Originally posted by Lansid

 “The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one” ~Wilhelm Stekel

He has a lot of good quotes, but this one has always stuck with me... especially pertaining to the question. In a MMO, I don't mind being "A" hero (actually if I'm roleplaying I prefer to be a villain), but find it cheesy when a MMO depicts every toon as "THE" hero. I like to forge my own path in a game... not just be "the chosen one" and my destiny is to destroy the most ultimate of evils to save the town, because the other 99,999 people playing might just not fit the bill.

I could not agree with you more bud, 

Also the two previous posters were in my opinion spot on as well.  They don't want to be the grandiouse saviour.  It does not fit in with the epic scale of an MMO.  However, there are roles for these players.  My 'dream game' is for an MMORPG to mean quite literally that; a Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.  What if instead of the standard hero and villian classes, you had support roles.  A herald who had to travel to enemy terrain.  He would face many dangers, but perhaps another class could be a mercenary, paid to protect him.  And what if the quests were dynamic and actually meant something to the game?  If the herald and mercanary succeeded to  get to the enemy, then they would have to perhaps deal with an enemy class, the diplomat.  Whose ultimate decision could result in a battle or skirmish.  There are loads of these scenerarios and it would make for a vibrant colourful world.  The dev's would instead of working on new emotes, or silly mounts, could provide contigincy clauses.  The herald scenerio would be one that could be done in several places, without having to actually have to change the entire game.   The introduction of subclasses, like kidnapper, or burglar for the rogues class would add further dimensions.  Imagine having to kidnap the said herald before he reached the diplomat in the first place?  A lot of this we could do in a slightly sandbox environment, whilst the devs kept the main story lines running.

You would still have your hardcore enthusiasts catered for.  Who is going to run the armies?  Clear the forests and lands of creatures so the lesser combat classes could progress freely?  Gear?  Each class would have it's own versions of how to better itself.  The assassain who managed to slay the Orc King and get the awesome drop of the century; the cloak of kings, so she could be invisble for a while, and also show off a unique piece of gear.

Gold farmers could be tax collecters, chasing the poor villagers around for their money.

DM's could enter the game with unannounced but worldwide events.  Or merely come through the promenade as the king, giving every top ranked assassain the chance for glory.

The ideas are endless, and with all of the revenue companies like Blizzard get, they could be created.  Forego graphics if it is going to demanding technically.  I am sure we would gladly sufffer a WoW or EQ2 that played like that.

The OP has got a very good question.  Take all of the counter arguements so far.  Oh it is for the staff, maintence, game support, customer support.

Erm, I beg to differ.  I think these guys could run something like WoW on about 3 bucks a month.  Maybe with their sub base of 11 million plus, they could go free to play,

But that would be crazy right?

Have any of you guys played Lineage 2?  Actually it's a total nightmare, hardcore grindfest, but they have a huge player base, and it's a bloody expensive turn fee.  Somthing like £!5 a month in UK, and that is ridiculous, about $20-25 bucks.  That game does not have constant expansion packs, and loads of changes.  It has about a hundred quests in the whole game!   Then take a game called Shaiya.  It is, I kid you not, almost a carbon clone of Lineage2.  The exact same graphics (which are quite good actually) and even same monotonous gameplay and sound.  I think it is even cooler than L2 because it has permadeath.

Now how can they justify one over the other?  Okay Shaiya has the shop system, but when has ANY mmo never had some gold spammers, which is just the same thing. 

I love WoW, I truly do. But just think that if all those millions Blizzard scoop up every month went towards making new games, we would have had several classics by now.  Think of it.  We'd be on Starcraft 3, Diablo 4, heck, prob Warcraft 5, and we'd be getting ready for WoW2.  But they are greedy, like all major corporations.  Why do you think the banks ditched us into a global recession?   So yeah, WoW is a great game.  Looks and plays like shit, and has an arcane playing system.  But whilst those figures keep rising 12 million next month?  What would you do?  I think I would churn out some non-descript part of lore from an old Warcraft game, much to the developers' groans, and get them to make a new expansion.  Retail it at almost the same price as a contemporary game, and piss myself laughing all the way to the bank.

Btw - you guys should not that I am genuinely a hypocrite.  I do play and sometimes enjoy WoW, as well as other MMO's.  But just give us the day when we can have a fully fledged Mass Effect/ Dragon Age MMO that is like an actual world with proper dynamic stories. 

Originally posted by LynxJSA

I think there's a lot that feel the same way you do, so if you come across any MMOs that you feel break the mold and do it well, come back and post about it. Would be interesting to hear your take on them, and it might introduce some new MMOs or old diamonds in the rough to the rest of us!

Before I went on my sabbatical, ahem, there was talk of a couple of things, but I did now know enough, nor care really in some instances.  There was always the continuing squabble over Darkfall, and I still have not checked it out, so I cannot comment.  Don't even know who won the arguement between the flamers and the fanbois, although I suppose it is still going on to this day.

In fact, I would not be surprised if our great, great grandchildren are picking up weapons to fight about whether Tasos is a Greek twat.

I heard something atually quite good about an ISP that would never have inspired me.  Believe it or not it was Stargate, a film I hated (although a great Scottish actor Robert Caryle is in the new one, an' ez pure barry in it by the way, any wan say i isnae an' they'll get  malkied ootside, awright?) 

