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All Posts by chr1sm

All Posts by chr1sm

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20 posts found
I agree that Trammel killed UO as we knew it, not sure what you mean by "optional" above. I like the risk/consequence factor that existed back then, changing this core concept would just make sota drown out in the sea of fantasy games out there.

When first viewing game footage, I have to say I was less than impressed by the graphics(and I'm not graphics obsessed by any means), but you have to remember this is a prototype. To those who say this game is being made by "has-beens", isn't offering anything innovative, or it will be played by people who want to "relive" their childhood:  As gamer since UO: The Second Age - to present, this is what I'm looking forward to and what I'm skeptical about:

 

1. Non-Instanced customizable Housing:  Asheron's call, Darkfall, Mortal Online, SWG (that's probably it) do not compare(mind you, 2 of those 4 came out only recently and how many MMORPGs have been created since 1999?).

I do like the 'rent' concept since housing space is limited. My skeptic side is worried about the 'rent free' deeds kickstarters will receive. How much housing space will these people occupy? What if they stop playing?

Also, two of my fondest memories from UO were the days of waiting for a house to "fall" of a player who hasn't logged in for a long time. The PvP and anxiety that ensued over all the loot that could be inside and how one would be able to transport it back safely was FUN. People would pull all nighters waiting HOURS for the house to fall not knowing exactly when. Another issue is who gets to place their house deed(in sometimes very prominent locations) on top of the fallen house first - to top it off house deeds were very expensive and lootable/stealable. Houses were also lootable if you happen to have the owner's key.

All of these elements above created unparalleled adrenaline pumping fun. The risk and reward was tremendous. The highs were euphoric and the lows were devastating. It doesn't sound like these aspects will be options in SotA so it makes me question that although housing is an option, not sure the UO experience will be the same.

 

2. Skill Based system:  Level numbers floating above your head just aren't my thing. I prefer a sandbox game with skill-based progression where your skills only become stronger with use - and if you don't use them, they decrease gradually. The vast majority of MMORPGs are the same level based theme park treadmills - over it. Have been over it for 13+ years.  It looks like they're getting it right in this department, and I do like the references of weapon crafting having it's own "skill tree" thus adding variable elements when fighting against people using the same weapons.

 

3. Persistent World:  Again, very few games of the thousands created since 1999 have created anything similar. While Darkfall and Mortal Online attempted to recreate the experience, they flopped in too many other areas to make the game playable (the industry waited way too long to create re-create persistent worlds like these to begin with).

From Richard's explanantion of "mini shards" and having the whole population essentially on one server, this does sound like a very innovative, fresh take on MMORPGs and I appluad them for that. However, I did like seeing town "regulars" back in the day, even though we necessarily didn't interact enough to be considered "friends". For a niche game like this however, the technology sounds interesting.

All the talk about social media does sound a bit gimmicky to me. Yes I could see a feature like that helpful for mass marketed games like WoW, but none of my friends ever played UO back in the day and I just doubt they or the masses in general will be flocking to SotA, so how useful will this really be?

 

4. Open PvP Open PvP is rarely if ever seen in games. One thing that sets UO apart is that it was NOT marketed as a "PvP game". This indeed makes a huge difference. Darkfall, Mortal Online, Shadowbane ect.. simply do not compare because they're all "PvP games" with a generally "dark" themes which tends to attract more griefers than in a game like UO.

While I generally don't care much about Lore, I'm looking forward to an open pvp game that isn't blatantly marketing itself as such (no blood, demons or war on box/website covers, no crosshairs in your face throughout your whole gaming experience ala Darkfall). Yes it's an option but not the entire focal point. I think they're getting it right here.

Originally posted by Caldrin

 Also how you cant think of any other games with non instanced housing is beyond me.. there are infact quite a few games that had and still ahve non instanced housing..

SWG, Darkfall, Mortal Online to name a few..

 

That's pretty much it regarding the only "few" for the past 13+ years (and those 2 came out fairly recent). I have to agree that I can't think of any game with persistent houses the way it was done in UO.  I was big DF and MO proponent but those games were kind of a flop.

Unlike DF and MO, UO was NOT marketed as a "PvP game". I've come to realize it makes a big difference for ones gaming experience as well as the type of people "PvP" marketed games tend to attract.

