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All Posts by Gibbonici

All Posts by Gibbonici

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I am sorry
General Discussion « Guild Wars 2
1/08/14 11:53:35 AM
Originally posted by zasten

note: I still play, but only until I find a replacement that actually lives up to the hype!

The hype is always, always BS.

Originally posted by drwebs

 7 days to die or The Dead Linger would be better "zombie" games to talk about.  They are not lame fetch and kill X number of Y quest games. 

How much of SoD have you played? I have to ask because on my playthrough I didn't get any of those missions.

 

 

Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Gibbonici

I'm not assuming anything, I'm talking about personal experience. All the semantic arguments in the world aren't going to change my experience of dozens of games over a dozen or so years. That SWG example is just one example of one aspect of what I'm talking about and I'm not going to argue the toss over it. 

Bottom line is this - more varieties of interpendence is good, one kind of interdepence isn't, but it's still better than none. All I want to see is an MMO that's opens up opportunities for more varied viable groups. In too many games too many classes are basically window dressing in groups, and as I said in my first post on this thread, I think this is why so many people solo now - it's the only way to feel like you're using more of your character's potential and getting some challenge out of the game.

You are assuming.  You're making an assumption that only your prior experience is relevant -- that no other possibilities could exist.

Here, I'll paint a very precise picture:

  • A MMORPG has many classes which fill one of three roles (DPS/heal/tank)
  • At least one spec for each class can solo
    • these specs include light mitigation and healing abilities
  • Some solo content is brutally challenging.  An example mob:
    • Mobs are capped at a certain number of players, so nobody can help you kill a solo mob in any way.
    • Perfect interrupt timing is required: The monster has a 100% self-heal on a 0.5 sec timer.
    • Near-perfect DPS rotation is required:  The monster enrages at 60 seconds, and a perfect rotation will kill it in 58 seconds (minus some time allotted to use healing/mitigation abilities.)
    • Perfect self-heal timing is required.  The monster will automatically interrupt your self heal except when he (rarely) casts a very long nuke at you -- you must use those brief windows to heal, or die from lack of health.
    • Perfect tanking cooldown use is required.  The monster has an ability which deals 100% of your max HP in base damage, and you must use your tank cooldowns in succession to mitigate the damage each time it comes in.
The above mob is brutally challenging.
 
This answers your earlier question of how a game can be challenging even though one person can do it all themselves.  The possibility exists, even if it's outside your experience (I still think it's probably within your gaming experience -- after all, most gamers have experienced challenging solo gameplay, and many games where you experience that have the same "progress towards goals" and "mitigate problems" traits which you were calling the trinity.)
 
As for semantics, a semantic discussion is necessary when someone says "up is down" and you have to painstakingly explain basic definitions to them. (Except instead of up you said "the trinity" and instead of down it was generalist solo play.)
 
I'd prefer to avoid semantics too, but when someone uses words incorrectly we have to waste time defining them.  It's tedious.  Let's avoid it.

As for your closing bit, it's fine to want new types of gameplay.  Everyone does.  (And wanting new types of gameplay doesn't conflict with being able to enjoy existing types of gameplay (the trinity) done in refreshing ways.)  I suppose I'd even concede there are ways to have "more variety" in groups, although if you have 4+ types of roles you need some pretty serious solutions in place to address how much harder it will be to form a group.

As I said, I'm not arguing the toss over one example of one aspect of what I'm saying.

 

The highlighted bit is pretty much my point - we need new types of gameplay. We also need new ways to play in groups because many games have been too trinity heavy and seem to have forgotten the nuanced potential of their own classes. Just to make it clear, I'm not against the trinity as such - a lot of players get a lot out of that gameplay and there's nothing wrong with that. It's just that a lot of other players get nothing out of it (because their favourite classes don't have much to add to it) and have little alternative but to solo or just quit MMOs altogether.

 

And I'm not talking about needing 4+ roles to form a group. That's the total opposite of my point. Instead of not being able to group effectively when you can't find a tank or a healer, how much better would it be if equally viable and effective teams could be made out of other combinations (without it just becoming a zerg)? This can't be done just by designing classes, it also needs a different kind of AI with different factors that determine its behaviour.

 

What if morale was a significant factor in the way the AI behaved (and perhaps even in how characters worked in combat)? And by morale I don't just mean in terms of a bonus to damage or whatever, I mean in terms of actual behaviour. What if flanking had a bearing on combat? What if surprise did? What if mobs organised themselves into formations depending on the way the fight was going? What if different types of armour had better or worse mitigation against certain weapons? There are loads of factors that could open up new combat and group dynamics, and even create opportunities for whole new classes.

