I'd yawn, blink, and think to myself: "Damn! Over a decade of dreaming — and for the past six years, not one single person managed to dream up a new MMORPG that didn't suck. Hell, even some of the good ones turned into nightmares, like that one MMORPG based on the Star Wars films.

Thank goodness those nightmares are finally over. It's time to live my life again."

Well, I'm in all likelihood done buying new Squeenix products, that's for sure.

Final Fantasy Tactics: War of the Lions for PSP suffered from severe animation lag and Godawful sound downgrades, Final Fantasy XIII was a major disappointment, Final Fantasy XIV has so many problems they publicly admitted it and made it temporarily free-to-play....

Still, the Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together remake is a must-buy for me, if they don't screw it up as they did with WotL. (Originally, TO was developed by Quest, so strictly speaking it's not even a Square game.) After that, though, I'm not sure when or if I'm going to buy another Squeenix game.

Well shoot, I was just about to try FFXI again; I retired from the game in 2005, having played since NA release. I've been told the game has changed a great deal over the past five years or so.

And then I saw this thread. Not only does Square continue to use that annoying PlayOnline rubbish, and not only is their customer service as awful as ever, but I now have to jump through 3-D Secure hoops in order to pay them a monthly fee? I'm sure I could arrange to use the service, but frankly, it's against my principles to reward a company for making it as inconvenient as possible to deal with them and use their product.

Seems like ever since World of Warcraft became popular, nearly every other MMORPG developer just started phoning it in.

I tried out AO in the spring of 2008, played for a few months, then quit -- mainly because of AO's performance problems on my gaming PC, which was high-end at the time and far exceeded AO's recommended system specs. During my stint in AO, most players I asked predicted that the new graphics engine would be ready and implemented by summertime.

The new engine would, I thought, solve most of the game's performance problems on my modern computer. When it didn't surface by summertime, I quit AO.

Summer 2008, summer 2009, and summer 2010 have come and gone; summer 2011 is approximately six months away. I check this forum every few months to monitor the state of the game, and apparently the new graphics engine still isn't even close to being implemented.

Oh well....

If it begins and ends with PLEX -> remap and fluff items (hopefully only Incarna fluff items)?

That would be perfectly fine, sure, and I wouldn't have a problem with it. If they don't continue down the slippery slope, then there's no issue.

Frankly, I personally stand to benefit from micro-transactions more than most. I've been playing pay-for-perks text MUDs for years, and you may have heard that they're stupidly expensive. They are.

I just don't want to see EVE go that route, because it would drastically change the dynamics of the game.

---

Originally posted by Rockgod99

Honestly I just dont think CCP would put a cash shop into the game. Like you said players are already going nuts over remaps with plex. CCP isnt a stupid developer.

---

Probably not, but they might be able to get away with it if the change happens gradually enough, and if they disguise the micro-transactions.

That's what worries me... a lot of players aren't too smart, and simply think of PLEX in terms of just paying ISK for them. In their minds, trading ISK for PLEX somehow removes the $17.50 from the equation entirely, and they say things like (paraphrasing): "You can just pay ISK for it, you don't have to use real money."

It's a form of money-laundering and obfuscation. Red flags have gone up all over the place, because PLEX for remaps absolutely reeks of CCP stealthily testing the waters for viability of micro-transactions.

Originally posted by tvalentine

Irony overload

It's pretty much impossible to out-arrogant me. I recognized the irony as I was writing it.

No, they haven't sold out yet... well, unless you count devoting significant resources to a console game as selling out.

However, they're publicly PLANNING to sell out, and citing reasons that sound suspiciously like following the latest fads. Do you understand the definition of "selling out"? An old-school, subscription-based game turning coat and selling virtual items to players is practically the poster boy for selling out, in my opinion.

If you want to wait until it's too late to complain, feel completely free. I'd rather complain now, along with all the other EVE players vehemently speaking out against PLEX for remaps. And that's just PLEX for remaps — I'd say 90% of the player base would be against a cash shop.

But that's exactly where this slippery slope leads.

