Originally posted by phantomghost

It sounds good yes but those things that made EQ easy ruined the community that EQ was. The auction market killed the EC tunnel for selling. The easy travel killed the need for friends lists as you no longer needed a druid to give you a lift someplace. I remember when the travel spires came out. I could just hop all over Everquest without much thought at all. It made me sad to be honest as I saw immediatly how it killed part of what made EQ EQ. I was a Shaman and made a bit of income selling SOW's. Not any longer once POP came out. POP also introduced instances which is the last nail in killing the realism of the game. No more trains, no more camps just you own little private world to which all the spoils are yours. Fake Fake Fake - No thanks.

I will never forget my first run from Everfrost to Freeport. What a rush!

I think GoD introduced instances.  Because I know people use to fight for PoT and all other PoP mobs.  They did implement an instance for time, later to accomdate the numerous guilds fighting for a week respawn.

 

I did enjoy many of the old stuff such as EC tunnels and forming groups and 2 people go claim a camp for the members on their way, then a whole group comes up and fighting over it begins.  Trains are intentionally pulled.  It was very fun.

If memory servers the very first instance in EQ was the one in Everfrost. I can't remember if it was an expansion or a patch that put it there.

POP was the first big Instance expansion and ruined EQ for me due to the keying. I live on the West Coast and was in one of the top 3 guilds on my server. In order to move past the first 3 instances you needed keys. My guild did key runs early so by time I got home I missed them, fell behind and then had to sit there and watch my guild progress without me. It sucked and sucked bad.

Basically EQ was great until SOE got their hands on it and Brad sold out.

Originally posted by Painlezz

In my experience, "old school EQ gamers" are the ones who tend to enjoy the F2P games most and are actually willing to only play for free and farm all of the shit... 

Meaning they don't support the developers enough to make it worth appealing to them.

Plus, there are just far too few EQ old school gamers to be profitable anymore...

Personally I hate F2P games. They are like penny slots in vegas. Sure a penny sounds cheap until you find out you have to play 500 to do a Max bet which gives the Max reward. Sure you can play just 9 lines but you might as well just keep your penny as playing that way is a waste of time.

Originally posted by phantomghost

One day maybe a good developer will take what EQ was before the days of Planes of Power and modernize it and release it. It would be so nice to have what EQ was again.

Well SOE is developing EQ Next which is suppose to give the feel of EQ gameplay  just updated.  Of course, I am sure it will not be quite the same nor feel as good, but I think it can come close.  For example, I believe stuff such as PoP and after that made the game a bit easier will be implemented.  I do not hate that.  I played earlier when I spent hours traveling to get to my next leveling area.  I did enjoy both.  In reality, I just want that overall gameplay style to come back and I am willing to wait and hopeful they do follow through with the productions.  That is why I am still currently subscribed to EQ, even though I do not play it much any more, I will support them just for the possibility this game is released.

 

With PoP they made it less time require to travel, but IMO the raiding in PoP was very fun for me.  This was about the time I became a hardcore raider and not just a casual raider.  I remember killing the bosses to flag people to move on, going back to flag those who missed, going back to gear up because we cannot progress.  I remember forming guild groups to grind out AA's just to be more prepared for the next attempts.  Overall, I though EQ did a great job evolving the game to suit the needs, unfortunately populations declined and they had to resort to making the game more soloable because it is all people can do when there are 2 people in a zone.

It sounds good yes but those things that made EQ easy ruined the community that EQ was. The auction market killed the EC tunnel for selling. The easy travel killed the need for friends lists as you no longer needed a druid to give you a lift someplace. I remember when the travel spires came out. I could just hop all over Everquest without much thought at all. It made me sad to be honest as I saw immediatly how it killed part of what made EQ EQ. I was a Shaman and made a bit of income selling SOW's. Not any longer once POP came out. POP also introduced instances which is the last nail in killing the realism of the game. No more trains, no more camps just you own little private world to which all the spoils are yours. Fake Fake Fake - No thanks.

