All Posts by Gishgeron

Originally posted by Douhk

To Melwe: Good find! That's kind of entertaining, actually... I agree with the post above mine. Seems like he wants to stir up the pot more than anything, even though neither reviews are very convincing to an educated player.

He's a troll obviously, but an effective one. Trolls on these forums, take notes

  That statement proves itself untrue :P

  If its obvious, he isn't a good troll after all.  The best trolls go largely unnoticed as such.  But you are definitely right, he IS a troll.  Or someone so absolutely devoid of brain matter that he can not be trusted to think for himself long enough to deserve writing space on ANY site. 

  His second "blog" is so retarded I can't even THINK now.  Using review sites as a way to observe the playerbase?  Hell, most players don't vote on any of those things whether they hate it or not.   Most "voting" reviews are plagued by viral marketing, and most regular reviews are plagued by plain ole' greasing the gears.  You can't just "decide" AoC must not have ANY of the "issues" he swore by a single blog before it simply because a review score of the game is high...that makes no sense.  He didn't play the game, he never had an insider (because, then, he CERTAINLY wouldn't be changing his tone so fast) and he has no clue what he is talking about.

  One thing is for sure....I'm glad you AoC fans have him on YOUR side now.   He's more damage than he's worth.

Originally posted by ThaneB

 

Quit acting like I'm a fanboy. I don't even play AoC anymore.I'm not trying to call AoC a great game. I am saying that I'm tired of people telling lies, like how AoC is a broken game.  Funcom lied and I didn't deny that( since you don't like it when people put words in your mouth don't put words into other peoples' mouths). I am not defending the game itself . I'm trying to defend all games that aren't reviewed fairly.

By the way I like how you completely degrade AoC players. Yep you're right all I need is a game with nice graphics and some boobies.

Your post is a perfect example of a flame post. First you acted like you are being respectful then you attacked people on a personal level.

 

  A:  I never reviewed anything, or even came close to stating I had.  But, at this point we can write that matter off as simple misunderstanding since that it was you and I both have decided it was.  No harm, no foul.

B:  I did not actually degrade AoC players.  Technically, I just degraded the entire MMO playerbase.  Like, all of us.  I'm not even close to being sorry for it either...what I said was spot on.  Every one of us have been happily turning this particular market into a suits wet dream.  Imagine a place where you can do practically ANYTHING to your consumer and STILL get money from it!  Some, granted, do far worse than others in this regard (SOE comes to mind, but they're far from the only ones on that list) but in the end most (if not all) have been doing it this whole time.  I even went so far as to include MYSELF in the rant as one of those whom have contributed to this issue.  I hardly think I'm being biased...or even unfair.

C:  Even disregarding everything I said in A and B...if someone is so attached to their game that they would allow someone faceless person to affect them personally over the internet, its probably best they go ahead and endure this and learn how to deal with it emotionally.  I would not feel "attacked" or "hurt" if someone went on a tirade over "players-of-whatever-game-I-play".  I might, perhaps, disagree with them...but its best to never take anything over the net to personally.  Its impossible to really judge the depth of whats being said when you have no facial expressions of body language to gauge the matter with.  You just take it at face value because thats all you get.

  I will concede that I thought you may have been an "fanboy" (or fanboi if you really like to get under someones skin...for some reason seeing an "i" in the wrong place just sets flares off.  I know it does me when I see "kthxbai"...and I'm still not sure why.).  My first contact with you was in a retaliation against me (which, we now have seen to be miscommunication....hell, it happens to the best of us) in defense of the game.  You didn't even bother to address anything I actually said, and began assaulting me based on things I DIDN'T say (hence the whole "words in my mouth" matter) so I felt reasonably comfortable assuming you to be a fan.  I would kind of finger a hater to avoid defending the game or company at all.  In the very least, I'd expect them to trash me on a point-to-point bases for stating things that aren't true.

