Originally posted by troublmaker

I love how people are pretending that The Old Republic is the first MMO to do fully voiced quests.  Age of Conan has had it for years now with better graphics.

Guess we're just sweeping poor little old AoC F2P under the rug.

       EQ2 has voiced npc's and that came out in 2004....

I didn't buy TOR but I beta tested it for 3 months or so...

I'd rate TOR as follows:

As a single player RPG it's an 8.5.. The storylines are very entertaining and fun. Graphics belong in 2000, but I enjoy a good story when playing single player RPG's, which is why it gets an 8.5 "as a single player rpg"

As an MMORPG I'd rate the game a 3.5.. Most of the game is played alone but with some MMORPG elements thrown in..  Very very cheesey and ridiculous If you ask me..

Add those two scores up and divide it by 2 and you get a combined rating of 6.0

IMHO, TOR deserves an overall rating no higher than a (((((((((6.0)))))))))

When you are finished your class quest, fully developing your character, and reached max level, the game becomes a (((1))) If playing your main..

After you complete your class epic quest, you'll quickly find out there's really nothing left to do except roll another class and start over.. 

But the so called experts at MMORPG among others state this sloppy mess of an MMORPG deserves a 8.5 rating??? Seriously??

Who in the world is rating the game? The boss's 8 year old son/daughter?  0-o

As a single player RPG I'd rate it a 8.5

As a MMORPG I'd rate it a 3.5

Combine those ratings together and you have a:

6.0

The game deserves no higher than a 6..

If you played TOR through its storyline, it quickly becomes a 1...

So, after a month or two, no one in their right mind would have any real desire or passion to log on their "main" anymore,, unless your two boxing and plan on power leveling another class. :P

Originally posted by WesKhan1

1) People who have enough money to not care.

2) People whose standards for MMO's are far far far lower than gamers back in the DAoC and UO days.

3) People who don't realize they're condoning bad game development and allowing these developers to continue to milk the bullshit themepark cookie-cutter MMO design that's ruined this genre.

Yup, these people paying for this game are now letting the companies develop a single player game, throw a tiny bit of multiplayer on top, call it an MMO, and then charge $15 a month for it.  And it WORKED.  Prepare for more.

Even though I want to blame the MMO gamers of this age for paying for the games in the first place, it's hard to put the blame on them.  They have different standards and that's all there is to it.  And you can't blame the companies for wanting to make tons of money.  So screw it, gotta accept the complete trash this genre has become.  They won't get my money though.

From Ultima Online to this.  Jesus Christ people just take a look it's not that hard to see.

        I agree 100%, WesKhan...

       We went from legendary MMO's of UO, EQ, and Daoc to straight up crap... EQ2 wasn't bad, but SOE screwed that up by putting in the ridiculous mentor system which IMHO ruined EQ2 for me.. Everything became so much easier when doing dungeon runs, heritage quests, etc..

      I may be waaaay off here, but I personally feel the MMO genre of today combined FPS and MMO elements and what we got is this EZ mode themepark rollercoaster cookie cutter hold your hand, wipe your nose, tie your shoes, pre school mode of hybrid games..

      Personally I was never a real fan of Counter Strike, Doom, Duke Nukem, Rainbow Six, Team Fortress, etc.. I loved RPG's growing up, and was an avid reader of fantasy novels... So when UO came out, it was like living in my very own fantasy world.. Same thing with EQ, even though the content was more structured than UO..

I have friends and family who loved these fast paced FPS games.. Back when I played EQ, none of those friends and family could get into EQ.. They claimed it was a boring waste of time and too hard to play... Guess what? When WoW came out, all of them jumped on the MMORPG bandwagon and most are pretty much now back to playing FPS games like Halo, Call of Duty, Battlefield, etc.. Some still play WoW, a couple are currently playing TOR, but none of them would ever choose to play a fantasy MMORPG like EQ where the main focus is to explore and interact with other people and group up.. They don't like sandbox mmo's, they prefer EZ mode roller coaster rides where they don't have to use their brain to accomplish their goals within the game.. 

