Originally posted by OrionStar

Maybe in the future kids will be able to go to school in a MMO.

not that i never logged a lot of hours .... i logged  some decent numbers in d2&lod but nothing like todays grinders and raiders

i wonder if anyone can show statistical signficance and a relationship between game playing increases and percentage decline  in the number of american students in science, engineering, and computer science disciplines.

makes one wonder who is really schooling who in the art of skills progression

<<< believes in all good things in moderation and "too much of a good thing can be a bad thing" with the exception of $$$$ [is that the rule where there is always an exception to everything?]

if it's like linden labs - the kids would be generating flying sexual organs and nailing the teacher ....

xkey

Originally posted by Twohededboy

Where are we tech wise on game content? I am not asking about graphics but about making NPCs smarter, more reactive, quests more intuitive, weather more realistic, systems with in the program that allow players to be more immersed in the game world and allow them to interact more with the NPCs and the enviroment. How far can we push the content envelope?Also, are todays and tomorrows MMOs pushing said envelope?

Tough to tell unless one were to read a lot of the research literature how far behind they are...

in terms of graphics results as you noted todays games are not too far behind leading/bleeding edge of some research .  note none of the game studios at present that i'm aware of are looking at the viability of some of the new advances in realistic ray-tracing research - with 16 cpu boxes on the horizon and starting to top out at a terrabit of gates on gpu units it may turn out that old is new and maybe a paradigm shift might occur - but that would screw with a lot of the built-in massive man-hour game-graphic engines some of these companies have dev'd sooooo i dont foresee them breaking new ground until a maverick does so and gets fantastic results

in terms of audio? game companies aren't too close to leading/bleeding edge ... guys over at say fruityloops are a lot closer to the leading edge in audio development

in terms of mutli-cpu utilization/threading etc?  game companies are back in the pack just like most every company at present lol

i think the companies that are ahead right now are the ones pushing the cell processor - they are really getting their hands and heads in the nitty gritty of parallelism and it will show in the next 3 years worth of games ['im not really a console gamer so this isnt some fanboy pitch for the ps3 but in terms of the programming behind it .... that's one reason the games are a lil delayed - it's got a bit more learning threshold with ibms cell processor baby]

i doubt even  Blizz/Vivendi's next  mmo they are working on will be pushing any envelopes - it just isnt necessary right now for success - guess you could say it isnt "cost-effective"

when a company like linden labs can make money off an ugly virtual world and vivendi can live off wow-crack addicts, ncsoft can rake in big bucks off a fast turnaround on new releases to a free subscription model ..... there is *healthy* and plentiful competition - makes it painful to make huge leaps across many components of an mmo in terms of development because the ROI may be many many years away

the reaping in MMO just comes from the IP and the "luck" factor combined with getting a large enough lead over the competition - it worked great for MS in operating systems, it's working great for vivendi/blizz in MMOs, it worked well for iD and valve in  fps though iD really was pushing the envelope for a while! gotta give those guys props!

i remember the 'hope' for lotro - hopes of a million regular subscribers to blizz 8+ million ...  lotro is close to maybe half the million that some had hoped for.  i cant see conan making half a million. i can see warhammer making a half million regular subscribers within 15 months but anything past that is so foggy to predict. 

there are a few mavericks that might just push some of the envelopes though : ncsoft, bioware, maybe activision now post-merger that wants a big piece of that money-printing pie that blizz has in wow, or Microsoft - asherons call wasnt a bad game .... and they just might get back into mmo's via acquisition or maybe a surprise investment in some hit IP/mmo in production - and MS might just push some content envelopes believe it or not if they were to get back in they'd want to make a big splash like they did with halo 2 and 3 via bungie

later,

Xkey

Originally posted by axe_hero

I was reading around (don't quite remember where), anyways I saw that Microsoft is pushing to have C# the next big language. I was wondering if this is true. I know that they are really trying to push it above LUA for UI's and such, but usually you use C++ and LUA, so it would then be C++ and C#. I always thought C# was slower and designed as a more compact/portable language, while C++ is just a power house. I know C++ is really getting old now, but is C# poised to pass it as the most widely used language, and is C# even capable of doing so (power wise)?

    thanks

 

---axehero

Yes C++ is still the most powerful - able to use inline assembly very easily and with good compilers generates some speedy code. It is also still amongst the most complex of the most popular high level languages - I love it myself BUT i dont try to toss the kitchen sink in to some of what I do and I don't try to make it jump through hoops like some of the guys over at Boost [nice idea, some nice components in Boost but also some horrid complexity - use a different language to do some things or move the standards process along a little faster!]

The new C++ standard will be voted on in 2009 - presumably a thumbs up - the most recent draft is decent in my slightly biased opinion.