  Since you aren't a fan, I apologize for directing my message toward you...as it doesn't apply in this sense.  I'm not among the group of "evil haters" here though (you can see some of their work in the thread about some blog with a graph that was up yesterday....pure and utter garbage that was full of lies that the author really expected us all to be stupid enough to believe).  When Avery (one of the more well spoken super fans here) informs me of changes that are made, I do not continue to post about the problems it fixed in an effort to remain factual and honest about what I say in regard to this game.  I don't like spewing lies, and think that its far more productive for both hater and fan alike to remain as close to fact as you can.

Originally posted by ThaneB

Originally posted by Gishgeron

 

  Interesting that you quoted me and then put words into my mouth.  I do not recall saying ANYONE (besides myself...and even then such a thing could only be inferred from my post, as I did not actually STATE such a thing) hated the game.  

  I've also never given a review of the game.  More so, I have not given a completely negative OPINION of the game either.  In fact, most times my "opinions" are focused on the company behind the game rather than the game itself, even.  If you'd like, I can classify my hate into two separate levels.

  A:  I hate Funcom (on principle) for ______ reasons.

  B:  I greatly dislike AoC for many design reasons.  I also dislike how they launched the game, and the quality therein.  But, and this is important, I actually defer THAT dislike back into column A as it pertains more to my hate of the company (for making such choices and failing on so many promises) than it does to my dislike of the game.

  The post you quoted was me being glad that someone finally attacked AoC from a design level (which is what I did initially, as the game was openly walking down a path which removes it from being anything LIKE the PvP experience they promised for years) instead just whining about release issues (which are important, and justified things to whine about). 

 

You called the game a "tread mill" mmo that is a review. You were calling the mmo crap. I haven't read any of your other posts how am I supposed to know that you don't just write completely negative reviews of AoC. The only evidence I have is the post you have in this thread. Do you expect me to read all your posts in this forum? What the heck man I've got a life.

  No, I actually do not expect you to.  I am quite fine with you only using what you read in THIS post to address me.  The problem here is that you "ad libbed" some parts.  You started to go into hyper "DEFEND MY BELOVED GAME" mode before it was even warranted.

  I called the game a treadmill because thats what it is.  The moment I read one of the leaders on the project stating that "raid gear should be the best" I felt what I felt.  I watched this situation unfold in other games, for the same reason.  I have no reason to assume this game will be different, and in fact have nothing but evidence from the devs themselves that it will be the same.  That's not a review, its an assumption.  An educated and rationalized assumption, but one none the less.  I take pride in what reviews I HAVE done (none for this game) and I would never sum up any game in just a few sentences.

  Also, there is a plenty LARGE market for "treadmill" MMO games.  Take a look around, there are 10 million players in one right now.  So calling one a treadmill isn't really the same as calling it crap.  It IS the same, however, as saying that this team really isn't "evolving" the genre liked they claimed.   If you want my 100% full opinion, they took a tired system used by 5000 other games and tried to sell it with pretty graphics.  They were so sure the IP and prettiness would sell their game that they sold it without even half the features they promised and without even coming close to properly bug testing their game.

  I hate Funcom because they just looked every last one of us in the face and said "We KNOW you're so stupid that you'll ignore everything wrong if we "promise to do better" and give you tits to look at".   They didn't even TRY.  Listening to them speak, and watching their actions, tells me that they are cocky and arrogant....and they have every right to be.  I'll even tell you WHY.  Because they were right.  I won't even bother wasting the page and a half it would take to list the major issues it launched with.  I won't bother ranting about how their design is setting them up to repeat well over half of WoW's mistakes (which they themselves actually fixed)/  I will say that Funcom was right, in that they COULD sell us that kind of quality and we'd LOVE it.

  What they did was sloppy, and now we have people like you crawling around to make excuses for them and defending them for every wrong action they took.  I wondered "why" for a few weeks...but then it hit me.  You guys DO love the game, and all it DID take was some pretty pictures and boobs to make you feel that connected to it.   You guys were so enamored by the "new" combat and gorgeous landscape that you completely ignore everything wrong. 

  Bah, I don't guess I blame you.  If you are having fun, then have fun.  I do hate knowing that the business model of "Give the babies a shiny toy to distract them while we make millions of a half finished product" is actually the BEST one out.   I hate it because I've endorsed it myself, with MMO purchases over the years.  We've been enabling them to make tons of money on half-arsed attempts, and its really sad because the other genres of gaming are moving ahead really well....and ours never will.