 

Do me a favour; don't zero in on one or two of these ideas as if they represent everything I'm trying to say. Just think about it in general terms. I'm pretty sure you could think of loads of other factors that could mix up MMO dynamics for the better. All of the above is done in other types of games, why not MMOs? What would you or anyone else have against it?

Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Gibbonici

It says everything about the trinity. If one person can manage a full trinity set up with controllable pets, how is it challenging to split that across three roles and multiple players? 

The SWG example I used was simply to illustrate how simplistic straight trinity gameplay actually is. The second example I gave, of the old DAOC Scout duo I played in, was there to show how things could be if MMOs weren't so fixated on the trinity at the expense of all other possible class interdependencies.

Not that DAOC had it down, it was just that it was loosely designed enough to allow for other styles of group gameplay. Too many modern MMOs are too tightly designed around the trinity group play, and I think that's one of the reasons that gamers are tiring of MMOs. Group play is the area that has seen the least innovation in MMOs and it has become even more formulaic and less challenging (and therefore less interesting) over the past few years. 

Let's try this again:

  1. What you're describing is not the trinity.  The trinity requires grouping, and it requires specialization.  You're describing a solo generalist.  Not the trinity.
  2. What  you're describing is the core traits of any game: progressing towards a goal (dealing damage, DPS), mitigating problems (damage mitigation, tanking), and recovery (which is really just another form of problem mitigation; CC is yet another form of problem mitigation.)
    • None of these traits make a game easy/hard or shallow/deep.
    • Only the specific balance of abilities and monsters determines that.
  3. Given that, it's possible for a class which can "do everything" to experience incredibly challenging solo fights.
    • It all depends on how things are balanced -- not on whether you can do everything yourself (you can always do everything, if you can solo a mob.)
    • So what you've done is provided an example of a too-easy game, and made the mistake of assuming that it's the ability to "do everything" that made it easy -- when it fact that's not the case.  The thing that made it easy was that it was balanced to be easy.  That's it.

I'm not assuming anything, I'm talking about personal experience. All the semantic arguments in the world aren't going to change my experience of dozens of games over a dozen or so years. That SWG example is just one example of one aspect of what I'm talking about and I'm not going to argue the toss over it.

 

Bottom line is this - more varieties of interpendence is good, one kind of interdepence isn't, but it's still better than none. All I want to see is an MMO that's opens up opportunities for more varied viable groups. In too many games too many classes are basically window dressing in groups, and as I said in my first post on this thread, I think this is why so many people solo now - it's the only way to feel like you're using more of your character's potential and getting some challenge out of the game.

Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Gibbonici

Now you may say that this set-up makes it hypocritcal of me to say bad things about the trinity, given that I had a full trinity setup all of my own. But think about it - if one player can play the whole trinity himself, what does that say about the trinity? It's not difficult, it's not challenging and in terms of what a player is capable of it's not even necessary.

Er, it actually doesn't say anything about the trinity.

  • The trinity is player specialization in groups.
  • You described a generalist soloing.
  • So what you described wasn't the trinity.
  • ...and actually could be construed as being the exact opposite of the trinity.

The very nature of soloing assumes you're going to be able to mitigate damage (tank), DPS, and/or heal enough on your own to survive solo fights.  So it's not automatically bad for a single class to be able to do everything while soloing -- that's just the nature of soloing!

The only thing that's bad is if a game's systems are so shallow that it's not ever challenging.  But that has more to do with whether a game offers challenging solo gameplay at all (virtually all MMORPGs don't, and it's a missed opportunity.)  It isn't related to a discussion on trinity at all really.

It says everything about the trinity. If one person can manage a full trinity set up with controllable pets, how is it challenging to split that across three roles and multiple players? 

The SWG example I used was simply to illustrate how simplistic straight trinity gameplay actually is. The second example I gave, of the old DAOC Scout duo I played in, was there to show how things could be if MMOs weren't so fixated on the trinity at the expense of all other possible class interdependencies.

Not that DAOC had it down, it was just that it was loosely designed enough to allow for other styles of group gameplay. Too many modern MMOs are too tightly designed around the trinity group play, and I think that's one of the reasons that gamers are tiring of MMOs. Group play is the area that has seen the least innovation in MMOs and it has become even more formulaic and less challenging (and therefore less interesting) over the past few years.

