[quote]You should be having so much fun playing that occasionally you look down and say, "Cool, when did I level?".[/quote]

 No better summary have I seen.

  With apologies to the original poster; this was a comment on a Blog i had weeks ago.

I thought his points were good enough that they deserved attention; and unlike the other posters; his is so new no one will ever see it on a lost old blog. I hope and expect some of the other posters will repost their comments again as well here - the coomenst on that blog were allo very very well articulated.

Xix13- Thu Nov 01 2007 4:32AM

• A few points stand out.  Yes, there's grind to keep the subs going.  But the most famous sacred cow of grinding is that the FREE to play games are even MORE of a grind!

  Secondly, book publishers have one major advantage over MMO companies:  they deal with WRITERS!  People who are somwhat conversant in the language in which they write, AND are PAID to develop stories.  MMO devs are PROGRAMMERS.  The language they speak is geek, er, C++ or some other such.  They are paid to develop MECHANICS.  OK, so how about paying a WRITER to work on the team too.  Well, they do.  But they ain't paying for a Tom Clancy, David Drake, Terry Pratchett, Robert Jordan or Carl Hiaasen.  They're paying a guy fresh out of school who's taking his first shot at creative writing for pay.  Some are good, some OK, some terrible.  Some are all 3 in the same game.

  Case in point is Auto Assault.  This game (which I loved, sadly gone now) was all about story.  3 factions.  The writing and the story for the Mutants was absolutely terrific.  You actually felt some emotion and got some yuks ocassionally.  The Biomek story was OK.  The Human story was virtually non-existant, a series of standard Kill X and Fed Ex missions strung together.

  This implies, of course, that players will actually READ the mission text.  Well, I do, but I'm also the one the group yells at "Hurry up, Xix!" or leaves behind as they head into the room/corridor.

  All that being said, I don't think that MMO devs should be as concerned with providing Shakespearean content as for providing a framework in which players can make their OWN content.  Hence, I always prefer the "sandbox" style of game.  My favorite MMOs to date have been pre-CU SWG (top of the list by far), UO, Horizons and EVE.  I happily pay/paid for these games and could spend hours online doing whatever I felt like whenever I felt it.

  The linear grind games are the norm now.  Sandboxes are shutting down or being destroyed.  That puts a HUGE amount of pressure on the dev companies to provide constant new CONTENT, and they aren't equipped for that.  I don't for the life of me know how they expect to succeed with that model.

Yeebo; lol

" I think they were crippled by being given sub-par setting, and also by somewhat insane design decisions early on.  I appluad them for trying to do something different, but in the end they designed a game that would appeal little to the PnP crowd or the MMO crowd. 

 I just said something very similar to your  paragraph in another thread.

If I'm nuts at least i"m in some company.

 I am often ambivalent about DDO but you have to give them some credit for being as original as any investor would probably let them be.

 ** ps : edit: i type so slowly and interrupted-ly - that i had not seen the post before this when i finally was able to hit post**

 actually i think you both made great points...

 Nurgles IMO is correct - the forums by their very nature ted to skew towards people likely to complain - people having a great time on their MMo are ready to log on there more than here.  Just my opinion but it seems reasonable that the sample is inherently a skewed cross-section rather than a "fair" representation of the MMo audience.

  It may not be true of other industries; but I htink to some degree it IS true of other forums - and not just online forums... complaining is often the "least common denominator" of discussion; and it does allow an element of comedy ( as i just attempted).

On the other hand; as the OP said ; DDO seems to attract a little more ? disparagement? - and i also think this is specifically because of what attempts it made to do something new.

  Interstingly; you can see that i hate the operant playstyles / assumptions of Several of the MMO's - but much to the OP's point; I believe; you don't see me showing up on the WoW or EQ forums to tell them how lame THEIR game is because it doesn't conform to my expectations of what an MMO "should" be

 ( a game like DDO that uses an IP or existing rules set invites this of course; but thats not most of the complaints I've seen).

 The nail that sticks up gets hammered down?

KT/neil -

  You find me in full agreement - I had 2 guilds in DDO a good chunk of our players were those who had come to the game looking for a less-cookie cutter MMO-

  Some of my more MMO-experienced players explained to me ( and this relates to how i ended up on the mmorpg site in fact) that the very things that I so bitterly complained about were the things that were compromised to keep the MMO-ers happy...

 so we had an odd situation where the mmo-ers were upset it was too much unlike whatever MMo they had set their standards around (which always made me wonder why they left it in the first place) - and those on the other spectrum upset as it had dared too little -

 nonetheless it sports a stealth system usually only equalled in single-player stealth games; AI that has monsters (when it works :) ) call for help... and of course a different form of combat -

 my GF whose first MMo was DDO; refuses to play any of the "slow boring combat games"; in fact.

But I'm sorry; my point was to praise you for sayong succintly what always takes me so many words to do so -

 for a bunch of people who say they want something new;  doesn't seem to be much willingness to give such a try.

