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All Posts by Vistaakah

All Posts by Vistaakah

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107 posts found

I'm done as well. The newly designed areas of WoW are cool especially the floating barge in the former Thousand  Needles zone but after two weeks of play and 70 levels i cancelled my account because i'm sick of the dated game format of kill x, return y, go see z OVER and over and over. The only reason i chose to level years ago was to get to max level and get suitable gear to PVP. I refuse to waste any more time to get to the part of the game i like. I do not enjoy the monotonous, boring routine of leveling in MMO's. Come to think of it i never have. I want to log into a game, wage war against a virtual opponent and log out when i'm desire. I love the fantasy format of games for pvp combat but i need to find a FPS game thats about the fight and not about the path to the fight.

Originally posted by thebigchin11

WOW took everything the was dull about MMPORGS and made it fun.  Their biggest acheivment was a world you really wanted to explore, been diluted recently - well over 4 yrs.

Finally got back to this thread ;). I was actually bored of WoW after a couple months coming from various other MMO's when it was released.. WoW took from others and improved. What i most liked about WOW when i started playing was the mail system, auction house and personal mounts. Other then that the game walks you around pretty much on a leash. In game radar, Thottbott that walks you through every quest in the game. Gold farmers that never existed in games to my knowledge until WOW created that market now they are in every title.  Why does everybody seem to want to mention WOW when offering game advice, suggestions?

Originally posted by gaeanprayer
Originally posted by Vistaakah
Originally posted by Hype
Originally posted by Vistaakah

 I hope that by all us gamers being idle without subscriptions that developers take notice and listen for a change. Even in the early days of arcade games like waaaay back. Space Invaders, Asteroids, Centipede, etc. etc. we all wanted to have our initials at the top of the HIGH score chart..They need to bring back the human element, force hard work and socialization back into the MMO world and make it so that those people who put the extra effort in are rewarded for it as an individual or more importantly a team.

 

A company that employs most of these basic concepts in the next generation MMO will lead the market if you ask me. It will capture the market of players who want more out of a game.

 I don't enjoy killing other players. It's not fun. Even when I'm winning, PvP gets very unfun for me. I don't enjoy that type of socialization and, truth be told, most people don't. What you're asking for has been offered in the MMO market, and it is not leading. The idea that you think the market wants to be forced to work hard is... perplexing.

People play games to have fun. If the masses get a boatload of fun out of "working hard" they'll do it, if all they get is a digital reward, they won't. Only the hardcore competitives will. People who are just as likely to get that kind of satisfaction from sports and other gaming situations.

And forced socialization isn't socialization at all.

So you enjoy killing 12 bears then riding 20 minutes to turn in who sends you out to kill 15 wolves? That is WoW. That is LOTRO that is modern day MMO's. The Human element is what made MMO gaming otherwise all you would have is computer based single player games.  You must also realize that the population that brought the MMORPG industry into success are the ones who played the first online MMO ever released. If people are interested in PVE based games then their are far, far superior offline game titles to choose from that don't require a monthly fee. As far as socialization in online MMO games. That died out in every game released after WOW and even WOW is a dead feeling world as is LOTRO and even EQ2.

For you to consider pvp as adding a 'human element' just shows how out of touch you are with the community by large. PvP doesn't breed companionship or make the world feel larger and more communal. It may for you, but you're one of the rare few. Most people don't want to be constantly looking over their shoulder while they're playing a game, most people don't find that exciting and instead find it sort of tedious and irksome to have to run back to the place you were constantly when you're ganked. If anything, PvP breeds contempt and elitism, which are not particularly good traits to foster if a thriving community is what you're aiming for. It's not the PvP itself that does this, it's the people participating, because PvP attracts gamers with a certain mindset. This is part of the reason why you'll never find PvP in an MMO that's as good as an FPS game, because when we pop into those games we KNOW what we're there for and everyone else is there for the same thing. There's no RPG element, there's no stats, no gear (normally), no questing, none of that crap. People are just there to kick each other's asses, and no one can complain because they're all there for the same thing.

