What confuses me is the idea that having PC Crews goes against soloing the game.  We're talking about a teaming mechanic, not a mandatory way to play the game.  I think you should be able team up, if you choose at level 1, and that you should have the option to be on someone's ship as you do it.  It has nothing to do with requiring players to be on a teamship, and I think, even for raids, that its a bad idea, a really bad gate for content.  If soloers can't play teamship content and teamships can't play soloer content it makes both, especially teamships, less attractive.

A less intrusive mechanic would be to allow players to team by joining another player's ship, as opposed to having only the option to fly their ships in a squadron.

Again, there's this perception that having PC Crews means having a group will be required and that solo will not be an option, but not only is it a bad assumption, I really don't understand where it comes from.

I presume that's the MMO: Pirates of the Burning Sea

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Originally posted by Hagonbok

Originally posted by Ghimpi

Player crewed ships worked for 2 decades now in Mu* based games.

Yes, and we all know how popular they were. /sarcasmoff

 

Fact is, every game that has tried to introduce too much "sandbox" has been a major fail. Even UO started to change from being too "sanboxish" eventually. SWG was a major fail of epic proportions, and the list goes on. The games today that are sandbox, like A Tale in the Desert for instance, sit with miniscule populations even though they're very well crafted games.

 

You're actually daring Cryptic to make a game that will fail within a year.

Unfortunately for your "Facts", they are wrong. Completely wrong. Lets take WoW out of this comparison as it is an by far an exception.  Lets compare some of the pay to play games shall we?

UO: Slightly less popular than EQ but still very popular until EA ruined it.

SWG: Had over 300k stable subscribers until SOE ruined it.

Eve Online: Has over 250k subscribers and continues to grow to this day.

Now lets look at some of those "thriving" non-sandbox games:

WAR: Population dropped well under said sandbox games.

AoC: Population dwindling, although fans claim it is on the rise again

LotR: What, 100k subscribers tops? 

In fact, while you like to claim that every sandbox game was an "Epic failure", the only non-sandbox pay to play games that are more successful than the few sandboxes created are WoW, the Lineages, and the original EQ. Currently an incredibly niche sandbox game holds the number 3 spot for most subscribed, and that is Eve. I love sandboxes and don't really care for Eve. Now just imagine if there was a good sandbox out that actually appealed to all of the sandbox fans. I'm guessing it would give the lineages a run for their money.

<Applauds>

Even with this great discussion, there's really no need for PC Crews to equal a massive sandbox.  Missions, trade and etc could still be extremely structured and story ridden, but the in-ship activities could be sandbox-like.

The Difference:

In a PC Crew situation, players can interact as separate entities on their own starships, or collude to form a single entity within a single starship.  In the latter case, no one expendable, and everyone is necessary, not just the healer or the tank.  Everyone is also more specialized... not everyone is attacking to be useful, for instance.  Besides, in this IP, there aren't healer ships and tanking ships, so you limit your class versatility... however within the ship there are classes that mitigate damage (Tactical, Helm) and there are classes that heal damage (Engineering, Medical).  So you get more versatility in a PC Crew situation when it comes to teaming, unless you force EQ classes onto Star Trek ship classes, which would be absurd, but that's what they have to do without PC Crews.

On top of that, in a PC Crew situation, multiple PC Crew ships can team up, meaning you get the separate entity teamwork as well as the single entity teamwork... you get something truly layered.  Something epic.  Every mutli-ship encounter can require raid like skill, and even offer similar rewards.

Originally posted by ktanner3

Originally posted by Cola

Ensign Ricky Logs in.

Ensign Ricky dosnt have a player crew because everyone is a captain and has some magical crew.

Ensign Ricky can not walk around his ship.

Ensign Ricky can not decorate his ship to his personal touch because there are no interiors.

Ensign Ricky realizes he is paying 14.95 a month for a space shooter.