This is why the MMO's of today can't really keep subscribers past 3-6 months, unless your playing World of Warcraft.. How many WoW clones have we seen in the past 7 years become a F2P ghost town or remain a sub based ghost town??? Pretty much every single one..  So you do the math and tell me what went wrong.. ^_^

Dev's need to start making games strictly for one type of fanbase. I'm sick of seeing these hybrids.. If you plan on creating a MMORPG which takes elements from D&D and modern fantasy mythology, then please make it a sandbox type of game.. If your main focus is pvp with little pve, then by all means create a epic rollercoaster fps style game.. Don't try to trick your playerbase by saying it's a pve/pvp game that will appeal to both PVE roll playing fans and fps pvp fans!! Because I personally know the game will NOT appeal to both types of gamers.. If it does, it will only be interesting for about a month maybe two at max before we both get bored and come on these forums complaining about what it needs and shouldn't have in game..

Dev's need to seriously go back to the basics in my opinion. Yea their goal is to make lots and lots of money, but they should also care about creating a legendary epic game where players feel happy to log into every day for years, not just a couple months!

To the OP,

Now that 2 million + people have tried TOR and found out just how small the game really is as a MMORPG, I'd wager most people that left Rifts are back now....

To the guy above me, I played with some really horrible clerics in Rifts.. Clerics who had no idea how to properly set up their class to heal.. I remember doing Fae dungeon and we had two clerics in group.. I was the tank, "Pally" so I even had a little healing.. We couldn't get past the first boss because both healers just weren't specced to,,,, heal.. They made themselves dps clerics..

So, just because you play a cleric doesn't mean your a good healer in groups. :P If your specced for soloing, then u might as well not even LFG as a healer... I'm sure most of you hea;ers out there know what i'm talking about..

Originally posted by ezduzit

Why dont you just admin you only played WoW in your MMO lifetime?

       WoW was the 10th or so MMO I've played.. The first was UO, followed by EQ.. Both were the greatest MMO's I've ever had the privilege of playing.. Those two games were legendary in my eyes,, EQ moreso than UO, IMHO...

      I don't really understand why you think I've only played WoW, lol. It's mind boggling really to the point where it's would be pointless trying to argue over.. I've played roughly I dunno, 24 or so MMO's and WOW does rank up in the top 5, but definitely not higher than UO, EQ, DAOC, and EQ2 for me personally...

Originally posted by mrpoepoe

Trains in Blackburrow...dying at the bottom of the sea, EverQuest wasn't a game it was a way of life. No MMO has ever come close to it - great article, very interesting stuff.

 

    I agree 100%.... People today don't understand how EQ felt more of living in a second world than just playing a video game.. Nothing has ever come close to what EQ felt like to me..  In a way, that's a good thing.. If there was a true successor to EQ, I probably would be without a job and homeless right now, lol..  I was so addicted to EQ, I'd normally play for 15 hours straight on average..  In the summer when school was out, there were times I played for more than 24 hours straight,, only stopping to relieve myself and grab something to eat/drink, lol...

I'm sad but also kind of relieved there has never been a game released quite like it.. In my opinion, MMO's are not even close of what they used to be and used to mean to the person.. They are now shallow quick themeparks with no character whatsoever..

Originally posted by Kaocan

Wait, so the reason you lost interest is because you ran out of carrots to lead you around? When you had to play the game instead of being led around by the leash? Amazing. Thats almost as good as the other thread today where people are complaining that there is TOO much leveling content in this game, which they blew past to reach cap, and are now complaining there isn't enough content. You guys are just amazing!

          1) That is the problem with today's generation of MMO gamers... MMORPG's were meant to be a giant sandbox where the player is highly encouraged to "EXPLORE" the land and to be on one giant lifelong "ADVENTURE"  Games like UO and Everquest, both different in their own right but both similar in the fact that the player understood that their character is supposed to feel as If your in a  living, breathing virtual reality world... That's what made MMO's fun for me and many other people who were fans of the genre...

Nowadays, new mmo gamers mainly play the game just to pvp as if it's a fps style of game.. It's sickening.. It would be the same if fps games became more "story" oriented where you actually have to explore, level, and use your brain to proceed throuh the game. Current fps gamers would absolutely HATE to do that, lol...

It seems the OP has become upset due to TOR becoming an actual MMORPG after act 1.. It started to evolve from a single player rpg to an actual MMORPG, and the OP became frustrated, angry, and upset over this... It was to much for him that he canceled his account because the game wasn't playing him anymore.... ??? ??? Meaning, the game wasn't holding him by his little hand and blowing his nose, scrubbing his back, eating his food, combing his hair, tying his shoes, dressing him for school, and basically the game stopped being his little mommy.... LOL

Seriously, mods, devs, and fellow mmo gamers.. Look at what this genre has become.. It's sick and is why I've pretty much given up on MMORPG's.. They are to dumbed down and ez for people like this OP.. And this guy STILL canceled his account the moment the game started to become a MMORPG...  WOWZERS!!!