Nothing about your post is accurate or logical, it's based entirely on the assumption that everyone shares your views on PvP. Saying there are far superior games offline is far too obvious to mean anything; there are offline games superior to other offlines, mmo's superior to other mmo's, pvp games superior to other pvp games. What's your point? Once again, this is a subjective view explaining yet more subjective views. What one person considers superior is not the same for everyone else.

I don't think that people enjoy killing x of x and turning in to y. They do it because that's all there is to do, which is the complaint of the MMO community. They've been asking for meaningful PvE, because you're right, those fetch quests are tedious. That doesn't make PvE inferior, it makes developers lazy. Once upon a time those kinds of quests were rare, and somewhere along the line they instead became the backbone to a game. But prior to that, you know what fostered that community, added that human element? People gathering to take down a monster they didn't stand a chance against alone. The only time PvP ever did the same was when people got together to zerg.

Where did i write that PVP bread companionship. I'm a miltary vet. I don't have to know you to fight beside you now do i? Thats the general concept of teamwork. DAOC for example allowed those who wanted to play safe to never venture beyond the safety of player keeps. The point is if your a bowler then wii bowling isn't as fun as kicking the rear of your buddy at the local bowling alley. AI based games are predictable where as the human element is not. That is what makes for the challenge, competition and fun in games.

I played FPS long before MMO's were ever conceived. Quake, Unreal,  They were fun , challenging but not encompassing like MMO worlds are.  DAOC had an incredible community be it friend or foe or the same. Everybody knew everybody on our server. Community was outstanding and that community could never develop in a soley based PVE game. Unless you've spent alot of time in a PVP driven environment you can't understand how it fostered social relationships. Back in the day it was great benefit to make friends in games. Now it isn't necessary at all. That's the key.

Originally posted by theartist
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by theartist

I concur.

PVE players just weren't satisfied with having Second Life. So they ruined the actual MM aspect of the ORPG.

You can't blame PvE players because PvP generally sucks.A good MMORPG needs both good PvE and PvP to be truly fun. Sadly is DaoC the only game even close and that went downhill a long time ago.

My hopes is that GW2 will get us some fresh blood and new ideas, it is one of the few MMOs that spend a lot of the work on both things from the start.

Most MMOs have always felt like PvP were adding at the last moment as an afterthought. And that is way before second life.

I disagree entierly with what you have to say. And find your hyperbole disheartening.

I mean I can understand your opinion on the matter, but it's far from fact. I could list several MMOs with great PVP prior to and post casual-PVE-gutting of the genre. But it's been done a million times before and you've obviously seen that list a number of times considering I see you post on every post.

Player vs player interaction can be more than what you perceive, and it is the only real basis of massive multiplayer. Relying on the chat client alone was bad enough, but now many developers are striving to make it so you don't even have to chat with other players while you tear down blocks of hp.

So that void gets filled with people needlessly trash talking and in general being annoying.

There's never been a PVP heavy game released that's had a 'poor community'. You can be on the losing side and get sore and everyone bicker, but it's not nearly as 'poor' as having a supposed forced comrade of yours in a game setting deny you access to content you feel you need because your gear score is lower than he decides it needs to be.

PVE focus in MMORPGs has ruined the genre.

 You said it perfectly in a single sentence.   "THERE's NEVER BEEN A PVP HEAVY GAME RELEASED" that has had a poor community.

Enough said!

Originally posted by jaxsundane

Maybe your statement holds true but that would still be for only a portion of the gamers who feel there is something wrong with mmorpg's, there are gamers out there unhappy with the direction of mmorpg's for reasons vastly different than what you site and that can be seen throughout these forums.

To be honest I don't aspire to that kind of gameplay so it would do nothing for me, in fact I'm fine with the steps the genre seems to be taking now.  I like the fact that SE seems to be very pro active in trying to fix the mistakes they made, and even Cryptic before them.  I like the direction being taken by a few upcoming games like GW2,TOR, and a few others as well.  And I enjoy LOTRO right now.