Ensign Ricky hits /cancel

 

 

 

Here's what the game is like when folks like you get your way...

Ensign Ricky Logs in

Ensign Ricky can't play because the captain and first officer is over at Quark's gambling

Ensign Ricky is tired of listening to the Lt. at OPS talking about his personal life. He'd REALLY prefer exploring the Galaxy.

Ensign Ricky can't do anything but sit on the bridge, listen to a LT's social life and admire the scenery

Ensign Ricky realizes he is paying 14.95 for a space sim

Ensign Ricky hits/cancel

Here's what the game looks like when people give up myopic thinking and propaganda:

Ensign Ricky Logs in

Ensign Ricky flies around in his runabout with his 2 NPC Cadets to his hearts content, taking missions, exploring the galaxy and levelling up.

Ensign Ricky meets Cpt. Bill at Deep Space 8. 

Ensign Ricky and Cpt. Bill form a crew and Ricky leaves his Runabout at DS8. Ensign Ricky is a Tactical Class so he takes the tactical station.

Ensign Ricky and Cpt. Bill go blow some stuff up that Ricky has never seen before.

Cpt. Bill goes linkdead.  Ensign Ricky is on a ship that he can't do anything on.

Ensign Ricky's runabout arrives 45 seconds later. Ensign Ricky

Ensign Ricky realizes that he's paying $15 for an MMO that's both fun and not EQ in space.

Ensign Ricky can't shut his mouth about how awesome and different the game is and recruits five people.

It's really very simple.  PC Crews = teaming, not a replacement for solo play.

Originally posted by severius

Here are some of the issues with player run crews:

1. Time
   1. The idea of guilds is nice, but guilds do not always play 100% of the time together.
   2. With a guild being in charge, how are you going to make sure that the Nurse Ratchet's of the game actually can play whenever the heck they want to?
   3. Forced grouping sucks.
      1. Yes this is an mmo, but there are times when workshifts change, life changes and the only time a person can get a chance to play is between let's say 3:15am and 4:15am.  You can not expect a game to have a healthy community if people HAVE to wait around to get accepted to some jackholes crew
2. Star Trek is a MILITARY organization
   1. Yes, their primary mission is exploration and they have full science vessels etc but its a military organization
   2. In order to have effective bridge crews, ship crews, there is a great amount of training
      1. If you think its that easy, join the Navy of your respective countries and find out exactly how hard a job it is
   3. Yes it is a TV Show however it is written to replicate the above points
      1. You are not going to get the skill and attention of players found in the tv shows and in actual navies.  People have family, friends, tv, phone, IM, etc etc etc, all of which serves as a distraction to playing.  I know I do not want to have to sit through whatever bs because Joe's frickin kid needs to have its diaper changed right now lol.
3. Logistics Logistics Logistics
   1. In order to make it worthwhile for someone to play nurse rand, 3rd Bosun's Mate Smitty, or Janitorial serviceman Adams they would have to create enough content to satisfy all of those people.  Sure the helmsman, Captain and science officer have lots to do but everyone else gets to sit with their thumbs up their asses in a $15 (or w/e monthly fee they come up with) a month chat room.
   2. A ship like the Enterprise E had well over a thousand people on board, if we narrowed it down to 100, or even 50, hell 10, they have to create 10 full games and tie them all in together.

Doesn't seem wise to presume ignorance on the opponent's part. Most people I used to talk with about PC Crews understood these concerns and addressed them, and others. Most of them come from them come from a misunderstanding of what is needed for Player Crews. Simulation, for instance, is not needed.

1) Time

Answer: Player crews are optional. You still have your own ship and your own NPC crew that you run around with. When you team with someone, you have the option of teaming ships, or joining their crew temporarily, or on a long term basis (guild). At any time you can call your ship and vamoose.

2) Military Organization

Answer: The same training is needed to play a Starship captain, as is needed to play a Starship helmsman as is needed to play a human paladin. Players do not have to be as skilled as their characters. They just need a UI. Organization and command develops naturally, as it always has in MMOs.

