Thanks for the replies! It's really helped. Most of these games I was aware of, but hearing them reccomended based on my tastes makes me alot more interested in them.

Xsyon- I bought and played in the beta. The concept is awesome and the game is like Wurm ultra... but the devs sucked and basically lied to us about what it had as features... It might be a game worth playing in a year or so...

Mabinogi: I always thought it was a chatroom type MMO for tweens, but I saw a stream of it that actually impressed me. Maybe I'll give it more of a try than the 5 mins of confusion I invested a few years ago. The weird payment system (Buying mounts) turns me off a bit though.

Vanguard always interested me, but it sounds dead/dying last I heard.

I've been planning on playing Fallen Earth in Oct. I thought it was a in interesting game when I tried my trial, but not buy and sub interesting.

Two questions:

What about Darkfall? I've heard alot about the overhaul coming down the line, but the hardcore PvP doesn't appeal to me. Is it a gankfest?

Any reccomendation for a Haven and Hearth interface? I tried the game shortly but the interface was, indeed, horrible and I rage quit.

Edit: BTW I have been playing Minecraft since pre-beta. I love it. Just waiting for 1.8, and I've always wanted something like that but online with saved character progression and more player interaction. Currently, since my buddies and I can't get a minecraft server to run stabilly and smoothly worth crap, I hate the online servers because mods just give themselves whatever they want. The act of gathering the resources to make something out of raw unworked items is whats fun about these types of games, to me.

Is there any gems in the rough I should know about? I'm looking for a game with skills to train, and a game where you can plop down a house and build things in the world would be the best. Failing that, I'll settle for an in-depth crafting system by itself. Wurm's concept is intensely interesting to me, but the graphics, payment plans, and so many other general lack of production value issues keep me from being able to play it.

I fear my only option may be ArchAge, which isn't coming out for forever...

I would look into Eden Eternal. It's anime styled like the other games you played, and it's really fun I think. It's somewhat casual, but it's solid. It's gots lots of fun little systems, and the coolest is the job system where you can change your class at any time to level that up as well as your character class.

Lack of dungeons and cool group content is actually something I've been pissed at in the last, like, 5 MMOs I've tried recently (Most recently: LOTRO). I like being able to group up and accomplish a set task and have that be as lucrative XP-wise or more as quest leveling per time invested.

I think there's alot to be said for being able to represent what unique role your class brings to a group and dungeons are some of the best ways to do that. They do get boring if they are on repeat, and just earlier today I was thinking how having branching paths in instances should already be common place and I was hoping SWTOR had them. I'm pretty excited that to hear it's already planned for both game's I'm looking forward to.

Raids, on the other hand, are super lame. You should, imo, NEVER EVER need to have any reason to repeat a end-game raid. Expecting players to co-ordiante that amount of players for something like a CHANCE to drop the item you want is just unreasonable. The option should be there to do it more, but the rewards should not favor grinding a 20+ man raid. That's what fosters shitty game communities like WoW has with it's elitist guilds. Not to mention they should be amazing spectacles worthy of once in a character lifetime events, not something that gets boring and mundane the 50th time you've ran it this week.

Edit: As an aside, Dungeon Quests are the devil, especially if they make you do certain optional things. The party members that don't have it won't want to do it, and it causes conflict. Not to mention there's quest chain muddling, and the possibility to forget to share... Dungeon quests should either auto-assign on entry every time you go in, or be limited to "Find and enter X dungeon" style breadcrumb quests. Or both. I guess.

Pretty fair review. One of the better games to play, not the best. (Although that's a very personal title for different people).

I quite like DDO. I'm playing Turbines other game, LOTRO, but DDO is sitll installed. I know the urge to play it's straight up FUN combat will come back sooner or later. I am surprised more MMOs haven't picked up on what makes D&D/DDO great: The multiclassing. It was always my favorite part of tabletop and the same applies for DDO.

I think there's something very alluring knowing that when you fill up that XP bar, MAYBE you'll get another level of fighter... but MAYBE you'll pick up a quick one of cleric. Maybe some Barbarian. The choices you make at character creation, while important, do not define you for the rest of your adventuring career. I think that's the very best part of the game.