Originally posted by DalekThay
No, it just gave people who weren't interested in getting murdered the second they stepped outside of town a place to play without worrying about some jackass who they have no chane of defeating taking their stuff. It's also a well documented fact that subscriber numbers greatly increased with the introduction of Trammel. So in other words...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY

As for the game at hand... yeah, no. Not interested in the slightest. It's Ultima in name only, and even then only so EA can make some money off of folks looking for nostalgia. I myself will be waiting for Mr. Garriott's upcoming game for a true Ultima experience.

Sorry to burst your bubble, the wide-held belief is that Trammel killed the true UO experience as it was known  - the ongoing adrenaline rush of open world PvP (in a game that was NOT marketed as a "pvp game") was a major/key beloved aspect that hasn't been successfully recreated since.

 

Subscriptions grew after Trammel (a largely promoted expansion in very niche market) for the same reason they grew with Everquest ect.. More people started getting cable/dsl/getting internet in general/UO and MMORPGs started becoming more popular as well. With your same logic is WoW must be the best MMORPG there is because most of the masses have subscribed?

 
There's a BIG difference between Ultima ONLINE and the Ultima series. When(most) people reference UO, they are talking about Ultima Online the 2nd Age specifically(pre-trammel which killed the game). There was a very distinct experience with UO that hasn't been achieved/replicated til this day. To anyone that's played UO every game since then has been an Everquest clone. The term "sandbox" has been watered down since then. Anyway, I can tell right now this game is going to flop, it's nothing but another hack/slash/quest MMO making its way now to the iPad. Wooptie doo. This game looks to have been inspired more from the Ultima Series(which I can care less about) and not Ultima Online- the greatest mmo ever.

I'm waiting for Richard Garriot's Shroud of the Avatar. Did he even have anything to do with UF?
Originally posted by Velric

What makes Aion different?

 

Nothing.

Sure MO sounds better than Darkfall but it will fail with the FPS+FriendlyFire / Crosshair in your face 24/7 bs.  FPS+FF fails in Darkfall, it fails for casual PvE groupers and solo-ers who don't want to be griefed by pew pew guild groups.  FPS+FF pushes this game to the farr ultra hardcore base and alienates so many other potential players.  MO is making themselves look like another cut and dry "pew pew game" just like Darkfall currently is. 

Honestly, the only thing I can see better about MO is the graphics and the ability of REAL player housing unlike what DF promised and essentially lied about for 7 years.  Other than that there are other aspects I'm not so crazy about in MO but whatever, here we go with another indie dev company trying to take on a game that involves taking a bite off more than they can chew.  I won't hold my breath on MO.

Being silenced in Darkfall forums?  What's new?  In the offopic sections with political talk, the only people allowed to speak and express their opinion were Libertarians and mainly Conservative Republicans.  Whenever anyone with a Democratic point of view expresses themself in a similar tone that a conservative does, they get banned/thread locked/deleted ect..

Don't even get me started on the game itself  Darkfall is a fail game from head to toe and it has just about everything to do with their inexperienced nasty staff.

RMTs are ok for games without depth mainly for players who don't have enough time to play a week.  Real world money usually destroys an economy though for more in depth MMORPGs.  it's a big problem for UO pre-trammel fans such as myself. But then again every game out there currently is just another WoW clone so whatever.  Darkfall and Mortal Online are the only 2 that came close to doing it right, but they are still fail, so after 10 years here I am still waiting for a true MMOWS, oh well.

STRONGLY disagree with #2.  A game with quests and levels IS a Themepark game.  A quest IS a "ride" you jump on, with a developer built perrogative that you must complete in order to recieve a reward of some sort.  Similarly, a LEVEL based game is exactly the same thing, Themepark style gameplay.

I agree that Sandbox gets thrown around a lot, in my opinion.  In fact, terms seem to constantly get redefined in this industry by people like you. 

In my opinion, Ultima Online pre-trammel was the ONLY definition of an "MMORPG" back in the day of 1997 and games like Diablo and then Everquest that came soon after, I considered them "MMOs".  Then somehow games like Everquest and WoW began being defined as "MMORPGs".  It's at this time that I began making references to Ultima Online pre-trammel(1997-1999) as a sandbox because it was so drastically different than the rest.

All of a sudden EVE, SWG and console games like Fallout 3 came out and started referring to themselves as a "sandbox". 