I will never forget my first run from Everfrost to Freeport. What a rush!

I could not agree more OP. The issue we have is the same throughout the world except reverse. We are the 1%'ers trying to fight/change the 99%'ers who want it all now for as little effort as humanly possible and the developers are handing them what they want greedily.

The developers are not making MMO's to be challenging, realistic, hard, long, etc. anymore because they could care less if you actually play it or not, they simply want you to maintain your subscription. They have found out it's much better to have 500k casual players than log in once a week than it is to have 100k players who play 12  hours a day.

Risk vs Reward is a thing of the past sense WOW found out you can dumb the game down, toss in a bunch of shinny items and make $$$$. The rest of the gaming industry wants their slice of the WOW pie so they just clone what works, dress it up in different clothes and pass it off as the Next Generation in MMO Gaming. When in reality it's just a clone and the idiots who play today eat it up without even chewing. Then if you point out how easy, boring, non-challenging it is they spit out sarcastic remarks to you because honestly they have no damn clue what you're talking about because they never played the old EQ and have NO clue what a real community is, risk vs reward is etc. They simply don't want to have to work for a goal they just want it handed to them on a plate so they can play dress-up.

One day maybe a good developer will take what EQ was before the days of Planes of Power and modernize it and release it. It would be so nice to have what EQ was again.

What happens when you get all the loot you want after one run? What happens when you got all the loot from all the dungeons in a month? What do you do then?

What happens when everyone has the same stuff. Unique? How can it be unique when everyone has it? How can you say it's special if everyone gets it on their first attempt?

At least the old way when you got that drop you knew it was going to be unique for some time to come. I like that they are not recoloring gear and making it different but in the end everyone is going to look the same anyway. I liked how in EQ when you faught a boss he used the loot he dropped. So if he held the dagger you knew it was going to drop. They need to bring back that stuff to MMO's.

There is simply more of a sense of pride when you do finally get that drop after 19 tries. You will not experience that with this setup. There is no excitement when you know it's going to drop. This is just more catering to the "I want it all now with the least effort needed" crowd. Nothing more nothing less

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Bravnik

 

Optomizing DPS is not a challenge friend. Squeaking out 1 more DPS is NOT going to be the difference between a win or loss. A group of people doing what needs to be done with no mistakes equals a win. Sure overall DPS matters and yes min/maxing is key for sure but it's not a challenge. You ether know how to get DPS out of your toon or you simply don't.

Challenge is what each person define and you can't define it for everyone. There are those who want to just down the boss, and those who want to win at the DPS chart, and those who want to be able to boast big numbers.

I do not see why only getting a win is valid, and the others are not.

And oh, if you say "ether know how to get DPS out of your toon or you simply don't", then you obviously do NOT understand the complexity of DPSing with mechanics. Go READ elitistjerks. There are people who are dedicated to it. May be you can learn something.

This reminds me of when I know I have exhausted a single player game.

When I am playing and making up my own rules such as 'I want to see if I can get the level done without having to reload.

Once you start doing stuff like that, the game is over.

This is exactly why I quit playing wow. There was simply no more challenge after WOTLK came out. I want to kill hard bosses not kill the bosses then try to make them hard by doing it with 20 people or standing on one foot etc. Achievements mean jack crap to me. I enjoyed SWP for what it was, very very challenging and only a few people actually got to clear it before WOTLK came out and I was one of those lucky people. I simply find it much more enjoyable trying over and over again to kill them and when you finally do it's feels so good.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

 

This reminds me of when I know I have exhausted a single player game.

When I am playing and making up my own rules such as 'I want to see if I can get the level done without having to reload.

Once you start doing stuff like that, the game is over.

 

I don't know about you. But go to the WOW forums. There are plenty of people seeking advice to up their DPS. There are also plenty asking if  xx k dps is normal and whether they should do more.

Coupling with the fact that elitistjerks exist, and there are at least 2 packages of software (RAWR and a DPS SIM) that study WOW DPS, i would say DPS maximization is popular enough. And many have been doing it for years.