Seriously though, it was apparently going to be tackled in a completely novel way, taking the gameplay away from mundane combat-centric style, to more intruiging things like puzzles or some such.  I cannot remember at the moment, and I have to run because i think some baw bag is trying to knick my 360.

Originally posted by LynxJSA

 

Play something other than the EQ/WOW-style MMOs. WURM, ATITD, EVE... hell, even Puzzle Pirates.  I'm not saying that EQ and WOW are bad, in fact, I find them both to be very well made MMOs. What I'm saying is that if you want to find different gameplay you need to explore beyond the DIKU-based fantasy games.

The problem is that I've tried most everything out there.  But I do think you have a valid point of view, and the irony is that I am downloading EVE at this very moment, albbeit this will be my third attempt at it.  You know there is an awesome game waiting to be played, but it takes bloody forever to learn the ropes and get into it.

I suppose I want my cake and eat it.

Originally posted by gamer2171

I like birds with long necks and long legs....really cool, they just kind of strut around..*caw caw*.  But no, I would not like to transform or rp one.  (j/k)

I like birds with long necks and long legs too.. chickens which just strut around.. 'caw' caw'. But no, I would not like to eat chicken for the rest of my life!

The cliches begin the second an MMORPG trailor begins.  Two sides (maybe three) locked in mortal combat.  The world is facing disaster.  Will you be the hero who saves us all?

Look at most costly CGI created trailors for the latest MMO.  I'm NOT saying all.  But the bulk of them.  You know what the trailer is going to be like before the opening, tease has began, and yet, we still think it is going to be the greatest thing since sliced bread.  Hey, I'm culpable of doing it myself.  For once could somebody think off something different?  Christ, I bet if you went to a class of eight year olds (who had not already been brainwashed by the crap they watch), they would come out with some more original ideas.

And here's the killer point, in a lot of the AAA titles, they specifically ask, during their fancy CGI clip (with some like Ian MacKlellan, Pat Stewart, or Chris Lee) if you will be the one to save the world.  Alluding to a point that the game can be won. 

Here's a more genuine take.

The screen goes black.  The name of the prestigious company comes forth in glittering colours, with a dramatic sound.  Then a caption or two will emerge  Something about the world being torn in two, the narrater, let's give Mr Terrence Stamp this gig pipes up. 'The Orb of Johan has been destroyed, without its magical powers the forests will die, the farms will turn to desert'  meanwhile some melancholy soundtrack plays in the distance, and we see the first proper CGI.  Pictures of elves dying, of the farmers starving, etc. Then we fade to black again.  Mr Stamp proclaims, 'can nothing save the planet frp, the invidious Mordrorls?'. 

Suddenly, the CGI leaps into life again, this time the soundtrack is meanacing as various different races and classes (so we can get a glimpse of what they will be in the game) begiin to fight) oh it is so exciting and cool these fight scenes and we are getting all the info about the game we need during it (at least enough to keep the forums buzzing for months).  Then the screen fades to black again.  Just when we think the trailor is over.  Mr Stamp in the form of some glowing being proclaims; 'The Orb shall be reforged!  Who amongst you is the chosen one?'.  Dramatic music ends, we get a brief credit screen. And the executives all begin to cream themselves (especially at the initial press launch).

So now we got the same old stuff.  Two factions, fighting over this orb, which has mysteriously (by the act of an evil god say) been shattered into a million bits.  In order to 'save the world' we have tp choose our character. good or bad, race, class. And start these inane bloody quests.  'Hello there sir,' says a passing farmer  'I seem to have lost my prized, golden carrots, could you find them for me for say 3 copper?' Don't think the quests get any different just because you get more powerful. 

Anyway, so we've got our two factions, etc, probably hundreds of miles away from each other.  And this grand quest for the Orb of  Bollocks. Now if too many off one faction gets the orb, something mysterious happens and the bad side manage to retrieve a piece or two back.  It won't matter anyway, that's the excuse for the pvp.  In order to actually get on of the million parts of the Orb, you will have to go through a trillion side quests, collecting nonsense other junk which he will have to trade in.  The mayybe he will be permitted into the hallowed instance, where one of the piecies is kept.  Big raid. one side bets the boss, gets some snazzy equipment (which will be unltimately redundent when the next expansion pack comes out)  there is a world proclaimation on the server that one of the goodies retrieved a piece of the Orb.  Probably some pouncy raiding guild.

And there we go, status quo.  Is this the best we can do?  I'm bloody sure the companies will never change it whilst the subscriptions come in.

And the original question still stands?  Who is the hero/villian who is going to save/destroy the world?  Because it cretainly won't be a paying subscriber that's for sure.

I've been away for the scene for about a year.  Seems as though bugger all has changed.  When's a company going to have the balls to do something with this genre?  You know why I am angry?  Because it has the potential to be the fore-runner of every game in the future.  Think of it, 3d, or holographic vision with us in about 10 years, you'll be sitting around your compute rather than at it.  We already have real life satelite technology that can show us anywhere on the earth.  The MMORPG is the 8-bit  version of the future of entertainment.  Imagine with a plastic scope actually delving through the holograph of the actual houses of parliament, in order to thwart a terrorist. (Prob a bit more of an FPS that one, but you get the idea).