If your concern is about how the game takes into account the chain of command, the answer is simple. All you need is a skill tree called 'Command' with various levels and flavours of three basic buffs: A) Give Target more powerful version of their own action. B) Give target one time use of action they haven't unlocked yet C) Give target pet commands for minor XP. Just that easily you have a 'captain' giving 'orders' but every player is actually free to do as they please. If the Helmsman is actually the one with the most skill, and is telling the Captain player what buffs to lay out, who cares?

3) Logistics

Answer: Construct the games in your MMO to be the specialties of each department. The truth is that every MMO has 5-10 subgames in it. There's a game for combat. A separate game for crafting. A separate game for resource gathering. A separate game for travel. A separate game for whatever else you want to add in as a system, whether it be guilds, raids, stores or what have you. Make sure that each of 5 departments is one of these games and you not only will have constantly engaged players, but less downtime than other MMOs for all players.

4) Perception

Issue: Rarely brought up due to lack of perspective, the bottom line is that MANY people will assume that PC Crews = Simulationist approach. This need not be so, but it is the perception.

Answer: Market the game as "2 ways to play" either galavanting through galaxy in your own ship with your NPC crew. Even though they're the same game, there are people who believe that they cannot possibly be.

With no further ado, a short version of how I would do it.

I) The Classes

Command. Engineering. Science. Tactical. Helm. These are the classes you pick at the beginning of the game, and each adds to the tail end of your initial tutorial. Each is fun in its own right. Many players may choose to be multiclass and switch back and forth, skillpoints permitting.

II) The Games of STX

Command/NPCs
Players not only command and collect NPCs like pets, getting more as they level up their command skills, they also can train them and specialize them for certain purposes. This also includes limited PC interactivity in the form of the afformentioned buffs. In short, the Command class is a pet/buff class that can 'equip' other players and equips self with high quality NPCs. Specialties include Diplomacy for unowned NPCs, Counseling for owned NPCs, Orders for PCs and Training for owned NPCs. All players have this at some level, and all increase some aspect of it as they increase rank, especially since in this version, NPCs are the 'currency' that is traded between players.

Engineering/Ship Upgrading
Players need to upgrade their ships, both with long term as well as plentiful short term upgrades. This means the Engineer is constantly moving about the ship, strategically from clicky to clicky configuring and reconfiguring stripped down 'systems' that grow more complicated with each higher level class of ship. They are, essentially a Buff/Crafting Class. Upgrading the ship is just a natural part of the game, but the system is deep enough for someone to specialize in it if they desire. Specialties line up with different aspects of upgrading your ship.

Science/Crafting
Players craft all manner of status effects with the pseudoscience found in the show. Science Officers collect 'science' in the form of datapads, specimens and sensor data and use it to craft a number of desired effects. With effects having counter effects, this means that finding an effect to disable an enemy ship or keep klingons from growing rabid can resemble a fast paced crafting 'puzzle' game. The essentially play a Crafting/Mage-like Support Class. Specialties include effect types, including 'human effects' for Medical officers. The robust state system provides flavour and exploration for all players and missions, of course.

Tactical/Combat
Players fight whenever they want. Whether diving into a contested zone, arranging any battle through the holodeck or taking a high risk mission, players fight. But Tactical class fights best, they are the DPS/tank class, whether it comes to queueing up the Starship's attacks, or accessing a greater number of ground combat moves, including melee, the Tactical class are the go to guys, providing the greatest threat, and thusly, often taking the most heat. Specialties include Ship weapons, Shields, Ground Phasers and Melee. Out of combat in a shared ship scenario the Tactical reloads all the weapon systems and is in danger of having nothing to do. This can be addressed with holodeck or other shipboard "downtime" activities or command duties, such as training NPCs.