Lastly the thread title implies that mmorpg's as a genre is no longer growing and I just don't know how true that is.  If it isn't growing then I guess I would owe you an apology but if it is then as another responder said this thread should be title "what I find lacking".

The market is strong for what i proposed but the devs are afraid to bail from the WoW footprint in fear of failure. Look at Warhammer where it went and where it could of been. They *Mythic Entertainment* caved into the WOW footprint and it failed. I've given LOTRO a run and its just *another* PVE clone..  Since everything is fed to you by easy mode layouts there really is no adventure at all. Your led like autopilot to every quest NPC or location via in game radar. I remember riding a NPC horse for 30 minutes real time to get to a location. Time sink? Big time but the world was big. Guild Wars 2 with any hope won't possess any WoW like elements. It will be open world, fueled with PVP, adventure and the things that keep alot of us coming back day after day to play. No more static games for us please.

Originally posted by BioNut

There is nothing lacking in MMOs other than the actual playerbase. Let me explain.

When people say WoW destroyed the MMORPG genre they are actually wrong.  WoW created the genre as it is today. In fact I will go as far as saying that most WoW players are not MMORPG players they are WoW players and will never play another MMORPG (most probably dont even know of other games).

So that leaves all these other developers fighting over customers they believe to be there but, in reality, don't actually exist. This is why most games have not been very successful post WoW.

Companies like BioWare realize this which is why they are going after their fans and SW fans. They know that the MMO player base is minscule so they have to pull in other customers like WoW did. Hence the story centric themepark gameplay.

In closing, WoW actually created the playerbase but that playerbase is loyal to wow. Actual MMO players are a much smaller demographic than WoW players.

 

The genre name should be changed from MMORPGs to WoW.

WoW's success was in creating a game that really is non challenging to play taking game elements from all that came before it and either adding  or simplifying what was already there.. You don't have to invest much time and effort in it to advance/achieve. Whether you play or not has no influence on the game world at all. It's simple, polished and most 5 year olds could play it and that is why its so popular with its subscriber base. Most that play World of Warcraft have known few if any other titles and thats a bad basis for comparison of why something works and why something doesn't.

Originally posted by Hype
Originally posted by Vistaakah

 I hope that by all us gamers being idle without subscriptions that developers take notice and listen for a change. Even in the early days of arcade games like waaaay back. Space Invaders, Asteroids, Centipede, etc. etc. we all wanted to have our initials at the top of the HIGH score chart..They need to bring back the human element, force hard work and socialization back into the MMO world and make it so that those people who put the extra effort in are rewarded for it as an individual or more importantly a team.

 

A company that employs most of these basic concepts in the next generation MMO will lead the market if you ask me. It will capture the market of players who want more out of a game.

 I don't enjoy killing other players. It's not fun. Even when I'm winning, PvP gets very unfun for me. I don't enjoy that type of socialization and, truth be told, most people don't. What you're asking for has been offered in the MMO market, and it is not leading. The idea that you think the market wants to be forced to work hard is... perplexing.

People play games to have fun. If the masses get a boatload of fun out of "working hard" they'll do it, if all they get is a digital reward, they won't. Only the hardcore competitives will. People who are just as likely to get that kind of satisfaction from sports and other gaming situations.

And forced socialization isn't socialization at all.

So you enjoy killing 12 bears then riding 20 minutes to turn in who sends you out to kill 15 wolves? That is WoW. That is LOTRO that is modern day MMO's. The Human element is what made MMO gaming otherwise all you would have is computer based single player games.  You must also realize that the population that brought the MMORPG industry into success are the ones who played the first online MMO ever released. If people are interested in PVE based games then their are far, far superior offline game titles to choose from that don't require a monthly fee. As far as socialization in online MMO games. That died out in every game released after WOW and even WOW is a dead feeling world as is LOTRO and even EQ2.

