All Posts by Orthedos

Originally posted by glord

When I finally find an MMO and stick with it, I want to actually STICK with it.  The only thing is, will other people do the same? I don't want to spend 7 years developing a character and the character's personality, just to find that the community gets bored of the game and leaves. Is an MMORPG that will last a lifetime possible?

Edit: I'm also hoping that tabletop RPing doesn't die out.

Back to the issue of a game.  Games are for fun during on and off odd hours.  Its not all of my life.  Game time spent are happy moments, moments of fun.  I do not need to keep playing it forever.  The moment I found something better to do I log off.  The moment I find a better game I push the cancel subscription button.  What will happen to my level 50 champion in LOTRo or my level 70 fury (unsubscribed) in EQ2?  Why bother?  If i want to play I go back to play, if I do not I move on.  I can still play if the community feels bored, so long as I am not bored.  Even if every friend of mine are busy in LOTRo, I decided to leave for personal reasons.

So relax my friend, just play the game if you do enjoy it, or find a new one if you do not.  Don't worry about your alt 7 years down the road, spend more time worrying about your friends and families 7 years down the road.

Understood that the beta client may not yet be fully optimised blah blah blah,

Still I want to know the OP's situation.  What is the config of the machine of yours that runs AoC smoothly.  And how smoothly.  Which display card, how much RAM, XP or Vista ...

Can you elaborate a bit please.  i am building my new rig for AoC, I am figuring out what CPU and what display card.  I am settling for XP and so its 2G or 4G (which only means 3G under XP).

Originally posted by raysiebeef

explain why then??  is it because i dont like the game and gave my opinion?

Well first I do not like the harsh reply given to you by some gamers here.

On the other hand, you have given an opinion, but not a reasoned one.  Yes I know you say you left the closed beta and reinstalled WoW.  BUT I do not know why.

1. Maybe AoC is a great game but you PC is so old that it can only play WoW.

2. Maybe AoC is a different kind of game and you are more used to WoW style.

3. Maybe AoC is in beta with bugs and you do not know that you are there to debug, so you chickened out and go back to WoW.

4. Maybe AoC is in beta and you want to raid for purples.  So you go back to WoW.

5. Maybe AoC requires some thinking and you are too tired after work, so you go back to WoW

6. Maybe ...

There are million maybes that are consistent with your stated fact, that you tried AoC beta and go back to WoW.  How are we supposed to judge your statement.  Does it mean AoC is good or bad.

You are wrong by saying "enough said".  No you have not explained enough, you have not explained anything.  You did not even tell us whether you like AoC beta or not in your first opinion.  In your quote above, you said you do not like the game without mentioning that it is in beta, so I wonder, do you have issues with the beta or the game?

Oh well I am trying to make too much sense out of your few words, as if I am trying to put words into your mouth.  I really do not know what you are trying to tell us, if any.

Originally posted by Arcken

 

Originally posted by Orthedos

 

Originally posted by Arcken

What is with the messed up attitude that people have about free trials? Has our universe turned upside down? Do the words "The customer is always right." mean nothing?

We are the customers, we are responsible for their paychecks. They want money to send the kids to college, then they better damn well cater to their customers wants and needs. What makes MMOs special to the point that they can act like its our "priveledge" to play their game. Thats blatent and utter bullshit. You want want us to buy your game, give us the respect we deserve as customers.

I dont buy a console game anymore without playing the downloadable demo on my 360. Imagine that, companies giving you a free sample of their product before you buy it. Its what the customer wants, and since the customer is putting food on their tables, we should demand some rightfully deserved respect.

No company should be able to survive in these our modern times if they cant please their customer base. Everyone who wants new customers does something to incite interest. Free trials of sausage at the grocery store, a free month of Vonage, coupons for the latest sandwich at burger king, its what businesses to do promote a product.

Again, why would tried and true business practices not apply to MMOs?

First consumers is NEVER always right.  If you do not want to buy, move on.  If the business is going strong, they might not even have enough to serve everyone.  Try oil, if Bush has an attitude to Saudi?  Move on, there are long lines waiting to buy.

