Originally posted by Legato89

BioWare makes good single player story driven RPGs. Although I personally don't like their games as much as Bethesdas games I will say they are the best at telling a story in an RPG. This will not transition well online. There will be too many chiefs and not enough indians. MMOs cannot put a select few people on a pedistal and label them as the chosen one. You are not a unique snowflake. Look at every other successful MMO: you are just another soldier or citizen of your race/faction fighting for the good of the kingdom. STO is also going to suffer from the same issue. Every player will be a captain of their own ship with an NPC controlled crew. SWG did an excellent job by making sure each player was a lowly grunt, and once they stood out by unlocking Jedi they had a hefty bounty placed on their head. This typee mechanic works well, and its a shame Crypic isn't doing something similar to allow for multiple player run ships. Soon we are going to have more popular IPs becoming MMOs just to capitalize on the power of the IP, going for the instant gratification appeal (like with SWG NGE) and allowing any newb who just subscribed to be a class that takes years of training to reach (LotRO NOT letting players become mages for this very reason) or wouldn't fit the lore at all (SWG making Jedi a selectable class).

Indians = NPCs. Any questions?

I heard there was an issue with Firefox, try signing up in IE

The number of the OP are made up.  There were not, as stated 20 Million different people playing Warcraft at any time, it's possible that there still aren't 20 million different people who've played the Warcraft franchise. Heard of, sure, played? Perhaps not.

100 Million people is a nice random number, maybe for something smaller or recent, like the Matrix.  But when Episode III makes nearly a billion dollars, you're talking about 100 million views right there, not counting those who loved the OT and just didn't like/see the prequels, or got into Star Wars through its many, many, many games, of varying quality.
 

You're looking at a group of, counting casual fans, may number more than 250 Million than 100 Million. A group that's been having conventions for upwards of 20 years, not just in the last five years since WoW got big. 5% (Another made up number) of Star Wars' casual fans very well may be more than 80%% of those who've played Warcraft III.  I don't know the sales stats of Warcraft III, but if that's the best selling and best loved, it's a good indication of how many fans the franchise has, with Episode III, being the best selling, but certainly not the most loved, it may not even be half of the fans of the franchise.  1% of Star Wars' fans may be more than enough to rival a WoW that loses some customers.

I think this request is hilarious.  Why would the Sith Empire want you just because you fell to the dark side? They can't trust each other, why in the world would they trust you? Why would you want to join them as they destroyed your home and your entire world as you know it?

Originally posted by Crashloop 

The one thing that interest me with sandbox is simply the idea to become who you want, rather then become who the developers planned for you to be. I loved SWG pre-NGE for this. It had all the tools needed to become either the most feared player in PvP or known as the best crafter on the server. And it wasn't just because of the classes you choosed but your ability to use the tools provided by the game. Smugglers were selling information about bases vunereblities on their faction side to be able to sell more themself. There was a lot of things that made that game really good. The worst thing a sandbox MMO can do is try to cater just one part of the population.

That makes sense.  I misunderstood what you meant by "ultra PvP"

As stated, it's been done, it's always been exploited.

You can design a dozen algorithms to curb cheating and farming player-created missions/dungeons, but at the end of the day, its still highly exploitable if there are rewards involved.

The only way you can prevent this is to have rewards based on things that players cannot control.  That can either be a static mission length, preventing early completers from taking the next mission, or per-baddie only, with set AI that works against pulling, and other AI exploits. The alternate is to either NOT give rewards, or have rewards for a mission design approved by a professional.  Or come up with some exceptionally incredible algorithms to decide how much XP a mission should really generate, that takes into account average completion times, contact between designers and players and mob placement and map design.  Possible, but not  likely.

The fact that 90% of the missions would be trash is irrelevant. Good ratings systems already exist to bring the good stuff to the top. They will only improve as time goes on.  That's like saying we shouldn't watch TV because 90% of it is trash... and that's on a good day.