In the original Everquest, one had to explore the land to find quest givers. There was no shiny marker on the map displaying the quest giver, the location of the mobs he needs to fight, or a path to the destination.. You had to figure this out on your own by using your brain...  Seems this OP would have lasted 20 seconds in this game before becoming angry and canceling his account..

Back then, myself and many other true fans of the mmorpg genre would never want players like this playing thir game. Why? because these types of players do nothing but plague the game. We want those who are intelligent and actually a fan of the genre.. Were here to have fun and enjoy an epic experience.. We don't need players flooding the game who,

A: are not a fan of the  particular game's genre and playstyle

B: Expects a totally different gaming experiene than the way the game mechanics are implemented

C: Wants the game to be what they envision, but complain, cry, rant and rave over why the game in their eyes, "sucks"

I never enjoyed seeing anyone like this in my favorite MMORPG.. It not only creates arguments and problems, it ruins my fun factor and overall enjoyment of the game..  I enjoy seeing people in game who are having fun and enjoying themselves.. It enhances your overall fun factor..  This is what was so great about Everquest. Most people you played with enjoyed everything the game was, and didn't complain regarding what the game was NOT..

Nowadays, one cant even enjoy a game without hearing other people who are currently playing it,  bash and ridicule it for everything it's not..

I dont think they will shut the servers down and do a rollback, lol. That would result in thousands of very upset gamers. Some in which would cancel their accnts. Duping has been around forever, it won't go away. The only way to try to prevent this from continuing is for bioware to figure out the leak and plug it up hardcore.. And try finding those responsible and perma ban their accounts... 

I wouldn't let bioware pay ME to play TOR. ^_^

Honestly, I enjoyed Beta for a while and at the time I figured it was going to be the greatest single player RPG and MMO of all time... Then as I was leveling up, I realized just how one sided the game truly was.. It's more or less the sequel to KOTOR 2 with a rollercoaster mmorpg flavoring sprinkled on top.. 

I was trying to convince myself it will get better as I continued leveling, but everything was pretty much the same.. You really don't need to ever group, but guess u can say that about most so called MMORPG's these days.. MMO's of the past like Everquest, DAOC, Vanguard, EQ2, etc are basically of the past. These newer mmo's focus to much on ez mode soloing and racing to the top only to be disappointed with the lack of a worthy end game...

Anyway, I'm happy I got the chance to test TOR for a nice period of time because if i didn't, I would have bought the collectors edition and played it for a good 2 weeks before realizing how much I've been duped.. 

Those who decide to get the game need to realize its really a single player rpg with some mmo elements thrown in.. Don't expect it to be an awesome sandbox epic masterpiece, because it's not...

OP: Tell us something we don't know. ^_^

Sadly, TOR was never meant to be a sandbox.. It was designed to be a single player RPG with a rollercoaster MMO theme splashed in...

I do NOT support your anti elves, wizards, orcs, etc movement.. Why you ask? Well my friend, fantasy MMORPG's are supposed to be filled with everything that makes up mythology and fiction, hence elves, wizards, dragons, fairies, orcs, goblins, dwarves, magic, etc etc etc.... Without these elements in the game, what will make the game a fantasy mmorpg? lol..

If you want to play a mmorpg like Eve, Love, or any other non traditional fantasy style game, then that's fine, go and enjoy it....  But true fans of mmorpg's are those who started playing them with PnP D&D years and years ago.. My first role playing experience was when I was like 6.. It was the phantasy star series, followed by Shinging Force and Final Fnatasy "mystic quest" 

 In my own opinion, a MMORPG isn't truly a MMOG unless there is an assortment of mythological races, classes, quests, dungeons, and of course a livable breathable online world you share with thousands of other people...

How you felt about Eve is exaclty what I felt the first time I logged into the original Everquest 11 years ago....  To me, that is what a fantasy MMORPG should be...  Anything else isn't truly a fantasy mmorpg, in my mind.. :)

Originally posted by returnintor

I think, personally, having participated in two beta tests, we're going to see a massive dropping off of subscriptions in Month 2 (not Month 1, because people still won't be able to believe how shallow, small and limited the game is after just one month. They'll still be saying: 'This can't be it'). At around the Month 6, EA will be saying: 'Hmmm, let's make it F2P in Month 9".