Whilst we are out grinding for gold, and talking crap to each other, just think what the devs could be doing if they had the licence.  Of course, the technology is not really going to be here for a decade or two.  Do you still want to be doing the same shit, but in 3D, and with super realistic graphics. (Actually I do, but you know what I mean).  Why do they grey suits always have to decide.  Just because they are so super greedy tp take a punt on something new.

And before anyone says anything.  I love this genre.  It has the potential to be truly groundbreaking.

Originally posted by UNATCOII

 

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Originally posted by randomt

 

And lastly, 99% of crafters are solo players in exactly the same way as someone who goes off to adventure solo. Both do their thing, then come back to town, hit the markets, deal with the community in some form or other, then go back to doing their thing.
 

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Amen.

If you're a dedicated crafter and seller, the game is a solo enterprise. When I played EQ2, the guild owner has 3 accounts, and that's about 30 crafters. He spends his days and nights leveling them, and has a goal of controlling the market (or most of it). That's his game. He chit chats, and sometimes comes out to help, but his game play is crafting and the market. Same can be said of countless others with a great tradeskill side to their MMO.

Still hoping for a MMO with a tradeskill side that's just as dedicated as the adventure side (with the best gear made by true professionals, not just anyone powerleveling), nor just tacked on as an afterthought to appease some crafters (and treating them like dirt with crappy stuff to make -- and thinking crafting is putting the mats inbetween mobs). :(

Exact;ly, and this is kind of the conclusion I was aiming for.  If this trend continues, then I really believe that devs should consider alternative content for the solo player (or any player for that matter) which takes us away from the bog standard fight-level-fight-level routine which we have to endure the bulk of the time.  Surely some creative developers could add some content that broke up this cycle, otherwise I don't see the point.  Sure, it has taken me several years of going through nearly every MMO to figure this out, but everything is basically the same.  Grouping allows this banal routine to be more fun as you are sharing your game with other people, and it can sometimes be a good laugh.  But now that a lot of us are solo-ing most of the time, why won't dev's try something different for a change?  A genuine alternative to the combat/level timesink.  And by that, I don't include the crappy side quests which every MMO throws in during a holiday season.  To me these are just lazy programs brought out every year at the particular festival, and which involve crap quests usually resulting with inane and stupid rewards.  'Oh look! I can turn my mount into a reindeer for 30 seconds!'  oh brilliant!  I remember a couple of years ago in EQ2, they still had the jingle bells theme playing well into febuary!

Originally posted by dterry

Why do people solo? Ever watch The Outlaw Josey Wales? Or maybe Gross Point Blanke?

I want to play in a world with other real people, I just don't want to always hold hands with them and skip down the Yellowbrick road to kill a dragon.

But sometimes I do want to join up with a posse and go smack something.

Here is my problem with the solo-vs-group argument:

Why are we mad at each other? I mean really.... what I want is a game that rewards me for grouping but doesn't punish me for soloing. A game where I can at least advance my character without assistance. Maybe I can't ever kill a big dragon on my own but at least I don't have to stand in a town, hat in hand, crying out for someone-anyone to help me get to level 3489. (sick of level grind - sorry)

I blame the game developers... there should be a way to reach a comfortable middle on this one.

Aye, these are all good and valid points, but my inquiry was not actually about people who mix and match their gaming, (which I do often).  It was to find out if people were solo-ing more than normal, and only grouping if required, as this has been my experience for a few months now, and it seems that more and more devs are designing their games to be played in this fashion.
 

My point is; I'm probably one of the most casual players you will come across.  When I do form groups, I do enjoy my game's session more on the whole, despite the gripes I mentioned in earlier posts.  Now I was not sure if it was just the games I play most; WoW and even moreso Lotro; but it was seeming to me that everbody was just solo-ing.  If this is true, then ultimately the genre will change.  But I thought to myself one night, why am I paying to play this?  I mean, MMORPG's should be the most imaginative and innovative games on the market, yet we get the same old crappy time-sink gameplay. game after game,  Everything in these games is engineered to take us ages to get anywhere - just so that we will keep playing, which in turn makes for banal, mundane games.   It's very frustrating. especially when you think what MMO's could be like in 10 years time or so (like espionage games which use photo-realistic and geographical cities - just an example, or virtual heade-sets that put you in the world), that kind of technology is coming, and this genre could be the best to put a use to it - (imagine a teamspeak, where your voice comes out as an orc's?).

However at the moment, I feel that the scene is stagnating, despite WoW's record sales.  Yes, I am a casual player, but I don't want my game to spoon feed me.  I mean, in the new expansion pack for Lotro- Mines of Moria, which is intended for level 50-60, I had entered Moria at level 46 and had done several quests, got to 47, done some more (all solo) before no more quest givers would give me any more until I am a higher level.  Far too easy, and so no need to group.  No grouping - less and less society - which leads to what?  People paying to play a banal game just to 'compete' with a bunch of strangers?  Jez - these dev's make their money easy.

Originally posted by wjrasmussen

Originally posted by Majestico

Originally posted by wjrasmussen

Originally posted by nomadian

 

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Originally posted by wjrasmussen

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Originally posted by Majestico
Whether by design or not, I just had to wonder why someone would choose to play an MMO mostly solo.