Originally posted by Hexxeity

The original question was not about one or two years from now -- it was about the initial drop-off after the first month.  It bothers me when people claim to be right and then "prove" it by changing the question.

  No joke.

  They still aren't "right" either....because there are only a handful of MMO's which really experienced a massive growth period.  Many either started big and taper down, and started down a tapered up.  None really ever leave the 75-150K range unless something magical happens.  Games like WoW, Lineage, Runescape, and maplestory are the only ones really rocking MASSIVE numbers.  Each one has VERY unique market situations which allow for it, and each had to grow into that skin from a strong starting point.

  MMO's do not just "grow" because the market says so.  Most generally trend down over the years, as new games come out.   Even if everything is right in the game, it doesn't mean they will obtain the 100% figure stated by the poster in question.  LoTR has had around the same number of players for the entire span of its life...and WoW actually grabbed WAYYY over the 100% this Wiccan thinks.  Entertainment markets cannot be so simply understood....there are too many things that play into it.

  Retention Rates, however, are easier to guess on.  Those are based on the immediate market climate, and the state of the game in question.  We also like to throw our bias in there too :P

EDIT:

  Another thing....there is a pretty good reason why so many MMO's DO have a trend upward around those specific years.  I just realized that around the 18 month mark, most MMO's begin either expansions or trial programs.  Its no wonder they see a short population rise, jesus.  Its NOT just something natural that happens.

Originally posted by ThaneB

Originally posted by Gishgeron

 

  To comment on this part.....

  Killing the lairs....sucked.  However, watching my avatar grow in the areas I specifically targeted once the lair was GONE.....awesome.   But, here is the thing.  The lairs?  They were quests.  Yeah, quests.  What exactly makes THAT experience so different from the rest of the MMO world's "Kill X boars" quests?  Its not like these other games are constantly offering tales of epic proportions here....in any given MMO, for each "Go do something AWESOME" quest you have 500 "Go do something really crappy for a few hours and then run across teh globe 5 times to 5 different people to gain less than a 10th of your level" quests.

  Quests do not actually make ANYTHING more fun.  At best, they trick really dumb people into thinking they aren't still just grinding mobs.  The rest of us still view it as "grinding mobs"....we just get an xp bonus for talking to someone before we went.

 

 

  Also, not to attack you or anything (I honestly just got a chuckle and wanted to share it)....but if you went to Tatooine (a desert planet) and expected to see anything BUT rocks and sand for miles...you perhaps expected the wrong thing.  I do agree that they used WAY large maps to be free for player housing.

 

It is different actually, because not all quests in other mmorpgs are the simple kill ? get ? quests. SWG on the other hand only has those types of quests. Other mmorpgs actually have some quests with storylines.  Don't get me wrong I used to love SWG, but it had problems. It wasn't perfect, like almost everyone claims.

Do I need to use a planet other than Tatooine as an example? Go back to any planet in SWG if you haven't quit SWG and search every planet. They are all barren. The only planet with vegetation is Naboo.

Our discussion is clearly becoming this isn't the SWG forums.

  Oh, I'm aware (and even said so in the post).  I didn't intend to roll into an actual SWG debate...I really just wanted to tear into the ideal that any game uses a quest system that is anything more than grind-redefined.  You can name any game you want, I'll gladly show you 10 "sucky" quests for each "awesome" one you provide me.

Originally posted by ThaneB

Originally posted by Gishgeron

 

  OMUGOSH!

  Someone else here has FINALLY gotten around to punching them in the gut for the same things I've been talking about when it all began!  I never thought the community would ever get past "God the Lag andBug!" long enough to actually realize its another treadmill game.  Hell, it has been so long since I started talking about it that I'VE even let it go to jump on them for more popular topics around here.

  You, sir, get a cookie.  I'm not even joking, you get a farkin cookie.  I'm not alone, anymore, and it makes me smile.