C# really plays off C & C++  - so did Java;  I havent used C# enough but i am pretty sure i can turn off or make sure some objects are faster by making sure the garbage collection mechanism doesnt get to deal with them [might have to do that at the .net level more or less with some C# calls *shrug* ? can anyone help me out here ? i just use enough C# to get by ....]

C# is faster than Java - it probably will supplant java unless sun's next version gets appreciably faster numerically....

Lua is .... kind of slow and takes a bit more learning than C# if you already know C and some simple OOP terminology and paradigm

Python ...at least the next version is going to be oooooh so much better than Lua and python still plays so great with C++ and C that ... I've just never bothered to do anything with Lua - think it just has a bunch of dedicated fanboys more or less.

XNA uses C# and directX to turn out some decent games for MS xbox platform as well as winblows pc games - since MS is really trying to both turn a decent profit in that industrial sector as well as build on it one would imagine the next rev of the C# standard [though MS put it out there somewhat open via ECMA, they still exert considerable influence over it's growth path ....]

If you are already an expert in C++ - dont sweat the lil stuff stick with that strength - if you know C but don't know C# or C++ i'd learn C# first - the avoidance of multiple inheritance makes for a lot less hairy code and designs in general and really makes it more of a RAD oop language.

as for being "old" C++ is a hybrid and we know  hybrids are the latest greatest tech!!!! seriously, C++ is still the best language and will be for the next decade - it's just very complex for todays lazy graduates and american students [take that from a non-lazy american graduate lol] i recall some of my fellow students were a class or 2 away from their entire bachelors in compsci and they still really didnt grasp pointers or just couldnt handle coding in them well! ridiculous the quality of some of the developers out there!

C# WILL NOT supplant C++  anytime soon - it will probably achieve something of a percentage parity on large projects within about 7 years time - stealing away some thunder from both java and c++ and vb;  this is just a shot in the dark but probably about 10 years from now there may be as many C# developers as C++ ***assuming*** sun doesnt improve java enough - if sun does improve java dramatically then C# won't catch C++

take the above with a grain of salt mind you but for the most part it is the way things will go

Thomas

PS if you dont think python isnt better than Lua - check out sage  http://sage.math.washington.edu/sage/ you wouldnt be able to use LUA on a project like sage

Originally posted by Spectra260

I hope its good, I just want a nice space mmog that you can actually walk around inside your ship and get off at planets and space stations as fps.   You should be able to buy a bigger ship to house your crew/clan and yell at them to gun when you start takin hits.  Or a really big ship that has a bay for fighters to hop in and fly out attack enemy ships.

isnt that sort of everyones dream [well replace firefly with each individuals' top choice mind you]??

mmorpgs are still in their infancy ....  Might and Magic, diablo & d2 kind of laid some of the groundwork along with Evercrack ....    i cant see this industry as mature for quite a few more cycles.

where as I see the fps genre as fairly mature - not beyond adding new tricks but  COD4, mass effect, gears of war ... all quality games 

presently we are still separating a lot of chaffe from the wheat in the mmorpg genre and will be doing so for the next decade

so there is plenty of room for more entrants to see which ones' "stick"

i think lucas and his licensing machine will come forth with a new SW mmorpg at some point in the next 5 years - and he does learn from his mistakes so it should be lightyears [har har] better

star trek is a lost cause UNLESS abrams turns the franchise around - they let the movie franchise die, they let voyager and tng end prematurely and let ds9 go on for far too long - paramount could apparently screw up a wet dream lol

i was a lot more hopeful about the upcoming stargate mmo until the developer canned Gods & Heroes (i think i am remember the title correctly) .... now i'm filled with blaise and thinking it will be lousy

turbine screwed up D&D .... - seriously think bioware should get another crack at turning D&D around - it was and still is the grandaddy and if done right could seriously challenge WoWs supremacy ... unlike LOTRO which is a good game but just isnt getting traction

babylon 5 - has fresh movies coming out, a pretty expansive universe - it would have made a better space game for NCSoft to develop than tabula rasa *meh* ncsoft isnt perfect apparently

the matrix ... too early too feature lacking - they should retool it better than sony did dev'ing eq2  as a replacement to eq;  the matrix concept allows for an unlimited universe and universe within the universe but doubt they are re-tooling it (havent seen any rumors anyhow)

a dragonriders universe would be nice ....

a red dwarf mmo would be funny - but probably wouldnt achieve a large enough subscriber base

dc universe mmo .... still waiting to see that puppy, think they should have just gone with a batman - gotham one at first and then add new content akin to how ncsoft  built its subscriber base with fast releases of new GW content

ah i'm getting way expansive here but .... that's what a mind is for isnt it :)

gnite,

xkey aka thomas

Bah semantics and quibbling and here I am joining in to toss in my 2 cents.