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And yet they do that. So they don't seem to have a problem with it. So if there is a problem, it's yours.

 

Perhaps it would be better if you just minded your own business and let people enjoy games they way that like to enjoy them and for yourself to enjoy what you enjoy.

 

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god's sake he's genuinely interested in the reason why people solo, he already admitted it's their game and people can play how they want.

 

He also put a restriction on some answers.  IMO, that is just playing forum games.

 

Sadly, you had neither the patience or the understanding to grasp my discussion matter.

First of all,  you took a minute quote from my post and mis-represented my arguement.  Did you even read what I wrote?  Or were you so desperate to try and nullify an issue, I don't think you undersrood?

If you had taken the time to actually read my post before retorting (kind of what people do in a debate - they wait for to hear the person's arguement before making up their mind), then you would have understood that I am not bashing anyone's playing style.  I for one solo for quite a lot of the time, and I was curious as to this was going to be an increasing phenomenon, (which is ironic seeing as the genre is socially based).

Of course all of this was oblivious to you, and only became apparent when Nomadian illustrated how vapid and malicious your first post was.

At which point, I figure you actually went back and read my original post, and possibly skimmed some off the other posters who had contentions with my post.

This was done I guess so that you could try and redeem some form credit for not coming across as an illiterate moron, which in your final statement you lost any fragment of cred, and revealed to all that  you are one of the multitude of people in today's society that need to learn to read before trying to rubbish someone's opinion.

And for your information, I did not put any restrictions on people's answers, I merely did not want to hear the same reasons that people solo, as I do!  Otherwise what would be the point?  My interest was in why some people solo - ALL THE TIME!  It interests me because I think there is something odd happening in what is supposedly a 'social gaming genre' and wanted to hear these people's views.  I expressed that I did not want to hear things like, 'ye I someyimes solo a lot, because I have not a lot of time'. and the other examples I gave - simply because I AM one of those people.  Understand now?

As for your statement of forum games?  I'm sorry, I am the one who does not understand this time, am are curious to what you mean?

And to everyone else who thinks I have been too hard on this guy?  Well I am sorry, but when you try and start a serious debate, only to have some nugget try and de-rail it after the first post.  Puts me off.

Now, I'm off to bed.

Hey, you are the one who can't figure it out despite the fact that people do solo.  What you don't see is that this isn't the first time this topic has been brought up.  Usually it's from a guy who doesn't like how soloing has killed his idea of the proper way to play the game.
 

Soloing can be fun. And soloing in an mmorpg doesn't have to be the same as in a crpg.  For example, someone might be one of those people who play the market.  Buying and selling for profit.   Hard to do in a crpg.

Sorry it has taken me so long to respond to your latest intellectual masterpiece, but I never noticed it amongst the other, more interesting posts.

First off - I really hate it when someone says a lame comment about a topic having been discussed before.  That was their discussion, and I was not a part of it.  I am not going to use the search engine so I can look one up, and see if it has any relevance to my question, do you know why?  The reason being that is a FORUM!

A forum is a place where people come to debate issues, and have conversations (in the case of this one it happens to be about MMORPG;s).  I believe it comes from roman times, when the senate would gather in their 'forum' to discuss the issues of the day.

That is why I don't mind when I see the same subjects being discussed a lot of the time.  Sure, there may have been hundreds of like minded conversations (topics like, the next WoW beater, etc)  and I don't feel the need (like many sad people do) to actually enter their discussion merely to post something like ; 'you know this topic has been done before?'.  What do these guys get out of that anyway?  Do you think that everyone who was having the discussion is going to read that post and think, ' My God, he's right! Let us stop this discussion right away and go and read some of the older ones!'.

You keep refering to me having some sort of 'problem' trying to figure out about solo-ing.  Have you actually read any of my posts?  I am not trying to compare solo-ing in MMO's to single player rpg's.  However in actual fact, MMORPG's were originally a concept to enable people who played crpg's - and also many of them also played pen and paper rpg's and MUDS, so that they could all play together, (not necessarily in a group, although that was probably expected as where is the fun in playing D&D with one player?).   And I wish I had been on the net during that time so I could have been a part of those glory days of EQ and UO.

What I was trying to rreference with the crpg, was why can't devs include more things into the game world to make it more fun?  Other than just combat?  I use Fable 2 a lot as an example.  There could be loads of fun stuff to do in an MMORPG rather than just combat, and it would make it more fun also to solo.

As to my original question?  I don't have a problem with people solo-ing, as you would know if you read my posts (I solo much more than I group).  Then after I went back and played some next-gen games, I began to question why I was paying these companies subscriptions, when basically all there is to do is kill stuff, no matter how you dress it up.  And not even in a fun way either, as the companies have to make combat slow so that it takes longer to level (everything in MMO's is designed to take up time, so that you keep having to sub).  I mean, have you never wondered why most if not all of these games are merely pressing hot-keys allocated to a skill?  That's not proper combat.  Where is the MMO that has proper fighting, even if it was like diablo, or Fable 2, Force Unleashed.  They could do it, and it would be great fun.  But it be too quick for them.

So now I wondered if more people are just simply solo-ing, and wanting to have a discussion about it, to see if it was just me, or it really was happening more.  I was also interested to hear reasons why people who NEVER group play MMO's.  I was/am genuinely curious.

