I have also seen some bogus shot calls. Direct perpendicular shots from close range with no chance of missing (almost point blank). Hearing the shot hit. No damage. I have seen this multiple times in a row, in fact. No damage given. The stats don't line up with what the game is actually doing.

This post right here makes me very optimistic for the game (as another potential subber who just heard about the game). The whole reason Eve lasts so long is because it is a sandbox that has something for most types of players; not just PvP centric (like DF) with little to no content in other aspects to "fuel the machine" and vice versa (crafting game with no PvP draw to create demand). If PO can work their way through the game mechanics to find a good balance such that 'carebears' and crafty ppl enjoy doing precisely what this fellow likes to do, then PO is a long way towards being successful. Sure they have a lot to do to get there, but this is promising.

IMO sandbox games have a different set of requirements to be successful. You need the trifecta of players. Crafters/PvE, PvP and Socialites. Crafters and PvE players create the supply for the economy and part of the demand. PvP players create a lot of demand, activity, defense structure in "hostile areas" for the miners, etc. Socialites create the guild/corp back bone, provide the merchant services, trading, etc. to tie it all together. This will form a basic in-game economy and "circle of interaction", if you will, that IMHO is one of the best litmus tests for a sandbox game.

OP, thanks for posting this as I am doing research to consider if PO is right for me and your post helps a lot. I will see you in-game!

OK, how about the availability of nodes?

I am very curious about the crafting side. What kind of crafting roles? Where you get the drops? How hard to level? How good is the gear versus quest/mobdropped/etc.? Is it enough to keep someone who is 'crafty' interested? Or is it AFK grind 50 shredded leather to neatly folded leather and then AFK fab up whatever item is cheapest on mats that still gives rank-up, only to dump them off at the nearest NPC vendor? Everyone humps the nodes dry all the time? Please feel free to compare to crafting systems of other games.

Originally posted by Rockgod99

Originally posted by Sovrath

I sort of know how you feel. I've been loggin into LOTRO but since there is nothing that I "really" have to work on and I'm at level cap, I just do small stints of game play for a few hours here and there.

 

I can't seem to log into any other game as I'm just awaiting the next beta.

Trying to do some Oblivion Modding.

Dude i can't quest in regular games because i miss the rifts and invasions.

I know people talk about phasing and other tech pushing the questing mechanic further but nothing beats teaming up with people in a game world and kicking the shit out of those crazy ass rifts.

its like how mmorpgs used to be, how you went into an area and actually grouped with people. Its really nice. 

And its something every god damn mmorpg is missing when it comes to the questing experience.

That mechanic looks like the public quests in WAR. Isn't that kinda similar? Just asking because I am very interested in Rift with all the buzz it's created.

Originally posted by Eleazaros

Originally posted by WizardBlack

All the Eve proponents love to spit out the same old arguement. Pick a small ship and you are up and running fast. Riiiiight. So, the new Eve player spends a few weeks learning the game, playing PvE and getting his "core" skills mostly done for, say, a frigate or cruiser. He ventures out into lowsec for an exciting first taste of PvP. Soon enough, he is met by an opponent and still utterly raped. Why? Because a vet isn't going to usually PvP at such a pathetic level (namely T1 cruiser, etc.) unless he is wasting time or doing basically a kamikazee run for a bit of 'fun'. He is going to be in a T2 cruiser or above. Go look up the stats on a T2 something-or-other versus a T1. Now you are adding some serious train time to 'sit in' a T2 ship. Fine, add it to your nifty training planner. Oh, wait! You need to fit your T2 ship with T2 weapons or your range, tracking speed, damage, ammo is all subpar and each subpar aspect stacks up with the rest. Hmm, gotta add some more skills to handle those T2 weapons. Now your training planner bloats to months. Plenty of skills to train to boost every aspect of your ship, too! Speed, agility, shield capacity, shield regen, capacitor capacity, capacitor regen, armor resistances, etc. etc. etc. Many skills, at level V, is gonna tack on 25% to what it improves. Most T2 ships are built for a particular specialized 'role' and require another subset of skills to get rolling, too.

It is positively hilarious. You get the noobs (fresh meat) to join up with sweet words of "catching up" is unimportant, but then once they get in game and mention they are gonna buy a cruiser, you say "whoah, whoah! You can >sit< in the ship, but can you really >fly< it? Keep training first!"

I think the phrase 'catching up' is not correct. Most are just looking at how long it takes to get to SOME SEMBLANCE of equal equipment. God knows, they have a player skill deficit as well, so leaving such a character skill deficit as well is a bit difficult. Sure, the noob can hop in a T1 frigate and be 90% maxed out pretty well for that ship, but combining the fact that he has little player skill by comparison PLUS his T1 frig is no match for a T2 cruiser or BC leaves the above argument pretty hollow.

The Eve skill system is great for PvE but it's a real bitch for ppl who could not care less about PvE. They have no way to pass the time to get where they need to be.

Eve is a GREAT game, don't get me wrong. I just think if they could have come up with some way around this fundamental conundrum they would have a WoW-like following.