Min/Maxing is important yes. Actually staying out of the fire is MUCH more important and more of a challenge.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Bravnik

 

Optomizing DPS is not a challenge friend. Squeaking out 1 more DPS is NOT going to be the difference between a win or loss. A group of people doing what needs to be done with no mistakes equals a win. Sure overall DPS matters and yes min/maxing is key for sure but it's not a challenge. You ether know how to get DPS out of your toon or you simply don't.

Challenge is what each person define and you can't define it for everyone. There are those who want to just down the boss, and those who want to win at the DPS chart, and those who want to be able to boast big numbers.

I do not see why only getting a win is valid, and the others are not.

And oh, if you say "ether know how to get DPS out of your toon or you simply don't", then you obviously do NOT understand the complexity of DPSing with mechanics. Go READ elitistjerks. There are people who are dedicated to it. May be you can learn something.

There is NO challenge to gearing/gemming/buffing etc. You simply read what you need to do and buy what you need, enchant how they say and try to follow a rotation that someone else says is the best. What exactly is the challenge in that?

I played in a Tier 1 guild and killed every mob that WOW had to offer friend. I doubt I need advise on learning anything about WOW. EJ is a great site for sure and used by everyone in WOW. They do all the Min/Maxing for you and you simply follow their cookie-cutter builds for your toon and go out and play. There is NO challenge at all because they did the work for you. The only challenge you have is to mash the buttons in the right order to get the most DPS.

The actually challenge is killing a mob nobody else (or very few) can kill. Working as a team with EVERYONE staying out of the fire and doing their job. That is where the challenge lies as EJ can do nothing to help you keep the nubs out of the fire or the tools from doing something stupid and dieing. However, that is not challenging anymore in WOW as Blizzard has dumbed the game down so much that any nub can kill the end bosses now days.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Bravnik

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Torik

 

Those are good points.

1. I definetly treat MMORPGs as strategy-based games.   So once I have 'solved' a strategy and can duplicate my success every time, there does not seem to be much point in repeating the encounter unless it is meant as a refresher. 

2.  I always distinguish between strategy and endurance challenges.  Cycling is predominantly a power and  endurance sport with some situational strategy.  In turn I view MMORPGs as predominantly strategy games with some situational twitch skill thrown in.  I do not view endurance challenges as a necessary or desirable component of MMORPGs.

3.  I see twitch skill as a secondary component of MMORPGs so some repetition is required to improve it to the necessary level.  However, the 'strategy skill' is best improved by presenting different challenges that require new strategies.  In fact needless repetition of the same strategy tends to lower a player's skill level rather than raise it.

 

1) What about random events and reaction to that? While you may have an overall strategy, you also have to react to what happened at the moment. For example, it happens many times to me that in a familiar fight, either the healer or the tank died, and i have to adjust when i use my DPS burst to win the fight. (Obviously it is not always possible if the tank die, but i have succeeded from time to time).

2) MMORPGs are GAMES. Strategy challenge is perfectly FINE but i won't play a GAME that need endurance. I simply do not have the time nor the desire to spend hours upon hours on a GAME.

3) You certainly need *some* skills .. like at least be able to hit the right key when you want to call up the right skills. Or move to the right spot when you need to do so, or remembering where to go and what to avoid.

It alsways cracks me up when people say WOW has no challenge. Sure if you are talking about just downing a dungeon boss. However, there is a lot of complexity if you want to maximize your DPS. So may be the challenge is not to "win" the encounter but to improve your DPS and lead the charts.

The strategic aspect of DPS is quite deep given the varying combat mechnics in WOW. For example, how to do gem or reforge your gear.  You have to consider many variables including hit cap, haste so cap, and the importance of different stats. The answer can be different under raid buff vs in a 5-man dungeon. In fact, it is so complex that to fully optimize, you need a software tool like RAWR.

And there are similar considerations during play. If you have an arcane mage, you have to decide when to use your burn phase and when to evocate. Your DPS can change a LOT if you don't make the right decisions. And those decisions are specific to fights.