Originally posted by UNATCOII

 

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Originally posted by Majestico
But when I play so  many great single player games, I have to wonder the incentive for the solo gamer.

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Huh?

If you play "so many great single player games" and don't know why, why ask others for a reason to explain it???

I play solo for no commitments; can harvest to abandon; can craft to abandon; and simply not have to deal with the 10000001 soap operas MMOs bring with it (enough of it in RL as it is). Basically, the only BS I want is from that beastie that looks tempting to get his hide to craft out of.

Not everyone is interested in killing everything for "lewtz" (frankly, that's getting quite o-l-d to me, as if I needed to kill so much and in a group/raid, I would be playing a FPS game).
 

I don't understand what you are getting at.

You have taken my qoute out of context.  I was wondering why there is so much great content in single-player games that could easily be added to MMO's so that solo-ing would be a much more interesting experience. 

Originally posted by spdkilla

I solo often at least in WoW (i mostly group up in CoX) for many of the reasons already listed but the whole group rush to finish quickly is what i dislike the most. I like to have fun when i play fun for me may be attacking a mob 5 or 10 lvls over me just to see if i can take them or how long i will last before i die that is NOT something you would want to do in a group. I also like exploring new zones (just sight seeing) also not really group friendly except in CoX. I also like the ability to go afk for a few min whenever i need to for RL issues ( which is not as big an issue in CoX as in WoW). I also think the LFG system in some games really need to be re-thought love the 1 in CoX hate the 1 in WoW. And NO i am not a WoW basher I currently play and i like WoW (WotLK is fun Go DK's)  it just seems to be more difficult to get and keep a group in WoW. I also think that content should scale according to group size many mmo's don't seem to do that (CoX does WoW doesn't) but then we get into instancing vs non-instanced and i don't want to start that up agian on this forum...... I think what was said about some games setting quests up for solo and full group is right on the money a bit of scalable content for each quest might help a bit. TBH i would really like to group more but on some games it seems the problem with grouping is the people you have to group with....   That said i still love MMO's and the concept on which they are built. They just seem to be missing a few things IMO. It seems like a LOT of good ideas are spread out over a LOT of different MMO's we just need to wait till 1 is made that puts most of them together under 1 MMO.

To sum up my thoughts grouping has a number of glaring flaws and negatives and a few positive ones in many of the MMO's i have played not sure if this was done on purpose or if this is just a side effect of the way the games were made or the way they are being played by the gaming community. Then again it could be all those things and a lot more meh.... now i am rambling again ...   Fine i will stop interesting topic as always.

... and BTW if any one is wondering : WoW = World of Warcraft

                                                   CoX = City of Heroes + City of Villains

                                                           DK's = Death Knights

P.S - Neither my Spellchecker or Grammer checker is working  

Nice answer.

I totally agree with you about how groups always seem to want to rush to complete an instance, as though it were some race,  Just because one of the team may have played it before, it should not prevent  everyone else from taking in the vistas and enjoying any cut-scenes.  Or worse, when there is a quest giver in the dungeon, and everyone just hits accept!  I REALLY hate that.  I want to read the text so that the quest has some context, and that all of the graphical nuances that the dev's may have added due to this, or not lost on me, just because everybody hit 'accept' and ran off.

Also, I also like to solo and take my time exploring new zones.  As I've stated before, I am not against solo-ing, as I do it more than I group.  It's just that grouping seems to be happening less and less, and even when you do, there is not the same sense of comaraderie that their used to be.

If dev's are angling games more towards the solo player. then why can't they add more interesting things to do (like in Fable 2?) just to keep the gameworld alive and fresh?

Originally posted by neonwire

Most mmos are designed in the same way that single player games are. They tell you a story and you follow the path from beginning to end. The other people in the game are not part of the story and as a result there is no real incentive to involve yourself with them. Parts of a game may very well be easier with a group......in fact some parts of a game may require a group......but in most cases teaming up with people is merely an option that is actually secondary to the game.

The stories in mmos are geared towards the individual player. Every person in the game is playing their own personal copy of the same game. I personally like to get immersed in whatever game I am playing and I find that talking to other players actually breaks that feeling of immersion. It just seems really silly to me to have to go to the effort of comparing my quest list with their quest list and then both having to decide on what we are going to do and then 10 minutes later one of us has completed the quest they needed to do......but hang on! I still need to complete the "Collect 10 crabs" quest......but they have already done that quest and they are off to do the "Bash 20 Boars" quest.....and I dont want to do that quest as I finished it yesterday.......so we part company and I have to repeat the same old crappy conversation with the next Mr or Mrs Anonymous.

So I dont bother with that crap most of the time and just plough my way through the quests on my own and only bother grouping up if I really feel the need to. I think this is why many people dont bother chatting to each other when they are in a PUG. Afterall why should they? What are they gonna say which hasnt already been said before a billion times?

"Hello. Doing the Crab quest? Yep me too. Lets go. Done it. What do you wanna do next? Oh I've done that. I dont wanna do it again. It was boring. I'm off to bash some boars. Cya"

When mmos move away from the single player design concept and actually move more towards being actual roleplaying games where people need to talk to each other and communicate their thoughts in detail to achieve their goals then things will probably change.......but as mmos cater to the solo player then we will continue to see people playing them solo. Cant blame them for playing the game the way it has been designed.