Anyway, I love DDO, I dig how easy it (usually) is to get into a PUG and just run around doing stuff. In my experiences, most players were relatively easygoing, I think the lack of real PvP drives off most of those jerks before long. You do indeed see the occasional munchkin, but the contingent of tabletop RPGers is way higher than average in DDO (Or at least they are less afraid to admit it ;D)and I've witnessed them usually shooting down players lambasting others for a build.

I think everyone should try it. The combat won't appeal to everybody, but I think it's a great break from the drudgery of combat rotation (ugh) you find in most MMOs. A nice middleground between MMOs, Hack and slash games, all powered by solid Tabletop rules.

Personally, IP MMOs are my favorite type... as long as the IP is significant enough.

My best example is LOTRO VS Rift. At their core, they are pretty similar. Autoattack, use abilities. I played rift for about a week and was über bored. I had grown bored of this years ago when I quit WoW, and I generally wrote off any MMO with this combat system. Then I tried LOTRO and loved it. I feel the difference was the richness of the IP, and the whole "Seeing the sights" feel of the Lord of the Rings locations.

In Rift, an origional IP, I felt like everything was uninspired and generic. In Lotro, I feel like I'm seeing fantasy history. Theres lots of ways you can argue against this, I'm just saying how I felt. The IP was what made the difference. Not to mention I enjoy LOTR's rare-magic style. That example is a little more specific than the first, but still, IP based. I also loved Warhammer Online for a good 4 months just because I feverishly play 40K tabletop and dig the lore. When I stopped subbing and stepped back, WAR is WAY not my game. I hate PvP. But the IP drew me in, and I played an Orc (like my tabletop army) with glee JUST to feel "Orky". Other games just annoy me when I play an Orc becuase I just wish they were like Warhammer.

So anyway, 40K MMO: Excited. I dislike the 2 faction, but I am very willing to overlook that for a few months just to run around in the 40K universe. (Wether its longer than  few months will of course depend on the game itself)

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Originally posted by Khalathwyr
No, Isabelle, you're not alone. We've been kicking and screaming, (and getting warned and banned  ) on these and other forums for years about this topic. Game companies, the few that read these type forums, either 1) don't care or 2) anyone who gets that concept of journey not destination is in upper management.
 
I think its a mixture of both. Those guys/gals that played table-top RPGs before circa 1997 understood. That's why you saw what you saw in AC and UO. They tried to build "worlds" and not just games that you could get to the end fast and "win". Those people from back then, I'm afraid, are in the upper eschelons of companies now and don't have as much, if any, creative input. THey have to focus on bottom lines now instead of the bottom of a dungeon.
 
So now we have people in position (creatively) who grew up getting everything "fast" and "accessible" and who come from an environment where everyone gets a trophy for participating. Most have probably never experienced a true TPK (Total Party Kill) where the only answer was "Sorry, you failed, role another character".
 
Which is another point. I think many of us older (and certainly a few younger) gamers understood and accepted that heroes could/can die. That's not something engrained in many of the younger gamers IMHO. "Heroes always win, they always save the day and my character is a hero because the game box tells me so". *shrugs*

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I am glad someone else sees the decline of proper Tabletop RPG designs in games these days...
I feel like the RPG (MMO Or otherwise) is slowly transforming into a horrible, horrible, bland creature. All the great things about RPGs are being lost. For one: Roleplaying. So many games are singular-tracked linear movement from one story point to the next. Even games that are open world usually have restrictive class options. I still play DDO occasionally if nothing else because it's one of the few games where you can really make a custom character due to the class-combining of 3.0/.5.

I'm only 21, but I've played a ton of great old school RPGs and Tabletop, and I hope this trend of "Mainstream" RPGs dies a quick death...

Edit: And Death "penalties" are laughable in most MMO's. Mostly its just a couple coins that you will make back in 10 mins. Now, I'm against EXP loss for just a random death since that promotes grinding, but death should be something you REALLY want to avoid, not just a minor speed bump. I think the problem lies with MMO's singleminded focus on COMBAT COMBAT COMBAT always. Aside from crafting, which will almost invariably be to promote more combat, most MMO's have nothing else going for them. If your lucky you might get some player housing but... meh.

I want real adventure! A sense of discovery, puzzles, lockpicking, traps, unmarked side quests! I want to find items besides "Armor Piece Tier 3" that just make me marginally better at what I already do! I want to find a Decanter of Endeless water that seems useless until you happen upon a firefield you wouldn't normally be able to cross.