I would consider a problem that  need the use of monte-carlo simulation, constraint optimization, and stochastic modeling to solve ... have some challenges.

 

 

 

LOL - WOW before WOTLK required skill and provided a challenge for sure. After WOTLK it's a joke, there is no challenge unless you think fighting a boss you have already killed 50 times is challenging if you do it while jumping on one foot with a knife all for an achievement? ROFL - SWP was the last challenge in WOW and 99% will not know it as they never saw it.

Did you actually READ what i wrote? Optimizing DPS *is* a challenge. Sure you can kill the BOSS but can you do 50k dps on it?

Optomizing DPS is not a challenge friend. Squeaking out 1 more DPS is NOT going to be the difference between a win or loss. A group of people doing what needs to be done with no mistakes equals a win. Sure overall DPS matters and yes min/maxing is key for sure but it's not a challenge. You ether know how to get DPS out of your toon or you simply don't.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Bravnik

Because that is how real life work so it makes it immersive. You don't walk into your local mall and get it all to yourself or just your family. You see others, interact with other and might even have to watch someone grab the last item that you want. That is immersion. Being in a group instance simply kills the immersion of the game (for me) as it is not realistic but fake.

Maybe I want more than just a game. EQ (before pop) was WAY more than just a game or a guild. I knew just about everyone on my server, they had a reputation and so did I. If I needed a port I had a friends list at least 20 people deep for ports alone. In EVERY MMO sense I don't even utilize a friends list as it's simply not needed. In EQ when you found a good tank or good healer you befriended them and vice versa. Next time you logged in you would get invites to join etc.

Instances, quick travel, auction houses etc. appeal to those who simply want to play a game with as little effort possible. They simply don't have time to run 20m to a spot. EQ before POP was the most realistic game ever. There was simply nothing like running into EC and seeing all the spam from people selling their stuff. Then when you saw something you wanted you could actually talk to the person selling it, haggle, barder or pay for it. So much more realistic.

Anyway I degress. One persons adventure does not equal everyones.

Real life???

I am playing a game here, PLEASE. A dungeon is not a mall. If it like that, i won't be playing. I will just go to the real mall.

Realistic != good game. You are right .. not only i don't have time to run 20m to a spot ... i do not want to. The first time may be fun but after the 10th time, it is a chore. If i want chores, i have plenty in the real world. They don't belong in games ... at least not those i am willing to pay for.

And sure, different people like different things. I will pay for what i like and i wont stop you to pay to run 20m to the same spot again and again, if that floats your boat.

Oh, btw, that is also a bit off topic. Running 20m is not hard nor challenging. It is just tedious.

My point made. You want it all now for as little effort as possible. Nothing wrong with that. I simply want more from a game than crap just haneded to me.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Torik

 

Those are good points.

1. I definetly treat MMORPGs as strategy-based games.   So once I have 'solved' a strategy and can duplicate my success every time, there does not seem to be much point in repeating the encounter unless it is meant as a refresher. 

2.  I always distinguish between strategy and endurance challenges.  Cycling is predominantly a power and  endurance sport with some situational strategy.  In turn I view MMORPGs as predominantly strategy games with some situational twitch skill thrown in.  I do not view endurance challenges as a necessary or desirable component of MMORPGs.

3.  I see twitch skill as a secondary component of MMORPGs so some repetition is required to improve it to the necessary level.  However, the 'strategy skill' is best improved by presenting different challenges that require new strategies.  In fact needless repetition of the same strategy tends to lower a player's skill level rather than raise it.

 

1) What about random events and reaction to that? While you may have an overall strategy, you also have to react to what happened at the moment. For example, it happens many times to me that in a familiar fight, either the healer or the tank died, and i have to adjust when i use my DPS burst to win the fight. (Obviously it is not always possible if the tank die, but i have succeeded from time to time).

2) MMORPGs are GAMES. Strategy challenge is perfectly FINE but i won't play a GAME that need endurance. I simply do not have the time nor the desire to spend hours upon hours on a GAME.