 

 People actually enjoy the game(  forums are deceiving my friend). Just because you don't enjoy a game dosen't mean everybody else hates it. That's like saying everybody  hates Halo just because you hate it.

 In my opinion completely positive or negative reviews of games are pathetic.

  Interesting that you quoted me and then put words into my mouth.  I do not recall saying ANYONE (besides myself...and even then such a thing could only be inferred from my post, as I did not actually STATE such a thing) hated the game.  

  I've also never given a review of the game.  More so, I have not given a completely negative OPINION of the game either.  In fact, most times my "opinions" are focused on the company behind the game rather than the game itself, even.  If you'd like, I can classify my hate into two separate levels.

  A:  I hate Funcom (on principle) for ______ reasons.

  B:  I greatly dislike AoC for many design reasons.  I also dislike how they launched the game, and the quality therein.  But, and this is important, I actually defer THAT dislike back into column A as it pertains more to my hate of the company (for making such choices and failing on so many promises) than it does to my dislike of the game.

  The post you quoted was me being glad that someone finally attacked AoC from a design level (which is what I did initially, as the game was openly walking down a path which removes it from being anything LIKE the PvP experience they promised for years) instead just whining about release issues (which are important, and justified things to whine about). 

  I agree, it looks plenty smooth to me already.  I see no need for a "higher res client" really.  People who find this painful to their eyes should probably just stick to AoC, since its going to be the only one to market to their need. 

  While I'm thinking about that...ya know, I don't find AoC even all the pretty anymore.  I was looking over Guild Wars the other day and realized that it looks just about as good as AoC.  Especially when you consider that so many have to turn the dynamic shadows and lighting off to avoid game crushing lag or crashes.

  Whats wrong with the Pic above is what I wanna know.

Originally posted by ThaneB

lol I've got to agree with you man. I remember when in SWG you would have to destroy lairs that would constantly spawn enemies. Anyone who thinks that is fun has problems , or just loves to waste their life grinding. Quests are definitely needed in a game to make leveling easier and funner.

I think the major selling point of SWG was its extremely large world, and the player housing. I loved the housing in SWG. Also another selling point of SWG is the fact that you didn't just have to fight, you could become a musician or dancer. Taverns were a place you could just hang out.

People don't seem to relize that SWG had a large empty world so player housing was a must have. On the other hand it would be impossible to have player housing in WoW that isn't instanced, because the world is completely filled, with vegetation and everything. lol I remember running through Tatooine and all there was was desert and rock, and occasionaly I would see some houses. Or if I got lucky a large player city.

 

 

  To comment on this part.....

  Killing the lairs....sucked.  However, watching my avatar grow in the areas I specifically targeted once the lair was GONE.....awesome.   But, here is the thing.  The lairs?  They were quests.  Yeah, quests.  What exactly makes THAT experience so different from the rest of the MMO world's "Kill X boars" quests?  Its not like these other games are constantly offering tales of epic proportions here....in any given MMO, for each "Go do something AWESOME" quest you have 500 "Go do something really crappy for a few hours and then run across teh globe 5 times to 5 different people to gain less than a 10th of your level" quests.

  Quests do not actually make ANYTHING more fun.  At best, they trick really dumb people into thinking they aren't still just grinding mobs.  The rest of us still view it as "grinding mobs"....we just get an xp bonus for talking to someone before we went.

  Also, not to attack you or anything (I honestly just got a chuckle and wanted to share it)....but if you went to Tatooine (a desert planet) and expected to see anything BUT rocks and sand for miles...you perhaps expected the wrong thing.  I do agree that they used WAY large maps to be free for player housing.

Originally posted by Zerocyde

Originally posted by twistedvenom

So why so much Hate for the game? 

 

Mainly because we are mad. AoC was supposed to be the Holy Grail of pvp, but for some reason it ended up being just another run of the mill, endless level and gear pve treadmill. Just like 99% of all mmorpgs ever made.

We were drolling in anticipation for Shadowbane 2, but after all that waiting they handed us WoW 2. :(

  OMUGOSH!