 

A consumer can insist on a free trial prior to buying.  A supplier can insist on no free trial.  Its called free and voluntary trade.  Fine, no deal.  Lets see who gives up first?  AND by the way, you are not the big god of mercy when you spend $50 for a game.  You are voluntarily entering a contract, soliciting a services with terms and prices agreed upon by both.  Next time you go visit a doctor, show him your kind of attitude:

"Damn you stupid doctor, do you know my consultation fees pays for your kids and housing mortgage?  So you better make me happy or I leave you starving on the streets"

Talking about messed up attitude.

While I feel like you are in error trying to use a necessary service such as a doctor, and comparing to choosing entertainment, I will make a counter point.

 

When my wife and I went about trying to decide what pediatrician we wanted to send our kids to, we made several appointments with doctors to meet them before hand, to decide how we liked them.

After talking to about 5 doctors we settled on the one we liked the best. And that my friend is the right of every consumer out there. Its up to the doctor how he runs his business, agreed, however a personable doctor who is good at his job, will most likely have more patients than those less so. Thats my point, do what it takes to be better, and your business will be better. Tell people, "Like it or leave" and you are bound to have people leaving by the droves

 

Customers have the right to choose.  My previous storyline assumes only 1 supplier, so the customer choice is withholding or buying.  You expanded the story to multiple suppliers.  That adds competition to the supply side, if we also introduce multiple consumers we add in full fledge competition.

Assume a product with limited supply.  Each customers are trying to bid for the quantity he wanted.  He can shop among different suppliers, so will the next customer.  Each of the customer will bid against each other.  If you think that the suppliers are unfair you can wait till they offer better terms (say free trial here).  Unfortunately other customers are also competing, and if enough of them are willing to shore up the cash, the suppliers will serve them first and you will have to wait and hope that eventually there is leftover in supply and the supplier will look at you and think about your wishes: free trial.  If he think he has enough business, he will leave you aside for now.  That was my scenario about, you can wait, or you pay now.

Your story about doctors hinges upon the fact that doctors generally have excess capacity, meaning few of them are fully booked.  So you have the option of comparing and deciding on whom to patronise.  Still you have to pay the fees they wanted.  You cannot demand something they do not voluntarily give, as in the free trial you demand.  Each doctor offers his terms (fees), you pay for a first visit and then decide on a final purchase.  As in games, you buy the box, and if you like it subscribe.  Doctors will generally not alter the terms of their services just b/c you have second opinion.  They set a fees that applies to all customers.  Game producer set the terms applicable to all gamers.

Gamers are slightly different, in that the marginal DIRECT cost of adding more customers are trivial (just one more copy of server).  Still the true cost of adding less "willing" customers are bigger than that.  If they have to offer free trial to you, they will have to offer free trial to everyone.  How will the other clients think?  Will they start suspecting quality issues (only bad games offer free trials right from start)?  Will they worry about influx of "cheap" freeriders ruining the community?  Will they all stop pre-orders and wait for a free trial (most likely)?

Judging from the way AoC is coming, it is reasonable to expect that the game will launch aok (its my guess, you can have your own, and only time will tell who is right).  If Funcom expects a reasonable good sale at start (they know how many pre-orders already paid up), they might not want to risk free trials and adopt a wait and see, till the first free month expires.  If I were Funcom, I will never imagine the need to offer free trial during the first few months.  Or, well I should say, I hope it never comes to that.

Originally posted by slask777

This shouldn't even be a discussion. The customer is always right is based on the fact that if he/she isnt pleased he/she will take their money elsewhere. Businesses need customers to survive, not the other way around, and that is especially true for the entertainment business. This should be common knowledge, but it seems it aint. Got a few choice words for those kinda people, but I will probably be banned if I voice em here

Having to provide a free trial entails cost, those customers on the fence and thinking about buying will definitely not buy and try first.  That entails cost.  The business has to estimate the potential revenue available from the free trial gamers.  If they do not believe in these free-riders, then they should not offer the trial.