3) You certainly need *some* skills .. like at least be able to hit the right key when you want to call up the right skills. Or move to the right spot when you need to do so, or remembering where to go and what to avoid.

It alsways cracks me up when people say WOW has no challenge. Sure if you are talking about just downing a dungeon boss. However, there is a lot of complexity if you want to maximize your DPS. So may be the challenge is not to "win" the encounter but to improve your DPS and lead the charts.

The strategic aspect of DPS is quite deep given the varying combat mechnics in WOW. For example, how to do gem or reforge your gear.  You have to consider many variables including hit cap, haste so cap, and the importance of different stats. The answer can be different under raid buff vs in a 5-man dungeon. In fact, it is so complex that to fully optimize, you need a software tool like RAWR.

And there are similar considerations during play. If you have an arcane mage, you have to decide when to use your burn phase and when to evocate. Your DPS can change a LOT if you don't make the right decisions. And those decisions are specific to fights.

I would consider a problem that  need the use of monte-carlo simulation, constraint optimization, and stochastic modeling to solve ... have some challenges.

 

 

 

LOL - WOW before WOTLK required skill and provided a challenge for sure. After WOTLK it's a joke, there is no challenge unless you think fighting a boss you have already killed 50 times is challenging if you do it while jumping on one foot with a knife all for an achievement? ROFL - SWP was the last challenge in WOW and 99% will not know it as they never saw it.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Bravnik

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Bravnik

I remember the very first instance I ever seen in EQ. It was just off Everfrost and man did it feel vacant. I just could not get over being in this big instance with only my little group of guys. It felt fake which is something EQ never felt. At the time I didn't know it was the sign of things to come and that all MMO's will be centered on instances.

 

I remember the very first instance i ever seen in WOW (sorry, quit EQ over its tedium LONG before it fixed the issue with instance). It was just off Barrens and man did it feel refreshing. I just could not get over being in this big instance with only my little group of guys. It felt like an exciting adventure which is something EQ never felt. At the time i did know it was the sign of things to come and that all MMO's should be centered on instances.

You see this is where we differ. You come across as an introvert and I'm an extrovert. I enjoy the company of others. I think a game that uses instances hurts the immersion as it is just not realistic to be in a zone all by yourself. If this feels good to you then you should be a happy camper as almost every MMO in production today meets your needs.

However, I enjoy being in places with people. It makes sense to me that we want the same mobs thus we work together to get them. I think it's realistic when a person chains a mob and the mob kills anything it can on the way back and not simply ignore everyone along the way.

I ask you this. How can you qualify a game as an adventure if it leads you by the hand and gives you your own private world to explore. That's not an adventure, it's an RPG with people in it that might as well be NPC's.

Dont get me wrong. I LIKE small group content.

Actually WOW 5 man dungeon feels a lot MORE immerse than old EQ dungeons like L Guk. How can you be immersed when people are shouting "camp check" every 5 min is beyond me.

A small group of players, going through a dungeon, fighting against monsters and boss .. now that is an adventure. Sure, it feels more like one the first time than the 100th time, but no MMO offers a new dungeon every time.

It feels like a social chatroom if i came up to another 20 players camping the boss.

Adventure is about fighting your way through a dungeon. Oh, it does not have to be big .. the important thing is that the boss fight needs to be design well (with special mechanics and stuff).

 

 

 

Because that is how real life work so it makes it immersive. You don't walk into your local mall and get it all to yourself or just your family. You see others, interact with other and might even have to watch someone grab the last item that you want. That is immersion. Being in a group instance simply kills the immersion of the game (for me) as it is not realistic but fake.

Maybe I want more than just a game. EQ (before pop) was WAY more than just a game or a guild. I knew just about everyone on my server, they had a reputation and so did I. If I needed a port I had a friends list at least 20 people deep for ports alone. In EVERY MMO sense I don't even utilize a friends list as it's simply not needed. In EQ when you found a good tank or good healer you befriended them and vice versa. Next time you logged in you would get invites to join etc.