To put it bluntly -- the EVE community does NOT want a WoW sized game full of those with that kind of mindset.

You don't seem to understand how this game works so I will explain a bit.

PvE in EVE is about soloing.  You can team up but most all aspects of this portion of the game are done by yourself.

PvP in EVE is about teaming up with others.  If you start out trying to go it alone, you'll get slaughtered because the ones you'll end up facing will be far stronger -OR- they'll bring friends most of the time.  Skills and experience allow players to compesate better for more showing up to attack them -- the "get out of here" factor (GTFO phrased 'politely').

The larger your team in PvP, the less skill is needed by the least skilled members.  The smaller your team for PvP, the more skill you'll want from your members.

This does not mean that lower skilled folks don't go on "gang" level roams from larger corporations, it means that lower skilled members won't be invited into small corporations that focus on small gang PvP.  The smaller "focused" groups don't run larger fleets -- the bigger groups do at times and that body count showing up can make a big difference in how you CAN form up gangs.

This is where things like RvB (a permanent "war" between 2 corporations) are popular and why Faction Warefare is also popular.  You hook up with very large collections of other players and go out to fight other groups -- mostly filled with OTHER inexperienced players but led by more experienced team-leaders/Fleet Commanders.

etc...

So if someone joins EVE with the idea that they can "pwn faces!" solo -- they'll be in for a great deal of disappointment. If they play with the expectation of JOINING others for gang style warefare they can and will find teams to work with and can have a hell of a lot of fun.

In a nutshell:  EVE's PvP game is one that pretty much REQUIRES you to be a social type of player.  If you don't like hanging with groups -- find a different game or "park" for a year or 2 and still expect to get your butt shot off a great deal.  Gangs eat soloists.

I understand quite well; thank you. I did plenty of both PvE (trade, a bit of missioning, courier, manufacturing, etc.) and PvP (zerosec and lowsec). I have helped run corps in both high, low and zero sec. I ran mining ops, FC'd in zerosec, built up trade networks, etc. I never said ppl need to "pwn face" to be happy. Just have some semblence of effectiveness. The counter-argument that I think it needs to be like World of Warcraft is old, over-used and mentally weak. If you disagree with what I said, come up with logically structured arguments; not a broad insult. The fact of the matter is that you are going to get 'shelved' as cannon fodder tacklers (of which are likely to be shot down at the onset of combat) or an adjacent system scout in team PvP until you have at least 4~6 months of training. Even more so, the smaller the team. Likewise, I never stated anything about social requirements. You will want to be social for certain PvE stuff as well. If you are not familiar with it; it's not my concern. There are plenty of ppl that solo PvP in lowsec as well.

Your entire argument is composed of this:

<Bland WoW insult>

<Irrelevant and incorrect assumptions about social requirements>

<Claims that I stated everyone expects to "pwn face" solo and from day one; also incorrect>

<rehash of incorrect assumptions about social requirements>

The entire PURPOSE of my post is to make ppl understand what they can EXPECT. Not a bitch session to try to get it changed. I like the way Eve is; I just don't think that full disclosure is such a bad idea, either.

Originally posted by cosy

 

you make the assumption that all ppl want to fly big ships o just fly ships in general

Well, I think most ppl understand that PvP is sort of the top of the food chain of Eve. Both for a lot of the players and for the majority of the economic product of Eve players. If you don't think so, then either you are mostly playing Eve in a single player bubble (ie., you are just a consumer) or you are contributing to it (by 'it', I mean the development, production or transport of products or services related to player-to-player combat which is by far the largest consumer of products in the Eve economy) and don't know it. In which case we'll just pat you on the head and send you back to your Factory, your Itty V or whatever AFK Mine-o-matic you fly.  ;-)

All the Eve proponents love to spit out the same old arguement. Pick a small ship and you are up and running fast. Riiiiight. So, the new Eve player spends a few weeks learning the game, playing PvE and getting his "core" skills mostly done for, say, a frigate or cruiser. He ventures out into lowsec for an exciting first taste of PvP. Soon enough, he is met by an opponent and still utterly raped. Why? Because a vet isn't going to usually PvP at such a pathetic level (namely T1 cruiser, etc.) unless he is wasting time or doing basically a kamikazee run for a bit of 'fun'. He is going to be in a T2 cruiser or above. Go look up the stats on a T2 something-or-other versus a T1. Now you are adding some serious train time to 'sit in' a T2 ship. Fine, add it to your nifty training planner. Oh, wait! You need to fit your T2 ship with T2 weapons or your range, tracking speed, damage, ammo is all subpar and each subpar aspect stacks up with the rest. Hmm, gotta add some more skills to handle those T2 weapons. Now your training planner bloats to months. Plenty of skills to train to boost every aspect of your ship, too! Speed, agility, shield capacity, shield regen, capacitor capacity, capacitor regen, armor resistances, etc. etc. etc. Many skills, at level V, is gonna tack on 25% to what it improves. Most T2 ships are built for a particular specialized 'role' and require another subset of skills to get rolling, too.