I agree 100%....  After participating in beta and trying out 4 classes, I realized just how small the game really is.. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the fact its a full single player rpg trying to be a full MMORPG at the same time.. Honestly, I believe the ideas and features of TOR will possibly change how MMO's are made in the future.. Companies will see that in creating a full single player RPG that takes roughly 30-60 hours to complete their "epic class questline" in a subscription MMORPG will benefit the company in the long run... After 6 months, this company can then choose to make the game F2P and still make good money years later.... If the story is good, word will spread.. Then people who are currently bored with the mmo they are playing will go out and buy this newer mmo just for the story... They may even sub for a month two or three to finish their quest line...

BUT, once when they get to the end and realize there is really very little sandbox or even rollercoaster style MMOG elements, they will simply move on....

This is what will happen with TOR.. People will play until their story is over.. UNLESS, bioware is currently now working on new content such as end game raids, massive group dungeons, and pvp elements that will keep players active past the first month or two...

What do I see myself doing 6 months after TOR is released??

Hmm, well If things go according to my little plan, I'm hoping beyond all hope I'll be labeled as one of the many Guild War2coholics!!!!!!!! :)))

If Guild Wars 2 isn't out by then, I'll most likely be playing as a Monk in WoW :))

As for TOR, I literally now have no desire to play the game as a MMORPG... I plan to play throgh my storyline, then when it gets stale within a month, I'll quit..... 

Maybe not expecting anything from TOR is a great thing.. Maybe going into the launch with a mindset that it's mainly a story driven single player rpg will allow me to enjoy the game for what it is, and not complaining and crying over what my little vision can see it becoming...

Personally, after playing Beta for about a month and trying out 5 classes, there literally is nothing in that game I haven't really seen before in another mmorpg..  To me, WoW is actually more fun and addicting with the best lore/story I've ever experienced.. However, this isn't saying that I don't feel TOR's story will be good...  I just don't see this game at the way it was engineered and set up to challenge WoW in the long term...   This time next year I will predict out of the 3-5 million people that purchased the game at launch,,, there will be maybe,, just maybe 500,000 subs left around then.. Some new, and some old...  That's my prediction...

Well, heres to hoping 6 months from now I'll be loving GW2 or still enjoying WoW's new MOP expansion...

WoW lost 1.1 million subscribers this year but still has over 10 million playing it's 7 year old dinosaur game...... Oh NOOOO! Blizzard better hurry and make it F2P!!!  ***sarcasm off***

Lets take a look at every MMO every released.. 7 years later most of these MMO's have become F2P or shut down due to very little interest... WoW loses 10% of its sub base and people are saying it's the beginning of the end?? Seriously? lol... Even with the new MMO's due out, I don't see WoW becoming f2p anytime soon, nor do I see any trouble with blizzard making crazy profits for 2012...

People have to understand it's 7 years old and with age it has gotten even more popular, not the other way around...

I hope Curt Schilling's "project Copernicus" will cater to the old school EQ vets.. Since Curt loved EQ, I imagine he along with Salvatore and company will try to make that game as challenging, and rewarding as possible.. They won't listen to the gamers who want to reach end game within a week or a month.. Hopefully they'll have their own vision and stick to it, no matter what.. 

It's truly the last MMORPG I actually have high hopes for.. Let all the flamers, whiners, and haters say what they will about the game.. I hope to see Curt create the one true EQ Next with their own original revolutionary ideas that will help make this game legendary.. Then hopefully we'll see the MMORPG genre switch back to where it was pre WoW Era...

Originally posted by VirusDancer

• Must get to endgame, that's all that matters.  This other stuff is boring.
• Endgame is kind of boring.  I'm going to roll another toon.
• Man, this stuff is so boring.  Must get to endgame, that's all that matters.
• Dev's put less work into the start and middle.
• Endgame is kind of boring.  I'm going to roll another toon.
• Man, this stuff is even more boring.  Must get to endgame, that's all that matters.
• Endgame is kind of boring.  I'm going to roll another toon.
• Dev's reduce the time it takes to get to endgame.
• Man, glad this is faster - cause this is so boring.  Must get to endgame, that's all that matters.
• Endgame is kind of boring.  I can't roll another toon.  This game sucks.  There's nothing to do in the game.

It's just kind of a massive /facepalm.