Now we have to redefine what Ultima Online pre-trammel was again and I refer to it today as a "MMOWS (RPG)" Massive Multiplayer Online World Simulator (Role Playing Game)".

 

The fact is that UO pre-T simply cannot be compared to any other game that has come after it.  If a game does not have at least ALL these following elements it simply can't be compared:

  • Open NON-Instanced world, no loading screens whatsoever, no "private quests" where others can't find you.
  • NON-Instanced player housing, again NO loading screens ANYWHERE, houses should have the ability to be made public or private.
  • Open PvP with REAL consequences.  Meaning you have the option of killing an innocent player if you want, but you will be held accountable just like in real life. The Red/Blue/Gray flagging system worked great in UO pre-trammel and no other game has truly perfected it or made it better since then.  Only 1 game has tried it in a similar fashio in 10 years and that's Darkfall, but DF's alliance system fails and so does Friendly Fire+FPS.  It fails for casual PvE groupers and people who get sploited by other random pew pew groups.  Mortal Online plans to follow Darkfall's footsteps here unfortunately and it too will fail.  This is one element that pushes these games to the far ultra hardcore base and everyone else gets alienated.  Good luck to both dev teams trying to compete for that small share of people.
  • Open loot, but taking from an innocent corpse can flag you.
  • SKILL based progression as opposed to level based.  In real life there are no "levels".  Your experience in a true MMOWS should not matter based on how much XP or mobs/bosses you've farmed.  It should be measured by how long you have practiced on a certain craft, spell school, weapon or other skill.  And just like in real life, you may forget things so your skill may decrease if you do not practice it.  Many people constantly confuse reference to a "skill based game" with meaning how fast you can twitch your mouse or how good your aimbot is.  No, that's not the case. A game with a level based system simply cannot be refered to an MMOWS or even a Sandbox game for that matter. Floating level numbers above your head is pure BS, it's an old and dated way of measuring things and should be left for the Themepark genre and people that don't have time to dedicate to things.  One should not be able to tell another person's skill by looking at a floating number above their head and this is the only way that it can work in a non-instanced open pvp world or noobs will constantly get slaughtered.
  • And finally, a true MMOWS is one where you enter the world with a feeling that there is endless possibilities and adventure. You should not have a "crosshair" in front of your face 24/7 being reminded that this is a "PvP game".  There is absolutely no need for quests or ANYTHING telling you "what to do".  The beauty of UO pre-trammel and the thing that attracted so many different people to it was that it was a "neutral setting", a true sandbox MMOWS where you log in and pretty much live a virtual life.  You build a house if you want, if someone tries to steal from you, you kill them, you should be able to take over/control towns/cities or build them from the ground up, there sould be endless crafting opportunities and there should be no need to EVER pick up a weapon to "have fun" in an MMOWS if you don't want to.  In a true MMOWS there will be TONS of FLUFF because without fluff, all you are left with is a cut and dry "pew pew game" like Darkfall where the only goal is to be a zombie footsoldier for some large power hungry guild wanting to control every city.

 

These are the core elements that a sandbox MMOWS game must have, it's the solid foundation to start from.  Now, a game surely could come in and add many more elements on top of this.  But if it's missing one of these above, you just cannot call it an MMOWS.  There will have to be another name for it, perhaps MMOFPS(like Darkfall).  Mortal Online is the only game that gives me hope that this dream will actually happen(since they tout real player housing unlike Darkfall), but a true MMOWS needs to drop the FPS+Friendly fire/Crosshair in your face 24/7 bs.  I would hope that a company out there is brave enough to make a truly beautiful MMOWS, in 10 years we've really only had 1 and that was Ultima Online pre-trammel which died a decade ago.  People are sick and tired of the Themepark games and 99.95% of MMORPGs out there are Themeparks.  ENOUGH!!!!!

"Who woke up and decided every MMORPG needs to have a UO-esque character development system"

You totally lost me there and threw out any credibility with that sentence.  When the hell since a game come out with a UO pre-trammel character development system?  Not in 10 years.  Not in 10 years has a game had all the elements of UO brought together.  I for one am TIRED of the WoW clones out there and could only wish there was at least 1 other UO pre-trammel clone in 3D.  We haven't had one and Darkfall and Mortal Online are not there yet.  Darkfall was a total disaster and Mortal Online with its continued Free For All Friendly Fire system is going to fail in the same manner.  FFA FF is not for everyone.  Hell, it did not even work in Quake 3 Arena, all the FF servers were empty.  DF and MO both competing for this extremely small niche are just going to destroy each other.

