Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Is anyone really surprised by this? It was doomed from the very beginning.

But someone is actually VERY happy now... Blizzard, who gain a percentage of every single sale.

The real money AH of diablo is the typical Blizzard answer to a problem... it's not "how can we get rid of RMT so that our players aren't annoyed by them and our games have a balanced playfields", no no no! The real thinking is "how can we take advantage and make money of the RMT market". You can expect Titan to have a real money AH too.

It is no different than CCP cashing in on plex sales in EVE.

Rather than combat the gold sellers, both companies are getting in on the action.

I think it is a good business move, but as a gamer I hate it.

Originally posted by tixylix

Originally posted by Fdzzaigl

Honestly, the population only really started to drop on my server after 1.2.

The biggest blows came when Diablo 3 was released.

Our server was one of the bigger ones though, Legions of Lettow was the second most populated PvP server EU side.

 

They should have prepared for transfers far sooner however, as with most of the stuff that needs fixing, BioWare doesn't manage to do it fast and efficient. Which is one of the game's biggest problems.

 

 

Lots of PVPers said 1.2 ruined the game.

I would bet the hugest percentage of player base type lost was the PVP folks.

Originally posted by Fennris

Originally posted by erictlewis

All one has to do is look at the way they are handling the transfers to realize they don't have a clue how to comunicate with their customers.

It has already been a disaster, they had to stop the transfers due to bugs.  One has to wonder what all servers are going to be origina and destination.

 

They didn't actually stop transfers yesterday - I was able to transfer characters at various times all night yesterday - they just stopped opening up more servers to the service and sent us a patch last night. 

The "disaster" is that they waited until <1 week before releasing the service to tell players anything about it and what they did tell us led us to believe that many if not most would have transfers available yesterday (or at least a full list of origin/destination servers with a timetable).  Instead we got a very short list of servers and assurances that it would be updated over the span of "days and not weeks" so we should keep checking the site (which wasn't actually updated properly when new servers were first added to the transfer list).  Most players still don't know if they're an origin or a destination and that's very frustrating.

I agree....keeping folks hanging with uncertainty isnt cool. I would like to know where my characters are going to end up, even if it takes a week or so to have it done.

BW keeps shooting themselves in the foot. I understand the same folks working on WAR are now here, but that is why you have leadership over them. I bet if they could do it again, they would take a mulligan on a number of decisions made the past yr.

Originally posted by Wicoa

You dont lay off around 200 people, announce a mini  paid expansion and merge servers unless you have small numbers processing.

A mini paid expansion? Sure would like to see this information. It is news to me. I am not calling you a liar, just would like to see the source.

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by Mannish

Originally posted by Moaky07

I say if a person spends their time in a live game forum to flame it, rather than finding something they do enjoy, they need to move the fuck on from gaming IMO.

 

There are too many different types of video games, in the world, to think you have a legitimate excuse to bother others that are enjoying playing their games of choice. I know those of us that do play TOR cant have a conversation without being spammed, and I have seen remarks that the same thing is going on with Tera as well.

 

 

+1 to this.

 Fuck that.

Some around here take any debate over a game as being negative. Including the person you quoted. I specifically remember when people were debating over population declines in TOR talking about server transfers or mergers being needed. His response? People were lying, hating, etc. Just to give one example.

Some around here treat any negative discussion relating to a game as "flaming it". Quite a few actually...

As for the OP. The vibe will remain the same. People love to debate and bitch. Regardless the games those two aspects aren't going to change.

 

Quote me, or stfu eh? Constructive criticism is a good thing. Too bad the retards having a monkey shit tossing session, in the TOR forums, is something I would expect from Romper Room. Hell I would be happy if they could simply show some clerical skills, and keep the bitching to similar threads, and not spam the forum with regurgitated shit, or worse "from the crack of the ass" headlines.

There is a thread right now stating TOR is 200k or 300k subs. Yep....totally factual. /sarcasm off

When you have folks panhandling for donations, to get the Repopulation made, coming into a forum talking about a game not being able to do this/that, that is pure irony at work. How about topics of how well SWG done? Yep we have seen those as well.

Maybe I am wrong.....maybe forum PVP is the way to go. Perhaps I should consider going into ArcheAge forums to attack that game, or the Repopulation forums to remind folks they couldnt come up with funding by conventional methods. Would it really hurt if I threw half truths, or flat out lies....that does appear to be the modus operandi around these parts.

Sorry....I dont need to stoop to that level. Pity some others cant say the same.

Originally posted by mikahr

Originally posted by colddog04

Yeah... I always considered box sales first month to count as an active sub myself. I thought most people did.

