nooooo.......this cannot be??!!!!

better EU daytime than ours...rawr...just sayin

da trolls cometh on the forums during patch/maint down times......thats why the forums disabled

SWTOR will have decent pre order numbers. 800k pre order boxes isn't bad by any standard. In fact Bioware will cash in alone on pre order sales. I am not a big believer in numbers because stats can manipulated to serve any purpose. What will measure SWTOR's success is long term steady subs and most importantly content delivery (covering everything from expansions to basic bug fixes). The supply has to meet the demand and in the MMO business it's either feast or famine.

I have researched sale numbers for WoW Cataclysm and it was confirmed Cata had somewhere around 4.7 million copies sold the first month. That was just an expansion. Overall Blizzard says that around WOTLK came out 8.6 million boxes sold spanding from Vanilla wow to WOTLK x pack. If you think about it, that is just saying how many times WoW has passed the check out line. It doesn't really mean there are 8-10 million actual wow players.

Overall I think gamers are getting burned out in the MMO genre. We had some big name IP titles come out with very disappointing results.  

Originally posted by RavingRabbid

Originally posted by Camthylion

Companies will learn the hard way over and over I guess.  Crappy arse graphics/paper doll/lifeless looking beings and crappy PvE won't keep anyone around for long. WAR had fun PvP mini games, and that's about it... the battlegrounds were okay but nothing amazing.  I have thought from time to time to pick back up on my lvl 30 black guard and complete the game.  I then look at the graphics, the enviroment and the general sense of the game, and I lose interest fast.

 

The game was poorly designed and a lacking clone of WoW, the only thing it had going for it was half decent PvP. Today what?  30% of people buying MMOs wanna PvP hardcore...  If the game had put more effort into more armor, better models and better characte creation/develepment it mighta been a hot number by now.

Ding Ding Ding we have a winner...except the wow clone part.....

***Dances with hot hot Dark elf sorceress!***

WAR may not be the perfect game but I don't see what you are seeing here. WAR's graphics are pretty damn good. Have you paid attention to some of the detail in the weapons, armor and environments?? Not to mention the Orc models are probably the best looking ever.The game looks pretty good. Some of you need to upgrade your graphics card or something.

Originally posted by Proson

While asia gets an awesome Transformers MMO..

Now, i know we havent seen ANYTHING of this game yet, but its gonna be a browser game and thats a good enough reason for me too call it shit, and its being made by jagex? i dont know alot about those guys, all i know is they made Runescape so i dont have high hopes for this game at all. I guess i should wait and see first before i judge it too harshly. But i cant remember ever playing a Browser game that was any good (besides some small games, but an MMO? lol)

The other Transformers MMO looks so awesome, like War for Cybertron but on a much larger scale. Why cant we have that?!

Proson....I gotta admit.....I laughed so hard at the title of this thread. You are right....why do we get this??? 3 movies, new animated series and a all new toy series and we don't get a Transformers MMO. What's wrong with this picture? 

I wish a company would just heavily support the multiplayer aspect of The War for Cybertron or Dark of the moon. They are not too far off. Those are pretty decent games.

Originally posted by Ohaan

Originally posted by Ad-am

Cost doesn't weigh in on players. In fact with the "micro transactions" being adopted more and more on F2P model games It's no doubt players will spend well above the average sub price if it appeals. Yes, I agree the cost is an issue with investors and when it comes to other peoples money but who do you think supplies the demand for the cost? The players or community.

Without the community/players there is no return investment. I think it would be safe to say the players pretty much dictate how the return investment will be. WoW has been the dominating force in the mmo industry and often tossed out in comparison to other games because WoW has continously demonstrated that with its community, expansions and of course Blizz-Con every year. Just about anything in WoW's Ui is customizeable and there are no isolated instanced zones that divide the social aspect of the game play with the exception of BGs and Dungeons.  

As for the community itself yes everybody wants something different and its proven that whatever Dev is in charge pushes what they see fit. Those are mainly gameplay balance issues. This is more of a discussion of the social interaction which I think makes or breaks any MMO. If you take the social aspect out of any mmo game it will sink...and that's exactly what most mmos are doing....sinking.  

Yes and players have consistently demonstrated that they would rather play MMOs with extensive solo options. Which begs the question as to why bother release RPGs as MMOs in the first place if fewer people actually appreciate the potential depth. Sure most titles have the option to socialize but with the core game play objectives being perpetual item and level grinding, why waste time trying to build in game relationships when you can just as easily solo or use a dungeon finder for insta-group? 

... And consequently no, taking the social aspect out of MMO's will not make them sink - it is what has made games like WoW so accessible and thus successful. Of course you could argue that it is no longer a true MMO if the majority of players choose not to socialize but that would be best saved for a separate discussion.