 

 

Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Rydeson

Good luck with a range class when there is no pet or other person to grab the attention of the mob..  :)  Have you ever tried playing a range class in PvP .. ONE on ONE. with no pets or other cc skills?  Let me know how that works out

Holy cow.

It has finally sunk in that you really don't know anything outside of EQ and WOW.  You really have never played Ultima Online, Lineage 2, Asheron's Call, Aion, Age of Conan, Fallen Earth, Vanguard, Everquest 2, or any other MMO? You really are unaware that an archer class can be played without a pet? 

And we're talking about the trinity, so what does PvP have to do with it... or do you really not know that people don't use taunt in PVP in most MMOs?

I genuinely thought you were just trying to be difficult, but you've now made it very clear the issue is simply that you have no clue what you are talking about.

KEEP trying to fool yourself and others.. We're not biting.. YOU can't excuse the use of Range and then bad mouth the trinity role play.. The only reason why range classes work is because normally the mob is on SOMEONE ELSE.. DUH..  Have a great day

Let me put some personal perspective on this. Like Loktofeit I usually play hunter/ranger characters, and straight trinity gameplay just sends me to sleep.

 

In SWG I had a rifle-based Master Ranger/Creature Handler. I had two bioengineered Narglatches, one specced to tank, the other as a fast moving off-tank. I also had a droid that was built to harvest resources from my kills and drop medkits on the Narglatches whenever necessary. It was a huge amount of fun and the gameplay offered a decent level of in-the-moment challenge.

 

Now you may say that this set-up makes it hypocritcal of me to say bad things about the trinity, given that I had a full trinity setup all of my own. But think about it - if one player can play the whole trinity himself, what does that say about the trinity? It's not difficult, it's not challenging and in terms of what a player is capable of it's not even necessary.

 

The only reason that the trinity is needed is because most MMOs don't let players do it all themselves.  Setting your character to assist the tank and then spamming the same handful of attacks to maximise damage while keeping aggro low isn't fun. It isn't exciting and it certainly isn't challenging. It's barely even teamwork. I'll even go out on a limb and say that the trinity is some of the most dumbed-down gameplay you'll find in any genre of videogames. WOW's meter add-on gameplay has been proving this for years.

 

In DAOC I played an Albion Scout (no pet) and for a few months I teamed with another Scout player. We died a lot to start with but over that time we worked out tactics that were every bit as effective (though not as efficient time-wise) as a standard trinity group. It was incredibly challenging reaching that point, and even at our peak it could all go horribly wrong (we even worked out contingencies for when one of us missed two shots on the trot, which was when things would fail without them), but it took a hell of a lot of discipline and moment-to-moment observation of mobs and each other to pull it off.

 

Since WOW it's been rare that different classes have been able to work out dependencies between themselves like this; these days it's just  bog standard, trinity faceroll rubbish or, if you're "lucky", equally rubbish zerging. The massive irony is that 10 or 15 years ago or whatever it was, the trinity was emergent gameplay but todays games are designed around it. It is completely back to front. Given how big MMOs are and how long they are supposed to keep their players interested, they absolutely need to provide opportunities for players to find their own ways of meeting the games' challenges, and that means a more dynamic AI and more flexibly designed classes that can and must cooperate in many different ways to beat it.

 

Designing games around the trinity as the only way to succeed is proving to be a dead-end, as is throwing away the trinity altogether along with all other potential interdependencies. This should be self-evident by now.

 

If MMOs are to survive the decline they're in, their designers really, really need to start thinking outside the box. And so do their players.

My problem with the trinity is that it's become the *only* interdependency between characters, and has made MMOs that are built around it tedious.

 

I'd even go as far as to say that the trinity is what has made a lot of people prefer soloing to grouping, simply because soloing can often demand more thought over how you approach a fight than steamrolling in with a trinity group. That depends a lot on the game of course, as many seem to be taking the point of soloing away by making it too easy.

 

Where games like GW2 went wrong is in just dumping the trinity without working dependencies in elsewhere. I think the way forward isn't dropping the trinity altogether but developing an AI and character skills to create new and more interesting ways of characters working together.

Originally posted by Mothanos

People will quit asap with advanced AI.
If carebears expect this then join a few pvp matches na dlets see how you love advanced AI.

Its so overated, with no healers you are going to die so much that the any game that provides this advanced AI will be as frustrated as sucking at PvP.
Unless you like to die alot and spend all your cash to repair your gear.

Did no care to vote, stupid poll if you ask me.
maybe add challeging AI ? not faceroll but inbetween ?