 

They never released the month after the first month numbers, but they did release numbes after the first three month which said 1.3 million subs.

 

It would lead me to believe that there were between 1.3 and 1.7 million that subbed up at least the second month.

Well, since they admitted to pad their numbers none of those numbers are believable, and they even debunked themselves on 1,7m figure.

As BW says: subs are funny thing and depend on what math you use. Normal or creative kind.

You can throw any MMO Calculus into the equation ya want, you still dont arrive at 200k to 300k, which is a stated fact in this post. It isnt the first time either.

It is more bluster thrown by the haters. This forum is dominated by them. It generally revolves around the same theme....one makes an outlandish claim, then the rest chime in.

As for the comments of overlooking stuff, I think I have been on record several times stating PVP is a total fubar, and no way it should of been included in game. I am also on record stating there should of been a ton more end game PVE since leveling times seem to be hit pretty fast.

Same with things like custom UIs, too many servers, etc etc.

There is a way to go about listing stuff ya dont like, and then there is the flamer drama of MMORPG.com.  Some of you really need to grow up, cause the song n dance got old long ago.

Dont like PvP, so went with none.

I find it interesting basically 70% do not want it forced on them. Sandbox/PVP is very well represented on this site, and yet the overwhelming vote is no thanks.

Originally posted by GTwander

Cool, but I'm planning on waiting a while to where all the backed-up copies not selling in stores drop drastically.

Very few games don't do this, and only because of prior arrangements with the publishers/distributers (First-party games, EA and Activision/Blizzard). Starcraft 2 is still 60$ at Frys, ridiculous.

I have bought a lot of SP games at launch the last few yrs, only to see them drop in a couple months.

I have been trying to reserve first day purchases to must have titles. The better games tend to drop slower anyways, so even if it drops down to 20 in 6 months,  If I am really going to jam that title, is the extra 2.50 per week a major storm? I dont think so.

If it is a superhero game or something(excluding Batman), waiting several months to get half off(or more) is great for a title you will only play here n there.

Originally posted by darker70

Originally posted by JC-Smith

Originally posted by Moaky07

Well first off, I believe you are one of the Devs working on the Repopulation, so it is funny to hear your claim that making player creatd content systems actually requires less of a team. If you ever listened to the general MMO sandbox fan around here, they would claim a sandbox costs more to make.

Second off....it is a bit shifty IMO to be propping up the system you aim to use(Kickstarter), and not at least identify yourself.

Third off....I will wish ya luck on your venture. I can respect someone actually trying to make something they want, vs being forced to endure constant whining cause the world doesnt work how you wish. I mean this with the utmost sincerity.

1) Generated and player created content requires a lot more initial work. Once they are functional though they require a lot less long term work, because players will be creating situations and content can be reused with generation. Each game is different, but in general I can't see any reason that someone could claim a sandbox would cost them more money to produce than a theme park game.

2) Not hiding that I'm a developer, I think it's relatively well known. I post semi-regularly in the pub on various topics. The only time I've ever felt the need to identify myself is when answering questions about the game in comments threads, etc. The things I said about Kickstarter a generalized things.

Having been making indie games for many years now, and having worked on Repop for the past four years probably gives me a bit more of a perspective from the indie side of things and on maximizing your dollar. But not all of the people kickstarting these projects are newcomers. In the past few months we've seen a new Wasteland, Leisure Suit Larry, Shadowrun games get funded, as well as projects from the creators of SpaceQuest and Monkey Isle receive funding. And certainly not all of them are people who were rejected by publishers (as someone here suggested) either.

There are some harsh realities on how game publishing works:

The publisher generally advances the funds, and take a large chunk of the royalties for that investment. Your advance must be paid back before you see any royalties. This is why you often here that most games don't make money. Often developers don't make back enough royalties and they turn to their next game and a new advance.

Developers generally get their advances in installments. They have milestones to get the next deal. If things go poorly in development, they often are forced to launch before they are ready. Sometimes games get cancelled. Sometimes creative control is lost. Many of the decisions behind the scenes are not in the control of the developer's, but in the hands of publisher's who may not be on the same page as them.

From a developer's standpoint you don't really want to deal with any of  that... but for years that was the only way to get your game on shelves. With electronic distribution that is less of a problem than it was in the past. It's still a route many people go down though because it gives them exposure and often funds their development. That's not going to change.

Where Kickstarter changes that, is that it gives developers a viable alternative to publishers and  venture capitolists. And it allows them to take more risks than publishers may be willing to take. There's a reason there are so many wow-like MMOs these days. Half of that because that is seen as a proven formula. The other half is that investors want to invest in the safe bet. That doesn't mean sandbox or outside of the box MMOs can't get published. There are opportunities out there, but they come with strings attached.