I think the fair question to ask is why even play a "Massively Multiplayer Online" game if you want to run and gun solo and not interact or socialize to the extent of being useful in the game?? The grinding levels is one step out of the whole set of stairs. You meet people in the process, perhaps socialize to form a guild and most of all contribute some sort of positive way by a crafting profession or class that is needed to achieve whatever the goal is. The "why waste time trying to build in game relationships when you can just easily solo or use a dungeon finder for insta-groups" pretty much kill any social aspect a MMO has to offer.

I disagree with the second comment. If you take out or kill the social aspect of the game it will sink, no doubt. WoW has continued its long term success because the game is indeed social friendly. In game and out. Not to mention, WoW has catered to solo players, pvpers and even rpers. Say what you want about the title but the game is well developed and supported by Blizzard. EQ is about the only other title that comes to mind that has been well supported with expansions but they have been less than stellar content delivery wise.

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by Ad-am

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by Swollen_Beef

It would be nice to see a studio come out and say, look, We dont need billions in profits each week, instead we are looking at a 100,000-500,000 subscription goal and will be just happy wil our couple of millions in quarterly profits. So we are making the game that We and you want. Not the game that everyone wants. (a current example of such an attitude would be Pitch Black Games)

 

One of the main problems with that, is that these games cost millions to create. Thats usually other peoples money.  Those investors demand the best ROI they can get their hands on, and thats why we see the focus that we do.  Until middleware brings the cost of creating these games down a LOT, its going to be driven by business considerations first, and everything else second. 

The cost is not really the issue. What's so hard about a game company working together with its community to develop gameplay and bring the social aspect into play? The very basic interface features are so unfriendly in most mmos.

 

Cost is almost ALWAYS an issue when it comes to other peoples money.  "Working with the community" is a literal mine field. What usually happens is that a vocal minority gets pandered to (as in Ghostcrawlers buddies in WoW high end raiding), and that diverts time/resources from other aspects of the game.  Not to mention those who aren't the focus, tend to go off on rants and raves.  Looking at the history of such attempts, it usually turns out to be more PR flack, than anything else. 

In the vast majority of cases, the "community" itself doesn't really know what it wants. Certain *individuals* within it, may have some strongly held ideas, but that doesn't mean that such are practical, given limited time/talent and experience. 

Keep in mind that the ONLY thing that business types and investors care about is Return On Investment.  They look at the billions that WoW has made over the years, and throw truck loads of money at people who intone the mystic phrase; "Its just like World of Warcraft!..." Its foolish in the extreme, but thats reality. 

"Social interaction" given the general gaming populations current demographics is not something the overwhelming majority of players seem to be focused on.  I know I want as little to do with about 98% of the general population of most games these days, as humanly possible, and I'm far from alone in that. 

Cost doesn't weigh in on players. In fact with the "micro transactions" being adopted more and more on F2P model games It's no doubt players will spend well above the average sub price if it appeals. Yes, I agree the cost is an issue with investors and when it comes to other peoples money but who do you think supplies the demand for the cost? The players or community.

Without the community/players there is no return investment. I think it would be safe to say the players pretty much dictate how the return investment will be. WoW has been the dominating force in the mmo industry and often tossed out in comparison to other games because WoW has continously demonstrated that with its community, expansions and of course Blizz-Con every year. Just about anything in WoW's Ui is customizeable and there are no isolated instanced zones that divide the social aspect of the game play with the exception of BGs and Dungeons.  

As for the community itself yes everybody wants something different and its proven that whatever Dev is in charge pushes what they see fit. Those are mainly gameplay balance issues. This is more of a discussion of the social interaction which I think makes or breaks any MMO. If you take the social aspect out of any mmo game it will sink...and that's exactly what most mmos are doing....sinking.  

Originally posted by popinjay

 

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Originally posted by Ad-am

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Originally posted by Wraithone

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Originally posted by Swollen_Beef
It would be nice to see a studio come out and say, look, We dont need billions in profits each week, instead we are looking at a 100,000-500,000 subscription goal and will be just happy wil our couple of millions in quarterly profits. So we are making the game that We and you want. Not the game that everyone wants. (a current example of such an attitude would be Pitch Black Games)

---

 
One of the main problems with that, is that these games cost millions to create. Thats usually other peoples money.  Those investors demand the best ROI they can get their hands on, and thats why we see the focus that we do.  Until middleware brings the cost of creating these games down a LOT, its going to be driven by business considerations first, and everything else second. 

---

The cost is not really the issue. What's so hard about a game company working together with its community to develop gameplay and bring the social aspect into play? The very basic interface features are so unfriendly in most mmos.

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The problem is at the time these companies are making these games, there is no "community" yet, so how can they work together with something that normally barely exists?

 

 

Rift didn't have a community at all... no one heard of Trion. Larger companies have focus groups made up of the "elite" players, who are usually the only ones with not enough life to volunteer for these things months or years in advance.

 

 

The typical intended market for a lot of mmos (casual, non-hardcores) don't really want to get involved in all of what you're talking about. They usually are like "Call me when dinner is ready and I'll come eat".

