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All Posts by Flute

All Posts by Flute

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Originally posted by Burntvet

And on top of that, DF was programmed VERY poorly.




^ Let's be real here, that is why they are making a totally new game, rather than trying to fix the old code.  Same game concept, just with loads more years of game programming experience this time round.  They could not do "basic" things in Darkfall 1.0 due to the way it was programmed, this time they should be in a much (MUCH) better place to tweak adapt and fix things.  You can't put more sand in the sandbox when the box can't handle the sand it had ... so they made a whole new box :)

Originally posted by Callidor

As a huge fan of Shadowbane, Im dying for a good team based pvp game, however Im hesitant to invest in DFUW. ....


Remember if you bought Darkfall 1.0 (and I assume you did as from memory there was no free-play option when NA-1 launched) then Tasos has confirmed you won't need to repurchase the game, just pay a 1 month sub when the time comes,  download, and you're back.


A lot of people would be REALLY hesitant if they had to pay full price for Darkfall : Unholy Wars given darkfall 1.0 really did have genuine and deep problems.  However the whole point of the new game is to overcome those deep problems, so at $10 to $15 (I haven't seen a confirmed sub price/plans yet) I really don't think it is a risk at all for ex-Darkfallers to come back and try out the new game.  I spend more on a night watching a bad movie!   


Besides, many players still cherish the memory of the first days of Darkfall, where mana missle and goblin bows were the weapons of choice :)  Darkfall : Unholy Wars might or might not live up to its hype, same as any game.  But if it comes through, do you want to be one of those saying "damn, wish I hadn't missed that?"

Actually the game got Greenlighted onto Steam last week, Tasos is likely to announce preorder info later this week (go watch the intervew :)

Yup Aventurine worked out a much neater solution to skilling up in the latter part of Darkfall 1.0's life, with the Meditation system combined with a chance of skill gain bonus on monsters.  You could still afk macro if you wanted, could off-line level if you needed to, but it was more efficient to level up through actual play.  That is the model we expect to see in Df:UW, as it worked well and importantly still enabled casual players to advance enough to actually have fun in pvp without a few months of mandatory grinding first ;p 

Originally posted by Justin9820
Originally posted by Rohn
Originally posted by Cecropia
Originally posted by Justin9820
Originally posted by grimgryphon

Missed Darkfall? Which one?

Darkfall, Darkfall 2010, Darkfall 2.0, or Darkfall: Unholy Wars? Which is the the one that isn't vaporware?

I'm so confused...

There was only ever one darkfall...

Yup. Just one.

And contrary to the hopes and dreams of a few little "odd specimens" it clearly never ended up as vaporware. Too bad so sad.



It wasn't vaporware, but sadly it also wasn't anything even close to being a sandbox game.  At best, it was a clan warfare themepark, with the worst community imaginable.

Hoping the next version will be much, MUCH closer to what the original game was supposed to be.

Im don't really agree with you. while it isn't a full blown sandbox, it was extremely far from themepark. Themepark gets its name because when you play a themepark game, you are just along for the ride. Darkfall was a game where you made the ride, sure there was premade mob spawns and you couldn't truly shape the world, but on every other level than that it was  a baby sandbox game.


This is pretty much spot on imo.  Darkfall : Unholy Wars needs a lot more sand to be a true sandbox game, however part of the whole point of re-making the entire game is so that Aventurine can actually add and modify things more easily.  They simply couldn't do a lot of what they wanted before due to technical limitations they didn't appreciate in the original game.  Rather than patching the original code to oblivion, they just started fresh which is both nearly unheard of but also absolutely the best way to go.


The one key feature that Darkfall 1.0 had which nearly no other MMO out there had or has with the exception of CCP's EVE Online, and which Unholy Wars will without a doubt have, is player-driven drama.   The importance of this cannot be underestimated.  Many games talk of the community creating content, and of players having a meaningful impact on both the game and the world - in Darkfall, you really could.  Sure all the players want a great deal more sandbox features to be able to modify the actual map (etc), but empires really did rise, go to war with other empires, and fall in flames to the sounds of cannons and conquoring armies.  


The simple question to ask is "could someone write a novel about thier adventures in this game?"  Typically the answer is "no", because in themepark games everything you do has already been written by someone else, there is little if anything remaining to write about.  In contrast, some events were so Shakespearean in Darkfall 1.0 that players in the community at one point actually queried whether it was a couple of GMs/Devs playing out a Shakespearean tragedy - but it wasn't, it was just two players, love and betrayal most foul wrapped up into the game and played out unscripted for all to see.  In themeparks someone writes such storylines, in Darkfall they simply happen as a consequence of the world's design and ruthless systems.