 Imagine ,more-over, if DDO had catered a little LESS to MMO "sacred cows" and more to D&D-

 no cheating-ass coward twink-it-up Equip-to-win AUCTION HOUSE..

 or no CHEATING COWARD  Ranged heals with random coward bonus to the heal points so the STUPID heal-as-fast-as-hurt Heal-p-s vs DPS actually WORKS like in other mmo's...

  And dont get me started on the 20 free hit points so nobody gets a Diaper Rash!...

 the game would have generated even more whining

I'm sorry - maybe that - that i went into rant mode proves you even more right - in trying to please both camps they seem to have pleased but a small fraction of either; and more's the pity because IMO it was the only game of that genre willing to try anything new; really.

 I absolutely agree -

 The people repeating quests do so DESPITE that there are more quests at any given level than you can do at that level (ie without leveling - altho you  dont actually HAVE to go gain your level)

  I constantly ask people why they are doing a quest agin on hard or elite rather than simply doing a NEW QUEST - its entirely a matter of taste.

 My problem is different but related - it is almsot impossible for me to find a party to do a quest with where all of them haven't done the quest hundreds of times; know it by heart; and spoil it for anyone who hasn't.

 some of them are just level-ing alts to get them to the part of the game they WANT to be in - but still no reason to spoil it for others.

  Notice in both cases this isn't the GAMES fault - its a consquence of a game where the majority of the players are NOT new and are "re-do-ing"...

 Random dungeons - or at least RANDOM PLACEMENT in dungeons - would go a long way to relievin the boredom that such players generate (and probably suffer from0.

HP Lovecraft's influence on the Horror genre cannot be overstated...  Certainly all fiction builds on other fiction; but Lovecraft was closer to original than most; and more directly... accessed than most. 

Yet despite being constantly listed as an influence by such writers as Stepheren King;  Dean Koontz; Clive Barker; even being mentioned in Metallica songs; most people have no idea who Lovecraft was or what he wrote about.

  A game designer wa asked WHY almost no games or movies of the Mythos exist; and why those least faithful to it seem most successful.

 • One key Lovecraftian theme is corruption of the self. The narrator is shocked and horrified to discover he's really a Deep One, possessed by the Great Race, etc. How would the gaming audience greet this revelation? "Cool! What powers do I get?"

"Lovecraft's message will never be popular, either in computer games or society. But like Jeff, we should be OK with that. The insight embodied in the Cthulhu Mythos stories will still keep attracting disciples with its one fundamental, undeniable strength: Like it or not, it's true. We remember great writers because they convey what we call "timeless truths"; Lovecraft unblinkingly conveys truth, with its awful implications for humanity, on a time scale of thousands, millions of years.

And just as in Lovecraft's stories, the truth - unlike his doomed protagonists - survives."

Allen Varney designed the PARANOIA paper-and-dice roleplaying game (2004 edition) and has contributed to computer games from Sony Online, Origin, Interplay and Looking Glass.

 ____________________________________________________________________

"Anyway, while I was looking up the spelling of "f'tagn," I found this gem:

Yes, Virgina, there is a Great Cthulhu. He exists as certainly as the cold unfeelingness of the cosmos exits, and you know that this meaninglessness abounds and gives to your life its highest absurdity. Alas! how comfortable would be the world if there were no Cthulhu! It would be as comforting as if a Santa Claus truly did care and reward children for doing good. There would be childlike faith then, a world of sweet believable poetry and romance to make existence idyllic and appealing. The external light with which childhood fills the world would never end.

Originally posted by daelnor

 

 

LOL. You really didn't play daoc much then. Granted, I can't blame you for your ineptitude, there is a steep learning curve to daoc's UI. I'm sorry if they didn't give you little flashy lights to tell you when to use your skills, and if you stood in one place during pvp and auto attacked, you most likely got rolled repeatedly until you got mad and quit.

...

DAOC combat kicked the crap out of WoW combat. Granted, if I wanted to see toons hopping around like some demented easter bunny on crack, I'd go play wow PVP.

D.

 D; I have been up for hours playing insomniac...

  That post just made my morning.

 Thank You!

Originally posted by daelnor

Bah, you went and smashed his dreams...you are cruel, cruel people.

p.s. I hope bioware does an original IP, it will most likely turn out much better...as much as a forgotten realms ip sounds cool...I just don't think anyone would pull it off right. One misstep and everyone will hate you.

D.

 If you get an chance or interest; do a search for 4th Edition D&D rules..

 see the absolute FLIP-OUTS on the forums by all the realms fans as their world get shafted for the new rules changes.

  Now those little "make it accessible to the kiddies" BASTARDS know how I felt in the 80's when their hello kitty version of D&D and their cartoon and UGH

 ruined MY perfectly good game

  I think I've made it clear I'm a pretty fair fan of ol' Yahtzee (the reviewer, not the game)

and his latest;

although in theory a review of tabula rasa; is really a review of MMO's...