---

Originally posted by Comnitus

Perhaps you'll realize that people make and change plans all the time. "We do not have plans to go microtransaction with EVE... (at this time)." That's the part you're supposed to understand without the guy having to tell you straight up, but since you can't do that, I've pointed it out for you.

---

Actually, I'm well aware that that particular statement leaves the door open for a change of plans somewhere down the line. I didn't need a jackass with a severely overinflated opinion of himself to explain it to me; in fact, I anticipated that someone just like you would dredge it up eventually. I already have a counter-argument prepared. (If you've thought of something, chances are excellent that I have, too — and probably long before you did.)

Despite the loophole built into that particular statement, the overall sentiment CCP has cultivated for its most devoted player base over the years is assurance that CCP understands old-school gamers — that they wouldn't follow the latest fads, delve into micro-transactions, dumb down the game to attract a wider audience, open a new server cluster, or anything of the sort.

In other words, they've sworn up and down that they'd never sell out. This has clearly been a lie.

Ergo, even if you completely disregard that particular statement, I am still right, and you still have a grossly overinflated opinion of yourself. Also, you apparently don't play EVE, or I wouldn't have to be telling you all of this.

---

Originally posted by tvalentine

while you're looking into the future, you think you can get me the powerball numbers for the lottery as well? It amazes me that people actually think this, like i said before it isn't in the strictest form of the word; RMT. You can buy remaps with isk as well not just $$$. I agree on the fact that any unbalancing RMT would definetly make me quit, but this post is just silly. I think i'll start getting a little scared once they do actually implement some ACTUAL RMT, but atm the worst part about this is what someone else said, it devalues attributes.

---

I don't have to be an astrologer to recognize a slippery slope when I see one, particularly when there are numerous examples of exactly what I've described in the industry.

And where did you get the idea that this is all JUST about PLEX for remaps? It isn't just about PLEX for remaps. If you've been reading this thread at all, you should know that the developers are discussing micro-transactions that go above and beyond PLEX for remaps. Read the quote I posted.

1.) We're never going to introduce micro-transactions, ever.

2.) We're introducing micro-transactions, but only for vanity items.

3.) Well, maybe we'll add a few items that offer small in-game advantages.

4.) Perhaps we'll add a few more items with better in-game advantages.

Two Years Later....

5.) You can't compete in the game at all without spraying cash at the developers (on top of the subscription fee, naturally).

The biggest problem I have with all of this is the fact that a CCP developer wrote this sentence, word for word:

We do not have plans to go microtransaction with EVE.

I didn't add the underlining or bold the text. He added that himself, for emphasis. And now we find out that CCP is quite deliberately planning to go microtransaction with EVE — not simply considering it, but making distinct plans and explaining their justifications.

This means that they are liars. Worse, CCP constantly makes promises to its core player base about their principles — keeping EVE true to its roots, always having one server cluster, etc. Clearly this is a load of garbage, and they'll backpedal on any of these claims at any time.

---

Originally posted by Wycliffe

Unless I'm missing something, where did you get info on MT vanity items for Incarna?

---

From Torfi Frans Olafsson in an interview with Eurogamer:

---

Eurogamer: Business models in MMOs are changing. Are there any plans to use micro-transactions in EVE to allow people to re-map their skills?

Torfi Frans Olafsson: Yeah, we are looking at introducing virtual goods within the game, but we feel those things should be vanity items rather than those that give you a clear benefit over other players in-game.

That said, we are introducing a feature this expansion [Incursion], that does allow you to re-map your attributes using Pilot Licence Extensions, which are bought both in-game and on our website. PLEX represents 30-days subscription within the game.

We will evolve just like everyone else. We will certainly not become a dinosaur. That has not been our style.

---

---

Originally posted by Orphes

Or some other can say...

""You can only PvP after 4-6 months!" which is a statement with a HUGE catch and any number of strings attached."

---

The "catch" and "strings" I'm referring to don't change at all, even if you phrase the statement that way. The facts remain constant; it's really a matter of how each side spin-doctors those facts.