Helm/Travel
Players have to position their ships in combat, and no one does that like the helmsman. With access to special manuevers as they level up, as well as dramatic free flight and constant need to take into account ships position and movements, the helmsman is, essentially a tank/anti-downtime class, who's main goal is to reduce the amount of damage taken by everyone, but can dramatically decrease the amount of time spent traveling from one place to another. Out of combat in a shared ship scenario the Helmsman optimizes the course, but is in danger of having nothing to do. This can be addressed with holodeck or other shipboard "downtime" activities or command duties such as equipping NPCs.

Summary:
So there you have it. Your economy, crafting, combat, travel and customization all delivered as different departments, even though they are all systems you'll be designing anyway. They were going to be gameplay anyway, and now, they're quintessential trek.

III) Rethinking Hubs

What starships are, essentially, are portable hubs. From them, you can get missions, you can buy most things, level up/train up/equip. In order to bump players into each other, you'll need the common meeting places, space stations where many ships come together for social fun, trading crew members and the like, as well as missions that purposefully bring players into the same space casually. Instead of a space with traffic for players to casually meet in, have an algorithm built into the mission system. So, in short, ships act as hubs for higher level players, lower level players have hubs at starports and all players come to starports and colonies to trade NPCs, and players are naturally driven together by the interconnectedness of the mission systems.

IV) Linkdead scenarios

We all know how difficult LD situations can be. If it happens to someone on your ship, its essentially the same thing as them choosing to leave on their own station. An NPC from one of the peripheral stations comes in and sits down.

For the case where the owner of a ship goes LD, his last orders stand, which involve finishing the mission. The Captain would not be there to approve any changes to his ship that he has not set permissions for, so once the current mission is over, or in case of free flight, immediately, the ship just sits there. Cannot be engaged, cannot go anywhere, cannot be abused, and players' own ships are automatically summoned. Life goes on for those who don't want to wait for the Cpt to return, just like when you're doing a mission on Pinnacle and your Healer LDs. Once the last PC leaves, the ship disappears until the Cpt logs back on.

V) Fun Factor

By making each of these departments deeper, we make our currency/item system deeper, giving even solo players levels of depth in customizing their crew that was not available before. Instead of getting four tactical guys to go with them on their away mission, they can get melee guys, if they so choose and lay hands on the oppostion to their mission.

For the teamer, it provides versatility... if my ship/equipment is not up to snuff for the mission, I can hop on with someone else and still adventure with them. It also provides an inherent sidekick system, so that no one has to level up to their buddies to play with them. Any one can, essentially, play with anyone.

VI) Ship Interiors

Keep it simple, and simply use it as a hub, or a player city. Bridge as the ship's central location. Personal Quarters (that travel wholly with you from ship to ship) for storage and decoration and display of trophies, Engineering and tubes for Engineering gameplay, Science Bays for crafting, Comm terminals for mission generation, and holodeck for instant missions and casual PvP. "Ten" Forward as a lounge with whatever little RPG-minigames there may be to have (3D Chess, Poker).  Bigger classes of ships have all of these. Starting classes of ship have none but Bridge.

VII) Note on Other Factions

In theory, the Federation is the 'mario' or well rounded default character, and other races are more specialized.  The Klingon Faction for instance, might be heavier on Combat than Science, and the skill trees would reflect that.  The Romulan faction may deal more in politicing and have more robust pet class features, but perhaps less engineering feats. 

VIII) Conclusion

So there's no doubt that optional PC Crews would be challenging, but the challenge is to get beyond some assumptions we make as game designers.  It is, in short, a perfect opportunity to change the way that we look at MMOs, balance, classes, economy, acheivement and teaming.  Those who love teaming get to team meaningfully, and those who dislike teaming can earn everything that another player has to offer them.  

Thank you for getting the facts.  I haven't read them all, but it looks great.

I'm not very optimistic about the Trekkieness of the whole thing.  I think I'd enjoy this if it were a different IP, though.  Sounds like Mass Effect, actually.

