Originally posted by Krn_Assassin 

so when haters claimed population fell and aion was maintaining it's position in #2, were they lying?

I don't know and I don't care. My point was that both sides use it and disparage it at the same time when it suits their purpose.

Originally posted by Daffid011

The overall rank of xfire is meaningless.

Except when people are trying to brag about how much their game has grown and how popular it is.

The game really IS boring. Everything is either a grind fest or a money sink.

And I still saw the SAME gold spammers day after day in the same spots. NCSoft just doesn't care about it.

Originally posted by mklinic

Well, for what it's worth, CCP supposedly uses this approach, but I can't really tell you when they adopted it. I know over the past few years Agile development has really gained in popularity, but how it applies to MMO development I couldn't tell you. I was merely addressing the portion where you said "ND's term" and not really making any statement one way or the other as to how this news reflects on JGE.

And your correct, it's a larger industry term, I just wanted to be clear in my original post that people knew that I myself was not calling their approach "Agile", but rather that it was the term ND was using.

Originally posted by mklinic

 just to be fair, Agile is not ND's term specifically. It is a programming methodology. More info at: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agile_software_development

At this point in time, it sounds less like an approach and more like an excuse. They were perfectly happy giving specifics about the game until the outcry from their official forums vis a vis their PVP and loss system, and then for some reason, their "Friends and Family" testing shut the whole thing down.

I don't believe for a second you can develop a complex MMO that is so flexible. If the big developers can't do it, then you can bet the small ND team sure as hell can't.

For those of you wondering how things are going on the official forums for JGE, the only word that comes to mind is deplorable.

Please don't take my word for it though. Head on over and read the topics being discussed. There's virtually nothing about JGE being discussed and most posters are just plain fed up:

http://us.jumpgateevolution.com/

There has been no new information about JGE for more than six months. Six months and NOTHING about the actual game. The developers are keeping everyone in the dark, claiming they are working on the game using an "Agile Approach" (ND's term) which lets them change the game at will, supposedly with no consequences for stability. This is their excuse for not giving us information about the game; because everything is subject to change.

If you find this ridiculous, you're not alone. Most of the old Jumpgate players have left and most of the large player guilds have been disbanded or have started playing other MMOs. And all of this is to say nothing of the recent change in command of the lead developer, which has still not been explained. However it's probably a safe bet that a major changing of the guard that goes unexplained was probably not a positive change.

Those of us on the forums are aware of JGE's reputation; that it recently won a vaporware "award" and that most people think it's a lost cause. And that's probably accurate.

Again though, you don't have to take my word for any of this. Read the forums and you'll see the dismal situation. 

Originally posted by Rakarai

Well since you stopped debating, and rather just sit there laughing and enjoying all of this like I am. I will now take this time to declare I win this little debate. I'm okay with beating your trolling nature to the point where you have to pretend like you don't care. I'm happy that it put you in such a state truly I am.

Thank you for proving my point,  and giving up on debating. Its nice to know you're right.

AMAZING! In the SECONDS that I make my lost post there are not but THREE new posts responding to what is virtually nothing on my part!

What fun. I can totally bullshit for pages and net tons of responses by people who are so self-conscious about a game they feel the need to respond because someone on the internet is wrong!

Hilarious. Thanks for the fun. Have a good night.

Originally posted by greed0104

Have fun playing with "stocks".

This just became my new signature. Thank you!

For everyone else who would like to respond to me, just FYI, I'm done with this read, so have at me. I'm sure it will be a nice confidence booster to respond to someone who won't hit back on the internet.

I appreciate the time and energy you all put into demonstrating how the utter pathetic nature of Star Wars geeks is going to take a horrible game and make it into a massive money maker. 

Don't say I didn't warn you, and please vote republican. I would like to continue making money from all the less intelligent people out there.

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by Daedalus732

 

1. Hubris, plain and simple. Oh I was like you once, thinking that MY company could do no wrong. Ah youthful MMO experience...