Let's toss out a few definitions for cannon fodder first:

friend - noun

5.	(initial capital letter) a member of the Religious Society of Friends; a Quaker.

A person whom one knows, likes, and trusts.

A person whom one knows; an acquaintance.

A person with whom one is allied in a struggle or cause; a comrade.

One who supports, sympathizes with, or patronizes a group, cause, or movement

Word History: A friend is a lover, literally. The relationship between Latin am?cus "friend" and am? "I love" is clear, as is the relationship between Greek philos "friend" and phile? "I love." In English, though, we have to go back a millennium before we see the verb related to friend. At that time, fr?ond, the Old English word for "friend," was simply the present participle of the verb fr?on, "to love." The Germanic root behind this verb is *fr?-, which meant "to like, love, be friendly to." Closely linked to these concepts is that of "peace," and in fact Germanic made a noun from this root, *frithu-, meaning exactly that.

--

Anyhow one man's friend is another man's acquaintance!

Those who say one cant have "online friends" or there is a difference - HELL YES you can have online friends and HELL YES there is a difference - every single one of my friends is different and THE RELATIONSHIP WITH EACH ONE **IS** DIFFERENT

gee, what a novel concept [kinda like this tome of a reply lol] - people are always quick to stupidity and quick with their opinionated replies because they prefer to narrow their definitions and want to give out definitive answers in posts

blahhhhhh - life at our perceptual level is so much more continuous than discrete - i do make a distinction between friends and acquaintances but online/vs real-life is an irrelevant factor

would i die for them? would i trust them with my cell number or a personal check or a critical task? do i confide in them? do i talk of personal matters to them or keep it strictly business? so many similar criteria and characteristics play into whether i decide someone is a friend or merely a 'distant acquaintance' and that distance isnt necessarily of the physical kind - they could be my cubicle mate 2 feet away but never be a friend!

physical proximity is not an important relevant factor in determination of friendship

is it nice to meet a friend physically ? YES indeed!

xkey

Babylon 5

Dr Who

A better Star Wars MMO

Evercrack 3 [reward  EQ & EQ2 diehards]

Robotech

GI Joe [a real american hero]

DC & Marvel universes [oh .... it's still a pipe dream as it could be another 5 years before we see these]

WoW meets Diablo 3.5

Quake in MMO form

Farscape

WestWorld

Isaac Asimovs  robot series

Originally posted by 9216544

So I am writing a paper why we should use meritocracy in education and I was looking at wiki and came across this:

"Although formal meritocracies are uncommon online, informal ones are much more prevalent. They often occur in online games such as MMORPGs where the best players are more likely to become guild leaders or be otherwise influential.^[4], although the ability to invest large amounts of time and/or money is also important. Also there is a tendency among open source projects for meritocracies: The more able a programmer seems to be, the higher his position (albeit informal) will be."

Thought that was pretty cool to come across that. It is interesting how much freedom mmo's have and how certain people can flourish socially. Just wanted to see what you guys think. Are MMORPGs based on peoples merits?

Meritocracy means a system in which advancement is based on individual ability or achievement.

I only follow one 'Individual' in life.    In a game? meh who the heck cares its' a flippin game - enjoy what you want of it but never take it too seriously

Peace,

x

Originally posted by Ailes

I just thought I would create this thread just to see how many people we have here that make games.

Be honest, no one knows who you are in this poll.

 

[well, I guess they count if i include a counter but ya know what i meant ....]

Peace.

Well I'll stake some middle ground - I think 'c2p' or cheap to play may be the preferred place to be.

The game cost upfront would mostly cover a lot of the game devel.  A small monthly fee rather than $15 a month [man some at vivendi are getting their pockets lined with gold ...] is probably the "sweet spot" so to speak

Rationale ::

1) as noted  purchase price of the game will with enough quantity sold pay for a lot of the dev cost

2) the playing field is getting crowded - very crowded  -  products that may seem superior may not reach a large enough subscriber base  - a larger subscriber base can help sustain continued revenue growth for these companies

2a) by differentiating yourself with a quality product but at a lower recurring price you may increase said subscriber base

3) the more people coming into mmos are expecting more bang for their buck - so if you charge a bit less you dont have to offer them the entire world just a sliver of it

4) servers,bandwidth, support people, dev people working on patches/content upgrade dont' just grow on trees/come free so a small monthly fee covers those costs

5) people like cheap/free  so the closer you can get to that model the better BUT with all trade-offs no one says you have to sink down to free -  there is a sweet spot where people are willing to pay for what they get [or if they are idiots they are willing to pay $15 a month lol]

6) some of the f2p charge you for elite/higher quality items or other character enhancements on an item by item / feature by feature basis - for some this might work but for most people they dont want to have to be bothered with these details and still others may find it a 'cheapening' of the game experience.   a low monthly fee makes for a level playing field and the 'expected' random items ,  grinds etc  

ncsoft has gone to somewhat of this middle ground with dungeon runner,  you see games like oblivion or  snw going the route of buying items etc

 i'd go back to playing eq2 if they would drop the price to $7 or $8 a month *shrug*

i am 'unsure' of the model being used on Hellgate:London - it may be another popular route in the future for mmos.

just my 2 cents x a recurring monthly fee,

xkey

Originally posted by Sovren1

Personally I think Guildwars is Diablo 3 but hey, that's me. If Blizzard will do better than their former employees over at Anet....cha ching. I will definitely be playing.