  Someone else here has FINALLY gotten around to punching them in the gut for the same things I've been talking about when it all began!  I never thought the community would ever get past "God the Lag andBug!" long enough to actually realize its another treadmill game.  Hell, it has been so long since I started talking about it that I'VE even let it go to jump on them for more popular topics around here.

  You, sir, get a cookie.  I'm not even joking, you get a farkin cookie.  I'm not alone, anymore, and it makes me smile.

Originally posted by Mahni

Originally posted by vajuras

Interesting, people cannot even decide what the definition of a sandbox "is" around here it's no small wonder we keep getting EQ clones left & right

 

I've personally always liked wikipedia definition. It's straight forward and simple. Obviously, World of Warcraft does not meet this criteria. The presence of "Traditional Levels" simply disqualify it.

It all boils down to the linear progression. Just becase you can get powerleveled, buy a character at ebay, or what have you doesn't change this fact.

Each to his own though. I merely discuss the widely accepted definition of Sandbox

 

Also, you may want to re-read the wikipedia article you quoted.  It's about level design (where levels = traditional game levels like World 1 in Mario) not character levels.  It's about linear progression through game levels (areas), not at all about powerleveling to reach a higher character level.

 The problem when using that logic applied to the MMO genre is that it practically ensures we can ONLY define the standard crop AS purely linear...even more so than Mario.  I realize that statement might be hard to swallow at first, so let me explain.

  In WoW (example used for most widespread understanding) you can easily view each zone AS a stage.  The problem here is that, in level based MMO's, you are practically punished for going back to stages you have already completed (outleveled, in this sense).  You get worthless money, items which you cannot use, and no XP.    In traditional linear games (such AS mario) you are REWARDED for going back these days.  In all Mario games since Super Mario World, going back meant unlocking new areas or gaining more coins for extra men.  You were rewarded for going back, and even then there was always the joy of completing the challenge of the level again.  In MMO's, there is no challenge in returning...and there is no reward.

  Strictly speaking, MMO's today are twice as linear as even the most linear single player games being made now.   This plays into why burnout happens, and why that, when it does, the player often can never go back to the game again.  The "wide worlds" of this genre are nothing more than stages through which you are ushered.  In the end, you are confined to a single stage most times....repeating it ad nauseam so that you might EVENTUALLY be rewarded.  Once that part of the game sets in, the wide world is gone...and so is the magic that accompanies it.  Of all gaming genres, MMO's truly take the cake in creating disposable content....or, content which can only generally be absorbed once or twice.  I think most of us can still go back and play, from start to finish, most platformers and still obtain some joy from it.

  What joy is there in going back to the barrens?

  I have to get this off my chest....

  For the first half of this post, I thought you meant "Block Party" and I was really confused as to how she thought "sneaking out" was a workable plot.

  That said.....

  Dude, jesus.  First of all, stop being angry.  its stupid to allow other people to decide how good YOUR day is.  If she didn't want to contribute to how GOOD that day was for you...stop letting her contribute to how BAD it was.  Second, don't pay her any mind ever again.  I'm sure you have other people in your life that enjoy your company.  By feeling so "attached" to this one person, your placing them in a position of honor they obviously aren't earning.  Never treat anyone any nicer than they have earned. 

  Last, I have two rules that you are to now live your life by.  They will save you from years of heartache and headache alike.

  1:  Never sweat the small stuff

  2: Everything is small stuff

  Ingrain those into your psyche and watch as life becomes awesome and sunny for the rest of your years.

Originally posted by jusomdude

Originally posted by Majinash

I don't want to see any MMO fail, some people like them no matter what they are like.  I loved E&B and hate that it failed... really failed.  I don't like that funcom released an unfinished MMO, I hate that people accept that as OK.  but despite that I don't want it to fail as long as anyone is still having fun with it.

 

Games will continue to be released unfinished as long as there are money hungry suits behind them.

  Remember, though, that money hungry suits would not be behind them if there were not money to be made in it.  We are, after all, enablers to this situation and have been so for many years.

Originally posted by AmazingAvery

Originally posted by Gishgeron

 There IS that nagging voice in my head which reminds me that they didn't even release an RPG with working stats....thats a pretty big foul, it could hold major consequences when the big dogs come to play.  But, right now? 