Yes darkfall needs more sand in the sandbox, but like EVE, over time this game will undoubtedly get more sand.  Will it ever have the freedom EVE does?  Maybe, but that would take nearly a decade.  But in the meantime, yes Darkfall Unholy Wars is definitely one to play.  Also remember that to see the big drama of the world you need to do something most games don't actively encourage - you need to talk to others in the game.  You can solo, do quests, and never interact with anyone, but then you would risk missing the drama.  So if you do try Darkfall, do yourself an incredible favour and say "hello" to people in the game rather than just trying to level up skills etc in the themepark way of gaming.  You will never meet your future friends or your dastardly nemesis if you treat everyone else like well-written NPCs :)

Originally posted by DavisFlight


I'm glad to see that Aventurine, one of the only companies that sees instances for what they are, a crutch, is also one of the ONLY MMO companies to GROW after launch in the last 8 years,


Absolutely.  The concept of limited access instances only appeared because of failure of designers to develop better systems to counter the boss camping that occurred in some of the earlier MMOS in shared dungeons.


Of all the games companies out there, the two independents who seem to be "getting it" and growing still are CCP and Aventurine, who have been smart enough to watch and learn off CCP.  I hope other independent games companies do the same, and give us games worth playing rather than yet another variant of WoW, which is of course itself a derivative of the games that came before it.

Originally posted by Cocophish
Originally posted by MindTrigger

Out of curiosity, I've been told by several people on this site that DF:UW is basically pure PvP, with little or no PvE.  What's the point of such a huge world in that case?

(I didn't play DF, so this is all new to me)

There is as much pve as you want! From small solo mob spawns to large boss mobs that require large groups.



This is totally true.  I played Darkfall for a couple years, primarily as a pve / naval pvp player.  Darkfall had some of the best pve ever, and taking down a red dragon with a bunch of new players with bows never (ever) failed to be incredibly fun, and kiling kraken & golems with ship cannons was just the icing on the cake :)


Anyone who says DF:UW is pure pvp has missed the point - the backbone of the player economy is people mining, chopping wood, and pveíng.  Player cities were never built by PvP - they were built by socially minded harvesters, crafters and pve'ers.  All of whom then rallied together to defend what they had built, when pvp players decided to just try to take it off them.  As someone who baked bread and made arrows during an extended siege (and we won!), never let anyone tell you Darkfall is only about pvp.  It's like EVE Online in that regard - there is a heavy focus on pvp, but that pvp simply could not happen without the rest of the game world.  A mighty warrior in heavy armour with greatsword is the icon of pvp, but he or she would be naked without the pve and crafting that made all their gear! 

Originally posted by Impeator101

... Unholy Wars does not look like it will have the same diversity of enviornments that WoW had, no really exotic locations, just Grasslands, Snow, Volcanoe Ashlands, Deserts and Wasteland. The world itself also looks very empty, I wanna see huge cities that are alive with people (NPC's).


There will be huge cities that are alive with people, but those will be the player cities.  In Darkfall 1.0 the NPCs used the same server-side resources as a player avatar, meaning that large NPC loads also created significant lag when decent numbers of players were present as well.  My understanding is that is part of why they removed NPC guards in beta and put in guard towers instead.  When they talk of "needing to remake the game from the ground up" they really did mean it, and need it - with the new designs, NPC 'fluff' citizens will likely be far more easily implemented, without causing significant lag issues.  


As for diversity, Darkfall 1.0 had that in spades.  I hope the world designers have left in large, grassy fields (etc), and not fallen into the WoW trap of feeling the need to jam clutter into every open space ever made.  Some of the most epic pvp battles ever were such because of the huge open spaces around certain cities - there was no safe advance other than full on frontal assault, which led to cavalry charges and immense mage vs mage long range spell duels.  Superb stuff, but only possible because the terrain was "empty" compared to WoW or other games on rails.


Also never forget - the moment you think the world is too big or too empty, you're going to realise this is a FFA PvP game, and no matter how far away from "civilization" you think you are, no matter how "alone" you think you are, the truth is the world is not nearly large enough to hide from the player killers who will be searching for you :)

Originally posted by RandomDown

Tricky question. ...  The investment firm clearly sees thisinvestment in the company as a way to launch a mobile platform of some kind and currently they purely work on this one particular piece of software, PC software at that...

Remember who owns Aventurine isn't really the issue, particuarly as none of us can have any idea what else that company is working on in addition to the Darkfall games. 