Apparently you don't know me very well, I acknowledge BioWare can fail, I also see the opportunity to succeed. Don't insist you was like me, that makes me a bit embarrassed to know how far a person can sink into stupidity while advancing into the future.

2. People choose to do the easier thing, but this game basically IS a SPRPG.

People choose what makes them happy, which is a big problem with people apparently. Are you seriously this upset people may have fun, alone? Oh my, anways, basically it IS how?

3. We have. People don't like the truth because it forces them to examine their own preferences. You do have choices in this game, and they are dialogue options 1-5. If that's the kind of "choice" you want, great. Go for it.

I'm glad to see you know what preference means. Hopefully you can apply that here and come to understand people may prefer a MMO like ToR. If not, find another forum.

Of coarse being given 1-5 choices is what I want. If  the captain of the ship pisses me off I'm capable of decapitating him.  What's the problem here?

4. I wasn't on the boards, actually, I was too busy playing the game. Before the NGE, the game was doing just fine with about 300k subs. Us vets weren't impossible to please, we just plain weren't listened to. WoW made people greedy, and that's what the NGE was about.

Same routine BS. I've seen it plenty times to identify it. WoW didn't make people greedy, it set a goal for every MMORPG maker to follow, and the list goes, Polish, Fun, Long-term play, User Friendly, Progression. None of these SWG had. Trust me, player made content is absolute rubbish. If you fancy rubbish, return, or find a new game.

The truth of the matter is, we had it right, and the failure of SWG after the NGE proved us right, while SOE's public execution become TOR's executive producer. Doesn't take a genius to figure out the issue there.

Major difference being SWG was not meant to be ToR, people that stayed with SWG before the CU or NGE liked the game as it was. ToR is meant to be ToR, therefore it will be ToR and those looking for the ToR experience will hop on the wagon watching and waiting.

5. I don't take offense to people finding something they might enjoy. In fact, I'm betting on it with stock in Bioware. I just feel the ethical need to point out that this is a scam. Disagree with me. I'm counting on it. I want you to buy this game. I just believe in being honest, and this is a scam.

Oh please, bore me with your conspiracy theories. BioWare is not trying and never has tryed to swindle anybody. SWG was a scam, it's been how many years and those same bugs are still present? Can you count the empty promises they have made as well?

It's just funny to me. You can be blatantly honest with people. You can warn them up and down, and STILL they make the stupid decision and make people like me rich.

Not that I'm complaining. I rely on the drones of the world to produce for my benefit and the benefit of others.

Please, enjoy the game, I hope a lot of people do, because I'll be watching the stock closely. If this becomes another WoW, I'll give a toast to it when my stock soars as a result.

Oh do you? Well allow me to welcome you to the "drone" community, didn't SoE bait you in? Good luck with those "stocks". I'm sure everything you're saying is truth and not fabricated bullshit.

Honestly dude, I didn't even read what you said because it makes no difference. I just logically inferred that you actually took the time to address each individual point and address it in different colored font, and all because you disagree about a fucking game.

Christ, this is fantastic. It just took a few posts to get people to go nuts about something totally irrelevant to real life.

Originally posted by Rakarai

Nope that's your logic in the works. You say you needed a group, I say you didn't its entirely player choice, they didn't have to rely on others. And saying you needed to rely on others for crafting materials isn't a very good argument. I need an auction house for rare drops that I don't feel like farming in any game, I never have to communicate with real people.

You agreed with me earlier that wow is a single player, and it has a very real auction house system along with a very real crafting system that needs groups/goods to get the tokens/items from raids. Since you defined wow as a single player in your earlier statement because you don't need to group to level, that makes your argument on crafting null and voice by the same logic. You can't have your cake and eat it too I'm afraid in this instance, to have one you can not have the other.

Now because leveling or as you say basic activities didn't need a group, and crafting certainly doesn't count, what does that leave you? That...seems strangely familiar...almost like this game called the old republic, I wonder what that could be? It seems like you might need a group for higher end content like raids, or pvp zones...hmmm...strange....so because you need a group for end game content its not single player? So wait...now you're retracting your statement and saying end game matters and makes a game multiplayer? Well I'm glad you see it my way, I  hope to see you in Tor.