Originally posted by tupodawg999

Agreed. I think sandboxes are a niche and although still a potentially profitable niche they're trickier to make than a linear themepark so it's not surprising which way the dev money goes. I think the way to do a sandbox is to combine it with another niche e.g sandbox plus ultra-PvP or sandbox plus ultra-crafting and then gradually add more and more elements to it, including small themeparks scattered around inside the open-ended box or, as others have said, model it on the Fallout, elder scrolls way of doing things minus the main quest e.g i modded Morrowind so that the main quest didn't start until you were either a guild leader or head of a house. If you do something like that then those games are very like mmorpgs where you just wander around bumping into quest mini-themeparks rather than being led by the nose.

Why would you combine something niche with something extra niche, shutting out more players? The beauty of the sandbox is that it provides options and rewards all courses.  You CAN do a themepark mission trail, or you can just farm beets and rp with your 'wife' and 'kids' Or you can chart new maps and areas, or write books and run a library for other characters/players.

The idea of Sandbox being hardcore or PVP-centric is killing the genre imho. More options, not less, or what's the point?

Originally posted by Xasapis

I don't see any meaningful escapism simulated by sport games, either single or multiplayer. Mainly because the real deal, aka the participation, is more exciting than the simulation. At least for me.

Many people find escapism in professional sports, and find it vastly more exciting than playing backyard football with a few of their overweight out of shape friends, especially when their friends have jobs and participation, in any meaningful form, is simply not possible. This is one reason why Fantasy Football leagues are so popular.

As for the article, the main problem is that there are few, if any Sport-RPGs, even as single player games.  The interest is certainly there, sports games sell, MMOs sell, if you just find that intersection you can make a mint. The issue is making it compelling.  The balance, and the fun take care of themselves if you translate the sport well.

The NBA Ballers series is a great model for creating a persistent world, where you have objectives that occur outside of the arena that are associated with the sport but don't necessarily involve its gameplay.  This is prime territory for an item cash shop, imho, and you can leave the sport gameplay as purely a function of character skill and player skill.

I personally love the fantasy sports cartoon Galactik Football, which involves fantasy/sci-fi elements along with Soccer. As an MMO, that could pwn my world.  But it might just be me and some French kids playing, who knows.

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by Repulsion

Any game where you are increasing the effectiveness of your skill, through using it (gaining exp for it essentially) is a game where you level.

I don't see the purpose in trying to sugar coat it.

 

You are confusing level-based design with general character advancement.

 

It is extremely rare that people post that they do not want functional, visible or numeric character advancement. It's not a counter-culture thing, Rep, rather attempts by posters to find resolutions to distinct issues often recurring level-based MMOs. The two most common are level disparity and linear progression.

But I've seen level-based systems that handle the latter, and I've yet to see a skill based system that handles the former completely.  As long as defense advances as the character does, then a level 8 character will not be able to adventure with a level 40 character, at least not in any combat MMO. The artificial levelling system I've seen doesn't do much for it either.

And it doesn't seem that rare to me that the concept of levelling is decried. The OP speaks to a very real sentiment, from what I've observed, even if cooler heads prevail in this thread. 

What those who feel that leveling, in and of itself, is evil don't see is that the only way to really have progression without leveling would be to make capabilities (skills/powers/etc) On/Off, and players progress by collecting the skills and powers which they can load out in sets, and having each be explored in their own right.   Still, not having certain skills require other skills (leveling) or having more experienced players being able to load out more skills (leveling) would be counter-intuitive.

In a sense, if leveling isn't in the equation at all, then characters would essentially develop by customization, and the essence of interesting character development would be to make customization challenging, something many level-based games do already.

To a further point, leveling is a core mechanic of any RPG, single or what have you, even if the leveling doesn't take center stage.  As such, such a game that eschewed leveling completely would be a "true" MMO Action game.  Still, even single player action games, often, have some sort of leveling from Kratos' Enhanceable Blades to Spider-Man's extendable combos and Force Unleashed's Ranked-up special moves.

Why don't you make the game, so I can play it?

I like the concept of a community building a world into an invisible pre-design created by the developers.  That is an experience, beyond just being a game, and it'd be great to see and play.  Some of the ideas you hvae here, however, are a bit brutish and heavy handed.  Your design brief seems to rely on players being very unintelligent.  Cursing at each other and lamenting "the developer wouldn't have..." as opposed to "this game sucks, bye" and worse, only elite players thinking about building, while all the combat-fiends club each other like, no, AS neanderthals.  Really absurd.  If anything, the real life neanderthals will be the first grinding up the crafting tree, trying to get the most uber laser swords to "pwn puny civilization building carebears."