For gamers, what we have always cared most about is when an independent games company sells thier game to some faceless corporate publisher who wants to simply get as many subs as possible for as long as possible, without any ongoing support or improvements.  Such a move has often in the past been associated with "WoW-ify-ing" the independent game in an effort to increase its subscription appeal, robbing it of the very magic that made it worth playing in the first place.  That is NOT what is happening here.



Based on somewhat dated information, Darkfall entered a partnership with another company to bring a localised version of the new Darkfall game to the asian MMO market.  That actually makes a ton of sense, because an asian player community bring different cultural perspectives and expectations to a game, and done right Darkfall Unholy Wars in a localised version would be a smash hit in asia.  They never sold Darkfall, rather they have teamed up with another company who knows the asian market well and sees the potential for a localised version of the new game there.


So no, Aventurine is not selling out - either literally, or figuartively.  Rather what they are doing is using their improved resources to rebuild the entire Darkfall game from ground up, including:

  • new user interface,
  • better sounds,
  • better graphics,
  • better animations,
  • overhauled new player experience
  • new map,
  • new advancement rates,
  • better performance (no lag spike as 'radar'),   
  • improved crafting
  • Class system overlay on skill system to make combat more diverse
  • significantly improved host-side ability to change things.
The second to last one has had a bunch of die-hards up in arms, but honestly you can still have and level every skill in the game, just you can't have all of them active at the very same time, so I don't get the problem.  Super-macroed tank-mages were nearly unkillable cyborgs of death in Darkfall 1.0 (yes cyborg, because they used macro scripts to do nearly everything, including levelling up overnight), it will be a lot more fun being on the same competetive level as everyone else much sooner - without months of AFK macroing and/or exploiting required first.
Aventurine have also fessed up that not everything will be included at launch, which honestly is a good thing.  I much prefer delayed release of big ships and hovertanks to enable proper testing and balance work to occur - ideally with the community's direct input.  Does that mean that they "sold out"?  Certainly not.  It just means they are being more realistic this time around about what they can deliver, and have chosen to defer things rather than ship them in a state that fails to meet the game's potential.  I'm fine with that, especially as they told us before we bought the box. 
From the Darkfall forums:
+ Manos: Vangelis, at some point there was an announcement for a co-operation with an Asian company (M-Game) . I don't know if there's going to be an Asian server as well.

Vangelis: Yes, we have a Korean partnership, we can't comment on that yet, but the partnership exists and we co-operate with them on a daily basis. But the result will take some time to come out."
Be careful of believing things you find on the internet, they are not always what you expect.  Besides, last time you at a Big Mac from McDonalds, did you look to see who owned the restaurant or did you care much more about the fact it was a real McDonalds restaurant and was clean with good food handling?  It all tastes the same from a company store or a franchise holder (and yes, many of you may say how could it get any worse, but that is a different issue!)
And buy Darkfall : Unholy Wars you should - why?  Because it's unlike anything quite like you've ever played before, unless you played Darkfall 1.0.  Come on - how many Greek MMOs have you played?!

Brilliant.  I never expected Av to do so well at simplifying the game environment!  :p


it's now so rampant they can't ban anyone, or there would be nearly no-one left.  So yup, join the fun if you think that's fun!
DnL had pvp?!  I never found anyone else in-game to pvp lol   I did really enjoy going to the top of mountains, snowboarding half way down then gliding over the glacial valleys.  Great world concept, horrible horrible well, pretty much everything else that wasn't the view, snowboarding or gliding.
Originally posted by kaiser3282

Its amusing watching all the complaints / crying about Skirmishers being the new "OP mage" or whatever when we have seen only 1 of 4 sub-roles within Skirmisher, ..

Actually what we have is Skirmishers being given Puncture, a shot that mechanically is the same as the instant cast rays Aventurine said last month they were removing because they were overpowered.


So yes, Aventurine have Romnesia.  That is something the community has every right to be concerned about, because if the new game is to fix the flaws that plagued Darkfall 1.0, Aventurine putting the flawed elements back in is not going to end well.  Max damage AoE template anyone?  Remember what Darkfall 1.0 was like before they fixed that?  No thanks.

Phew, that's ok then.  CCP have let slip that they plan to keep Dust indefinitely, so it will probably be around long after PS3 has slipped into the place all old consoles go.


Edit - yup yup, DnL faceplanted big time.  It actually will be entertaining playing Df:UW to see what happens, it will likely have a spectacular and memorable first month; whether it makes it past that first month only time will tell. 

