Seeing as their website has 4 classes listed and 2 giant question marks below them:

http://www.wildstar-online.com/uk/the-game/classes/

I'm going to have to go with 7. The game will defnitely have 7 classes at release. Mark my words.

Sigh...

I was actually planning to start playing this again with the previous FTP scheme...

I was even willing to drop some cash to for example unlock some species and other things to make the great storylines more enjoyable.

But this?

A hotbar restriction?

Come on...

Ah well... guess I'll spend my money on something else then.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by gobla

Originally posted by Quirhid
 

I'm not claiming all materials need to be equal. Just that they need to be usefull in some form.

To a manufacturer in EvE a piece of tritanium always helps, it's not nearly as good as a piece of technetium, but he can definitely use it regardless of how basic or advanced the things he's creating. Same goes for every single other material used in manufacturing, there will always be a use for it now or in the future.

To a crafter in your average MMO however low-grade crafting materials soon come to be utterly useless. There'll be literally nothing remotely usefull they can craft with it. Crafting with it won't raise any skills. There is no demand for the created items as they are outleveled in minutes. They're a stepping stone that loses all it's value once passed.

And I'm merely saying that the claim "every material must be useful" is idealistic and unreasonable.

EDIT: With the variety you'd want that is.

I'd agree that it's unlikely we'll ever see such a system perfectly balanced in a game. Perfect balance doesn't exist.

I would still say that we should strive for it though, to make every material useful.

There's, imho, a big difference between designing a material as useless, as your average themepark does, and designing them all to be useful imperfectly, as for example EvE does.

You're very right that some modules and ships aren't actually all that useful due to game imbalances, in turn making some materials less useful. But behind this is still the intent for them to be useful, meaning that with patches the balance can shift making previously useless modules useful and the other way around, in turn doing the same for the required materials.

To me that makes a difference.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by gobla

Originally posted by Quirhid
 

Hardly.

Simply make every item require a large variety of materials.

If iron items also require a measure of bronze to craft then this will insure there's still a demand for bronze, which in turn stimulates a healthy supply as well as competition which will cause the market for bronze items themselves to remain alive as well.

EvE is a wonderfull example of this. There are many rare materials from moons and wormholes that are required to create advanced T2 and T3 items. Yet in order to construct any of these materials you still require all the base materials in EvE.

Around 99% of all modules in EvE require the most common material, tritanium, to be constructed.

Yet there's still materials which are worth fighting for and materials which are not worth fighting for. For example technetium is a "bottleneck" material which is crucial for T2 industry. Also, the profit to effort ratio varies greatly between materials. Mining trit is easy whereas other materials require more effort; however, often the effort does not reflect the profit you get.

 

It is also worth to note that a significant portion of the ships and modules in the game are very unpopular or practically unused. This in turn affects demand and which materials are useful or not.

 

"Lets make everything require everything" is not really a solution either, wouldn't you say?

I'm not claiming all materials need to be equal. Just that they need to be usefull in some form.

To a manufacturer in EvE a piece of tritanium always helps, it's not nearly as good as a piece of technetium, but he can definitely use it regardless of how basic or advanced the things he's creating. Same goes for every single other material used in manufacturing, there will always be a use for it now or in the future.

To a crafter in your average MMO however low-grade crafting materials soon come to be utterly useless. There'll be literally nothing remotely usefull they can craft with it. Crafting with it won't raise any skills. There is no demand for the created items as they are outleveled in minutes. They're a stepping stone that loses all it's value once passed.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by gobla

So... the #1 rule of sandboxes is that it has no rules?

Nope. The #1 rule is: YOU don't get to tell ME how to play.

You as in the developers? In which case no game is a sandbox. In every single game the creators impose limits and restrictions in the confines of which gameplay exists.

Or you as in other players? In which case every game fulfills that rule, as long as the player has even half a spine. In every single game you're free to do whatever the hell you want in the confines of gameplay, regardless of what other players feel.

What you're saying is completely meaningless in regards to games.

A sandbox is defined by it's box. The confines and restrictions in which the game takes place. That's what makes them interesting. All sand and no box and the entire game loses all it's meaning, not that you can even call it a game in that case.

Meaningful choices require restrictions. Choosing between A and B only has meaning if the restriction that you can't have both exists. And if there's one thing that's at the core of a sandbox it's the choices of it's players and those choices only have meaning if there are rules telling them how to play, telling them what the consequences of their choices are.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by defector1968

Originally posted by Roxtarr
I would love to see a 'master list' of Sandbox rules.  I'm curious as to what they actually are.

yes and will be the joke of the year

The whole point of sandboxes is rather the opposite, what rules?