Instances, quick travel, auction houses etc. appeal to those who simply want to play a game with as little effort possible. They simply don't have time to run 20m to a spot. EQ before POP was the most realistic game ever. There was simply nothing like running into EC and seeing all the spam from people selling their stuff. Then when you saw something you wanted you could actually talk to the person selling it, haggle, barder or pay for it. So much more realistic.

Anyway I degress. One persons adventure does not equal everyones.

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by Bravnik

Well if you think Mr. Rodgers is for adults then you have bigger issues than we can discuss on this forum. WOW as it is now is a kids game geared towards the "I want it now for as little effort as humanly possible" crowd. To argue that is just foolish.

how painfully obvious it is to you that Mr. Rogers is for kids is how painfully obvious it is to me that WoW is for young adults.

See my point? Question is, what EXACT parameters do we refer to that make us have that judgement?

For me its interface, the world I will be interacting is is paramount for me and I have to feel as if I am actually there. I know that experience will be impossible with WoW. It wasnt possible with EQ2 but I played it anyway because I didnt know any better.

Memories I have in Darkfall are a vivid and realistic to me as real life experiences.

Like I said. WOW appeals to the "I want it now crowd for as little effort as possible". Please don't get all defensive.

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

 

one thing we are all not addressing and somewhat hidding behind is age factor.

I read an article that said that one of the long term future trends in MMO's is to target older adults which they described as well into their 30's or higher.

Is there any change that people who like WoW on average are in their 20's and on average those who like 'sandboxy' games are 30+?

I have NOT seen any statistics on that poine except that the average age of  WOW player is 28.

I am 45 so clearly your claim, and that statistics does not apply to ME.

I have also seen research (Newzoo.com) showing that in general, MOST MMORPG players in 2011 are adults. You should be able to find their charts quite easily.

it was not a claim it was more of a question. I assume the answer is as I suggest but I by no means say that it is because I simply dont know.

What I do know is that WoW looks and feels like a kids game to me and I was never able to give it more than about 15 seconds of watching someone else play it before I discarded it. but again, I submit that what I see as being childs play could very well be just a point of view

And thats the difference to what some people were saying before.  You saying it looks and feels like a kids game but beign aware that it could well be just a point of view.  This is far different from saying this is a kids game and all you people are unintelligent sheep who don't know what your talking about.

I admit than when I play WoW and am in the city, most of the chat I hear seems like completely unintelligen inane garbage - however it is just my viewpoint and when I do group with people they aren't like that.... so I stay out of the cities haha.

Your view is completely unarguable. 

But what creteria and who decides that Mr. Rogers (or veggie tails) really is in fact for kids?

I might have the 'view' that Mr. Rogers is for grownups but what key factors are we looking at exactly to suggest I am wrong?

Well if you think Mr. Rodgers is for adults then you have bigger issues than we can discuss on this forum. WOW as it is now is a kids game geared towards the "I want it now for as little effort as humanly possible" crowd. To argue that is just foolish.

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by Bravnik

So WOW when it started was not a kids game, but now it sure the hell is. It's so simple a caveman can do it!

a little history here. The year it came out EQ2 also came out.

Graphically EQ2 was more 'realistic' although by todays standards it looks cartoonish to me as well.

There were two reasons WoW made won the game against EQ2.

1. video card and CPU demand was much lower, thus game was fast on load. EQ2 on the other hand at the time required a pretty good PC.

2. It was in fact easier than EQ2.

Actually I beta tested and played EQ2 with the 9th highest Coercer servers wide with lots of world firsts. The problem with EQ2 was that it didn't have any content past lvl 40 to speak of. It was UNFINISHED. It was also full of bugs (more than WOW) along with them constantly changing the way toons worked. My Coercer was broke at 40+ thus I quit playing EQ2 and picked up the cartoony WOW and played it for 5 years as a hardcore raider and loved it until WOTLK came out and dumbed it down to the point that I got zero enjoyment out of it as it was simply too damn easy and they replaced the grind with Dailies which I can't stand.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

 

one thing we are all not addressing and somewhat hidding behind is age factor.