I would just like to say thank you for proving me right, I truly do appreciate it.

1. Clearly you didn't play SWG before the NGE, because there's just no debate that it was an MMO in its most genuine sense. Other people were vital to your own success. This isn't arguable.

2. WoW is mostly single player until you reach max level, then grouping is more or less necessary to continue with the game's content.

3. You're reading what you want to read and then ignoring everything else.

All you're proving is that you're a vapid fanboy whose logic is going to make me a lot of money in the initial days of TOR's release.

You know what my logic is? You and tons of people like you are going to buy this game and make me a mint. Enjoy your purchase, because I certainly will!

Originally posted by luciusETRUR

The Old Republic will not be a single-player experience.. BioWare is just attempting to incorporate the RPG into MMORPG.

Because players can't be trusted to make their own stories.

This is just so sad...

But I'm over it. Please. Buy the game. Make me and Bioware money.

Originally posted by Rakarai

I'm glad that you agree with me that all games even pre nge SWG is single player. Now because you agree alright under your logic this game and all future mmos are single player. Lets change the name of the site now, we should let the mods know that this site is useless because most mmorpg's listed are single player.

Yes pre nge swg is single player, you didn't have to group, you didn't need others to craft. Sure it saved you time/frustrations, but it wasn't like you had to, you could of done it all by yourself the entire time and struggled. Its not like you had to since there was no end game goal, just whatever you wanted the end game goal to be. So yes even SWG pre nge is single player so I'm glad that you had such a great experience in a single player game like SWG. Well since you had such a great experience in a single player game like SWG, I'm sure you'll have a fun experience in an also single player game like Tor, I look forwarding to seeing you in game Daed.

No, that's not what I said. Pre-NGE SWG was very much an MMO. You needed other people to craft, group, and do a host of other activities. To do anything beyond the most basic activities required a group or at least the use of other people. There were so many people I counted on every day to provide me with basic services.

I'm not sure why I even bother to post. My words go unheaded and misinterpreted.

Originally posted by greed0104

1.) While people like me recognize those listed companies just make bad games, maybe not in the past. They're out of there league anymore, they can't catch up.

2.) If you choose so, who gives a damn really? Are you CHOOSING to take the solo experience? If so, shut the hell up, the idea of a MMO is to play with people, meet new people and to progress your character. If you can't meet people or bring people it's your problem, go play a SPRPG.

3.) So ToR should be like every other MMO out there? You jackasses need to group up in a room and discuss a decent argument where you can present proof and not your half thought out opinions. This is not the game for you. If you don't want a MMO that gives you choices find another MMO out there.

4.) The ironic part is the vets wanted SWG to be changed. Was you not on the boards to see the "It's not star warsy enough" arguments? You're absolutely oblivious aren't you? It needed a change, it was hemorrhaging subs every day. You vet's are just impossible to please, which is why you have a forum to sit in all day to talk about what you THINK you want, when in reality you haven't a clue.

5.) What are you talking about? What you see is people interested in playing the game currently. While people like you take offense to people finding something they may enjoy. Bro, if you don't like the game, again, find another game. I'll bet BioWare could care less about you, they're not targeting SWG vets, who the hell would?

Oh, see you in-game.

1. Hubris, plain and simple. Oh I was like you once, thinking that MY company could do no wrong. Ah youthful MMO experience...

2. People choose to do the easier thing, but this game basically IS a SPRPG.

3. We have. People don't like the truth because it forces them to examine their own preferences. You do have choices in this game, and they are dialogue options 1-5. If that's the kind of "choice" you want, great. Go for it.

4. I wasn't on the boards, actually, I was too busy playing the game. Before the NGE, the game was doing just fine with about 300k subs. Us vets weren't impossible to please, we just plain weren't listened to. WoW made people greedy, and that's what the NGE was about.

The truth of the matter is, we had it right, and the failure of SWG after the NGE proved us right, while SOE's public execution become TOR's executive producer. Doesn't take a genius to figure out the issue there.