^ Agreed.

I think that waiting for "the right way" features is a waste of time and money.  Capes, Bases and playable villains were all added into City of Heroes eventually, they were all things that were waiting to be done THE RIGHT WAY, but I wasn't overly impressed with the latter two.  The Trek experience revolves around the ship.  The STO experience revolves around the Captain.  It's a different experience altogether.  A different franchise to some.  You can't add in a sort of walkaround starship add on later and expect it to be awesome, balanced, useful and universally fun.  If its not a priority now, it won't be later, it'll be peripheral, and, like the 'right way' features of CoH, not necessary to enjoy the best of what the game has to offer.

The lack of Ship interiors is what has turned it from Star Trek to a typical MMO, to me.  I've been following its development and they are doing everything they can to shoehorn Trek into a traditinal MMO structure and its really typical and requries no thinking at all, on the contrary, all it requires is to gut Trek of its inner workings and design classes of ships like traditional MMO Classes.  It's really very silly when you step back and look at it, and while they might have background and mythos in tune with the show, the experience doesn't appear to be anything like it in spirit or function.

It's just an MMO, not really a "Star Trek experience."

IF they had taken the time to figure out how to make a ship interior-focused game fun, exciting and action packed, then, man... that would have required real thinking, and that would have won me as an eternal fan.  As is, especially how they're reusing the same MMO engine for Champions, to me its like they're coasting creatively.  They might be working hard, but it sure isn't on anything groundbreaking.

The way cel-shading works nowadays, this could be awesome, and I think a combat system with checks and balances and counters that is based partially on where and when the battle takes place could be awesome.  I don't think anyone will give it the full effort it deserves, though, especially now that the show is over.

They can't even do more than relatively cheap fighting games for Naruto, just like DBZ.

I've read your series and this little set up really applies to nearly ANY mmo.  Placing the linear storylines inside a simulation sandbox really is the way to go at this point in the industry's development.

I'm pretty sure that ChO won't do all that.  They'll have some objectiveness and some battlegrounds, but I highly doubt they'll simulate  physics beyond friction and projectile speed on any meaningful level.

A Transforms MMO could be so awesome.

First of all, character creation would be more fun than anything.  All those crazy robot parts, and then choosing your vehicle mode and transformation style.  It'd be epic.

I'd love an Avatar MMO... has a great world... seems more authentic than Naruto to me...  -shrug-

Are they important to the show? The franchise? The Mythos?

They're important to the game as well.  I think each ship class, or at least ship-size should have its own interior map and be filled with content.  Small defiant-ships, not so much, but Galaxy class? There's NPCs there, NPCs with their own storylines.  There's belligerent crewmen, some that can even turn violent if triggered.  There's prisoners to escort, holodeck simulations (and disasters) to play out and aftereffects from battles and anomalies.

Add that to the great ideas you've been kicking around in here and yes, it's clear... ground combat, and even ship-to-ship combat should compliment the shipboard experience.

Originally posted by TookyG

Could you come up with 10 things for people to do on a ship in combat?  Sure.  Would it be simultaneously, fun, engaging, and rewarding for everyone involved equally?  Probably not.

Sorry that your SWG multi-person ship experience wasn't fun.  It's clear that the challenge wasn't up to the skill of your crew.  The fun, however, has been proven, provided the situation is challenging.

What to do on a Star Trek ship during combat? The key is having several layers to combat other than 'spam X, Y, Z until victorious.'  Another key to remember is that there is always something going on on the ship... like on the show:

1) Helm - Fly the ship. 

2) Tactical - Shields and Phasers.

3) Engineering - "Running around ships making repairs."  Multiple people.

4) Science - Crafting solutions.  Multiple people.

5) Command - Control NPCs like pets. 

6) Captain - Buffer via handing out 'commands.'

7) Security - Fighting intruders.  Many people.