 

Was fixed today (properly) before was partially wrong, now its all fixed up for strength, wisdom, dexterity and constitution for items, strength now affecting DPS not attack rating :)

  Thank you for telling me that Avery.  I mean that, genuinely.  I will not mention it again (unless the discussion is about launch issues).  I may be a hater, but I prefer my hate remain both honest and true.  I'm glad to hear they fixed this, and did so fairly soon.  I suppose they didn't mention it in their list of things to do because it was such an obvious thing to fix that it wasn't relevant to their "future plans" address.  They probably already have a "bug fix" list they are working on right now, under the radar.

  I still FAULT them for not properly testing their game, however.  Let this be a lesson to all whom try to overly control their beta and fail to use an open one.

Originally posted by Ascension08

I will agree with the guy that WoW has spoiled many, many players who WERE NOT there at the release. They came in when WoW was in it's polished state and have since grown bored (1 or 2 years). Now they expect things to be as WoW is at launch, but we know that's not possible in an MMO. The rest is just making AoC look bad (well, worse than it really is...)

  Meh, its not even the polish that makes it tick.  Well, not polish as in "unbuggy".  The game really does rock some of the best UI tools ever imagined (some of which came straight from the community, as former game mods).  Hell, thats another thing...the community actually helped make WoW what it was, because they actually paid a ton of attention to us.  It may have taken them awhile to change some things...but in the end, thats still a ton better than any company I had seen before it.  SOE was pretty much the market leader before them...and they NEVER listened. 

  I don't think that WoW spoiled people....I think that WoW showed us what CAN be done in terms of making a solid game, even if it ISN'T offering anything really new.  I don't fault former players for expecting the other teams to pay attention to what has already been done....Blizzard did, after all.  Why AREN'T these guys taking elements from these games that really matter?  Why should anyone accept moving backwards in terms of usability and user friendly structure?  Why should we not expect to get from the developers exactly what they promise? 

  Oh, I should mention to the WoW fans that even Blizzard didn't COMPLETELY deliver on everything it promised at first either.  Blizzard, however, learned from that mistake and moved forward.  Now, anytime they say something is coming...it comes.  Sometimes that means that not much is coming very soon...and thats a lot better than the alternative.  I wish everyone else would do that...just shut up until its 100% official.  Blizzard took so much flak early on that even their Forum CM"s would refuse to offer even the GUESS of a date or content until it was 100% cleared by everyone that it was ready, and set.

  I rant, and I apologize.  Maybe I just wanted to move this thread away from its very stupid roots and into something that actually lived in reality.  You can't blame me for that, can you?

Originally posted by Ascension08

I wanted to see AoC "succeed" so that 1) the fanbois will be happy (they're just people looking for a new game, right)? and 2) we'd have two or more big kids on the block to take a big chunk away from Blizzard. Seeing the game now I'd say there's going to be only one, but I think if Funcom doesn't keep going the way it's going in a few months it can be a game with a strong fanbase that will grow steadily over the next year.

  See, I'm a little different.  I do not WANT to see Blizzard lose any subs unless the game is actually better.  I don't mean better in the traditional sense of the word...I mean, using WoW as a base to set the bar for basic functions and ease of use (Simple, common things that all MMO's strive for) I would like to see the game offer at LEAST the same degree of attention to its game as that, and then move forward some.

  I would be okay with Blizzard losing every player they have...so long as the game, and the company, are truly a step ahead of that design.  My more vindictive side really wants Funcom to go belly up for not even really TRYING to push the bar at all...they didn't even stand tall enough to reach it. 

  All Blizzard losing a chunk of players to another junky MMO is going to accomplish is ensuring that this genre will stay every bit as stagnate as it has been for 10 years now.  Frankly...I'm just tired of it.  I feel that if we cannot strive for better, and innovate more, then WoW should be the only MMO left on the market.  For too long now we have seen company after company, dev after dev, throw away every last ounce of logic and ingenuity for the sake of adhering to a mold that is ebbing away.  I'd just like for ONE company to at least seriously TRY (with a decent budget and solid team) to make something fresh again.