Originally posted by Raxeon
Originally posted by Boreil
Yes i do belive this will be the "NGE" for Darkfall, the changes to the veiw point and the skill/class system are going against everything Darkfall is kown for, who knows if it will pan out in theirs favor.

cant make it worse than what it is


Originally posted by Raxeon

hell for 10 or 15 to give the new game a go ill take it

I never said I wouldn't give it a try, as I said in another thread here it will be interesting, I played Dark and Light because it was interesting too, it's Han who has the blind faith wedged into hyperdrive.

Originally posted by Hancakes

Credible playerbase?





Oh another forum fluffer

lol pardon?


We all know that Darkfall 1.0 ceased to be a fun game when it took 3 hour to find PvP.  If the playerbase is too small at launch, people will not continue to play.  The game has to have a credible player base, as all such PvP games need.  Themeparks don't actually need nearly as large nor as stable a playerbase - the ride is the same no matter how many duplicate copies of a dungeon are created (or not) at a time.  Darkfall is like EVE though - without players, the game would be truely pointless.  As such, it has to acquire and retain a credible playerbase, or it will collapse.  EVE proves that FFA pvp games with full loot can not only survive, but can thrive over the long term.  Whether Aventurine can emulate that success, and build on the lessons of their failed Darkfall 1.0 game, remains to be seen. 

I wouldn't be too proud of those numbers, I have also seen a lot of automated spam messages for handbags, jackets and other things on the DF forums, every one of those botted messages is probably a +1 to that site's membership.


The real tests will be whether Aventurine launches on time, has a credible playerbase, and whether the game is remotely similar to the advertised game.  Given they seem to be saying nothing they will be safe on #3, but that risks #2, and given how little we have seen of the game, #1 has to be in question now as well.  After all, they don't even have pre-orders up yet, right?

Originally posted by kaiser3282
Originally posted by Flute
Originally posted by Uzik

... It could also do wonders for the whole hybrid AOE spam zergfests in sieges if it is balanced well.  The biggest worry with AV is always testing.  DF 1 was barely tested before release, and I worry that the same will be true of DF 2.  ...

Yup, spot on.  It seems very likely that we will acutally see hybrid AoE spam dominate the game again, after all AV's idea of balance so far seems to be to make everyone a mage, and give everyone AoE.  Nearly everyone will probably pick up crowd control as well for thier secondary class, so for all that has changed I suspect nothing will change - due to inadequate testing and balance, there will be one "min/max" powergamer class combination, and that is what everyone will be.  


For all the changes, we will again have monotone armies of  tank mages, or archer mages (or whatever the min-max is).  Kind of like CCP releasing a badly balanced ship, and suddenly all of New Eden was drakes, drakes, and more drake fleets, until things got balanced more.  Such balance issues don't make the game "not fun", just not as much fun as intended.


2nd class? There is no 2nd class. There are primary and secondary magic schools for mages, and secondary roles which have limitations (more costly skills and no ultimate) but they wont be as effective as your primary.

There also wont be tank mages, as mages wont be wearing heavy armor like in DF1.

You also seem to be assuming that "ultimate" skills like Salvo are just going to be some sort of insta-cast skills with no cooldown or something and people will just be running arund spamming AoEs nonstop.


When I see a tank throw his arms out to the side, and see a bad guy magically fly away, he's a tank mage. 


Comparing the mechanics to Darkfall 1.0, Bearsark's AoE attack is basically an instant cast stormblast or tornado, the ultimate is the same thing but add in an instant cast confusion spell.  When they magically hit people without aiming ... it's magic.  Just like the Skirmisher's Puncture skill that goes through multiple people is mechanically indistinguishable from a Darkfall 1.0 instant cast ray spell, the Skirmisher's trueshot is the same as a mages bolt spell only instant cast, and the exploding arrow and ultimate shots look suspiciously like r50 and r90 attack magic spells - right down to the green earth magic swirly around the caster and the acid splash of the explosion.


Please note that is ok - Darkfall isn't a medeival simulator after all.  Archers are allowed to use magic, so are people in full plate.  But if the guy in full plate does things that are indistinguishable from magic he gets to be called a tank mage in my book, because that's what he is.  That teleport forward thing is pretty funky, no way he's just sprinting!  The Skirmisher actually is a mage, Aventurine even say the shot is using magic.  That wasn't somehting I expected, but as noted it's their game so if everyone gets to use magic all the time that might cause some real balance issues, but it's their call.


The secondary role will obviously be chosen to complement the primary, so if your primary role is crowd control (such as the Bearsark) the secondary wll most likely be damage, or the other way around etc.  Point is if the game is weakly playtested, there likely will be certain combinations that shine beyond all others, and players will very quickly flock to those combinations, undermining the whole point of the class system - which I understand Aventurine to have implemented precisely so everyone isn't ultimately the same, which is what happened in Darkfall 1.0

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