8) Medical - Priority Processing NPCs to keep the ship going.  Multiple people.

9) Operations - A "buffing" position. Toss in Communications (chat channel control/link attacks in multi-ship battles) and Transporters (steadiness of hand mini-game to determine speed and potential health loss) and Sensors (??) for good measure. multiple people.

10) Away Team - Who says you can't send some invaders over to that Klingon Battlecruiser... potentially many people.

11) Uniques - You never know who's Betazoid empathy or Aurian battle meditation is going to come in handy at crucial points in the battle.  Potentially multiple people.

12) Non-Combat - Let's face it... the cook is just going to be in the galley, mining dilithium, or some such.  And the ship's counselor... she's gotta be doing something useful, right?  And what about the guys who are already preparing for after the battle? Or some other pressing issue to which the battle is merely an inconvenience?  What about the people on the holodeck who don't even know there's a battle?  Many people.

That's TWELVE ship to ship combat roles, to say nothing of dealing with anomalies, crazy planetary mysteries, exploration, travel and shipboard crises of varying degree and cause.  These 12 roles -  Engaging? Every bit as much as combat.  Rewarding? With XP and the right art/sound team, every bit as much as combat.  Fun? That's totally subjective, but all signs point to yes.

And I think this is the key to making a Star Trek MMO successful: making ships viable adventure zones of their own.  You can have 50+ on a ship, of wildly varying levels and experience and each be engaged both in combat and out of combat.  When you add on TOP of that mutli-ship combat, you have hundreds of people in a single epic battle, all combining strategies and such.  Perpetual got one thing right: Ships are cities/hubs.  They just forgot that they were player-run hubs that can be flown into battle.

Players who favor solo, for whatever reason, should still be able to play ten people on ten ships, but those who wish to pool should be rewarded for their teamwork and specialization.  Let solo players train up NPC crew to man those stations, and tab between the stations on their hud as needed... of course, again, they lose the multitasking and specialization, but so do soloers in other MMOs... no worries.

I'd love a Star Trek game that was a Sci-Fi game as opposed to a Fantasy Genre MMO with Star Trek Skins.  No healing class, no tanking (dear God no tanking) and real unpredictiable elements that require multiple adaptive strategies to overcome.

Imho, any Star Trek MMO that has levels, in the traditional sense, especially ones that affect hit points or whatever, is a failure at Star Trek, even if its a successful game.  Any Star Trek MMO in which Captains are the only way to play, or are inherently better at combat, medicine, engineering, science or tactical... well, that's a failure at Trek too.

Liscenced fun:

Star Trek MMO
DC Universe MMO
Heroes (NBC) MMO

Specifics:

I'd like to see consequences to actions in my next MMO.
I'd like to see games balanced by gradually changing enemy AI, numbers and environments, not by sweeping numbers changes.
I'd like to see PvP and PvE integrate seamlessly.  I know, but that's what I want.

A Harry Potter MMO should revolve around Hogwarts, imho, since that's the setting of the books, and that's what most people are familiar with.  The immense world should be available for different quests and missions and so forth, but the bulk of the gameplay should be school-based, just with a lot of field trips and independent study.

Figure about 3-6 months of heavy playing to be a "year" of Hogwarts, so you have two years to improve the school and develop the World of Harry Potter expansion for graduates to go work for the Ministry of Magic or become a dark wizard of one sort or other... or some other career path.

If the school gameplay is dynamic and engaging, if classes are fun and challenging, if students have chances to travel and get involved in larger than life adventures, then you can balance low level wizards against each other.  If you make the school a footnote, or just a tutorial level, then you need to balance high caliber wizards against each other in a, more or less, generic magical setting.  Either that, or you have 'graduates' who aren't actually more powerful than the students seen in the books.

Speaking of a tutorial level, it would be cool if certain checkpoints and actions and inactions in the tutorial determined, or helped determine where the sorting hat would put you.