 

 

So games usually get designed by the company's devs (usually old school gamers) and the game's elite fans (hardcore poopsockers). Then when they release.. crash.

 

Average players don't care about things like "unfriendly UIs" or complex skill trees and genre schemes that revolutionize; they just want fun and will adapt to everything else that goes with it that might be a headache for others.

There is always a community that follows a game pre and post development. Every MMO had or has a web site at one time or another or there could be forums like this one where players congregate to hype a upcoming title. It all starts with the alpha and beta testers. Where most companies go wrong is when they ignore their alpha and beta testers. It's like listening to the guys sitting in their air conditioned cubicle making decisions they hope catches on and ignoring the guys  who are out there in the field doing the hands on stuff.

Gaming companies have to stop catering to casual non-hardcore gamers. It's ruining the mmo gaming scene. Grant it the door is always open for the casual players who like to come for dinner and leave but they really need to stop turning established titles upside down for them. SWG is the poster boy for such decisions. Let the casual gamer play the consoles or single player PC games. Leave the MMOs to those who want the social aspect plus the in depth gaming experience.

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by Swollen_Beef

It would be nice to see a studio come out and say, look, We dont need billions in profits each week, instead we are looking at a 100,000-500,000 subscription goal and will be just happy wil our couple of millions in quarterly profits. So we are making the game that We and you want. Not the game that everyone wants. (a current example of such an attitude would be Pitch Black Games)

 

One of the main problems with that, is that these games cost millions to create. Thats usually other peoples money.  Those investors demand the best ROI they can get their hands on, and thats why we see the focus that we do.  Until middleware brings the cost of creating these games down a LOT, its going to be driven by business considerations first, and everything else second. 

The cost is not really the issue. What's so hard about a game company working together with its community to develop gameplay and bring the social aspect into play? The very basic interface features are so unfriendly in most mmos.

Yes, MMO's have been losing the social aspect for the last few years.

You can log into any given mmo and a lot of them are zoned, instanced, broken chat, read about political discussions, racial epitaphs, legalize pot discussions, poor guild management options and most of all RPers are bashed into oblivion.

Wait is this a stand alone new everquest game or something they are trying to incorporate into the existing title. Either way EQ is the only thing keeping SOE floating.

I am currently subbed to WAR at the moment. I have made my usual rounds over the past summer re-visiting different mmos. I am just killing time before SWTOR is released. WAR is now down to 2 North American Servers and 3 (I believe) European servers. There is still quite a bit of action going in WAR. I found T1 and T4 to be the busiest obviously because of the free trials and the end gamers. T2 and T3 exist but only in the form of Keep battles or PVE with a small group. The server mergers did help with population but there are times when no scenarios pop. There is still some life left.

Originally posted by tepthtanis

You make it sound like you were never affected by being hacked by a another person... Is that your legacy?

 Death is the mother of beauty....

Originally posted by Deewe

Originally posted by Bama1267

Originally posted by Deewe

There's something everyone is missing in the pre-order:

• We are clueless of when the game will be available
• We don't even know the payment method(s) nor the monthly subsciption fees
• We don't know if there will be microtransactions
• We don't know how long will be the headstart

 

Usually when you pre-order a MMO you at least know when it will launch, how much it will cost you.

 

 

Most of us know just enough ....

1) November roughly ... good enough for me

2) 15 bucks more than likely give or take a buck

3) More than likely, vanity stuff

4) 3-6 days is a good bet again

 

Enough info for me to make a decision on a game I'm deifnitely getting. If that wasnt good for you or others, no need to pre order.

 Assumptions, only.

 It's being released Jan 3 2012...

Originally posted by tepthtanis

Originally posted by Ad-am

To the OP.......

 

meanwhile millions of subscribers still play. WoW has maintained its life. The comparisons you made reminded me of the "elder jedi" vs the "NGE jedi" (I had to grind, I had to work for it, etc etc.). 

 

The millions of subscribers are teens or pre teens...not the original subscribers that were in their 20's or 30's...or beyond.

 Source? I can speak as a casual wow player I am well beyond my teens.

This buy out worries me. I think it's proof Atari is throwing in the towel especially STO. It might mean a certain doom for STO. Basically when games go F2P they are on life support

I have said it in beta, I will say it here...again. The one server instanced zones = fail. That's why there are so many loading screens. The game should have been put up with servers and where everyone can see along with interact with each other. I love the game but I wanted to try it again now the "new ground combat" is out. After reading these comments, I am not sure I want to try the game out again. I really didn't like the loading screens either.

To the OP.......

meanwhile millions of subscribers still play. WoW has maintained its life. The comparisons you made reminded me of the "elder jedi" vs the "NGE jedi" (I had to grind, I had to work for it, etc etc.). 

The announcement will be the release date. The release date is Jan 3 2011.