Originally posted by glofish

I just played the worgen starter race to level 8 on  a friend's account. I don't understand why some people rave about the new questing. It seems  far inferior to the old school approach. It feels  limited, isolated, a simplistic single player experience and I had the sense of being on rails the whole time.

 

WoW used to be about the great and immersive world. The worgen zone feels anything but.

 

Sorry but WoW has never been an immersive world with most of  it either totally instanced or zone instanced. Now i hear its even worse with Cata. Anybody else sick with companies making games with no difficulity at any level?

I've played all the expansions of WoW up until this one. Last one held my interest for less then a month so i won't be spending on this one. I haven't bought an MMO in the past couple years that was worth the money. I know if i bought this in less then a month i would be unsubbing as well because, well its World of Warcraft.  Now WoW is easier then ever before? What is the point of a game that is without challenge, merit or reward. With all that being said. Blizzard is a outstanding game company/producer. They obviously know how to bring in the dollars. They want the game to be so easy a 5 year old or lady at the senior center on a laptop could play the game successfully as well.

What really surprises me is there largest customer base which isn't the USA are the grind game lovers *Asians* who make up over 60% of all World of Warcraft subscriptions still play. Sorry but i want a game that i'm driven to play and not one that i just feel like playing. WoW just like LOTRO i can just stop playing out of boredom for a month and not miss anything at all. May just load up Guild Wars and play that till GW2 comes out.

 

 

I've played about every game every released in an MMO format. From the early days of Fighter Ace on MSN to a game called 10-Six, the Lineage series to DAOC, EQ, Conan, LOTRO, WOW, EVE Online, etc., etc. I've seen the gaming world change from hard work and social grinds till your blind to easy mode and nobody needs anybody to be successful. PVP, PVE, mixed, instanced, non- instanced. Yeah I've been there.


In all those years i know what i like and what i don't. Of all the things I've seen and don't there are certain elements that can not be removed from the game and it be successful. Basically up until World of Warcraft where as even WOW has some social element the rest bailed on a proven concept to where we are in the MMO gaming world now and that place is NOWHERE.


There is no human competitive element anymore from a teamwork perspective. I will use DAOC as an example because Mythic blew the perfect concept of a game when they went from DAOC to Warhammer Online. In DAOC which is easy mode now thanks to WOW and those released after  was the perfect balance of PVE and PVP. Yeah the PVE grind was mind numbing but  that brought you into an element of socialization and the reality that if you wanted to succeed you need to rely on and help each other out.

 

The Relic system was genius. Those who held the relics from the PVP end of the deal made more money and exp off of PVE. Had control of high exp and reward dungeons if they had dominant control of certain key keeps. There was reason to play, reason to fight, reason to compete against other humans not as a lone warrior but as a team/realm. Teamwork won battles and winning actually had rewards.

 

 

You had to PVE sometimes even if you didn't want to during epic story lines in hostile PVP zones but it was worth it to me as you got nearly double the exp adventuring in PVP zones but it wasn't without risk. What's wrong with risk? I remember many enemy players training a camp on you and well 5 hours of exp were gone in a flash.


Did it tick you off? Heck yes it did and you got on the horn calling realm mates out to get retribution if you were not strong enough. You were hunted across the frontiers so you were either murdered or you ran back to the safety of your homeland. Strategy mattered, having stealthy eyes really mattered. I mean recon was battle deciding. Oh yeah those perfect ambushes rocked. I was just the eyes and many times i wasn't rewarded in realm points but i was in being the person who gave my people the advantage.

 

Hey sometimes that's enough isn't it. Its in our nature to be competitive as human beings and compete against other people not other computer generated mobs solely. DAOC wasn't perfect by any means but it was the best at providing a world for players to engage in combat, have a reason to play and fight not just for ones self but others. Was it a time sink? Oh yeah but that's ok to. It gave reason to play and that's ultimately what keeps us coming back.