5. I don't take offense to people finding something they might enjoy. In fact, I'm betting on it with stock in Bioware. I just feel the ethical need to point out that this is a scam. Disagree with me. I'm counting on it. I want you to buy this game. I just believe in being honest, and this is a scam.

It's just funny to me. You can be blatantly honest with people. You can warn them up and down, and STILL they make the stupid decision and make people like me rich.

Not that I'm complaining. I rely on the drones of the world to produce for my benefit and the benefit of others.

Please, enjoy the game, I hope a lot of people do, because I'll be watching the stock closely. If this becomes another WoW, I'll give a toast to it when my stock soars as a result.

Originally posted by Rakarai

If you would rather use a less offensive term for the game, say that you don't like that you can solo, don't go spouting asinine statements saying its single player. Its not single player, and if your classification is any game where there is content you want to do that you don't have to group for...lets see let me list a lot of single player games.

All sandbox games, I don't have to group for the content I want to do, because its what I want to do, I don't need to group. Mortal online, Darkfall, hell lets say  pre NGE SWG for you vets out there. Alright lets also say themeparks EQII, Wow, Aion, Guild Wars, FFXI[Now that they nerfed it]  AoC, War. Has it sunk in yet that your classification of 'single player' is faulty logic?  

According to your logic all those games for the very reason of content I want to do are also single player, do you agree? If yes then alright what game are you playing? If no, then you admit your logic is faulty.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, I'm going to call it as a duck. It's a single player game with multiplayer capability. You could argue that a lot of MMOs are like this, and I wouldn't disagree necessarily. But this one looks like KOTOR 3 with a monthly fee. 

I would dispute pre NGE SWG as being single player. Even outside of groups, you had to rely on other people to heal, buff, and perform other services. I had two accounts at one point so I could fight and craft at the same time. Without other people to interact with, I never would have been able to join a city or run any number of instances in the game.

Some of the others are debatable, but for the most part, you're right, they are single player games in the sense that you don't need a group to level. However, TOR gets a special mention because it doesn't make any bones about it. There's no long term goal of cooperation with other players, it's a story driven RPG with a monthly fee.

Go for it. It's not my thing, but it's going to snare a lot of people initially.

Originally posted by droini

K 1st off this isn't just for u. It's for all the ppl who just want to Troll. Go buy a Mag or what u don't got the 7 dollor's while then let me fill u in on a few thing's. Dana is talking about being the new class in the Noob area. NOT ONLY WILL u have diff buddie's depending on how u treat your buddie will determ if another person would want to join u in your quest and yes u caan even get a a understudy (Pad) Some one if u are a Sith might one day try to take you out to become the Master if he fill's u are getting to (Light Side choices) weak.. But of corse wait there is crafting and AH's and PvP wait no that can't be because  u guy's are saing it's a Single player game. Hmm strange hmm wonder how a single player game will have PvP and fighting for a plantet control. Guess it must be somethig new called what ever u guy's want to TROLL and run your mouth before u even get all the Fact's. Go out buy the new Game Mag's or wait for a Reveiw of a indepth Hands -on preveiw not a hands-on the new class in a Demo pre-made toon. The Story Side is a new part to MMO's that is going to have all you Power lv ppl upset of corse because u don't care about the story just getting to 50 1st so u can say hey look at me I can gank u lol and be the biggest Di** around. AND THEY PUT OUT A 2010 Releise no more TBA hehe of corse  this could mean 12/25/10 Lmao and be pushed back to 2011 But here's Hoping for a Summer 2010 Release

There's so much /fail here I don't even know where to start.

Please, buy the game. Make someone else rich. I'm going to reevaluate my stock options and start investing in Bioware. They've clearly figured out how to dupe the common clay.

I love this stuff. It's like eating lobster in a fancy sea food restaurant knowing that people who make a tiny fraction of your net worth every year are keeping their ilk in line and working for their next bread crumb.

I highly support other people buying this game. It's just that I believe in honesty so that when I go to sleep at night, I can say that I told people, but they made a decision that lead them to their current fate.