PvP is only partly about intelligent play. It's as much about super-stacked builds with the strongest kill powers as it is about in-the-moment player skill, and perhaps more so. I love a bit of PvP but I don't have any allusions about it being particularly skill-based, even when I win.

 

PvE mobs with decent AI wouldn't be min-maxed monsters built purely to kill, they'd be built to be interesting and rounded enemies with strengths and weaknesses. You know, balanced.

 

You're right about the poll though, I didn't vote either.

Originally posted by rutaq
Originally posted by Drakynn
I sort of agree with this.In most cases of MMORPG  PvP it still just learning a set set of responses to the class attacking you and their movement,most people don't act any smarter than mobs.It the rare moments of brilliance from a very few that is special in PvP and distinguishes it from PvE.

PvE does have scripted encounters to introduce something new, a new attack, new use of environment,etc...   but since the AI is sooo primitive it becomes very repetitive and predictable after running through the same a fight a couple times.   The predictability is so engrained in PvE play that new players are often told to go watch the YouTube video of a fight before joining the group.

PvP is centered around a real human player that can adapt and not just follow a set script and player has something mobs don't....   motivation to Win.  

I am sorry that you have had such a sheltered PvP experience that you rarely encountered players that weren't smarter than mobs, just keep trying different MMOs and I suggest finding on that also has a bit more Open World or Sieging which helps to mix things us let numbers, terrain and strategy have more impact than a simple 1 on 1 duel or stagnant and restrictive Battleground.

PvP in MMOs has always been a bit lame due to the massive disparity between character builds. Don't get me wrong, I like a bit of PvP from time to time, mostly battleground type stuff where real-world skills like organisation and leadership play a part, but the actual player vs player bit has less to do with in-the-moment skill and more to do with whose character has the best spreadsheet working behind the scenes. Generally though, if I want PvP I'll play Red Orchestra or something.

 

What I like in MMOs is immersion. I like to feel like I'm in a world that feels real - that's what the escapism of it is all about. It's got to the point now where standard MMO AI is holding that immersion back. I want to see a game where the mobs behave in as realistic a way as the rivers flow and the breeze sways the grass in MMO worlds. I don't want mobs that have min-maxed, stat-stacked builds and a mish-mash of skills that are selected to kill rather than create an interesting and rounded enemy. 

Originally posted by Kuppa
Originally posted by r0guy
Originally posted by Gibbonici
Originally posted by Kuppa

I think people underestimate how hard is it to have AI that simulates an actual player or something that even comes close.

No MMO has yet come close to the AI in the original Half Life, where enemies can flank and outflank (no traditional tanking), where they can't be drawn into obvious kill zones (no traditional pulling) and where they can actually be outwitted by moving from your last known position while hidden (whole load of new emergent tactics). Sure, Half Life didn't simulate actual players, but it did an extremely good job of simulating real-world tactics in a game.

Yup, just to add to your point this is what modders can come up with today:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDZYmUNYYVI&list=HL1375889405

 

It's not because CoD took 20 steps back and that MMORPGs have always been horribly complacent with their AI, that something that simulates real life is pure science fiction

It's cool, but nothing even remotely close to real life. Progress can be made and has been made, it's players expectations that is the problem sometimes.

I don't think simulating players is a good thing for MMOs anyway, because players don't behave in realistic ways when they're in a game and MMOs are (or were at one time) supposed to offer a simulated world.

 

All I've wanted from an MMO for years is that sudden, awful feeling that the mobs have gained the upper hand and my group and I have to play on the fly, as a team, to win it back. That used to happen in CoX occasionally, but that was more down to mob numbers and our recklessness than anything the AI did. It's a fantastic feeling though, especially when your team pulls it back.

 

In recent years MMOs seem to be designed to make players feel uber rather than forcing them to be uber. It should always come down to how you play rather than the silly numbers games that they've become, but that doesn't fit with the Skinner Box model of recent years.

Originally posted by Kuppa

I think people underestimate how hard is it to have AI that simulates an actual player or something that even comes close.

No MMO has yet come close to the AI in the original Half Life, where enemies can flank and outflank (no traditional tanking), where they can't be drawn into obvious kill zones (no traditional pulling) and where they can actually be outwitted by moving from your last known position while hidden (whole load of new emergent tactics). Sure, Half Life didn't simulate actual players, but it did an extremely good job of simulating real-world tactics in a game.