I would like to believe that some gaming company can actually see that this i speak of is what the gaming world wants, needs. We don't need more the stupid format that questing has brought to games, the easy road to stardom. Right now the MMORPG world of players is starving. If you think the latest WOW release will change anything your mistaken as a recent poll i read about 50% of those polled said they weren't buying into any more World of Warcraft..


I hope that by all us gamers being idle without subscriptions that developers take notice and listen for a change. Even in the early days of arcade games like waaaay back. Space Invaders, Asteroids, Centipede, etc. etc. we all wanted to have our initials at the top of the HIGH score chart..They need to bring back the human element, force hard work and socialization back into the MMO world and make it so that those people who put the extra effort in are rewarded for it as an individual or more importantly a team.

 

A company that employs most of these basic concepts in the next generation MMO will lead the market if you ask me. It will capture the market of players who want more out of a game.

The ERA of the MMORPG has in a sense come to an end. Those of us that got our feet wet at inception have accepted this regardless of if we try a new game title or not. At a time folks were amused with level progression but more so with the social element that once existed that no longer does today.

Why? The general concept of MMO's is boring. Get a quest, go get , return and do over and over and over. Being that the social element no longer exists and isn't required at all that simply makes the games boring. I'm  going back to playing single player games that actually have a story behind them  and are more then rinse and repeat dead story lines that nobody really cares about as well as human element games like COD, etc of old. Log on with friends and play if you will.

DAOC was the perfect MMO. PVE with PVP.  Once you reached max level you could play the human/social element in defending the realm 24/7 if you wanted.  The human element/storyline is far greater then any concept somebody thinks up and its ever changing. The PVE element is the same in every game. PVE doesnt have the ability to change like people do.

As i set here thinking and i suppose dreaming of the next best thing i can say their won't be any. The big thing that once defined MMO's *social networking* has been replaced with sites like Facebook.com. The trend in social gaming will be closely linked to Social Networking websites ideally tailored to individual preferences. Yeah custom gaming if you will.

EVE has the sandbox model down pat but regretfully some of us could care less for the backdrop of space. Eve is really and old game and its not easy to get in wth the game for new players. Shadowbane though horribly executed and funded was probably in concept the greatest PVP MMO ever created.. I don't think its possible to recapture the old school exciting cause and effect feel of MMO's. People want it all right now and are unwilling to do what it takes to have all.

I took a last leap * bought Age of Conan* which is as good as any other MMO on the market* and am bored after 3 days. Log  in, kill computer generated AI rinse, repeat, and do the same thing over and over and over to what achieve max level, reroll and repeat the mind numbing format of modern day MMORPGS.

 

Step 1. Kill mobs

Step 2. Level

Step 3. Kill more mobs 

Step 4. Realize we've all been mindlessly doing it for HOW many years for me its over 12 years but no longer.

 

When i look back at how long i played some games. Most were worth only but a year max of interest but we played them back then for other reasons. Who cares about quests since they are all the same generally. Levels mean nothing and now there is no social element to MMO games like years gone by.

So we add up the wasted time and years realizing we could of been doing something different.with our lives with no regrets. We met many great friends in the process , fewer in modern day MMO's. We players are unnecessary to others in todays games. Getting the best gear is a simple achievement that means nothing in the end. Anybody can obtain it with time.

I honestly don't  think those seeking will ever find their once lost love but that is ok. Buy a Harley, take a trip with a friend. Live life? Regretfully the modern day MMO gamer will NEVER experience what we have over  the years. It was a great ride no questions there.

With that being said i'm as hard core of a computer gamer as can be but with no reservations can list myself as 

NOT looking for a game. Unplug its not so bad.

Originally posted by uquipu

 


Originally posted by bloodbone
Essentially I am asking what type of sandbox MMO would you develop and what features would you employ if time, money and talent were not an issue.