Both my original statement and your alteration of it refer to the same truth in different ways. Ultimately, it takes 6-12 months to properly fly an advanced ship, PERIOD. Also, a wide assortment of corporations list the ability to fly those advanced ships as a prerequisite for membership, PERIOD.

Those are verifiable facts that cannot be disputed in any way, unless you're delusional.

You may interpret those facts in a positive light, arguing that players can enjoy flying lesser ships for months on end, that they won't mind focusing on just one goal for a long period of time, and that they shouldn't have too much trouble finding a rookie-friendly corporation.

My argument, of course, is that the above is an overly enthusiastic, candy-coated exaggeration. Training for HACs and related skills for six months while flying only a limited number of lesser ships can get boring, and being unable to join an interesting corporation or alliance because your e-member isn't large enough yet can be frustrating.

Oh yes, pre-CU SWG for certain.

EVE is the only MMORPG I've ever returned to after leaving it. Twice. (I started back when the graphics looked like dog dookie.)

Why? Well, I retired from all the other MMORPGs I've played because of genuine problems with the game itself and/or with the game's community. I only left EVE (twice) because of my own personal issues, not due to EVE being a crap game or having a terrible community.

EVE isn't perfect, but it remains a solid, open-ended science fiction game with a fascinating (if not particularly upbeat or welcoming) community. Still, I'm quite sure that after 3-5 years, even EVE becomes boring. It is just a game, after all, and we're human beings who will eventually grow tired of any one computer game.

Here's hoping EVE continues to grow and improve for many years to come. Perhaps after a few years' break, you'll return to the game, and all will be fresh and new again. (And let's face it: The chances of a new MMORPG of EVE's caliber being released in this era of gaming are extremely low, except possibly something created by CCP themselves.)

---

Originally posted by Mcgreag
 
While there are a few skills that CCP have stated they are not happy with not a single one of those are in list you linked. The skills that CCP would like to reform are learning skills and nothing else.

---

I'm well aware of the Learning skills debate, but that's not what I'm referring to. In the past, CCP have said that they're unhappy with the entire skill point system — that they'd like to do a major revamp, but realize it's impossible now. I don't have a source for this, so you may take it or leave it.

You're absolutely right, not all of the skills on that list are basic. Only some of them are, but I couldn't find anything more specific. There are still quite a few universal or might-as-well-be-universal skills on there, though.

Let me offer a better (perhaps the best) example of nickel-and-diming, then: The skills necessary to un-nerf Small Hybrid Turrets for, say, a Taranis. By un-nerf, I mean unlocking the ability to fit competitive turrets and utilize them in a competitive fashion.

• Interceptor
• Gunnery
• Small Hybrid Turret
• Small Blaster Specialization
• Weapon Upgrades
• Advanced Weapon Upgrades
• Controlled Bursts
• Surgical Strike
• Motion Prediction
• Rapid Firing
• Sharpshooter
• Trajectory Analysis

This is what I mean by nickel-and-diming. It's great when you have the universals done, but it's annoying when they aren't and you're new. A character with balanced attributes (and low-ish Charisma), all Learning skills to 5 for Rank 1 and 4 for Rank 3 (these take almost a month and a half in and of themselves, by the way), and +4 implants would require over 30 days to train all these skills to L4, or L5 when it's a prerequisite for the L4s.

Training all basic and core skills to L4/L5 probably takes a month and half. Training the skills needed to fit and properly utilize the other modules you'll need on your Taranis will take a month or more, certainly.

What this all adds up to is that it takes five months to be sitting in an un-nerfed Taranis, and more likely six months, since rookies won't have +4 implants right off the bat, it might take them a while to get the proper skill plan together, they might pick a bad remap at first, etc.

It does not take six months to learn to fly a Taranis properly, unless the person in question is an idiot, and Interceptors require more player skill to fly properly than many much larger ships do. And by the way, during this time period they won't be mining, researching and producing, scanning down sites, training for haulers or freighters, trading (well they can trade, but they'll be very limited), running a corporation, or really anything other than training for this one ship.