 

I don't know if EQN will live up to it's own hype regarding its AI, but if it does combat will be fundamentally different from the standard tank and spank, rinse and repeat tedium that MMOs have become. Instead of reaching for abstract, stylised MMO tactics, players will have to adapt to more real-world tactics and formations. Regarding the perfectly understandable fear that it'll be a DPS zergathon without traditional tanking, that will only be true if the AI doesn't have counter tactics for the zerg. And there *are* counter tactics for the zerg - the whole history of human warfare has developed around it, so there's plenty for the AI designers to work from.

 

If EQN does pull this off (I remain healthily sceptical) then it's going to shake a lot of players out of their comfort zones, and this is exactly what MMOs need.

Originally posted by aspekx
Originally posted by Wizardry

when me and my friends get a pickup football game or hockey game together,we don't contemplate on what doesn't work good enough,we just enjoy getting out and playing.We don't care if we score touchdowns every time we get the ball,it is just fun to hangout and play.I do not get that same feeling in games,everyone seems in a rush.

+1 Wisdom

This is exactly it.

 

I've played MMOs for more years than I can remember, might 12 might be 15. I dunno. In all that time I can safely say that I don't remember a single achievement I made in any of those games. Reaching level cap, beating epic bosses, conquering dungeons, winning PvP battles - none of it. It's all blah on top of blah.

 

What I do remember are the laughs, banter and shared sense of fun and adventure with other players. All of my standout moments in MMOs have been that.

 

The sad thing about the last few years worth of MMOs is that they get in the way of all that goods stuff. They make efficient levelling and paced loot advancement the whole game, and make it impossible to sit around a camp fire on a lonely mesa with a few friends and just shoot the shyit.

 

I'm not saying there shouldn't be all the gamey stuff that they're giving us now, just that there needs to be a balance and that balance isn't there anymore. Quest hubs, short travel times, dungeon finders, insta-group tools, mobs everywhere... all of these things have taken from MMOs the very thing that made them awesome to start with.

 

That simplest of things - having fun with your mates in a big virtual world.

 
Originally posted by Agent_Joseph
Originally posted by MadDemon64
Originally posted by Agent_Joseph

STO is hard core asian grind crap game but it is still very popular coz it is Star Trek mmo.

Noticed ,some peoples mentioned 3th faction,STO is 2 faction game it is burn in stone now,Romulans are not faction it is only playable species on KDF/Fed side.

 

1.  STO is made by an American company.  By definition of "asian grind game", that makes it impossible to be an asian grind game.

2.  Every game has grind, even WoW.  Get over it.

3.  There is indeed a third faction being introduced.  This has already been established a while ago.  Before this, Romulans have not been a playable species in STO.  People could create a facimile of Romulans in the character creation, but they will not be a playable species until the expansion.  Please pay attention to the dev blogs if you are going to try to post a statement that is easily proven false by searching them so you can avoid doing so and damaging your argument.

oh yeah ,  who care is it american company if gameplay concept is asian  hard core grind concept(after Season 5,before game concept was different) 

 

 

I have to wonder if you've ever played an Asian grinder if you think STO is like one.

 

Originally posted by Dexter2010
Originally posted by epiyonrpg

                  - It's truly not the game that is boring, it is yourself. You could have an infinite amount of fun in a video game, doesn't matter how bad it is, it just depends on how you interpret it yourself. Boring game is not boring, gamer is bored.

[mod edit]

Are you a dev?? You're logic applies to teaspoons too. You can eat with them, shovel sand, measure sugar, spread peanut butter., throw 'em.....wheeeeeee! Ima sub one for $20/month!

So you're complaining about complaining? Blah blah blah...........when you were young, you had to walk uphill to school in 10 feet of snow, then uphill again to get home............

If you don't like games, don't play games. There's loads of other things to do out there. Take some responsibility for your own free time, stop demanding deogame developers to do it for you.

 

 

Originally posted by fivoroth
Originally posted by cura
Originally posted by epiyonrpg

                     - It's truly not the game that is boring, it is yourself. You could have an infinite amount of fun in a video game, doesn't matter how bad it is, it just depends on how you interpret it yourself. Boring game is not boring, gamer is bored.

 .

Strange becouse i dont have this problem with books. I dont remember when i read a book that bore me to death like most games. 

The problem i see is your low standards. You said games criticism disgusts you. I say people like you who accept medicority disugust me.

 If most games bore you, then don't play? If games are boring for you, maybe, just maybe, you don't like playing games? But you say you enjoyed games in the past? Well, then you have moved past games and so they are no longer fun. It is THIS simple. It is overcritical jaded old school "gamers" like you who are the root problem of all this QQ.