Although you put across a sound arguement, this is exactly what I do not understand about people who play MMO's solo.

Let me explain.  I am a casual player, and have found myself solo-ing more and more.  The irony is that my favourite part of the game is teaming up with a bunch of like minded players and exploring the world together, and tackling any quests that get thrown in our way.

Now I don't know which company started this 'casual - solo friendly' trend, I figure it might actually have been Lotro (my current no 1 game).  I then began to notice that it was not just me that was not teaming up, it seemed to be common.  And when any group did form, it was like a mad race to finish the instance!  Hey there is a quest giver- let's ignore the text and just accept (which I hate).  I mean, what is the rush?

So like you, I solo a lot.  And then I thought, 'wait a miute, I am paying money for the priveldge of this?'.   Oh, but people like to solo, so that they can explore the world, and do the same bog standard quests, and kill monsters, and well, that is about it!  Now - let us compare this with a game like Fable 2, I played that game for hours the other night, and did literally dozens of fun things, too many to write here, and none of which even involved combat, or repetitive play! 

Seriously - after playing that game, I have realised that we are getting screwed by the MMO companies.  They could easily populate their games with fun and intriguing things for us to do, rather than just the mindless crap we already do.  Why not include casinos?  Bar-room games?  Proper story-lines?  Proper in game jobs?  Real estate management?  Aging characters?  Wandering incidents so that your explorations would never be the same?  And the most easy for any dev to implement, and which would have have the most dramatic effect in game - player alignment!

These are just a few suggestions.  There could be a million more, and with new innovations every month to keep a game fresh.

This genre has without doubt the most potential of any out there, but it is stagnating, has been for a while now.  Whilst we are content to keep forking out our monthly cash for the same brain-dead crap, do you really think any company is going to change?

For a genre that relies on being social - it is a sad state of affairs that it is its own society that is letting it down.

Will Darkfall offer the next genetic leap?  Not if the moronic kids who just want to grief everyone flood it.  Which would be a great shame.

Should everything be combat-centric?  Perhaps the answer lies elsewhere.

I think Neonwire said it best with his last paragraph:

'When mmos move away from the single player design concept and actually move more towards being actual roleplaying games where people need to talk to each other and communicate their thoughts in detail to achieve their goals then things will probably change.......but as mmos cater to the solo player then we will continue to see people playing them solo. Cant blame them for playing the game the way it has been designed.'
 

I know that Bioware are making a MMO, (actually wish it was not in the SKOTOR Universe, even though I am a fan).  If any of them will bring something new to the table, then hopefully it will be these guys.

Originally posted by wjrasmussen

Originally posted by nomadian

 

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Originally posted by wjrasmussen

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Originally posted by Majestico
Whether by design or not, I just had to wonder why someone would choose to play an MMO mostly solo.

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And yet they do that. So they don't seem to have a problem with it. So if there is a problem, it's yours.

 

Perhaps it would be better if you just minded your own business and let people enjoy games they way that like to enjoy them and for yourself to enjoy what you enjoy.

 

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god's sake he's genuinely interested in the reason why people solo, he already admitted it's their game and people can play how they want.

 

He also put a restriction on some answers.  IMO, that is just playing forum games.

Sadly, you had neither the patience or the understanding to grasp my discussion matter.

First of all,  you took a minute quote from my post and mis-represented my arguement.  Did you even read what I wrote?  Or were you so desperate to try and nullify an issue, I don't think you undersrood?

If you had taken the time to actually read my post before retorting (kind of what people do in a debate - they wait for to hear the person's arguement before making up their mind), then you would have understood that I am not bashing anyone's playing style.  I for one solo for quite a lot of the time, and I was curious as to this was going to be an increasing phenomenon, (which is ironic seeing as the genre is socially based).

Of course all of this was oblivious to you, and only became apparent when Nomadian illustrated how vapid and malicious your first post was.

At which point, I figure you actually went back and read my original post, and possibly skimmed some off the other posters who had contentions with my post.

This was done I guess so that you could try and redeem some form credit for not coming across as an illiterate moron, which in your final statement you lost any fragment of cred, and revealed to all that  you are one of the multitude of people in today's society that need to learn to read before trying to rubbish someone's opinion.

And for your information, I did not put any restrictions on people's answers, I merely did not want to hear the same reasons that people solo, as I do!  Otherwise what would be the point?  My interest was in why some people solo - ALL THE TIME!  It interests me because I think there is something odd happening in what is supposedly a 'social gaming genre' and wanted to hear these people's views.  I expressed that I did not want to hear things like, 'ye I someyimes solo a lot, because I have not a lot of time'. and the other examples I gave - simply because I AM one of those people.  Understand now?

As for your statement of forum games?  I'm sorry, I am the one who does not understand this time, am are curious to what you mean?

And to everyone else who thinks I have been too hard on this guy?  Well I am sorry, but when you try and start a serious debate, only to have some nugget try and de-rail it after the first post.  Puts me off.

Now, I'm off to bed.

Yes, this is a leading question. 

I finally got a next-gen console and have been in heaven so far with Mass Effect, Fable II, Lost Odyessy, The Force Unleashed, and to a much lesser extent; Quake 4.