Completely dissatisfied, personally.

I don't think there's been a single MMORPG released since 2003 that I could really get into.

Just a note: I'm not actually a new player with 3m SP. I'm a returning player with three characters on three accounts, two well into the eight-digit SP range. I was simply using that 3m SP figure as an example. I don't have any 70m SP+ characters, though, that's for sure.

Also, while I don't discount the assertion that truly elite alliances have high SP minimums for a reason, I don't agree that those are the only alliances I'm taking into account. There are nearly two dozen sovereignty-holding alliances (or -renting, or just "access", and also some exceptions, like PURgE) represented on my list now, some large, some small. Some of the small ones do have 15-20m SP requirements.

Please note that I'm not at all concerned about "access to nullsec resources" or "being bad***" or anything of that nature. None of that matters, as EVE is a terrible game without other players to enjoy the game with.

The actual reason SP barriers concern me is that there are, in fact, some pretty fun (and interesting, and intelligent) people out there in these corporations and alliances. I know this from personal experience. Widespread SP barriers vastly reduce the odds of rookies meeting these people before they meet incompetents, bores, brainless griefers or imbeciles. They're going to meet all of those sorts anyway, of course.

Believe it or not, my concern is for EVE and new player influx, not for myself. I think you can see just from this thread that I'm stubborn as a hog and very persistent, which virtually guarantees at least modest success in my EVE career going forward. I'm not worried about me.

I believe EVE loses a fair number of potentially awesome pilots due to various aspects of the game that, at least to newcomers, make it seem extraordinarily newbie-unfriendly. There are people out there who do their homework. They aren't stupid, and shortly after starting the game, they can see how long it takes to train all the nickel-and-diming core skills that do little more than act as pre-requisites to stop your ship from completely sucking. (CCP themselves have stated they aren't happy with the current skill system, but that they know they can't change it now.) And they can see all those SP minimums on the Alliance and Recruitment Center, too.

I'm a returning player. I've recovered most of my old EVE knowledge now, like some guy with amnesia in a movie, yet I also have a fresh perspective to work with. This is a semi-unique combination, though I know there are others like me.

---

Originally posted by Malcanis

EDIT: When when you see some of the mentally inept and socially sub-normal people that lead or are prominent in some 0.0 alliances, really one can only conclude that the bar is set pretty low. Take heart - if those stupid assholes can do it, anyone can.

---

A lot of those asses-in-top-hats are where they are because of advantages that aren't afforded to new players, such as being buddies with a bunch of other asses-in-top-hats, having played the game for years on end, or possessing massive SP pools. This actually goes straight to the heart of why I disparage SP minimums: I can pretty much guarantee you that given a choice between only one or the other, your average nullsec alliance will take a butthat with lots of SP who knows how to PvP over even the jauntiest rookie.

Mouth-breathers post "55m sp pvp cap pilot lkn 4 00 crp lol" threads in the Alliance and Corporation Recruitment Center, and they receive blue streaks of replies from well-known, established nullsec alliances. If I were to post a thorough, enthusiastic, intelligent thread with my in-game goals listed as bullet points — but as a player with only 3m SP — I'd get probably two replies, one saying, "join eve university lol", and the other an invitation to a fly-by-nite, one-man carebear corp.

Now, does this mean a new player can never succeed? No. Isn't it true that large quantities of butthats manage to succeed in every MMORPG known to mankind? Absolutely, no question. But EVE is different from other MMORPGs.

My point is that intelligence, attitude and initiative are advantages, but that SP count is still the a far greater advantage in general — unless you are friends with the right people, in which case you can be a dullard with low SP and still be given opportunities (and this, too, adds to the asses-in-top-hats problem).

You may feel free to disagree. I don't claim that my opinion is the best or the only correct opinion, but I believe it has merit. So do some, perhaps even most aspects of your arguments. A good debater can argue both sides of an issue; I'm pretty sure I could argue yours, if I were so inclined. As it is, I have to stick with mine.