My personal thoughts on Kickstarter is that it's a good thing. That doesn't mean I'm going to go through and put money on every game idea out there, or that anyone else should either. Any time you spend money you should do your homework. I can understand people being skeptical about how they spend their hard earned cash.

I don't really understand the resentment towards Kickstarter though, or people who like to condascend others for contributing to projects. There are generally good incentives from most projects, which allows players to get some added value for their contributions when the game ships. Obviously it doesn't do you much good if the game doesn't ship, but that's where using your head and choosing your projects wisely comes into play.

Thanks JC appreciate the input considering your busy scedhule communication like this  is the one of many reasons I backed Repop.

@mOAKY7  As above this is a typical post from The Co-owner and if you check out the forums and Kickstarter, there is no way they are hideing anything the teams honesty is pretty much their major plus factor among many.

I had never seen/noticed the person post before until the night I quoted them. Unlike some, I dont spend my time on active/pre launch game forums to troll them. If I do go it is to read, and occasionally make a comment.  I was doing some reading about the Owen class announcement, and saw a couple of other threads was only reason I knew person.

The only thing I had really seen of the game prior was from the trolls carrying that tag in the TOR forums.  They actually do a lot of spouting off about TOR, and subs, for someone knocking door to door hoping to get their style of game made.

Anyways the Devs seem like decent chaps....pity their game is attracting some unsavory types, but that is their problem.

Originally posted by UsualSuspect

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by UsualSuspect

And on your final sentence. The soloer is redefining the genre. How can they not be? Multiplayer. Not Single Player. Not Solo Player. Multiplayer. The genre is multiplayer. Got it yet? I'll say again. Multi. Player. How am I trying to redefine a genre that is already, by its own description, a multiplayer one?

The soloer isn't redefining the genre, the marketplace is.  It's based on the numbers.  The groupers just don't have the numbers to justify catering to them.  Don't like it?  Come up with more groupers.

You want to know who to blame?  Look in the mirror.

Assuming that solo gamers prefer single player style gameplay and groupers prefer multiplayer gameplay, then we can look at the best selling games of the year and make an assumption here. Top selling of 2011: Call of Duty. Third best selling: Battlefield 3. Now I know these games have a single player campaign, but at about 5-10 hours of gameplay I doubt people are buying it for that alone. So what we're left with is a vast majority of gamers preferring a multiplayer game over a single player game such as Skyrim.

Now we can put those multiplayer gamers into an MMO and see that the number of groupers suddenly rises. The problem is, developers are going the solo route with their game designs and thus we see the problem with most MMO's since WoW was released. They peak at the start when they gather interest, then quickly dwindle down to life support subscription numbers when people realise what the game is all about. SW:TOR is the biggest example of this, which is not surprising considering it really is little more than a single player game online.

If you consider the number of MMO's that have been released since WoW that all incorporate solo play and how badly they're doing in the genre, then I think we can say that players in general, MMO players at least, don't want single player in their multiplayer game. The biggest successes in the genre have incorporated multiplayer gaming over soloing, from vanilla WoW to Final Fantasy and Eve.

So perhaps it's not about numbers, it's about the developers not doing their market research properly. They're all trying to copy the WoW formula on easy mode and it's simply not working, because people don't want that style of game.

Dont agree

You are trying to extrapolate one market into another. It is basically the same thing as "folks like Skyrim so lets have another game like SWG". Those CoD MP setups are short excursions, and each player basically has the same chance. There is no sub involved. It is in no way/shape/form a basis for MMO market research.

They got the collection plate going around here for The Repopulation. I suggest you dig into your wallet for the type of gaming you demand others put up with.

Originally posted by Trol1

Originally posted by Hopscotch73

Originally posted by ktanner3

Originally posted by Hopscotch73

It does suck that they're not offering guild transfers, but if you're all on the same server anyway, wouldn't you all have the option to move to one server only? That would make it a bit easier....but still far from ideal. I really wouldn't want to be a guild leader trying to organise a guild move, strikes me as being about as easy as herding cats. 

I hope that's something they'll address further down the line. 

If the guild leaders have any organizational skills they will pick a server and send a mass mail message to the members stating where the guild is moving to. Our guild has an actual website and our leader constantly updates it along with messages waiting for us on a pop up screen the moment we log in.  I think it's better this way because not everyone will agree of where to move and they should have the freedom to go where they want to go.