Give me a UO clone where there was open PvP and skill-based-character-progression.  PLEASE!!!!  I'M BEGGING!!!!!!!!
 

What?  Darkfall was released?  Who knew?

/sarcasm

 

Anyway, I agree with the first poster.  No one cares about Darkfall anymore, I was one of those hardcore supporters following it for years and ready to buy 3 copies of it despite how underwhelmed and dissapointed I felt as I played the beta.  The fact that they did not have their crap together at launch and I was not even able to buy 1 copy is what did it for me.  Since then, my "interest has dried up".

If there's one thing I hate, it's joining a game WAYYYYYYYYY after so many people have joined and had a head start.  Their unprofessional condescending staff doesn't help either.  Playing beta made me realize regardless that Darkfall is NOT what I am looking for.

Mortal Online is more along the lines of an Ultima Online spiritual successor with real player housing ect..  MO is what I am waiting for right now even though MO has some of the same features that totally destroyed my Darkfall experience such as FFA friendly fire.  FFA friendly fire simply does not work in an MMORPG setting, hell it did not even work in Quake 3 Arena.  No one played on the FF servers.  I'm saddened that MO is going that route and no, FF does not require more "skill", all it does is nerf any casting/archer classes, you'll be looked at like a newb with it, and it also totally nerfs casual pve grouping.

I do consider myself a hardcore player, but this free for all friendly fire is just taking things to the extreme.  If the only way you can have fun in a game is by being in a guild with vent and mic and having to deal with 14 year olds yelling in your ear, then that is not the game for me.  These indie companies are shunning a huge amount of players that would play this game in an already niche genre.

Hopefully one day a non-indie company will take note of the failures of Darkfall and Mortal Online and do it right.  I'd like to relive the UO expereince once again where yes open PvP is an intricate part of the game, but it's not all the game is about where you have to constantly be reminded of it with a crosshair in front of you everywhere you go. 

The problem is not first person view, the problem is when you give third person to melee and first person to archers and mages and screw them over the way Darkfall has.

Mortal Online needs to do right in their game and fix everything that Darkfall messed up.  Free For All style gameplay and FPS simply do not mix.  If Mortal Online follows the same steps and does melee third person and Free For All style play to exploit the alignment system then it is going to fail.

Again, Darkfall has a much better classless system so if Mortal Online wants to succeed, they need to stand out.  We already have a melee third person, Free For All game and that game is Darkfall.

Originally posted by altairzq

There will be always a few thousands of persons that will feel so passionate about almost any game. You got to understand that not everybody has the same taste.

 

This is where you are wrong and it is so obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about.  You and your Everquest avatar.... /eyeroll

Everquest has the SAME rule set as every other game, therefore it really doesn't matter if you are a fan of EQ, AoC, AO, WAR or whatever the hell there is out there.  All those MMORPGs are THE SAME.  There is nothing to differentiate your passion of each of those except the theme and graphics.  There is a big difference when you can feel passionate about something AFTER trying something else totally different.  We have tried your garbage games, but most of you never tried UO pre-trammel so that's where your arguments and "rationality" fails.

Darkfall is dramatically different than other games, that's why people who make ridiculous comments like you stick out like sore thumbs.  It is flat out obvious that you never played Ultima Online pre-trammel and you are absolutely oblivious to the experience that we are talking about.  You cannot compare watered down games like SWG and Eve to UO pre-trammel.

Sadly however, Darkfall left me greatly dissapointed.  After 9 years of waiting, the long wait does not justify the current state of the game and lack of key things within it such as custom housing ect and horrenous PvP..  This is nothing but a Shadowbane part 2 and a VERY watered down version of what a spiritual successor of UO should look like in 2009.

 

Mortal Online looks VERY promising and I admit, I haven't been following it as closely as I should, but after watching the latest trailer I am very impressed.  Hopefully it will be everything that Darkfall was not, I am still not happy with some of MOs features but it looks like it's going to smash DF.

Don't listen to Wizardry, anyone that references FFXI obviously doesn't know what thier talking about.   I think he would fit well with the WoW crowd.

