"Developers have everyting on a plate, from indepth living breating worlds to fast action gameplay to awesome UI design and controll scemes . .its all out there to watch learn from and put into a awesome game. all that matters to them developers now is how much money they got, but more importand how devoted the developers are themself, a small "poor" developer team is more likely to make the next Golden super mmo then any of the big game houses , just like the old baker on the corner makes better bread then the factory baker.

its all about love"

."  "  

Unfortunately we all have differing opinions on how to achieve those ends.  I believe end games should be about RvR in some meaningful way or maybe player built cities with a purpose.  I don't care  about raids or item hunting in dungeogns for the sake of becoming leet!  I like bringing a character up but become bored at the end games so just make another character instead.  Anyways there is no conspiracy or secret formula that is going to make us gamers happy no matter how much money or love is invested by the producer, after all he is making his vision and not yours or my vision!

I played EQ, DAoC and those are new things that those games didn't have in them.  I loved DAoC and considered it my favorite game along with SWG, but leveling in PvP is a big Stretch.  Just because something had something somewhat close or related doesn't make the one that actually made it work properly not a innovation.  Many of EQ2 innovations came years after its introduction, so not counting those as many were copied from current games to help them compete ( a good thing).

Also forgot about SWG - Player run cities

                                        Gathered materials that had varing quality

                                        Classes that didn't involve warfare

                                        Cool vehicles including space ships

                                        HUGH Pets!

EQ2 graphics even today are better in my opinion than WoW, SWTor and a few other newer release.  As for innovation here is my list:

STO - Player operated crew members with pickable skills

           Episode (TV like) missions

           Player made Missions

Warhammer - Fully level up doing just PvP if so desired

                       Public Quests

                      Multiple PvP scenario instances where you could lvl up

Rift - Cool Rifts where you could lvl up without questing

SWToR - Side kicks that help out and have personalities

                Voice over Quests, including class quests that make you the actual hero.

PotBS - Port wars for control of the game.  Rests after one side wins.

Sure there is much more but that is my short list!

I play and pay because I'm having fun, when that stops I'll quit playing. The game has me feeling like I'm a real hero and the Voice questings are a blast. I like the different classes (25lvl Gunslinger, 25lvl Counciller, 34 lvl Commando). With the crafting and space stuff there is enough content to keep me busy. When I reach max level with enough alts I'll probably quit the game if there isn't anything more to do than dungeon crawl or raid. I mostly play grouped with a friend and really like the game that way. 

Agreed Zekiah!

Most MMO's fail on the heroic stuff in my opinion, which is why I like SWToR in that requard.  I remember playing EQ and going into a town at cap level and being two stroked by a town guard.  Really a town guard?  Really was disappointing to my ego there lol.  I'm for building up from a peasant, but in the end I feel we should be above the average NPC.

I personally never got into UO as it seemed too lawless and the PvP had no reasoning in my opinion.  I prefer the more stuctured PvP that DAoC had where you had a sense of community with the side you were on. In the end Dem hibbies and Albies must go!

I can't see any real valid reason why they are the same.  It isn't like they didn't have a ton of money in this project, so being cheap is a reason I seriously doubt.I suppose if it was a last minute throw in that might be the reason, but they really need to rectify that now. 

Well I want both too, but still don't think it is possible.  If it were possible it would of been done at least once in all the new MMO's made in the last few years.  You can't really believe every single release made had inferior coders and/or a lack of funding right?  Although you can turn down graphics in most new MMo releases I have yet to see one that was able handle very large crowds if it had the excellent graphics to start with.  Once again what is considered excellent graphics is up to each of us to decide, but I'm assuming your meaningsomething in the lines of AoC.

For me to stay long term requires a sense of community, that I belong to something greater than self.  In that respect my two best MMO's where DAoC and SWG.  It also helps to have a lot of different choices when you log on other than just combat in my opinion. Housing, entertainment, crafting, player run towns, open sandbox feel all help greatly.  I can't think of anything greater though than defending your relic in DAoC against those dirty Hibbies or evil Albions!  There must be a sense of purpose at max level or I'll make a few alts than walk away.

