, bear in mind that mercs are even more elitist than nullsec corps, and so are quite a few pirate corps.

Is it POSSIBLE to get into a non-garbage nullsec corporation early on? Absolutely. My point, though, is that the overwhelming trend in EVE PvP is elitism, closed doors, and an unwillingness to mentor new pilots.

As for what they'll be doing for those nine months, who can say? The lucky ones find a situation that suits them and continue playing. Perhaps the unlucky ones get discouraged and stop playing when they check the recruitment forum, start reading threads, and see massive SP requirements on nearly every post (and many times, nullsec corps on the first 2-3 pages ALL advertise high SP requirements).

I've begun spending a great deal of time and effort researching proper nullsec corporations. By "research," I mean I identify nullsec corporations via recruitment threads and other means, examine the in-game profile of each corporation and its alliance, check their forums, and record their minimum SP requirement, if any. By "proper," I mean that they hold sovereignty in at least one system, or at the very least have access to standard nullsec resources and facilities. That means renters are included. Rookie training corps attached to proper nullsec alliances (an extremely rare phenomenon) also qualify. I'm not cherry-picking the most exclusive corps, either; I research them as I locate them.

Of the 40 corporations I've researched thus far, the average minimum SP requirement (this includes corps with requirements of 0 SP) is approximately 10 million skill points — and those must be focused on PvP, in nearly all cases. This means learning skills, industrial skills, social skills, and similar don't count. Occasionally these corporations are actively recruiting industrialists, and in those cases the requirements are somewhat lower (though still in the neighborhood of 4-5 months).

What this boils down to is that your average rookie (who doesn't have fancy implants or high learning skills when he's born) will have to train nine or ten months' worth of skills just to reach that minimum requirement. More, during this time his training must be almost exclusively focused on PvP ships.

A large portion of these corporations expect you to already have PvP experience and an impressive killboard before you even join.

Of the corporations researched thus far, only 10% of them are rookie or near-rookie friendly, and two of those are dedicated "newbie training corporations" attached to proper nullsec corporations. Note that corps with lower SP requirements tend to be smaller and possibly renters, generally speaking.

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I've carefully recorded all of this data in an Open Office document. This is a verifiable list available upon request to anyone who asks for it. These numbers are not imaginary. 40 corporations isn't a huge quantity, so I'm shooting for 100+, which would be quite a substantial cross-section of nullsec. I predict that as I continue this research, the minimum SP requirement figure I stated above will be lessened, but also that the "rookie-friendly" percentage will fall to 5% or so.

 
My predicition: 95% of nullsec corporations will require an average minimum of 6 months of PvP-focused skill training to be considered for membership.

Why am I doing this? Because I am dead-tired of people saying "You can PvP in 2-6 weeks!" which is a statement with a HUGE catch and any number of strings attached. The same people who say that sort of thing turn around and support massive SP minimum requirements to join their own veteran corporations.

It is a myth that a jaunty cap and a spunky attitude will buy you a ticket to riches, incredible PvP, and endless possibilities from day one.

I have an idea: The OP could join Madhatters Inc.! ...Just kidding, you'd need over a years' worth of skill points minimum to even be considered.

Indeed, EVE University is probably your best choice — at least until you're able to separate the elitists from those who appreciate the value of new players and are willing to put effort into mentoring them.

You can definitely play EVE on that, though you might have to crank the settings down fairly low. It's a shame CCP dropped support for the Classic client awhile back (too expensive for them to develop two clients simultaneously, etc.), because you'd be able to play that on a graphing calculator.

Don't get me wrong... I love EVE. It's a multiplayer, science-fiction starship simulator. I've been an avid reader of science fiction since I was able to read; I've played Starflight, Elite, Star Control, Master of Orion, Wing Commander, X³: Reunion, and many other space sims and science-fiction computer games; and it's a rare science-fiction film I haven't seen or at least heard of, including old, foreign or obscure ones.

In other words, this game is right up my alley. But it has its faults and drawbacks, and I don't like to see them being glossed over. Glossing them over will only anger new players when they start playing EVE and discover that, in fact, these faults and drawbacks really do exist.

CCP does, in fact — undebatably — introduce special items, features and mechanics that become unavailable at a later date and foster a form of "grandfatering". If you miss out on certain of these opportunities because you haven't been playing since 2003, then you're simply out of luck. When T2 BPOs were first released, for example, their owners made mind-boggling quantities of ISK from them, hundreds of billions or even trillions in some cases. These days they're not nearly that good, but the point is: Do you think you, as a new player, will ever have a chance at an opportunity like that in your EVE career? Not unless you run a Ponzi scheme (which is possible, don't get me wrong).

Nullsec is similar. It's been settled, and is no longer a frontier. If you want to play EVE in nullsec, you'll do so only as part of an alliance that includes older players and veterans. It is virtually impossible to muscle in with a truly new alliance. When nullsec was first settled, those alliances were all new. This is no longer possible to do, because it's already full of powerful people.

I also challenge anyone to create a trial account and, after a few days or a week, attempt entry into a decent nullsec corporation as a rookie without contacting any of the friends you already have in-game. Ask around, and see how many of them will simply accept rookies. Witness how many of them have 10 million SP requirements, 15 million SP requirements, 20 million SP requirements, and even higher. See how many of them will literally scoff at you for having the gall to approach one of their members about joining.

There are a fair number of nullsec entities without SP requirements or elitism, but which is a rookie MORE LIKELY to encounter first? I'll stake my damned wallet on the former.

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Originally posted by Malcanis

Where you err is that you think new corps and alliances should be entitled to own a region right away. Doesn't happen. You start out as a renter. If you do well, you ascend to pet. Then to meatshield. Then to ally. Then finally to independent entity. But none of these steps are granted for love or time played - they have to be earned ingame with commitment and skill (which is why I lol at people who whine that "EVE is a game that rewards not logging in")

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I have not erred — in fact, you've proven my point quite nicely. My point is simply that a corporation's entry into nullsec is now dictated by preexisting nullsec alliances, and always will be. Renters and pets exist in nullsec only on the sufferage of a preexisting alliance. They didn't conquer that space themselves. As you said, they have to "earn" it. Who are they earning it from, exactly? An entrenched, pre-existing alliance, that's who.

Further, The Initiative. is not actually new in a grassroots sense. The name is new, but it is packed full of good ol' boys and veterans who used to belong to an alliance of a different name. Do you deny this? A fresh alliance created by newer players will never become a power bloc, no matter how much "effort" and "earning" is put into it... barring a miracle, that is.

Finally, since most individual new players are far more likely to try to gain entry into a preexisting nullsec alliance, it's exponentially more difficult for truly fresh alliances to gain numbers, on top of the fact that even if they could, they'd be unlikely to succeed.

What part of "getting in on the ground floor" don't you understand?

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Originally posted by Malcanis

The true wealth of 0.0 alliances is the number of active, experienced players who are prepared to work together towards a common goal.

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Now that I agree with.