A game like this is not about "advancing" and aquring as much "stuff" and "skills" as you can.  A game like this is about getting better through your skills over time with use and creating a niche build so you are actually useful and needed in the game instead of just switching your weapon at will and becoming an expert at everything.

People like Wizadry ruin MMORPGs.

Final Fantasy games are the ultimate snorefest for PvP.

Skill scrolls??  You poor souls still play this piece of crap?  Ultima Online died when EA took over(no surprise there) and they implemented Trammel back in 1999.  The only reason the name UO is still relevant anymore is because of how much MMORPG vets such as myself keep talking about and refering to the REAL World SImulation environment that the pre-trammel era provided that has not been seen by a single MMORPG til this very day.  Darkfall is the only game close to providing this feeling. The constant reference to this game "in the good ol days" is the only thing that attracts any new uninformed players to this game today.

As you can see anytime they create a new press release, forums like these are deserted.  Seriously, go away UO, you have let so many people down, the people making decsions over there are pathetic, you are totally clueless to what mmorpgers really want. 

You've perverted Richard Garriot's creation to nothing more than a cheap 2D WoW clone.

Originally posted by Magnum2103

I don't think they are going to make any sandbox MMOs unless sandbox MMOs start becoming popular.  Then they'll copy all the good features of those sandbox MMOs, add a whole bunch of polish, fill it with loads of pop culture references and easter eggs, and make it cater a bit more to casual players.  That's Blizzard's typical MO.

 

So first a semi-popular sandbox MMO needs to come out.  I don't think Darkfall will be popular enough to catch Blizzard's eye.  Maybe the KOTOR MMO if it has enough sandbox elements.  The Fallout MMO is a more likely bet.

 

You have GOT to be kidding me.  Darkfall won't be "popular enough to catch Blizzard's eye".  How long has Darkfall been one of the top anticipated games on MMORPG.com and mind you that this is a CAREBEAR WEBSITE.

With games like DarFall, Mortal Online and Renaissance currently being developed or releasing on the horizon all referencing Ultima Online pre-trammel you can be SURE that "sandbox" games will become popular again. 

 I just love it when noobs like you come on here throwing the word "sandbox" around like they really know what their talking about.  You are absolutely totally CLUELESS of how different UO pre-trammel was and how people like me have waited 10 YEARS for a game like Darkfall to come out.  You my friend, have obviously NEVER played UO pre-trammel it is flat out obvious or you wouldn't have posted what you just did. UO was more than just a "sandbox"  Fallout 3 is a "sandbox",  UO pre-tramel was a World Simulator, and Darkfall is looking to be that as well.

People in the MMORPG industry that have never played UO pre-trammel stick out like green thumbs to us.   You have no concept of what a true MMORPG experience should be like and referencing abomination sanbdox games such as SWG and EVE will not score you any points.

Go back to the instanced, level based, treadmill theme park pit of hell that you came from.

If Blizzard is going to even ATTEMPT to create a Sandbox World SImulator, this will truly be a MASSIVE project and they will have to throw out everything that they've ever known.  Right now DarkFall is poised to be the most massive seamless world there is, with the size of their NON-INSTANCED world rumored to be the size of Germany.  Blizzard is the McDonalds of the MMORPG industry, spitting out garbage and hyping it up with marketing while people who don't know any better eat it all up as if it were filet mingon.  I have absolutely no faith that they would succeed at a sandbox MMO, they will probably just give sandboxes more of a bad name the way SWG and EVE have.

WoW is the epitomey of theme park bull$hit.  Who the hell cares about AO, EQ and the rest, they are all the same theme park BS and this industry is SATURATED with it.

 

Thank goodness for DarkFall coming out.  2009 will be the year of something DIFFERENT and CHANGE.  Finally a true world simulator sandbox game to take back the crown of the long forgotten and corrupted Ultima Online since trammel was implemented back in 1999 and ruined everything.

 

The only reason why WoW seems to have "brought so many into the MMO market" is because they happened to be at the right place at the right time.  Many people started to have DSL/Cable when WoW was around and that was not the case with EQ.  Back in EQ1(the MMO that came after UO and turned the industry in the wrong direction for the past 10 years) most people started off with 56k.