As pointed out by others not too many companies are going to produce high graphic games that can't be played but on a minority of machines.  Your other point is valid enough and I do believe there are plenty of games with excellent graphics and good game play, just not too many MMO's as it limits the amount of peeps that can be on screen without lagging.  I believe the majority of peeps complain when they are instanced and can't have large raids or RvR/PvP engagements.  I believe it is more technical problems that can't be overcome with our available technology for the average computer of today, and not shoddy/lack of funding for the majority of what you seek.

I don't really think that is the case for most producers.  It also depends on what we value as good graphics compared to good game play, and each of us has our own opinions on that.  I still think it is technically impossible to have ultra graphics and large scale RvR warfare.  Also take into account the differences in each users computer setups and you can see what a nightmare it becomes.  I've played many MMo's and when the screen lights up with people or stuff and their combat effects the gameplay can certainly or most likely comes to a stall.  I just think it is unrealistic to want the best of both worlds when it is technically not feasible.

Try uncharted waters online and pick the merchant class, think that is what your looking for.

I like my Commando and Councilor, both range with some heals.  Don't have a problem with eithers story line but look forward to trying out the SI if that story is even better. :)

As I play Astroempires and Erepublik, so I pick game play over graphics.  I like RvR so even in bigger MMO's I understand there has to be a trade off in graphics for performance.  Want it all and you'll end up with a pretty picture and horrible lag!

Lol Truth what you see as its biggest flaw I see as its biggest strength!  If they had player crews as first envisioned i would of past up this game period.  I love my customized bridge crew and love the fact I don't have to worry they will lose link in a clutch situation or ignore my orders when given lol.

In my opinion PvP should actually be RvR.  I want reasoned PvP play, I get bored killing people for no reason other than loot.  We need the old DAoC realm pride to go along with some reason I need to better my side such as taking relics and such.  I like Kylera ealier post which I think adds value for peeps who want a reason to fight.  Make planets with objectives and let us make cities/guilds on them to defend and expand, that would be exciting!  Making PvP WoW style just bores the heck out of me.

I like it so far and will play for now.  The quests make you feel the part of a hero which is lacking in almost every other MMO.  Love how you get to decide on what answers to give when turning in quests.  Really makes my day when a group member goes"Dude, why did you answer that way" , just after you Jedisoned the engine room out to space lol. 

I like the crafting works although it is rather hard to get all the stuff required to make the better equipment.  I have level 33, 19 and 17 characters so don't know yet how the end game will hold me.  I do know I will play fro quite a bit more bringing up different types of characters.

Frankly I don't play a MMO because it has something new, I play it because it is fun.  SWToR is fun so I play it, end of story!

I think the way sites rate catagories might be adding to the confusion.  Adding catagories such as innovation really have little to do with whether a game is fun or not.  Most new MMo's should get a 2 or 3 in that catagory and that isn't necessarly a bad thing to most of us.  People compare all new games to WoW which added almost nothing to creativity from the ones before such as EQ and DAoC.  The fact WoW didn't have a lot of innovation didn't make it bad, in fact its refining of the past MMo's creativity just helped make it that much better.  On the other hand rating the new MMO's a honest 2 or 3 on these silly catagories would give new MMO's unrealistic scores of around 5 or less.  No one with any sense would tough a game with ratings that low. This game is very fun to the vast majority so a rating lower than 8 would of been unwarrented and in my opinion stupid.

Maybe it would be better to just leave off ratings and tell us what the rater finds fun and what he finds lacking. In the summary tell us why he actually likes or dislikes the game in spite of or due to its short comings.  I will say that in the end it is up to each of us to decide whether a game meets our expections as I like SWTOR, Rift, STO and don't like LoTR.  Does that make the best or worst games?  No, it is just my opinion and I wouldn't for a minute try to change someone elses mind that others on this board seem to strive to do.  State your case and move on. :)

I'm constantly running into people on every mission I do, so I'm not seeing a reduction of people playing the game.  That said I don't see how you could not be running into peeps as everything is funneled due to the Quests.  I've had plenty of occasions where I have to wait for respawns so I can complete my missions.

As for the haters hating, thats just a fact of life on these boards lol.  If you think these haters are bad, you should of been on STO at release as those haters took the game design real personal lol.  These guys are just amateurs!