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/zeropunctuation/2326-Zero-Punctuation-Tabula-Rasa

i always always hated the bunny hop

 I'm glad for the water-slowdown tho - ranging enemies from the top of sewer "runs" who charge into our melee-ers

( so they;not we; get the -4) was a standard tactic of my old guild.

  But hey i think  re-posting the screenshot here would be worthwhile!

 (besides i forgot my forum password)

"signed"

 you could always go to the market in DDO and watch people "HANG" in mid-air NBA-envy-provoking jumps when it "hitched" -

I've noticed it does something like that when there's a "hiccup" in the connection; sometimes even in instances...

 I think the patch has definitely reduced that.

 Well---

 " No-twinks " :

So far as i use the term; DDO in its attempt to make a viable online econmy in a game with no crafting;

 made  the loot drops farbelow the quest levels

 as a result people tend to "little brother" mail all their equipment to their lower-level alternate characters; since most of what you find in your level 4 or 5 quests will be usuable by your level2...

  Doing this is what I at least refer to as twinking...

 I mean; all jokes aside when a level 2 or 3 character whips out a +1 flame/shock sword or whatever; the game balance completely changes.

  also; its always far easier to but a weapon off the Ah than to actually find it - prices and economy are odd when magicitems are an infinite commodity...

  Gymkata!

 Holy Cow that movie was BAD!

  That was terrible!  Thanks SO much for making me remember that; lol! I hate you!

 gymkata reminded me of KARTEKA, playing it on our high-school computer lit with schnapps during lunch break with my best friend

My GF got Pathfinder because she thought it looked pretty...

 I don't think she was impressed.

Wow...

 Is it bad that I like both of those?

  ( I thought 5th fell into disappointing formula at the end -  and the later highlanders made me want to tear my face off)

 But mine is Conan The Barbarian ( the first one; before they got the idea of trying to make a PG conan movie)...

 I still to this day watch it  - and am amazed that Dino was able to make what seems like such an obvious backhand to the "death religions" and get way with it unnoticed.  I felt the same way about Matrix of course.

   I am concerned that LouiseK is right...

 From what I see... the market has spoken and the demand is for more "kill 20 bunnies to get a recipe for spiced bunny stew and bunny-fur armor (+3 to Overwhelm with Cutesy ability)"

  I just see that immersion is particularly taht important to most gamers?  I remeber reading somewhere an author speculate that Asian gamers like a game to be a a game and Western gamers like their RPG's to be a story... and I'm wondering if that holds up.

  In my current MMO which i find a little thin on story; I've found most of the other players haven't even bothered to read the NPC's speeches in their hurry to 'get to the good part" ...

   So much for immersion in the story right?  ( in fairness; when you're in a party it does feel like wasting everyone's time) -

  But perhaps more people would "notice" and interact with the story if the games amde an effort to make such interaction more than going to the next guy with a "QUEST" symbol on his head...

  ...and perhaps if more people demanded story-interaction - beyond killing 20 bunnies- the market might see a need to develop such.

 pardon bill

 yeah I took the plunge and re-upped my DDO

 and immediately found that the game's ABSOLUTE lack of game balance kills the fun for me.

  To me it was more about "cheating" by mailing gear from characters that don't know each other to make missions easier - and the LAUGH OUT LOUD -" IntraVeneous Healing Potion Drip "  - by which players replace challenge with extra resources.

 I had a guild that was no spoilers/no twinks; then added Rez-Out; Stay Out - many player's lack of interest in playing a game that wouldn't bend over to lose to them meant that group was never a large one.

 argonesson - say hi if you see me!

  If you get a chance to read the interview on Force of Arms it mentions that the combat system was sufficiently detailed that it was cumbersome for "tabletop" play but is rewarded by computerized play (squad leader, anyone; lol)...

  I think this fairly well guarantess that this will NOT be  your cookie-cutter fantasy/everquest MMO combat model with different skins as we have seen before.

  Unlike many MMO's; this is being done by people who are fans of the game; rather than; as I suspect is the usual case; Devs who are just fans of older MMO's...

 There ARE - has always been - other ways to do things.  I expect we''ll see one alternative illustrated soon.

ah; syko...

  Do you feel flamed?  Shouldn't.

  I DO disagree with your tagline - and I have as much right to express my opinion of it; as you have to express it...

 But yes; I regret what i believe to be the case: that mmo's being for an audience that actually likes to roleplay...

  or think...

  or be challenged...

Is; if not over; certainly overwhelmed by the "accessibility"/ Least common denominator market.

  A little satire should offend no one - except maybe; perhaps, the 'mainstream' I was satirizing.

    I'm not sure why 'roleplaying' would have been confused with 'carebears' anyway ( I must have been using that term incorrectly up 'til now) - but if you've read any of my other stuff; i'm not sure that too many games have any roleplaying elements anyway.

   "Character advancement" is confused for RPG; often by the same Hack N Slash; loot N Level style of  gamers I was actually satyrizing.

 Applauding.