At this point I pretty much reflexively disagree with anybody who proposes a rule about what a "true" gamer or a "true" sandbox needs to be.  The op avoided that "true" word, but he gave us the same thread.

So... the #1 rule of sandboxes is that it has no rules?

Which is one heck of a contradiction if I ever saw one.

Not to mention that any game is, in essence, nothing more than a set of rules. From chess, as defined by the unique properties of the board and each piece, to any MMO, as defined by it's programming.

Games are, by very definition, rules. A game without rules isn't a game at all, let alone a sandbox game.

Originally posted by Larloch

Originally posted by Apraxis

Ok. i will try.

 

Thanks I figured it would be something like that. I guess I simply don't agree that crafting should be the main catalyst for the evolution of a fantasy Sandbox mmo world.

Crafting is definitely a cornerstone of a traditional sandbox, along with PvP.

Crafters supply equipment and items of all kinds, from weapons and armor to constructions, to the PvPers to fight with. These can be destroyed to create a constant demand for crafting.

PvPers fight over territory containing valuable resources for the crafters to make things with. These are used up in crafting to create a constant demand for the territories containing the materials.

Those two demands interacting with each other is generally what creates the dynamic player-driven world of a sandbox.

That being said, I'm sure it's not the only way to create a dynamic player-driven world. But it's one way that's been proven to work.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by gobla

Very true. Both of these really form the core of a sandbox's economy, which is a vital part of it.

Whilst less important I'd add an additional rule that every material must be usefull.

Standard MMO crafting progression starting with bronze, which is soon replaced by iron and others, eventually repliced by arcanium / unobtanium / magical super metal #36 doesn't really work for a sandbox as it will turn 90% of items and crafting recipes effectively useless.

This in turn will, once the game reaches maturity, leave you with an overpriced and barren newbie item market and leave all areas that don't possess the best crafting materials empty and devoid of any player industry.

Sure. But lets be honest, not every material can be made useful. There will be materials which are less useful or outright useless. Its a balance thing.

Hardly.

Simply make every item require a large variety of materials.

If iron items also require a measure of bronze to craft then this will insure there's still a demand for bronze, which in turn stimulates a healthy supply as well as competition which will cause the market for bronze items themselves to remain alive as well.

EvE is a wonderfull example of this. There are many rare materials from moons and wormholes that are required to create advanced T2 and T3 items. Yet in order to construct any of these materials you still require all the base materials in EvE.

Around 99% of all modules in EvE require the most common material, tritanium, to be constructed.

Very true. Both of these really form the core of a sandbox's economy, which is a vital part of it.

Whilst less important I'd add an additional rule that every material must be usefull.

Standard MMO crafting progression starting with bronze, which is soon replaced by iron and others, eventually repliced by arcanium / unobtanium / magical super metal #36 doesn't really work for a sandbox as it will turn 90% of items and crafting recipes effectively useless.

This in turn will, once the game reaches maturity, leave you with an overpriced and barren newbie item market and leave all areas that don't possess the best crafting materials empty and devoid of any player industry.

Originally posted by Jonoku
I dont understand how it can be so exciting to some people, its dull and nothing new, get over it.

Handpicked especially for you :)

Plan on returning and enjoying the great storylines and levelling experience SWtOR has to offer.

The rest of the game unfortunately fell short, but I greatly enjoyed the first few months I played.

I'll see if I can organise a little group from this site to level up a bunch of new characters as soon as the date is announced.

Probably not the most mature of responses but I can't help but snicker at how silly this looks.

It kinda looses the coolness if he's just firing non-stop without ever reloading and his cannon keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger.

Although I suppose the latter might be a common fantasy amongst Asian men.

It just looks too much over the top. Coolness needs to be balanced by a hint of reality, because it's only cool in contrast to the mundane. If everything is cool then nothing is actually cool.

Originally posted by Foomerang

Actual amount of eve players is about a third of its subscription numbers. Multiple accounts are common so are bots.

Does it matter?

Regardless of whether the money comes from 400.000 people or just 100 people it's still 400.000 subscriptions being paid.

And before you start on PLEX you should realise that each and every PLEX has been bought for $20 as opposed to the normal $15 subscription fee. Meaning that every account PLEXing is earning CCP 1,33 subscriptions, even if that money doesn't come from those accounts themselves.

CCP is pulling in nearly seven million dollars a month from EVE. I'm quite sure that's more than most, if not all, of SOE's other MMOs. And, unlike standard themeparks, the competition for sandbox MMOs is minimal.