As a business, you and your kind of attitude will make you unwelcome in my client list.  You can take your money elsewhere, and I can save a lot of trouble trying to keep you in my business coverage.  Business need clients to survive, true, but not every client.  If I have enough nice reasonable clients to build up a warm mature gamer community, I would like to weed out the free riders to keep the game community nice and comfit.

You are also wrong about "not the other way round".  If you are famous as an obnoxious unhygenic and unclean stinky drunkard, I am pretty sure all the major restaurants will keep you out.  You will need to improve your looks and style or simply have to eat take-aways.

Your common knowledge is totally wrong.  There are many updated sources on marketing, go take a look, you will find that the common wisdom is: keeping EVERY OBNOXIOUS UNREASONABLE and UNPROFITABLE clients happy is not the way to go.

Why the endless hate for SoE?  I miss my SWG, maybe forever, as I do not expect to live long enough to see another game so original.  So what?  I hate SoE and automatically skip all games remotely associated with SoE?  Who am I kidding?  I am exacting a punishment on SoE or on myself?

I would rather judge each game individually and look for titles I think I will like.  I will not buy a game b/c its made by Bliz, nor will I skip a game b/c its made by SoE.

Originally posted by Lydon

 

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Originally posted by Orthedos
Oh come on, since when consumers own suppliers, since when consumers dictate what terms the suppliers must offer.

---

 

Oh goodness...since like forever. It's called supply and demand. The supplier needs to do whatever they can to increase the demand for their product. That means them asking "how high?" when we tell them to jump.

The elementary theory of trade does not talk in those terms.  The supplier only set the product and price, and leave it to the consumer to pick.  The consumer will be faced with options, price and product (say quality or kind).  Millions of consumers competing for services, millions of suppliers competing against each other to sell their product.  Suppliers do not manipulate the demand curve.

As for the balance of power between consumers and suppliers, there is a measure called elasticity that is partially relevant here.  Basically, it boils down to balance of power.  If the consumers have better balance of power, say the housing market in US now, then prices will drop, sellers have to lower price or give up selling.  Likewise, when the supply is low, and consumers rush to buy it, then we see long lines of vehicles outside gas stations during the first oil embargo.

Customers do not always holding the upper hand.  Don't falling into the illusion that your $50 is a big deal.  Try hit a very popular restaurant that is always fully booked and show them your $50 bill.  You will have to humble yourself and wait outside the door.

AMD Duel core and ATI 19050 here, it works smoothly.

I am building a new rig, wonder if its worth going quad core?  Anyone knows?

The rest of the new rig will be normal, 8800 (512 RAM) 4GB/2GB RAM. Nothing biggie.

Originally posted by Arcken

What is with the messed up attitude that people have about free trials? Has our universe turned upside down? Do the words "The customer is always right." mean nothing?

We are the customers, we are responsible for their paychecks. They want money to send the kids to college, then they better damn well cater to their customers wants and needs. What makes MMOs special to the point that they can act like its our "priveledge" to play their game. Thats blatent and utter bullshit. You want want us to buy your game, give us the respect we deserve as customers.

I dont buy a console game anymore without playing the downloadable demo on my 360. Imagine that, companies giving you a free sample of their product before you buy it. Its what the customer wants, and since the customer is putting food on their tables, we should demand some rightfully deserved respect.

No company should be able to survive in these our modern times if they cant please their customer base. Everyone who wants new customers does something to incite interest. Free trials of sausage at the grocery store, a free month of Vonage, coupons for the latest sandwich at burger king, its what businesses to do promote a product.

Again, why would tried and true business practices not apply to MMOs?

A consumer can insist on a free trial prior to buying.  A supplier can insist on no free trial.  Its called free and voluntary trade.  Fine, no deal.  Lets see who gives up first?  AND by the way, you are not the big god of mercy when you spend $50 for a game.  You are voluntarily entering a contract, soliciting a services with terms and prices agreed upon by both.  Next time you go visit a doctor, show him your kind of attitude:

"Damn you stupid doctor, do you know my consultation fees pays for your kids and housing mortgage?  So you better make me happy or I leave you starving on the streets"

Talking about messed up attitude.