Now as you may be aware from my sig, my main MMO at the moment is Lotro.  Which I have noticed panders more and more towards the solo friendly player.  Now before anyone bombards me with posts about Lotro being a casual friendly game, etxc, I alreadt know this.  It was one of the reasons why I choose it.

However, I have noticed more and more that this 'casual' style of play has been getting morphed more and more into the solo play tag.

Whether by design or not, I just had to wonder why someone would choose to play an MMO mostly solo.

And please bear in mind that hear is where the question is aimed.  To those people who blindly ignore any other player, unless of course a quest is required.  Oh, you need a party to finish off an epic story, then I'll grab a PUG, say very little. if anything, and then bugger off when the quest is done.

Now, please do not answer with posts such as: 'well sometimes I like exploring and doing things on my own' that is very well, and I do it myself, or posts like 'well sometimes I only have an hour to play,'.  Or the classic; 'I like to play in a MMO by myself, and like the idea that the other people are real!' - shy people in an environment that is geared towards you throwing off any social inhibidtions and allowing you to be anyone you want!

So. strictly for those who I initially mentioned.  The ones always solo, unless they absoloute;y have to group.  Why?  Is it some competitive thing?  'Look I can get to max just by solo'.  What reason can there by that makes sense?

Of course, it is your game, and you are entitled to play it any way you choose.

But when I play so  many great single player games, I have to wonder the incentive for the solo gamer.

Serious answers will be appreciated, as I am genuinely interested.

If Tasos delivers half off what he has promised, then Darkfall could very well be the next (much needed) step in the MMORPG genre.   I wish all the whining about this game would cease now, as ithe arguements have no greater cerebral level than your average playground spat.  For anyone older than the godforsaken years of puberty to involvle themselves in these non-sensical, tedious, childish rants, just gives everyone a clear indication of your social status.

Why not wait, (afterall you've waited this long), and then bicker and bitch about the merits of the game.

Sheesh!  In a world which has seen more global strife than most people can remember, some of you get sp angry about a GAME that you almost froth at the mouth!

Anyway, I hope it is good, and that I will enjoy it.

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by curiindi

The GM gave you advice on removing FFXI using third-party programs?

Reformatting your computer solves all problems!

 

Was probably referring to programs that will go through and remove remnants of programs left behind after being uninstalled. Sometimes there are registry entries that exist after uninstalling, or program folders, etc. etc.

There's programs like CCleaner, which is free and can scan your PC and/or Registry for irrelevant stuff and then will remove it for you.

It's actually pretty common. I go back and manually remove that kind of stuff after uninstalling almost any software I've had on my system.

 

You are correct MIke.

I had bought a brand new copy of FFXI complete with expansion packs.  Now when I tried to install it, (first tried to install PlayOnline), an error message came up and it failed to install it.

Basically this error message was as a result that there were still some remnents of the old copy still lurking inside my pc, even although I had used the add/remove facility to remove them.

When I spole to a GM they recmmended me a program that would help me clear the old copy from the registry, but that never worked either! 

I shall try the one that you suggested, and failing that I will probably just get rid of my new copt of FFXI. :(

Let me first start off by saying that my first MMO was EQ2.   I loved it, and it got me hooked into the genre.  Now my girl-friend was playing also, and I just wanted to try something else.

Having been a life-long fan of the FF series I just had to check out FFXI.  I was still a relative newbie to the scene, and as you guys will know, there are few games out there which are anywhere near as demanding as FFXI.  Basically it is a MMO monster!

I had some great times there, even though I did not really know what I was doing half of the time!

Now though, a couple of years down the line, and having tried nearly all of the other games on the market, I wanted something that was truly challenging.

My current sub is with Lotro, which is about as far as it gets from FFXI in the terms of casual versus hardcore.  I do love Lotro, but it is far too easy.

Now I want to get my teeth into something. Now, Lotro has one of the best story-lines any MMO has to offer.  However, from past experiences I know that FFXI also has a very good story.  So with Lineage 2 being my other choice (and I played it for only a month, and realised there was very little in the way of a story), I decided to return to FFXI.

So I went out and bought the Vana'diel Collection.  I know it will take me ages to even get to the expansion packs, but I love to explore, and the knowledge that they are there waiting for me to try will drive me on.

I was looking forward to meeting my old Red Mage, and so put the discs into my drive to re-install the game.

Then the problems began...

It seems that when I removed FFXI a while back, for some reason they did not disappear from my hard-drive.  Therefore I cannot re-install them.

I've tried everything I can think off, even following a GM's advice and using third-party programms to remove them, but to no effect.

Please, please, please, can someone help me so that I can get this game back into my machine properly, so that I can return to the beautiful lands of FFXI?

Originally posted by tmr819

I am a refugee from WoW and I tend to play solo as a general rule. Yet I never have trouble finding groups for most anything (although instances can be a bit of a problem, grouping-wise).

I really REALLY like the way grouping works in LotRO. I only wish you could "tune" into the LFF channels of other regions, or that the game would add some kind of server-wide LFF channel perhaps.

Because I play numerous alts, no one character levels up very fast. Friends' lists are thus pretty useless to me. I may add a friend on occasion, but everyone -- EVERYONE -- levels up faster than I do, since I'm "simu-leveling" 4 to 6 classes/characters at once and having fun doing so, spending a few days at a time on any one of them.