I read an article that said that one of the long term future trends in MMO's is to target older adults which they described as well into their 30's or higher.

Is there any change that people who like WoW on average are in their 20's and on average those who like 'sandboxy' games are 30+?

I have NOT seen any statistics on that poine except that the average age of  WOW player is 28.

I am 45 so clearly your claim, and that statistics does not apply to ME.

I have also seen research (Newzoo.com) showing that in general, MOST MMORPG players in 2011 are adults. You should be able to find their charts quite easily.

it was not a claim it was more of a question. I assume the answer is as I suggest but I by no means say that it is because I simply dont know.

What I do know is that WoW looks and feels like a kids game to me and I was never able to give it more than about 15 seconds of watching someone else play it before I discarded it. but again, I submit that what I see as being childs play could very well be just a point of view

And thats the difference to what some people were saying before.  You saying it looks and feels like a kids game but beign aware that it could well be just a point of view.  This is far different from saying this is a kids game and all you people are unintelligent sheep who don't know what your talking about.

I admit than when I play WoW and am in the city, most of the chat I hear seems like completely unintelligen inane garbage - however it is just my viewpoint and when I do group with people they aren't like that.... so I stay out of the cities haha.

Your view is completely unarguable. 

Wow was a good game in the beginning even with instances. Yes it lead you along but it gave a challenge and was fun. The end game was what I enjoyed and it was a blast. It was hard, took skill and the risk vs reward was great. I was one of the first hunters to have my full dragon stalker gear on my server. I enjoyed the look and the challenge it took to attain.

Then all that changed. The Arena was introduced. The PVE spells were changed due to balancing. PVP gear looked like the end game raiding gear. So the gear you earned was no longer special looking as everyone basically had the same crap handed to them in PVP. Then they dumbed the game down even more so EVERYONE could experience the end game. Thus making the end game a joke for people like me as it was JUST TOO EASY!

So WOW when it started was not a kids game, but now it sure the hell is. It's so simple a caveman can do it!

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Bravnik

I remember the very first instance I ever seen in EQ. It was just off Everfrost and man did it feel vacant. I just could not get over being in this big instance with only my little group of guys. It felt fake which is something EQ never felt. At the time I didn't know it was the sign of things to come and that all MMO's will be centered on instances.

 

I remember the very first instance i ever seen in WOW (sorry, quit EQ over its tedium LONG before it fixed the issue with instance). It was just off Barrens and man did it feel refreshing. I just could not get over being in this big instance with only my little group of guys. It felt like an exciting adventure which is something EQ never felt. At the time i did know it was the sign of things to come and that all MMO's should be centered on instances.

You see this is where we differ. You come across as an introvert and I'm an extrovert. I enjoy the company of others. I think a game that uses instances hurts the immersion as it is just not realistic to be in a zone all by yourself. If this feels good to you then you should be a happy camper as almost every MMO in production today meets your needs.

However, I enjoy being in places with people. It makes sense to me that we want the same mobs thus we work together to get them. I think it's realistic when a person chains a mob and the mob kills anything it can on the way back and not simply ignore everyone along the way.

I ask you this. How can you qualify a game as an adventure if it leads you by the hand and gives you your own private world to explore. That's not an adventure, it's an RPG with people in it that might as well be NPC's.

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

Originally posted by BadSpock

It's you EQ kids that have led to the ruin of the MMORPG genre. Us UO vets understand how MMOs are supposed to be.

No such thing.

Variety is the spice of life. You've got your idea of fun; I've got mine; they've got theirs.

Personally I woudnt want to have an industry where each and every game follows one formula and is the same...oh wait...

True, I over generalize.

I just find it funny that people always seem to cite EQ as the pinnacle of what MMORPG's are supposed to be, without having the breadth of understanding and wisdom to see that EQ was the start of the current trend, not some far distant and seperate thing.