Enjoy your game, I know I will! :)

Originally posted by luciusETRUR

Who cares if it's single-player? BioWare makes single-player games that are worth the commitment, I'd pay 15 dollars a month for a single-player game with added content monthly, especially if it was by BioWare

Well, I wouldn't. Call me old fashioned, but single player games with multiplayer elements should be a one time purchase with optional DLC at best.

But you go right ahead and buy it. Like I said, I fully support their ability to get people to give them money.

Originally posted by Rakarai

Does it ever end? Really? Are we still doing this?

Alright as usual I'll bite, how is this a single player game? What qualities does this game have that make it into a single player game? And single player as opposed to what, give me something to compare this game which is 'single player' to a massive multiplayer game.

Then after you do that, please tell me once again how is the fact that Bioware has said there will be cities, and non instanced pvp zones like Ord Martell fits in with your idea of this non massive game.  Or That there will be raids.

You know what I'll save you the trouble.

The game is partially instanced? Oh boy that's totally new and outrageous right? My god how dare they make sure I enjoy some dramatic tension without people going lolololol i ned gold plx.  The game is not fully instanced, just certain events, and people can group for those quests. I  guess grouping isn't multiplayer  because that is  not a real person on the other end you're grouping with its a secret android to make you think its a real person yeah that must be it.

The game has story? So wait....how is giving the  universe you play in meaning, where npc's don't just stand there and say the same text over and over? How is making me love my environment, because I can really get into the depth of the world by giving me choices/consequences as opposed to just do this without a reason why. Yeah you know that is fun, doing crazy quests because someone told me to, story gives me a real reason.

I feel like you people don't read interviews or reviews and just take short quotes and use them out of context to support your views which have no real backing. Like I said go on, provide me some proof give me a full link to a real article saying that there will be no grouping, no raiding, no interacting in a city, or no pvp in a non instanced zone. Go on give me some article from a reliable source, come on if you guys all think your opinions are infallible that you have to yell them enough to warn us of the horrid of its single player gameness, then go on show me an article. I mean if you believe in your claims that much, you should have some sort of backing to it no?

The short answer to what you're asking is that people like me, who have been playing MMOs for more than a decade, are able to recognize this stuff when they see it after being scammed several times by SOE, Mythic, and Funcom.

This is a single player game. It might have multiplayer elements, but so do most single player games out there, and you don't have to pay a monthly fee to play online. Instances don't have anything to do with it. The fact of the matter is, story or not, instances or not, you're going to be playing most of this game solo. If I wanted a story, I would play a single player game, or I would read a book. MMOs are supposed to be about other people, real people, not dialogue option 3 combined with dialogue option 2 and dialogue option 1 from previous NPC conversations.

Oh, you're a Jedi? Me too! Did you pick dialogue option series 3,2,5,2,1,3 or series 2,4,2,2,1? Really?! Me too!

It's just so sad. And that's not even getting into its executive producer who was fired from SOE for his handling of the outcry against the NGE in SWG. But we don't need to go into that; it speaks for itself.

I don't feel like I have to warn anyone. Buy the game. Pay Bioware $15 a month for a generic "MMO" with a star wars skin. I promise I don't care. I'm just enjoying this massive hype that's going to come crashing down when the game launches.

And the house of cards come crashing down with the realization that TOR will be a SINGLE PLAYER game that you pay $15 a month to play.

I've got to tip my hat to Bioware, this is a great scam. Get all the KOTOR fans and Star Wars fan nuts to buy your game and charge them a monthly fee for what will essentially be KOTOR 3.

Bravo. I'm not falling for it, but enough people are that it's sure to make a mint. As a capitalist, I'm highly supportive of taking advantage of the stupidity of the common masses.

Originally posted by Interesting

Any MMORPGs where we dont roleplay a mass murderer?

Can't say I've ever roleplayed a Mass Murderer before in an MMO, and I've played quite a few.

Of course, if you consider all killing "Murder", even in self-defense, then I can't help you there. 

Sounds like a loaded question more than anything else.