            This has to be the most articulate accurate assessment regarding the newer generation of MMORPG's I've ever seen written down.  You sir are a gentleman and a scholar.. /bow

            Dev's need to look at this post before creating the next ez mode rollercoaster MMORPG, period..

 BRING BACK THE CHALLENGE!! I MISS THE GOOD OLD DAYS OF EQ!!

Blame the devs for making games like Rifts to easy to level. When people see how easy the leveling curve is, they are more likely to rush through to max level that much faster...  It's a shame really..  Devs need to make another EQ, where it took months to get to max level. People knew how difficult the leveling curve was, so instead of just trying to breeze through the game, they actually spent their time exploring, setting up camps in dungeons, and making friends by socializing.. Time flies by when your grouped up fighting in dungeons with lots of downtime in between respawns..

Rifts could have been an awesome game.. Unfortunately, the leveling curve was twice as easy as WoW, lol.. It took me about 3 weeks to reach 50,,, and trust me I was playing as casual as I possibly could..  If I knocked out 12 hours a day like I did with EQ so many years ago, I would have reached 50 in less than a week..  That's just ridiculous.. But I feel the Dev's decided to make leveling so easy for the casual gamers, they just forgot about the hardcore gamers.. Not only that, the casual gamers who would log on maybe 2 hours a day were leveling at a fast rate, even they got bored, LOL...

Anyway, I hear ya OP.. I'm waiting for the day Dev's decide to stop catering to the FPS style of gamers.. Meaning, FPS games are all about quick action gameplay where you mindlessly run around to rack up the kills, catch the flag, and rinse repeat.. These types of gamers have migrated to MMO's, so they expect to see the same style of gameplay otherwise they'll cry and whine all over general chat,, just like they did with EQ, lol..  The only problem is, since 2004, many Dev's have chosen to listen to these people instead of the original fanbase who actually enjoys a challenging MMORPG experience.. I've been preaching this for years but we still get the same MMO/FPS hybrid garbage being released where people are interested for about a month, then they move on to something else...   And the Devs stand around scratching their heads wondering what went wrong,, like primates, LOL... 

Originally posted by VirusDancer

EQ sandbox?  Um, EQ is a themepark.  An older themepark...not so much on complete rails as modern themeparks...but it is still a themepark.

Shadowbane and DAoC were not very similar.  Shadowbane definitely was not a FPS type game in the least.

Well, the MMMORPG/FPS discussion aside...

...I'm pretty sure that folks would enjoy the EQ-Shadowbane-DAoC hybrid if somebody were actually to try to make one.

Nobody has actually tried to make one.  7 years?  MMORPGs have been out for 15+ years.

I do not quite follow your post. 

First of all, I know MMO's have been out since Ultima Online,, which was 15 years.. What I meant to say was, there hasn't been a revolutionary MMORPG since the release of WoW,, which was 7 years ago...  UO revolutionized the MMO genre, followed by Everquest, followed by DAOC, followed by WoW... You could throw in Asheron's Call and Shadowbane if you like, but I don't really consider them as the top 3-4 of all time...

Also, I was comparing different MMO styles of game mechanics with EQ and Shadowbane.. Both were very different in their own right.. Then DAOC basically combined both PVE, lore, and story with a nice and awesome RVR PVP experience..

We haven't seen this done in years.. Since 2004, DEV's have failed miserably at trying to combine MMO and FPS game mechanics in hopes of pleasing both types of gamers to make WoW type money.. Not only that, they tried to duplicate the features that made WoW so successful.. The only problem is, Blizzard combined the features and mechanics of the D&Dish Everquest, UO, and DAOC,, along with adding their own flavoring..

Since then, many MMO's have come and gone, and none of them are nearly as popular and successful as the top 4 I listed above.. They are mostly all fast paced themepark rides and nothing more...

Oh, stating EQ was a themepark and not a sandbox is completely absurd, lol.. That statement alone obviously shows you never played from pre Luclin era...

Originally posted by asmadeous

EverQuest:

I played back in 1999, I remember just starting out as a High Elf Magician. Veterans of this game would know there was no "personal torch", night GREATLY hindered your vision range and High Elves had horrible night vision (did not know about conjure light-source at this time)

High Elves had infravision.. Try being a Human! I was a human druid and when it became night, I literally had to turn the gamma up to maximum to see.. I remember running into packs of wolves, bears, orcs, gnolls, etc.. One particular incident I ran directly into Lockjaw the Alligator in RO.. That didn't end well...  :/