I like your idea a great deal, but it seems to throw player expectation and perception out the window, which isn't quite a good idea.  I love the idea of designing your costume as you play, though I would 'front load' all that collection stuff to avoid the triteness of a loot-driven game for a genre of people who are essentially self-sacrificial. That said, players want to design their characters first, and origin isn't all that clear.

I'd be more likely to downplay the origin length, but make it clear that this is important, probably with visual clues such as the change in background, even going so far as to bring it up twice, once as a tab in character design, and again as a last step when you have a chance to type up the origin.

Crafting such a system is kind of like a Mad Lib with nodes.  For every character you have a 'psyche map' or 'psyche string' of some sort which reads something to the tune of "Character X is motivated by their Y for Z after A, B, C happened. Event A causes them to fear Q, Event B causes them to love R, Event C causes them to hate S." And, as you suggest, these values generate missions and mission modules (dialogue, characters), to boosts and buffs depending on the location and NPCs involved.

Example:
Spider-Man is motivated by their Responsibility for The Greater Good after Being an Orhpan, Their Uncle's Death, Being Bullied in School.  Being an Orphan causes them to fear losing the people around them. Uncle Ben's Death causes them to love helping people. Being bullied in School causes them to hate bullies.

Adding a sort of per-person mutual faction standing with useful NPCs gives an additional psyche layout, and having flavors of relationships (rivals, crushes, colleagues, lovers, buddies, etc), allows for them to plug in differently to the psyche.  Spider-Man may not get a boost for saving Rick Jones, who is not close enough to him. If Rick Jones is bullying people, part of that bonus in an imperiled Rick Jones' presence may be diminished.

Furthermore, this is something that very much can be altered during gameplay, and in fact, the idea of playing out a character's origin in 3D as a tutorial is very compelling to me right now.  Perhaps delaying player desires is worth it, I'm not sure, but something that might be amazing is to slide players into the game before they know it to present the character creator almost as though you are getting ready for your day in the mirror, and go from there. Perhaps that's not suitably epic for a superhero mmo, but it's something to ponder.

Reviewing my original post, I realize that the words I used were not precise, they were up for debate upon their meaning and, from some perspectives, mean the same thing.  Perhaps a better set of words would be Amusement and Accomplishment as opposed to fun and win.  There are certain activities that are, in themselves, amusing and "fun" regardless of how much you accomplish.

Perhaps that's not what developers mean when they ask "Is this fun?" Perhaps, when they're testing out a new system, before they actually finish the reward system, they are asking themselves "is this rewarding?" I'm not sure, I wasn't there.  

Good posts all around though.

Non-condescending version: It's not coming out.  This is just an idea/wish thread. EA considered making a HP MMO, but no one cared enough about it to do anything with it.

Originally posted by LynxJSA

 

That was a long winded rant to say that the more rewarding the game experience is, the more fun it is to the player.

It would have been nice if you had worded that in a way to generate discussion instead of a way that invites insult. Are you trying to say that its a semantic distinction?

Thank you for your attention, I'll try to keep this brief. Often, enthusiastic game designers and would be game designers approach MMO game design with the goal to remove the grind from the game, so that the players can concentrate on having fun.  Often designers quote themselves as asking "Is this fun?" when they design functions and features.  Basic logic would dictate that someone who is playing a game, would be, by definition, trying to have fun.

This basic simple logic is absolutely wrong.  The Biggest Lie in MMO Game Design:
The Player wants to have fun.

This, makes so much sense, but it is so, incredibly incorrect its mindboggling.  The new MMO Player has no more interest in having fun playing their game of choice than Lebron James or Bobby Fisher.  Their goal, without exception, is to win.  They'll be glad to have fun along the way, make friends, be entertained, they'd love that, but fun is not the goal.  Not by a long shot.

How many times has an attempt to make the game more fun backfired horribly? Despite EvE's success, many players have logged out bored... if they can't level up, what is there to do? All they want is the next ship.  How desolate was Age of Conan's seige structure, all the fun available at low level, but the best achievement was to be found elsewhere, and so their PvP remains ill-used.