The way grouping works in LotRO is (forgive the comparison) like a really good "one-night stand". If the chemistry is right, it can be very nice, and sometimes groups have good chemistry and get on a roll, working through a series of quests or else a variety of quests. "Hey, anybody need to do such and so?" someone will ask. And on it goes. The better groups can go on for some time like that, sometimes with people coming and going. I like the way that works. If the chemistry isn't there, though, or too many people drop out at once, people will just go their separate ways. I'm cool with that. I'm really not looking for "long-term relationships" in LotRO. (I'll do that in real life, thanks all the same.)

If I'm feeling "solitary", off I go on my own. There is plenty to do, always.

I think if you are looking for a more warm and fuzzy social kind of interaction, the right kinship is the way to go. For myself, I really REALLY dislike being in a kinship. It's too much social for my taste. And I usually feel obligated to pay attention to the never-ceasing kinship chat. Kinships also add a certain amount of pressure to go do this or that or go help this person or that. No, thanks.

That said, for my tastes, LotRO hits the social thing just right.

I read so many posts here talking about bad PUG experiences. Wow. Are we playing the same game? My PUG experiences are 95 to 98% positive. And that's the only kind of grouping I ever do.

As for Moria, I cannot speak to that, as my highest toon is a 40 champ. But I am having a blast in this game and think the grouping "ethos" in LotRO is just about right as it is. My only complaint is not in the groups themselves, but, as I mentioned above, in the limitations of the LFF system as it now stands. It's OK, but it could sure be a lot better.

tmr819:   I have some good news for you.   There actually IS a global-lff channel.

Like you can imagine, it is a specific channel whereby players (instead of using the normal /lff channel, which is just region based, can actually post there to find willing members to join a fellowship.)

Now the problem is that I still don't know how to join it.  I know that it is something like; /join Global_LFF, or something similar, but I have not been able to suss out the current way to phrase it.  Which is extremely annoying.

This brings us back to the core of the arguement, that being; why do Turbine seem to make it so tricky for us to form fellowships?  Almost as though they are promoting casual/solo play.  I'm not a conspiratist theory kind of guy, but if I were, it would be so that they do not have to design too many raid-like content.

I mean, why is important stuff like this ommitted from the rulebooks?

Take the nice, glossy rule-book that came with the Mines of Moria expansion pack.  I received it a week before Moria went live, and so was looking forward to reading it and learning about everything that was going to be introduced.

To my disgust, this feeble rulebook was basically a shorter version of the one which came with the original Lord of the Rings Online Boxed Set.  Oh, it did have a couple of paragraphs about the two new classes, but to my astonishment, that was it!

Now, bearing in mind that Moria is aimed at veteran players (all of whom already knew everything that was in this so-called rule book), what was the point?

If they did not want to mention anything about Moria, they could have at least taken the time to answer some of the questions which players have, and also give us the key-presses to certain functions that even vets are unaware off.

For instance:  a lot of players don't know that by pressing both alt + f10 keys, a small light shines over your characters head,   very useful in dark places.

Or that when someone who passes you by when you are fighting a mob, they get a tiny bit of xp, and you get less (this in particular would have saved a lot of in-game arguements, when the player was merely trying to help, not realising).

And of course, the global - looking for fellowship channel.

I am sure that there are many others, and these would have been a lot more welcome than just going over the old rules, as if we were all noobs!

Well, from the information you folks have kindly given me, it seems that Fallout 3 is a must have.  Therefore, it will probably be number one of my list.

However, I must say that I am disappointed with people's downer on Fable 2.  I was really expecting this to be my new top game,  I liked the idea of how you could jump into other people's Fable worlds and see how different they were to your own.  I also liked the idea of an alignment system, where your actions actually have some dynamic effects on how the game turns out.   Come to think of it, I think that the MMORPG scene should start to implement alignment more in their games.  It seems like a wasted oppertunity, which creative devs could use.  I know that EQ2 has a limited use of this, but its effect is really just to define which city and side you will beling to.  (Perhaps I shall add a thread concerning this on the Pub forum, as it seems like a wasted oppertunity)

Also, I was really wanting to hear of anyone's experience with 'Tom Clancey's: End War'.  A 'command & conquer type game' that uses player speech to control the game, rather than actual joypad input.  I was curious as to how reponsive it was to player's accents (seeing as how I am Scottish), and also if it required a micro-phone to be bought seperately, or if it came with the game?

Before I forget, there is one more title that has entered the fray, and really put a spanner in the works, as I thought my shortlist of a couple of games had finally been made up.

The game in question is Jason and the Rise of the Argonauts.  I believe it is very similar in play-style to Bioware's masterpiece; 'Mass Effect'.  Now, let it be known that I am a massive fan of this company, and of games like the aforementioned space opera.

Does anyone have any info on it?  Will it be released for Christmas?  I hope not, as it will make my final choice all the more difficult!

Thanks in advance to anyone who can offer any information.

I was a bit disappointed with this thread as I thought I would have had a chance to actually play one of the games.

So, in the spirit of the thread; can someone post a quick and easy game to get into which they think might be the toughest?  At the end of the thread we could vote on which was the most evil, cruel, sheer frustrating one.

I have one which I shall keep up myself for now.

Let the bedlam begin...