Anyway, more games need to take cues from Dungeons & Dragons, Online and Table, and other real RPGs.

Excellent article, I think the only way to break "WoW design syndrom" in upcoming MMOs is pointing out that we don't want more of what WoW's done already!

I stopped WoW after a month or 2 of Burning Crusade and never have even once considered playing again. I logged on a new character after being inactive for 2 months, did 3 quests then said to myself "Wait... why am I doing this? I've already done this, and the end-goal is just not interesting." I deleted the character, then unsubbed the same day I re-subbed and uninstalled. That was my last WoW experience.

For me, RPGs (MMOs or not) are about customization of character. And I don't mean equipment. Skills, feats, talents, perks, proficiencies, I can't get enough. I am obsessed with choosing my own path and, above all else, making sure I'm not set up like the majority of players. Endgame-style games ruing that for me in two ways: First, you end up looking like EVERY OTHER PERSON in the best case scenario because of the evil that we call "Set bonuses" and "Tiers". Secondly, the elitist "Hardcore" (Hardcore Sociopaths I imagine) guilds won't take you unless your set up in a stupid Optimized way they want you to be.

Basically, Endgame, to me, means rolling a new character. Once I stop leveling (And by that I mean progressing my character outside of "loot"), I stop playing. Period. The only games with an interesting endgame are system like WAR, where you have your seperate PvP rank to work on that gives you more talent points and new skills. We need more stuff like that, and including PvE rewards.

I just wanted to say that the idea that all female characters are actually desperate males is a huge defense mechanism. As a 21 year old, non-drinking, overweight and nerdy male who works in an office based around social MMOs, I don't get much female contact. When I do, I desire to make it a quality connection (In other words, I want to round out my interaction in accordance to normal human socilization, and want more female friends), but there have been too many times where I hope or think I am talking to a female and of course they turn out to be male. Or at least I assume that's what would happen, since I usually just avoid getting too involved with new, random people in MMOs because of the decepetion potential.

My point is,  the "All female avatars are dudes" has a very real reason for existing as a social defense, and I think it won't be going away anytime soon.

I agree with the OP. It's getting really annoying, but at the same time I knew this was what I was getting when I payed for it. Personally I'll just play some Rift until the game stabilizes a bit to get my polished game fix out of the way.

But the dev "team" seems to pretty much consist of 1 programmer/director, 1 or 2 other similar members, a couple artists and some unpayed community managers. They aren't working with a whole lot in the first place. Of course that's no excuse when they still charge the same sub fee as a game like WoW with billions of resources and years of content patches...

I'm hoping we get even more extended sub time, if nothing else because I don't think I'll be playing after that free time runs out. I'll keep tabs on the progression of the game and probably come back some day, I just have better things to spend my money on than an extended beta test.

PS: The game concept and content that's there is great, just not enough of it is stable/done.

RE: Budget

Lots of money doesn't produce a good game, but it takes lots of money to make a good game. In other words: Good games take money, but throwing money at a bad game has no gaurentees of making it good.

I for one am glad to see it getting a large budget. Let's see how efficiently it uses it.

The fact that every game on there can be replaced with another modern game is a bit depressing to me. WoW with Rift. DaoC with War. Etc. We havn't changed one bit.  ?_?

PS: "I will say that it definitely seems that WoW is drawing a younger crowd than previous MMORPGs"

Lol, He called it 

I was taken by suprise too. I found this game when I randomly saw pics of guys in plaid and thought "Wtf a lumberjack sim mmo?"

I had just been getting into Wurm Online and thinking "This fun, but the engine is crap and slightly better graphics would be nice", then this game presented both.

RE: Rift: I was just getting sold on Rift but after playing Xsyon in beta and coming back to Rift... I found it super boring suddenly. (Rift is still a good game and is just very different, but it felt so simple after a Sandbox game.)

First of all, I agree. Player killers should pass this up. It's possible, but its far from the focus. I am very glad that this is the case.

Now, I want to address the unfinished state. That is very true as well. However the developer is pretty upfront about it the fact that most of the content will come after launch. If your not comfortable with that please wait and see if you want to play the game in half a year, not at launch. You have Rift to play if you want a completed launch game.