On the other hand, look at WoW, plenty of grinding, nothing special with the quests, but what's this? They constnatly reward their players with dings and whistles, and keep feeding them some epic this that or the other to aim towards.  Something to win. It's huge.

You may want to believe this lie of MMO game design because you, personally, want fun.  You know friends who want fun, and truth be told, there is a market for fun MMOs.  At the end of the day, however, those who want to win are a much greater number, and when it comes to plain old having fun, there are usually other things they'd rather be doing than playing an MMO, it's just that they can't 'WIN' at watching TV, or 'WIN' at playing outside.  But they can 'win' playing an MMO. And that's why they're there. That's where the money is.

But why am I telling you? You know all this already.

Feedback?

I like that idea, and I think "coding story" would really be a great development for the MMO.  Letting players pick an origin (motivation-wise, not chemical-x-wise) and then attach it to specific individuals as they see fit is a new kind of control over their gameplay, that I think many players could embrace.

Nice call.

---

The links provided don't seem to deliver clear cut or instantly recognizable classes. Perhaps I can derive something from them anway though, thanks.

Hey guys,

I've played the major Superhero MMOs out there, and honestly, I'm offended. I still see Tanks, and Healers and stuff, and while that's all well and good for the fantasy genre, and many traditional MMOers are beholden to that class structure, I think it is utterly out of place in the world of superheroes. I've drawn up some basic superhero classes, and tried to diversity and balance them, please tell me what you think. I'm still a long way from getting the game made, but any input would be appreciated.

The Bruiser

Specialties: 1 vs 1 Damage, Defense, Using Environment
Weaknesses: None

Bruisers are the Hulks, Things, Cyclopses and Supermen of the world. They hit things very hard, they either take a lot of hits or have powerful, if simple, ranged abilities, and are able to gain additional weaponry and utility depending on the environment such as throwing cars, pounding the ground or swinging trees around. They are often confused with tanks since they often draw the most attention because they take down single units quickest and are the hardest to take down. Best class for a beginning player and most like an action game.

The Elemental

Specialties: 1 vs Many Damage, Environment Manipulation, Self Manipulation
Weaknesses: Most moves take 'energy.'

Elementals are the Icemen, Human Torches, Green Lanterns and Storms of the world. They have a wide variety of moves and area effects at their disposal which cost energy. Fortunately, they gain energy over time, and if they are in a favored environment, such as Iceman in the rain, they recover energy more quickly. They have the ability to fight like bruisers, though this requires a higher energy output from them, and they cannot do it for very long. A good begnning class and most reminicent of a typical MMO.

The Skilled Fighter

Specialties: Status Effects, Combos, Utility
Weaknesses: Capped Damage and Defense

Skilled Figthers are the Daredevils, Hawkeyes, Soldiers and Batmen of the world. They have a number of moves that create status effects like stunned, disarmed, confused, blinded and enraged. These are typically used through items that the Skilled Fighters have equipped, such as Batman using a Batarang to disarm an opponent. Their increased item inventory allows Skilled Fighters to have more utility than other classes, and their combo bonuses allow them to inflict statuses and damage simultaneously quickly.

The Inventor

Specialties: Crafting
Weaknesses: Item Upkeep

Inventors are the Iron Men, Mr. Fantastics, Atoms and Mohinder Sureshes of the world. They are able to take resources and items and create devices of various types, such as tools, boosters, platforms, power sources, sensors and AI. They can even combine those devices to make even more incredible items such as Suits, Vehicles and Weapons. This gives the Inventor potentially infinite capability and versatility, at the cost of having to upkeep their items, keeping them tuned. It also gives them a sort of unorthodox buff, allowing them to give their items to others for one time or short term use before upkeep prevents the item from working reliably.

The Transporter

Specialties: Recon, Retrieval, Rescue
Weaknesses: None

Transporters are the Nightcrawlers, Nathan Petrellis, Flashes and Quicksilver's of the world. Empowered with an incredible transportation ability, they can get where they're going quickest, allowing them to clear the fog of war quickly, and pull out valuable imperilled civillians. They also have the unique abiilty to be able to make store runs for their team, functioning as a portable trading post for teammates.

So... what do you guys think? Would you take one of those?