I agree with you OP! I think the problem might be that these "30+" old school gamers have just got bored of games in general. And they haven't realised that this happens to a lot of people. As people get older, they get bored of playing games.

Totally agree with this. I don't really see myself as a gamer much anymore because games just don't do it for me now. For years I was disappointed with new releases that didn't give me what I got from them before and in the end it dawned on me that it's not the games as much as it's me. And I'm not just talking about MMOs, it's all games. I still play them from time to time but only for an hour or so before I get bored.

 

There's a whole world of cool stuff out there, if games ain't doing it for you give it a go. You might be surprised how much more fun riding a bike down a hill is compared to key-spamming a room full of pretend baddies can be. Stop moaning that game companies don't entertain you anymore and take some responsibility for your own leisure time.

 

Originally posted by Stug

As this thread is about positive player testimiony :

"

Gibbonici 12 hours ago 

I love this game. Sure the graphics aren't the best, the controls can be a bit tricky at first and the learning curve is fairly steep, but you absolutely will not find a more immersive, more epic and more intense WW2 game out there. Or any kind of war game for that matter.

I've got so many memories from my time in this game - paradrops over contested towns, being the only man alive out of a mission of 25 to make it into a German held town, being hopelessly outnumbered in Zeebrugge yet somehow holding on for 3 hours, being pinned down in the centre of Wavre in Belgium and seeing "RAF inbound Wavre" come up on chat to cheers over TS followed by swearing when "ETA 15 minutes" followed it.

Try it, stick with it through the learning curve (2 weeks ought to do it) and it will reward you with some of the best gaming moments you will ever have. And I say that as someone who's been gaming since the start of it all.

Only reason I don't play it now is that it took up way too much of my time!"

 

 

 

Heh, that's me! I just came here to see how the game was going before hitting up the free to play thing for a few days.

Sounds good so far, but don't all these games this far ahead of release? If it's half as good as Day Z was in the early days I'll probably pick it up, but it's the Day Z standalone I'm really interested in.

WvW...help me understand
PvP « Guild Wars 2
10/03/12 4:28:03 PM

People say it's all down to organised guilds but it's really not. In the end it's a numbers game. Whichever server can raise the most players over every 24 hour period will win, it's as simple as that.

 

I'm on a relatively small server, we rarely have queues and have no meaningful night coverage which means we get dominated by any server that can attack at night when we can't defend and who can outman us during peak. Actually I say that, but we're starting to get pretty good at being outnumbered and have got to the point where we usually win in standing fights against groups up to twice our own number. There's a knack to it which I think only regularly outnumbered servers will have at this stage and I'm not going to share it here.

This week's match-up was going pretty well for us, we fought from a terrible last place on Saturday to a point where we could push for first place within a couple of days. Trouble is, the currently winning server ran two all-nighters (I think they may have members from another time-zone), capped all four WvW maps and opened up an 80,000 point lead which is unassailable. They may do the same again tonight.

It's down to the way that points are scored and I'm mostly OK with it for now, but I really hate the effect it has on people on our server and on others who get rolled the same way. No one likes losing but losing at times when you can't defend due to real life requirements naturally saps the will to participate in a lot of people, and I don't blame them for losing interest.

Originally posted by sr7olsniper
Originally posted by lilHeala

I wonder why you wonder because in no way x-fire is representative for the mmo community's opinion. In most games where I mentioned to my guilds that I was an xfire the majority didn't even know what it was and those that did were not using it.

If you're an active member in that community I can understand you might want to know how your fellow members think about it, but then you would already know how to find those figures.

What they are look for is trends. Of course Xfire or Raptor are not really representative of the overall community. But they are an somewhat ok pool of people from different ages to give you an overall idea of the game. Mind you that most of the people are playing LoL but also other games are up on the chain and you can use those numbers to relate it to popularity. YOu wont find actual subs numbers but it is evident that if the Xfire or Raptor numbers diminish then you can extrapolate 2 things, either the Xfire community left Gw2 (highly unlikely), or that the game is in deed seeing less people lpaying it. 

Think about how Xfire gathers its data and what it actually measures. Then think about what you said in the orange bit.

Originally posted by krakra70
Just looking at the chart at http://beta.xfire.com/games/gw2 it's easy to see that gw2's population is shrinking very quickly. And the best is yet to come (MoP).

That's nonsense. All it shows is that players are playing fewer hours. There is no correlation with population at all.

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