 

Make no mistake about it, WoW WILL die.  ALl theme park games have about a 4 year life span.  EQ's prime lasted from about 2000-2004 and WoW's prime will be from 2004-2008.  WoW will begin to die off this year and revolutionary new games(or just games following the steps of UO pre-trammel) such as DarkFall and Mortal Online will help nail the coffin shut.  MMOers are dumb but they're not THAT dumb, it's like the people who voted for Bush the first time and then the second time, some of the smart ones will see the scam for what it is in the beginning, but give the rest of the idiots some time, they will eventually figure out that they are on an endless treadmill to no where and every "level" you go up is the same bullshit except they throw more sparkly/pretty things at you.

Originally posted by boognish75

I hope there will be nice long quests and story arcs to get involved in, so far it sounds like a decent game, just hopeing that 90% of the quests will not be ''tasks'' sending you repeatedly to do the mundane kill x amount of these, i like a good questing game where you dont notice the grind as it is put into the story-arc of a quest line and enables you to feel yer actually part of the adventure in the land.

 

-BARF-  QUESTS???  If quests/dungeon runs are what interest you in an MMORPG then go play WoW.

Your mind is so small.  I hope this game will be Darkfall's competition so that Aventurine does not become the lazy, cocky and overconfident "Our fanbase will play this game even if we have stickfigures walking around" that they have become.

 

Don't get me wrong, I will play Darkfall or Mortal Online before I even TOUCH the mind numbing garbage that is WoW or Everquest.  There just needs to be WAYYY more competition in the sandbox gaming industry.

 

Theme park games like WoW are like a roller coaster, that the devs build for you and once the ride is over, THAT'S IT, it's over, unless you want to ride the same thing again and again and again or they make another similar ride.  Sandbox games are more like World Simulators.  You are given a world and the possibilities are endless.  There is no "purpose", you make the game what you want it to be, these are the types of games that interest me and I cannot fathom how anyone would not like this unless they have not played UO pre-trammel, which seems to be the case for 95% of mmorpg newbies here on mmorpg.com.

You people are hilarious.

 

How easily do you all forget Ultma Online pre-trammel the MOTHER of all modern MMORPGS(I take it most of you are too young to have ever even played it ovbviously).  There are thousands of people to this very day(over 10 years later) who would still be playing UO even in 2D graphics.  Those "free shards" out there are an embarassment and do not count.  A game like UO is on a whole other level on its own and cannot be considered just an "mmorpg".  UO was unlike any other game we have seen to this day.  Darkfall is the ONLY game after 10 years that is poised to be its spiritual successor.  There is a reason why DarkFall's community is one of the most passionate communities online.

 

Most of you simply just don't "get it".  It's easy for you to sit there and refer to a game as a "sandbox" just because the only ones you've played are a perversion of UO such as SWG, EVE ect...  If you have not played UO pre trammel then you simply don't know crap about what a game like that has to offer.  To jumble UO together with SWG and EVE as just another "sandbox" is an insult.

 

But don't bother playing UO today.  Ultima Online is like the Michael Jackson of the gaming world... a king back in it's day, but after all the changes it's been through, it is one scary mofo to look at.

 

If Blizzard is going to create another MMORPG run of the mill "sandbox" similar to EVE or SWG then whatever.  I'm sure they will make it "successful" because after all you can literally get people to eat GARBAGE(mcdonalds, pepsi, ciggarrets, krispy kremes) with the properly funded marketing campaign.  WoW is currently the bane of any self respecting MMORPG veteran because it doesn't require a brain.  If Blizzard plans to actually recruit anyone that's not a noob to MMORPGs then they really need to study what exactly made UO successful back in the day and why people are still passionate about it til this day(NO it is not because it was one of the first mmorpgs around).  Blizzard also needs to sit down and actually read and research one of the most active and passionate gaming communities online at www.DarkfallOnline.com.  Blizzard ALSO MUST hire people in a team that have actually played UO pre trammel because that is the ONLY way that they will create a successful "sandbox".  It's just experience on your resume you MUST have in order to understand what you're getting into.  The Darkfall devs have actually played it and it's been VERY obvious to veterans.  This is a large part of the reason why they've been receiving the enormous attention that they're getting.

 

UO pre trammel and Darkfall aren't just "games", "mmorpgs" or "sandboxes", they are World Simulators - a huge difference.

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