Originally posted by airhead

 

 

Originally posted by Orthedos

This thread has degenerated into a bugger thread demanding free trials from game developers.  Since when game developers owe us anything.  They make a product they try to sell, they are not begging for money.  Some of you sound like paying alms to the developers, and demand this and that before parting with $50.  Come on, the developer invested $10million+ and you only shore up $50.  What a big fuss you are making out of that $50.

If you are patient enough, if you are willing to wait while people play then good for you.  Wait and you will eventually see lower prices for boxes (WoW is $20 now?) and free trials flying around.  If you choose to wait then you will have to shut up and stop feeling bitter about people enjoying the game while you wait.  What is this theory about consumers paying too generous to sustain bad developers?  Nonsense, the consumers who pay are willing to give it a try.  Some loved it, some feel ... meh .  Same for movies same for dinner in a newly opened restaurant.  The process of trying it out is as much fun for many people.  Stop judging how people spend their money.  Stop feeling bitter if people are spending on something you cannot afford to, or do not want to.

If you want to play it now, pay.  If you want to wait for a free trial, by all means.  Non of the self righteous attitude is justified.  None of us as players has ever contributed to the gamer industry.  The $50 and monthly are payments to subscribe for a services, and the developers does not owe it to us.  IF we want services we need to pay.  If we do not like the terms offered move on, and stop bickering.  Games are not life or death matters, you do not die if you skip a game.

Why are you being so defensive?  If someone on a consumer driven product review website (like this one is... for MMO games) demands from a producer a trial before buying, how is that an accusation against people who pay for the game based on info, word of mouth, or even artwork on the box? It's not. It's just a statement that they want to try a mmo product before buying it.... there is no bickering going on; just a few people sharing pros and cons about trials in regard to an MMO product.

 

 

But to the point, being myself a producer and seller of business software (not games), if enough customers tell me I have to bend over and kiss my own ass before they will buy my product, I would probably do it... revenue and profit are the only things that matter in business.

But to this issue, considering the increased competition and the desire to grow the market and capture new potential players that have never played an MMO before, I think a trial / open-beta would have been a good idea. There's been a number of recent flops in the industry, and a good degree of skepticism at this point just proves to me that many mmo-gamers really are sane.

 

 

Its a free trade we are talking about: when the supplier feels competition he might opt to provide a free trial, or something else as enticement.  Skeptism is always good, consumers are to look after his own interests.  But what do we see is the extreme here: Going to the extremes of conspiracy theory to bug a free trial is lame.  How about this: the whiner must be totally broke and unable to pay for any games, so he is trying to cheat a trial code and play for free while it lasts, this whiner is never going to pay, he is just a parasite?  Equally groundless speculation, right?

For some games facing the fate of extinction, F2P might be the last option.  For games getting old, free trial might be a way to rejunvate the game.  But for a game like AoC, going strong so far, is a free trial before launch really necessary, really the best marketing approach?  We can have another conspiracy theory: "Look AoC must be totally crap.  Why would they make the game free right from start?"

Remember the LOTRo boards?  When LOTRo offer a free 7 day trial 3 months into launch, every whiner here says exactly the same thing: a proof that LOTRo is dying.

If we listen to every whiner on earth, there is no time left around the clock, b/c they simply won't stop no matter what the developers do.

Originally posted by eHero

 

 

Originally posted by MrTumN3s

Why should we care to listen to the people saying its awesome if we shouldn't care about the people saying it isn't. There will always be people who like a game and those whom don't. Always be weary of games you buy, especially mmorpgs. In my advice, i say take the open beta thats coming up and see if you like it.

 

Because if you listen to people who say its awesome, then it's more likely you'll buy it.  If you enjoy it, then no harm done.  If you don't, then that's can be at $100 you're out if you bought the collector's edition.

If you listen to the naysayers, then all you're out is a little time.  And if the game's good and lasts awhile, that won't even matter.  And if you want to buy the CE, you'll be able to, because there's always many hanging around after launch.  I haven't seen them sell out on preorders yet.

But essentially, your advice is the same as mine.  Except if I like the beta, I usually spend the five bucks to pick up the preorder so I can play the game in the headstart period at release.  I've bought a lot of those preorder boxes, and not bought the full game.