I see... it is similar, but I don't think either of those games takes it "all the way" and still allows for a fair bit of variation between members of each class, especially at high levels -  but I haven't played it myself, so perhaps I'm misunderstanding their system. Taking it all the way, there is no skill selection, and a suitable party can be formed by varied members of even the same Early Game class.

Originally posted by Andromedus1

I was without internet for some time, but I didn't want to drop this thread quite yet.

To Hype (and Ghstwolf):
 

Who said this MMO was standard?  There isn't one currently in existence with the kind of combat I've described as its core mechanic (that is to say, the thing that players will spend the majority of their time doing).  You can't get that anywhere today in a truly massive MMO.  I freely admit that $50 a month may not be necessary, the real question is what will the server necessary to handle it cost.  If the server could be built for a small-scale virtual world and a small population and be reasonably priced, but be made to expand modularly as the population increased via subscriptions, then business risk could be minimized and customer pricing could be reduced/optimized.  I don't see any reason why that solution might not be able to assuage all of our concenrs (sufficient server power, cost, and ghstwolf's business loan concern).  But, I'm not formally educated in networking, so I don't even know where the boundaries for the box I should be thinking inside of are.

But combat is a standard mmo feature. You can get combat anywhere. And while twitch melee combat is certainly different, it isn't inherently 'better' and the logic of charging more for it doesn't carry through.

What makes you think that the standard MMO servers can't handle this, much less the ones out in two years? There's plenty of leftover computing power for every available mmo.  The real concern should be client side in drawing all this mess in real time. That's where the concern is.  No one is pushing their server on triple A MMOs.  I suspect they're not even close to pushing their servers.  I imagine they're like jets.  Flying around the country at 30% capacity. (Not to be confused with 30% CPU usage!)

I don't have a whole lot of insider information on MMO networks, but from my research on lack of AI, there are no server computing power problems, and when there are, it's typically due to a programming oversight and the whole system goes down, prompting those issues to be worked out in late beta or just after launch.

If you're talking specifically about a small release, then all we need to do is math.  How much do servers cost, how many calculations/sec are needed on average in a battle of this type, plug the numbers in and viola, you have a much better idea of the amount of money you need to recoup.  I highly doubt that $50/mo will be it.  I mean, how much are the JKA Galaxies guys charging?

I like the idea of a class tree a great deal, combinging the kind of flexibility of a skill tree with the controllability of a class system, you get a happy medium, and potentially a great deal of variety in characters, as well as more information about characters just from seeing their class.

Typical Fantasy Classes:

Tutorial Class:

Child - Player Starts as child in tutorial, can evolve into fighter, scout, mage, priest, folk

Early Game Classes: May specialize in their abilities, but doesn't have special talents.
Abilities are moves that your character can do. A fighter has an ability to use melee weapons, while a Mage has an ability to cast a healing spell. Each class change comes with new abilities, so eventually, there will be some crossover of some sort.

Fighter - Melee and defense abilities. Evolves into Monk, Warrior, Knight, Rider, Guard

Scout - Movement and Accuracy abilities. Evolves into Asassain, Archer, Ninja, Ranger, Runner

Mage - Energy and Resource abilities. Evolves into Elemental, Summoner, Alchemist, Destroyer, Creator

Priest - Energy and Social abilities. Evolves into Cleric, Paladin, Druid, Elder, Pastor

Folk - Social and Resource abilities. Evolves into Merchant, Crafter, Entertainer, Noble, Trainer

Mid Game Classes: Can level up special talents, but no signature abilities.
Talents are bonuses to skills available to all players.  Monks have a barehanded talent, and are inherently more effective barehanded than a Warrior or Fighter.