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Everyone is just going to mention their favorite dead or dying game.
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How about a game where you design and create items, houses, vehicles etc out of game with a separate program. Then you upload the objects you just made to the game where you can use them. The items you can create is determined by progression of your toon. Lowbees can make simple items. Max levels can make very complex/powerful items.
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In the beginning, there will be nothing in this world but sand. The world will be flat and featureless. Players make roads, towns lakes, mountains, etc

 

THIS IS THE GAME I SEEK!

Free to play is just an option but it won't ever become a main stream option. F2P is a limited budget compared to subscription based games who can do alot more because they have alot more assets. People will gladly hand over a subscription payment for a  worthy game. The problem now is finding a worthy game.

Their is nothing new to see in the near or far gaming future and hasn't been in the past 5 years.  Just a bunch of stagnant boring MMO gaming formats released one after the other. The question that should be asked is where will gamers go when WoW dies since its the modern day favorite among casual gamers. Who will feed there hunger when they look for another thrill? I've spent tons of money on just about every MMO title ever released in the past 12+ years. The tables have now turned to the point that i and a majority of fellow veteran gamers won't spend a penny on a gaming title that isn't  completely different then any MMO i've played before. A game that puts community above all things will be the next success when gameplay is like i said secondary compared to social aspects.

Blizzard may be able to make another game but i doubt they will ever be able to put another game on the market with the same unimagined success they had with WoW. Right now the MMORPG *new* market seems dead. Their used to be a ton of games to buy and play and for the past 6-12 months i've checked the shelves to simply find NOTHING new. That pretty much sums it up.

Originally posted by Comnitus

I can personally recommend EVE 100%. Because it's more complex and more of a thinking man's game, the kiddies tend to get bored, frustrated, confused, or they see something shiny and go chase it. Which makes for a pretty good community overall.


 

How to play Eve.

1. Upgrade starter ship to tier 1 miner.

2. Mine until you can get enough coin to have the highest miner

3. Fly your ship around in empty space. Nothing really to look at .

It's such a huge world i rarely saw but a few people per zone in high sec zones.  Though i agree it seemed fairly mature it was also boring as heck unless you consider the final frontiers fun.

I've been playing for going on my 3rd week and i must say i'm impressed. I'm not much the space sci-fi freak by any ways but this game is something *different* and *refreshing* for us LONG time MMO player's to experience. The learning curve of just figuring out the basics is very high. You could play this game for years and not know it all which is a good thing. No END game so no worry about running out of things to do.

 

This game will NOT appeal to anybody not seeking a serious mental challenge. Nothing in this game is hand fed to you like games like *WOW*. do. Yeah it was frustrating on day one but once you begin to figure the basics out it gets better and better. The first week i played i kept saying this game isn't for me and the more i learned the more i've become interested in the complexity of the game itself. There is no direction, there are no rules per say. The game is totally player controlled in every aspect. I mean what other game allows you to be a pirate or a banker or IPO all in the same game. There is so much in this game you don't have to be a combatant.

 

Community seems very mature and the trash is generally policed quite nicely by CCP. Once of the reasons for that is simple difficulty. That in itself doesn't appeal to hack and slash button spammers. Most people i've came accross seemed to be willing to help. Don't come begging for money its not tolerated. You must earn your way to the top. It's just a totally different gaming experience.  The challenge is a draw in itself. Who wants a game with an ending compared to a game that has endless possibilities.  35,000 players on a single server dwarfs any game i know of for population hehe. Some will like it but more will hate it. Only way you will find out is if you try it out. Glad i found this game since there is probably not going to be another decent MMO released in next 5 years or so. I've now got something to keep me entertained for a long time.

At release though buggy beyond recognition it was a beautful game graphically but it doesn't change the facts that its just another clone of everything beyond EQ1 when it comes down to it. Grind and level just doesnt cut it anymore in an MMORPG. We the veteran players need more to do then just level and get nice gear. I did like the political system they put in  which was a nice touch. The future of gaming is actually in developers producing a game that the players pretty much have total control over the flow and outcome of it. Again after playing MMO's since basically there inception nobody can seem to produce a game thats not only challenging but interesting to play anymore.

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