At the end of the day, its my money, my decision, as to whose view I trust more, which side of the argument looks more convincing and my gut feeling about $50 or the boxset.  Its my decision, my fault or my glory.  Views are for references, I am not going to blame anyone for "luring" me to buying or not buying.

As for your argument about saving $100 its totally nonsense.  Its $XXX vs some measure of consumption satisfaction.  If you believe in comsumption impatience theory, then deferring consumption is already a form of deprivation.  The one willing to go ahead and buy first got the CHANCE to enjoy it first, if the enjoyment turns up more than worth the payment.  If you defer payment on a very good product, you end up paying the same, but enjoying it much later.

If people truly listen to the naysayers they will have to bug someone for a buddy key, and try to get into the game in time.  For some people, they would rather part with $50 than go thru all the hassles.  They might want to try it out just for the heck of it.  Fooling around the town, trying out snacks at different street vendors, are in itself as much fun as eating the best steak in a restaurant you know so well.  Sometimes its just the novelty that gets my money.

If the OP or the other lovers (fanboys whatever) says he is enjoying the game, he is enjoying the game now.  That is good enough.  Yes, he has only gone thru level 1 to 5, so what?  He loved it now, he derives pleasure so far, maybe he is willing to pay for it.  AND keep paying till the pleasure lasts.  That is all about a game.

Who knows what will happen 20 years down the road, who know what will happen in mid game or end game, things can change.  All that matter now is now, as far as a game goes.  We subscribe to play for this month, if we love it enough, we might want to subscribe lifetime if that offer exists, and bet that we will come back time and again to enjoy.  IF we are paying monthly, we need not worry about months down the road, cos we do not know.

What is this theory about ditching or bashing a person's love because he only knows about a game for 2 days?  Do you bash a hushand who love a wife but only know her for a month?

Of course, you do not need to share the enthusiasm.  You can hate the game as much as he love it.  So what?  He plays you don't.  Period.  Why bash him?  What right do you have in laughing him off?

During beta you have to download a bunch of the debugger files, and a lot of anxilliary stuffs to help track down bugs or record the client as your PC plays it out.  The game was not yet optimised.

Upon launch, there is a chance that file size will come down a bit.

This thread has degenerated into a bugger thread demanding free trials from game developers.  Since when game developers owe us anything.  They make a product they try to sell, they are not begging for money.  Some of you sound like paying alms to the developers, and demand this and that before parting with $50.  Come on, the developer invested $10million+ and you only shore up $50.  What a big fuss you are making out of that $50.

If you are patient enough, if you are willing to wait while people play then good for you.  Wait and you will eventually see lower prices for boxes (WoW is $20 now?) and free trials flying around.  If you choose to wait then you will have to shut up and stop feeling bitter about people enjoying the game while you wait.  What is this theory about consumers paying too generous to sustain bad developers?  Nonsense, the consumers who pay are willing to give it a try.  Some loved it, some feel ... meh .  Same for movies same for dinner in a newly opened restaurant.  The process of trying it out is as much fun for many people.  Stop judging how people spend their money.  Stop feeling bitter if people are spending on something you cannot afford to, or do not want to.

If you want to play it now, pay.  If you want to wait for a free trial, by all means.  Non of the self righteous attitude is justified.  None of us as players has ever contributed to the gamer industry.  The $50 and monthly are payments to subscribe for a services, and the developers does not owe it to us.  IF we want services we need to pay.  If we do not like the terms offered move on, and stop bickering.  Games are not life or death matters, you do not die if you skip a game.

If you do not like Funcom what do you expect from a trial?  You should not be the least disturbed about Funcom not offering free trials during launch.

Open betas are NOT trials.  Betas are process whereby Funcom makes a final attempt at improving the game before going final.  If you want to play the trial, at least wait for final release and hope that you have friends giving you buddy keys.

Funcom has not announced any free trials yet, so do not hope for free trial keys falling from the sky any time.  That is the decision from Funcom.  They have all the rights to decide on how to market their products, in as much as customers have all the rights to wait.

Originally posted by Nightbringe1

 

Originally pos