Monk - Bare Handed, status effects. Evolves into Phoenix, Dragon, Tiger, Yeti or Fox.
Warrior - Big Weapons, massive slow Damage. Evolves into Barbarian, Hunter, Savage, Amazon,
Knight - More Melee and Defense talents. Evolves into Paladin, Dark Knight, Lord Knight, Samurai, Knight Captain
Rider - Gains animals talents while mounted. Evolves into Calvaryman, Elephanter, Dragonrider, BeastTamer, HawkFiend.
Guard - Defensive talents. Evolves into Bodyguard, Guard Captain, Sentry, Warden, Patrolman
Assassain - Stealth talents, assasain talents. Evolves into Sniper, Trapper, Chameleon, Conspirator, Executioner
Archer - Arrow talents. Evolves into Crossbower, Longbower, Stunt Archer, Multi Archer, Knife Thrower
Ninja - Movement and stealth talents. Evolves into Kunoichi, Kunai Master, Infiltrator, Shinobi, Gaiden
Ranger - Melee and defensive talents. Evolves into Tracker, Knife Thrower, Whisperer, Weaponsmaster, Whipper
Runner - Movement talents. Evolves into Messenger, Recon, Striker, Thief, Athlete
Elemental - Elemental talents. Evolves into Fire Lord, Water Master, Wind King, Earth god, Voided.
Summoner - Summon talents. Evolves into demon acolyte, mythic conjurer, army bringer, force shifter, deity bound.
Alchemist - Alchemic talents. Evolves into Weaponsmith, Enchanter, Chimera Maker, Potioner, Materialist.
Destroyer - dark mage talents. Evolves into Eroder, Eldricher, Curser, Posessor, ShadowKing
Creator - light mage talents. Evolves into Healer, LifeMaker, Constructor, Transporter, Energizer
Cleric - healing talents. Evolves into Empowerer, Doctor, Chiropractor, War Cleric, Cleric Director
Paladin - melee talents. Evolves into Paladin Captain, Elemental Paladin, Paladin Archer, Noble Paladin, Dark Paladin.
Druid - nature talents. Evolves into Shaman, Woodsman, PlantMaster, Totem, Stormcaller
Elder - various talents. Former Knight, Former Archer, Former Destroyer, Former Cleric, Former Crafter
Pastor - leadership talents. Evolves into Fanatic, Counselor, Arbiter, Bishop, Mediator
Merchant - trading talents. Evolves into Travelling Merchant, Store Owner, Auctioneer, Treasurer, Beggar
Crafter - crafting talents. Evolves into Blacksmith, Leatherworker, Tailor, Carpenter, Masoner
Entertainer - musical talents. Evolves into Bard, Orator, Scribe, Griot and Dancer
Noble - social talents. Evolves into Advisor, Duelist, Regent, Diplomat, Elitist
Trainer - various talents. Evolves into Fisherman, Farmer, Homemaker, Butcher, Baker

Late Game Classes: Have signature abilities, but no signature gear.

Signature abilities are moves with multiple applications that are very powerful, and redefine playstyle for a particular class path.  A Phoenix is a very different kind of Monk for instance.

Phoenix - Death Fire. Death Flight. Phoenix Style. Evolves to Winged Phoenix, Firebird, Three sectioner.
Dragon - True Fire. True Swim. Dragon Style. Evolves to Sea Serpent, Dragonbreather, EasternSworder.
Tiger - Earthroar. Tiger Style. Air Tread. Evolves to Katana, Jungleking, Pouncer.

...

125 Late Game Classes here.

...

Homemaker - Cleaning. Cooking. Nurturing. Evolves to Mother. Maid. Chef.
Butcher - Curing, Cleaning Meat, Chopping. Evolves to Cleaver, Curist, Meat Cleaner.
Baker - Breads, Meat, Pastries. Evolves to Breadwinner, Baster, Cakeman

End Game Classes: Signature Gear, but must maintain it keep using it.
Signature gear is gear that comes from some special place, such as space, pure magic, master smiths, or what have you.  Each piece of gear is unique via procedural generation algorithms, as well as attached to a permanent quest or story (dead bosses stay dead). Signature Gear is the end game, and retrieving it, maintaining it, naming it and its generated name are all part of that system.

Winged Phoenix - Posesses Wings for flight and energy focusing.

...

375 End Game Classes here.

...

Cakeman - Possesses Pastry Oven for creating signature pastry items, useful for health and NPC manipulation.

Keep in mind to take advantage of the class-tree system, all members of the same class would play pretty much the same, you'd customize what moves would be strongest/most efficient and what gear you'd have, but ninjas would be ninjas, you'd know what you were getting. There could be a certain standardization, a name for each basic configuration.  There'd be just as much variety as any other game, maybe a little more, not less, but the path you take to getting there would be much more clear. Also, having everything compartmentalized makes add-ons of various type so much easier.  Balancing as well. I'd love to see such a system implemented.