If Blizzard were to release another MMO, I would kinda hope it's an original idea, Not something based on franchises they have already, something new. Although I wouldn't mind Diablo or Starcraft as a persistent world. Just would hope that it's actually balanced.

I'm sure Blizzard being the rookie team in the MMO world that they would only improve on what they have done. That's something all the bashers don't understand I guess, wow was their first attempt. Other publishing co's, gaming co's have had experience putting out projects and not doing as well.

*Kinda Off Topic* I remember hearing that White Wolf was going to make an MMO. Rumor? I don't recall who was going to help them make it, or if it was going to be Vampire: the requiem, or Werewolf: the Forsaken. OOOH, what if Blizzard is making this one for them?

Hellgate:London == Diablo 3    [wouldnt mind seeing blizz buy a 33% stake in flagship and help flagship make a Hellgate:LA expansion ;  since most of flagship was part of blizz it would be like coming 'half-circle' getting funding from  the ol homesake while still remaining mostly independent and definitely more well-funded]

Peace,

x

Originally posted by Lasastard

I kinda get the impression that some people feel as if they HAVE to play MMOs. I know, I know - you dont want any suggestions about other genres, but maybe, just maybe, you should try something totally different. Computer games are just games and if you find that you cant stick to a game, maybe its because you have reached a point where MMOs just dont cut it any more - happened to many others before, me included.

See, I still read these boards every once in a while, simply because it is interesting to see what's going on, but I quit online gaming a good while ago, simply because it bored me. Its like eating the same kind of food every day, even if its your favorite dish - eventually you'll find that you just had enough. MMO'ing is like a habit and i personally found it a bit difficult to let go - you just get used to come home, start up the computer and level your toon. But really, you should stop if you realize that it doesnt really hold your interest any more and find something else to do. Otherwise its just a waste of time.

Just browse through the boards and look at all those threads complaining about how MMOs are not what they used to be and what not, but really its just a sign that people outgrow the games that played such an important role in their everyday life and now dont know what to do with their time ...

MMos and online gaming are a good *somewhat* clean source of entertainment - it beats pi**ing ones' money down the toilet at the bar and killing off several hundred brain cells. 

If you feel you need a break - your choice; if you crave it and become consumed by it - once again your choice. So I am somewhat agreeing with you while disagreeing *snort* 

I wouldnt compare it to favorite dishes etc - need food to live - don't "need" entertainment.   I wish I had enough time to not know what to do with my time.

Peace,

x

Isnt the obvious choice Hellgate:London ?  (the only other mmorpg that seems as excellent as this on the horizon is warhammer but this will beat it to the punch and rack up several hundred thousand in holiday sales - cant beat that with a 10 foot pole)

It's still on target for Halloween. 

Oh yeah why are a few diehards so keen on Conan?  Govinator addiction?  Granted it is *supposed to be* only for a mature audience but one knows that will break down or there will only be a few diehards playing it .... won't ever be mmorpg more like smorpg

<<< can still say he has never touched WoW; too busy raising my level 2 human :) [might get her into LOTRO when the snows finally hit in January]

Tom

I usually buy some older stuff (like half-life anthology or whatnot) from gogamers 48 hour madness

but it seems I usually end up buying a new release I want from either Best Buy or Circuit City brick & mortars on release day depending upon which one has it on sale upon release

[i don't do the midnight release thing ... didnt pick up D2LOD until afternoon on its release day at best buy]

So besides  gogamer  or amazon what are the best online stores for PC Game deals on a 'regular' basis?  and on new-release days?

[i ask mainly because i'm looking forward to hellgate london and the new starcraft mmo and gw2 ]

C++ya,

x

simple query -  i'm just wondering why Hellgate London isnt listed in the Games In Development subframe?

it probably doesnt have the mass notice and notoriety that some of the others in the subframe list have but considering D2 was the most popular game of it's time(outside korea where starcraft ruled) and the alpha releases of hellgate look good it just seems that it should rate more attention and listing(s) than it does. [blizz would not be where they are at today if not for some of the people who have helped craft Hellgate London]

<shadow>

x