SOE attempting to go the sandbox route is, imho, a very smart move. Whether or not it's successful and leads to games that aren't just good for the publishers but also the players will remain to be seen.

I think it'll depend highly on what you'll consider a success.

I can easily see it becoming a go-to game for people to play with friends in-between more serious games. The storylines and other features provide one of the best, if not the best, levelling experience I've ever seen in a MMO.

I can not see it becoming a serious hardcore MMO with anything more than very small raiding and PvP communities.

My guess will be that it'll turn into a game where the starter zones are more heavily populated than the market hubs. A game where people level up with friends, experience the best parts the game has to offer, and then move on to other games. Possibly eventually returning to level up another alt.

Whether or not you consider that a success I can't say.

But I easily see SWtOR becoming something I'll leave installed on my computer to level up an alt every now and then and see if there's any interesting people playing.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by gobla

Can't say I trust Smedley to make a good game for it's own sake. But I definitely do trust him to look at EvE Online's subscriber base and say "Damn... I want me some of that pie."

That's... not a very big pie.

It's more than 400.000 subscribers.

It's definitely in the top 10 of MMOs and probably even in the top 5.

Beyond that EVE is about the only subscription-based MMO that's actually growing. Can't say that about many others.

I think he's taking notes from one of the few subscription MMOs in the industry that's currently and has been growing.

Which, it seems, he even plays himself.

http://themittani.com/features/mittani-interviews-soe-ceo-john-smedley

Can't say I trust Smedley to make a good game for it's own sake. But I definitely do trust him to look at EvE Online's subscriber base and say "Damn... I want me some of that pie."

Even if it's niche there's still plenty of EvE Online players and with it being far from unusual to have two accounts, or even more, it shows a lot of willingness to spend money on their sandbox. Money SOE no doubt would rather see go to them than anyone else.

Originally posted by Aviggin

Baresark?

Bare Sark?

BEAR SHARK!

Also, apparently in their version of English, Stomp means spread out your arms so a flash of light can knock people back.

He's clearly stomping the sky. With his fists. Causing the sky to fall. And knock people back.

It's very common bearshark behaviour.

Looks good. I might actually start keeping an eye on this.

More than the role though I like the interface, it's been a while since I last looked at Darkfall but back then it was a mess. It looks sleek now.

Originally posted by ariasaitcho

Originally posted by gobla

Originally posted by nsignific

Originally posted by gobla

Whilst the OP's conclusion may be valid, there's indeed absolutely nothing wrong with older games like WoW. His reasoning is simply false, just because something old works does not mean that any attempts at improvement or innovation are futile.

So you feel it makes sense to knock people who ride bicycles, just because they could be riding motorcycles?

 

Because that's the analogy; not that new things aren't good or even great, but the idea that whoever sticks with the old is misguided somehow.

 

Whoever sticks with the old merely because it's old, as your analogy indicates, is indeed misguided.

Age is utterly irrelevant and mentioning age as either a pro (as you seem to do) or a con (as those you accuse are doing) just shows a lack of understanding.

Some of the newer MMOs aren't bad because they're new. They're bad because of horrible gameplay, bugs, lack of content etc.

Some of the older MMOs aren't good because they're old. They're good because of great gameplay, stability, plentiful content etc.

If you want to ride a bicycle then go ride a freaking bicycle. Don't start preaching on how old it is and how it's worked for ages and how new things don't match up to it's design.

If you want to play WoW then go play freaking WoW. Don't start preaching on how old it is and how it's worked for ages and how new things don't match up to it's design.

hmm, so someone like me who uses a straight razor, boar bristle brush, and soap to shave because i enjoy the experience; is misguided. i guess using my fountian pen that i think is a joy to write with also make me misguided.

 

it's not that i don't like and use new things; it's that sometimes old things are, to me at least, better. if i still had my old schwinn bike with one speed, springer front forks, tube tires, banana seat, sissy bar, and the brakes that no longer work (lol), you're damn right i'd still ride it! but i got a 10 speed when my parents found out about the brakes, the ten speed was fun too. but the gear shifter never really worked right, though i could stop when i needed to. XD

 

but i don't live in the dark ages, i upgrade my computer every couple of years. i've got a hd tv, high speed internet, a cell phone, a dvr, etc.

 

i guess my point is: to each their own. if you like something different from me, great. as long as i can still do the things i like.

You didn't read my post did you?

Using a straight razor, boar bristle brush and soap to shave because it's old is misguided.

Using a straight razor, boar bristle brush and soap to shave because you enjoy the experience is perfectly fine.