I am sad they have said there's no plans for guns but they might come later. Bows, however are "ready, and will be added at launch", so saying there will be no ranged combat for a long time is just erroneous. It might be a small world right now, I don't know, but again, its all expanding.

This game is all about what your expecting to get for your money. If you want a done product, please keep moving on from Xsyon as you will NOT like it. Personally, with the 2 month sub included, I am quite happy to pre-order and play the beta. It's decent fun and I like funding a small developer who clearly needs the money to continue their game. Will I keep subbing after those 2 months? I dunno, it's going to largely depend on if things get added. If they don't, I won't. But I will keep up with this game for awhile to see if it progresses as it seems it will.

There comes a time in every MMO that I've played recently (luckily Im picking up on it sooner and sooner. Rift's was in beta) where I realize I don't care about end game. And if I don't care about the supposed goal... why am I even playing? I like alts (Alot) but if a game has grindy or boring end game I lose alot of intrest in playing the rest of it. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way, so having interesting end game and character progression beyond the level cap will bring in and keep alot more players I bet.

Personally the best end game to me is the game going "Good Job! Now make another character with X and Y bonuses!" It's like New game + online. New classes, new or altered races... at LEAST the ability to skip the first 10 or so levels that are designed to introduce new players to the game and would be redundant for you. (although I think the Death Knight starting out so close to max level in WoW is taking it a bit too far)

Finally with regards to the "Make a new main" endgame process, a game with varied and interesting starting areas (Not to mention plenty more quests than necessary to level as you go through the whole game) are, imo, another component of "end game". I hate that in Rift (Sorry, but its the only themepark MMO I've played lately) if I want to make a 2nd Defiant or guardian the story is EXACTLY the same with absolutely no difference. Not even class or race specific quests... or at least not many that I noticed.

Anyway, I've been playing alot of sandboxes recently because of this realization, at least!

This review makes it sound EXACTLY like Wurm. Im not saying thats a bad thing or anything of that nature, I just dislike when people make something sound like its the first of its kind when theres another game going strong with the exact same mechanics. I'm sure Wurm isnt the first either, but its the only other one I know of thats current.

That said, I've been horribly addicted to wurm since I found out about it 5 days ago, so I'm quite looking forward to this game. Wurm has horrible graphics and little to no polish, so a decent game in it's style is welcome. 40$ seems steep, so I'll hold on until launch in march, but I'll be checking it out. I was thinking of buying Rift but maybe I'll get this instead.

My experience pretty much echos yours. I've never been a fan of sandbox games... I thought. I really enjoyed EVE but the whole "My ship looks exactly the same for the last 5 months" thing really turned me off. That, and not wanting to lose the investment I had to spend those 5 months saving for just because 2 guys are waylaying travelers and theres NOTHING I could do to get out of it...

Anyway, Wurm is fun. I see it as Advanced Minecraft. I'm currently looking for ways/places to get iron so I can set up my own shanty in the woods somewhere. Should be fun :B

It all looks good but.... player animations? Seems like it should sort of be a big deal.

Sign me up for the next available code please! I liked EVE's concept but the money grind and time to gain faction standing was WAY too harsh. I have high hopes for this game. Also, I LOVE MECHS. I'll be watching my inbox.

Thanks!

I agree with what you said alot, OP. I almost quit the rift beta halfway through the Guardian starter zone (After quitting the Defiant one in like 15 mins), it was sort of confusing, the thrust you deep into the lore very quickly and I wasn't able to appreciate that, and all the exploding things were rather annoying. I'm glad I stuck with it, and started to feel really engaged about the time you leave the little town area and check out the twisted forest.

I'm glad I stuck with it. As soon as I went through the portal (in an unexpectedly epic cutscene might I add) I was hooked. The new zone was calmer, not all....... orange ( I hate sunset effects in game. Makes everything washed out and both starting areas have that baaaaaaad.) and it felt like a place I actually wanted to be, in the present. I'm still not above, like, 7, but I like it. I do think they don't do a very good job of introducing crafting professions, and confused me by only showing a few of them and then telling me I could have 3...

Anyway, Rift is a solid game, and thats a LOT better than many, many MMOs these days, so It will get at least my 50$ soon ( Now with TF2 items?!), although Im not sure how long I will continue to sub.