 

I was thinking more about things like the Guild Bank - it's not all that clear how that's going to work. To quote from the site: "For guild members and masters, you will not be able to transfer your guild as a whole to your new server; instead you will need to reform it. If you have a guild bank, it will be re-granted to your new guild on your destination server by Customer Service."

 There's nothing in there about the contents of the bank - so that's an open question. Imagine having to divvy up Guild Bank contents among members and then getting everyone to transfer, and then recouping everything....yeah, even with people I trust, that would not be fun. Someone's transfer is delayed for whatever reason and there's a panic because they had some Guild Bank stuff on their character...

I'm not loooking to move servers, but I'm an officer in an active 100+ player guild, with a bank chock-full of shinies that we'd want to move too. Yes, GMs and officers should be organized, and saying "Hey let's all vote on a move: Yes or No" is easily organized, it's after that that the headaches can start. 

Obviously if CS can transfer the contents of the bank too it'll all be much simpler, but only time will tell if that'll be the case. Forgive me for being cynical about it! 

From the quote, yes, I think CS will access the bank guild, "take stock of it", and then just transfer it all over to the new guild.

But obviously the safest way - if you don't trust SWTOR CS to do things right, is to have every guild member take their stuff out of the bank and then gather again on the new server with the new guild and a new guild bank to fill. ;-)

Yep that would probably be easiest.

I say if a person spends their time in a live game forum to flame it, rather than finding something they do enjoy, they need to move the fuck on from gaming IMO.

There are too many different types of video games, in the world, to think you have a legitimate excuse to bother others that are enjoying playing their games of choice. I know those of us that do play TOR cant have a conversation without being spammed, and I have seen remarks that the same thing is going on with Tera as well.

Hah

Threads like these show just how delusional the usual suspects are around these parts. If things were like the OP suggests, you would be seeing the game client actually given away, or a price tag of 5 bucks like so many other MMOs do.

Instead, we once more have the SWG PRECioUs crowd, a GW2 fanboi or two, and even some Repopulation folks taking time from soliciting the boards to rattle off the yaps.

We heard SWG was going to close for like 4 yrs.....do you guys intend to carry on as long about this game as well? It isnt going anywhere, nor is it down to 300k or less.

Lets clue in on some reality shall we? Not only will this game keep plugging along, GW2 wont be the harbinger of Baby Jesus Tears, the Repopulation is going to be Nicheville or less, and you guys will never get back the Precious. All the while, the so called 200 to 300k will continue to pull in more money than all 3....well 2 since Owen Wars is burnt n crispy, but you get the idea.

The shit you guys keep pulling around here isnt just fucking rude, it is down right annoying....grow up already.

Originally posted by Hrimnir

Originally posted by eayes

I don't really care, hadn't planned on buying items from the RMAH.

The problem if you havent noticed is all the stuff thats worth buying is not on the regular gold AH because everyone thinks they're gonna make bookoo bucks on the RMAH.  It was epic fail from the point it was an idea...

Well in an ideal world, maybe it would of been a good thing for those into it.

I am totally against cheats in a MMO. RMT IMO is a cheat. Pretty simple from where I am sitting.

Originally posted by darker70

yeah never trust a company after SOE,I think that is now more or less a gameing commandment and lesson learn't.

Yet your sig is about raising money for what? Six chimps on a davenport?

Wouldnt it sound better with an honest "never trust a company unless they are making something you want"?

I dont play those FPS, but I bet they found that content doesnt pay for itself, and better yet, those FPS addicts are lining up to give companies money. Pretty sad when a new game plus all the map packs is gonna run ya 110 bucks.

Although I gotta say I still like that pricing plan better than cash shops.

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

---

Originally posted by XAPGames
My estimation:

 

100 MMOs on kickstarter

• 1 makes it huge big.
• 9 make a profit after release and can continue development. 10 make it to release and struggle. 80 don't make it to release (not enough funding or management issues).

    Overall impact?  Minimal except in rare cases.   Savior of the genre?  One can only hope.

---

 

1 out of 100 being "huge" is "huge" in overestimation only.

Kickstarter is strongly supporting non-viable projects so chance that any decent game will come out of it is very very scarce...

 

Yeah I dont expect the repopulation to do any better than a MO or DF, but at least they are trying.

Originally posted by Greyhooff

BiowareEA policy rests on 3 fundamental pillars:

- Incompetence of its lead developers

- Dishonesty of its marketing

- Abuse of its own playerbase

Wow, Tera is crashing n burning, and you got time to nag once again?