There is a clear line of succession from EQ to WoW to the modern MMO structure.

There is NO line of succession from what UO was to..... there is nothing.

Games like DF/EvE/SWG tried to build on what UO did but failed miserably because they lacked the vision to see what made UO so great.

SWG came much closer than EVE or DF or any other modern sandbox, but SWG's major flaws weren't just the extreme lack of polish and quality but the general grind-heavy structure of the advancement systems.

Actually UO was the Pong of MMO's. Nothing more really. EQ was the start of the modern day MMO as we know it today. EQ before POP was perfect, after is where it lost it's way. When I speak of EQ I speak of it prior to POP and actually prior to SOE getting involved as that is really the turning point of when EQ started to have issues.

Originally posted by BadSpock

I don't really think there was anything "hard" about classic games.

There was nothing "hard" about UO - actually quite the opposite, many things were far, far easier in UO than in modern games.

The only thing UO had before Trammel was annoyance. Veteran players bullying everyone else and preventing new players from leaving town and fighting monsters/making money to improve their characters.

Griefing 101.

There is nothing "hard" about griefing. Actually couldn't be easier, "like taking candy from a baby."

Griefing doesn't make anyone "hardcore" it makes them a bully. True hardcore is taking on 2-3 similarly skilled players by yourself and winning. That is hardcore kids.

Hardcore is figuring out ways to defeat mobs by yourself that should take more players, and doing so WITHOUT cheating or exploiting - you're simply that good.

Hardcore was the Vanilla WoW hunters that could CC/kite 2-3 mobs at a time because they were that good. UBRS anyone?

I played on Siege Perilous (the no Trammel "hardcore" shard") for a long while because I had a large guild and we relied on each other for defense - strength in numbers. Was also a great RP community.

There is nothing "hard" about tedius repetition. Nothing "hard" about annoying hurdles to fun. Nothing "hard" about exploits. Nothing "hard" about griefing.

Ya'll are fooling yourselves.

WoW BC heroics and raiding were more challenging than anything in SWG or UO.

Ulduar was my favorite WoW raid of all time because it was challenging and epic in size and scope.

There is nothing "hard" about forced grouping, harsh death penalties, and tedius repetition.

It's you EQ kids that have led to the ruin of the MMORPG genre. Us UO vets understand how MMOs are supposed to be.

And yes, even the "great" SWG got so many things wrong... so many poor design decisions. Too much EQ influence. EVE made the same mistakes. Tried to copy UO without learning the lessons UO learned that made it great.

EQ did lead to the end of MMO's but it's not EQ's fault but SOE. They started with the Auction Houses, Quick Travel, PVP, Instances, etc. EQ went from being an amazing game with a great community to a shell of itself and it all started with POP and went downhill from there. The communitity took a HUGE hit when they added quick travel and the auction house. No more did you need Druid friends to port you. No more did you get to barder and trade equiplent. The racing to get to the mobs that spawned was over etc.

I remember the very first instance I ever seen in EQ. It was just off Everfrost and man did it feel vacant. I just could not get over being in this big instance with only my little group of guys. It felt fake which is something EQ never felt. At the time I didn't know it was the sign of things to come and that all MMO's will be centered on instances.

So yeah, EQ was the downfall of MMO's, but I blame SOE and their need for cash and lack of care for what it did to the community and immersion.

Originally posted by Lidane

Originally posted by Bravnik

We need a game like EQ was prior to POP but with upgraded graphics. No instances, no zone lines, no leading you by the hand, no auction houses and no fast travel. We need a world that the GM's participate in, people depend on one another to progress and where there is Risk vs Reward.

Yeah, good luck with that. Even all the games on this site that people call the Next Big Sandbox won't have anything like what you're asking for.

Oh I agree 100%, but I can dream. What I would like to see that can be done easly is a game with NO PVP centered on PVE with diverse classes. I've had enough of MMO's that suck because all the classes are mirrored or dumbed down due to PVP.