When you want abuse of a playerbase, go talk with folks in STO some time. To quote Dennis Leary in The Ref "I know loan sharks that are more forgiving" than the way Cryptic treated those folks. BW is choir boys next to that. Hell NGE anyone? Once again, you call this game literally the anti christ vs its customers, and I sure am not seeing it.

I would say the PVE devs did all right. We need more content, but not many games can say they got that covered. PVP devs are on their own. They sure as hell kicked us a lot more PVE than a normal game, costing the same price, has at launch. So bang for the buck is there.

Dishonesty of marketing? I would say the PVE is exactly what I was expecting. The PVP screwed the pooch, and you will never hear me argue it. However the focus was always to be in the story, and they didnt sugar coat how play revolved around it.

I have no idea what gives you such a hard on for TOR that you gotta spam these forums, but it must chap your ass this game is sitting in a better position than Tera, which has technically been out for a full yr now. Personally I wish you would be banned until your claim of "Game is now below 200k subs" is substantiated, but alas any fool can shoot off made up facts around here.

Originally posted by Scypheroth

i have to agree the Age of Wushu game looks like shit...but black gold looks worst...take this screen shot for instance...look at the skill buttons on the bottom...look familliar? Copyright infringment much? NOW u can TRULY call it a wow Clone...hell they stole the dam Warrior talent icons lolz

Whatever game that is has nice GFX IMO.

Originally posted by JC-Smith

I did want to chime on on MMOs and budget size. Because most MMOs cost millions of dollars, and some go much, much further than that, I think there are some misconceptions.

Licensing generally eats up a reasonable size of your initial budget. Up until a couple of years ago you were looking at $300-750,000 for your engine, then all the little extras adding up, $10k for Speedtree, etc. Things changed significantly in that regard in recent years. You have MMO specific engines like Hero Engine and Big World which are now available for a low up front cost (or free in the case of Hero's most recent license agreement) while owing backend royalties. Unreal Engine, CryEngine and Unity are not MMO specific, but has similar license deals now. This simply was not an option previously. This really forced developers to get some backing before doing anything.

Budgets then inflate based on office space and the number of employees. Typically the game developers get some funding from a publisher (an advance that must be paid back later, forfeiture of creative control, deadlines, in exchange for an up front investment) or from a venture capitolist. They then hire on each of their employees, rent an office, etc. If you take a game with a 600 man staff (ala TOR) and factor in a $4000 a month salary on average, your talking about $2.4 million a month or nearly $29 million a year, on salary alone.

Most MMOs don't have anywhere near that team size though. And many indie MMOs forego any salary until after a game launches. Programming wise if you develop generated or player created content systems, you won't need as many programmers or content people. What you will need though is an art team. And that's where things can get really expensive for an indie MMO. Generally they have some artists working in their spare time or outsource to affordable contractors (often in Asia). That's where Kickstarter can really be beneficial to these smaller games. Having some extra money during development can significantly boost their production quality, and we all know that a good launch makes a world of difference for an MMO. MMOs that launch well have a good shot of a long and prosperous life span. Those that start poorly, rarely ever make a strong recovery. I think that's where we'll see the biggest gains for indie MMOs through Kickstarter. They'll have a little extra budget that they can spend bringing in people to boost up the polish aspects where they often are most lacking as compared to larger studios.

I do think that Kickstarter will bring more innovation to the MMO scene, as indies are more likely to try radically different ideas than a large publisher would be. I'm sure we'll see some games crash and burn along the way. And we may not see mainstream acceptance for Kickstarter until it produces a great title. I don't see how it's a bad thing though in any way. If people don't feel safe spending money in it, or don't see the reason for it, simply don't use it.

Well first off, I believe you are one of the Devs working on the Repopulation, so it is funny to hear your claim that making player creatd content systems actually requires less of a team. If you ever listened to the general MMO sandbox fan around here, they would claim a sandbox costs more to make.

Second off....it is a bit shifty IMO to be propping up the system you aim to use(Kickstarter), and not at least identify yourself.

Third off....I will wish ya luck on your venture. I can respect someone actually trying to make something they want, vs being forced to endure constant whining cause the world doesnt work how you wish. I mean this with the utmost sincerity.

Originally posted by NBlitz
Now if people (for who this game is totally NOT their cup of tea) would stop using the "horrendous" levelling as a (poor) excuse to bash the game...

There will be folks that come into the Tera forums to bash this game regarless if it is the best thing since sliced bread. It is the way this site rolls.....idiots determined to troll game forums even though folks are playing them.

Constructive criticism is always a good thing. Being a spamming jack ass is a whole nother thing. My only advice is to be better than they are.

As far as adjustments in OP, tuning shit isnt always a bad thing. No clue in this case.