It is positively hilarious. You get the noobs (fresh meat) to join up with sweet words of "catching up" is unimportant, but then once they get in game and mention they are gonna buy a cruiser, you say "whoah, whoah! You can >sit< in the ship, but can you really >fly< it? Keep training first!"

I think the phrase 'catching up' is not correct. Most are just looking at how long it takes to get to SOME SEMBLANCE of equal equipment. God knows, they have a player skill deficit as well, so leaving such a character skill deficit as well is a bit difficult. Sure, the noob can hop in a T1 frigate and be 90% maxed out pretty well for that ship, but combining the fact that he has little player skill by comparison PLUS his T1 frig is no match for a T2 cruiser or BC leaves the above argument pretty hollow.

The Eve skill system is great for PvE but it's a real bitch for ppl who could not care less about PvE. They have no way to pass the time to get where they need to be.

Eve is a GREAT game, don't get me wrong. I just think if they could have come up with some way around this fundamental conundrum they would have a WoW-like following.

Nothing makes the game look worse to onlookers than people trying to troll a new person's review of a game. It's an >opinion< and not yours, anyways.

OK, back to topic. I recently downloaded the trial (huge download, by the way) and I would say, for the most part, that the OP's post is how I feel. I think the AH could be implemented in a modest form; maybe not a worldwide version, but you get the idea.

The AI is indeed a bit glitchy once in a great while. Nothing like a mob dodging and kiting as they hail arrows on me. When the switch to melee, they run in (still trying to dodge my missiles) and actually make a decent go at it. It can get them into trouble, however, with the rather 'spastic' action (getting stuck). It is just unfortunate that people take advantages of glitches and macros in this game.

I find the game to have a good dose of player skill required, but character skill (through grindy grind) is also needed to a certain level and that's where people try to glitch and macro. I found one fellow sitting for hours just spamming buffs to skill up. I found myself always crouch walking, running, sprinting and swimming to try to raise my skills. I find this to be a bit of an immersion breaker, to be honest. Most of these skills reduce the amount of stamina they consume. If you run out of stamina in combat, you can only >WALK< (normally you run or sprint) and cannot block, parry, swing, etc. You are dead meat in a tin can, buddy. (That's a big part of combat strategy. How much you bob, weave, dodge, sprint, etc. and retiring from the field with enough stamina to run to safety if you are losing)

I found the crafting system pretty cool. Any tree can be chopped for wood. Any pile of stone for stone. Any bush for a ton of different 'weeds' and whatnot. You can fish just about anywhere.

Honestly, I think the game would be more popular if it had a bit more explanation of the mechanics of the game, how the skills affect your play, etc. for the new players. Yeah, yeah, some of you had less than they have now and you 'did fine'. Good for you. I am talking about bringing subs up and streamlining the process of getting new players "into action".

 It is definitely something different from what most people are used to. They think uber-gear and the typical skill progression. If you do that, your character skills will be low (there is no character level raising them automatically, just individual skill levels that you want to be using a lot to raise up) and when you die, you will lose your gear and be screwed. In this game, you hoard dropped armor and only use what you can afford to lose (like Eve). Ie., you run around sporting dropped junk armor most of the time. You are not your suit of armor. You are your skills and your character skills. You harvest to boost some of your stats and build more armor, weapons, food, pots, etc. to keep yourself going forward.

I really like the lack of a radar system. You have to be careful about what sounds you make as that can be what gives you away (including to mobs). Sneak around like a hunter. Turn your 5.1 speakers up and listen carefully. Hide behind the terrain. Always be watching your back. Find that tree to harvest that's out of the way so you won't get caught by surprise while harvesting, ,etc. Good, good stuff. :-)

I found myself being spotted by mobs before I spotted them. (where did that arrow in the side of my head come from!??!). However, if I sneak around and don't make noise, I can get close. I was once resting behind the goblin's house between it and a bush. A goblin walked within 10 feet of me and didn't notice me. :-) As soon as I cast a heal spell or moved through that bush, he heard me and came after me.

Ultimately, I had a pretty good time at the game. I would probably sub, but I just don't have the time for such a time sink MMO as this one is. :-/ I found the world pretty darn empty, but racial chat was a good source for help from vets in answering your questions. I found it sated my interests for sandbox, decent crafting, sneaky and tactical combat, etc. It also, unfortunately, has too much time sink and a bit of macro/glitch content in it.

Just send all the STO ships through a jumpgate and into a nulsec system of Eve. Solve it all in a few seconds. I'll be there with a salvage whore'd destroyer.

Kirk: We need more power!

Scottie: I'm givin' 'er all she's got, Captain!

Kirk: BRB, need more Cryptic points.

What happens when next time it is 50k points when you buy it at some boutique that charges $5 more than anyone else? Do you guys not understand the concept of principle? Perhaps that gray area that keeps creeping the way you don't want it to? Have you ever heard the phrase "Give them an inch; they take a mile"? Perhaps to quote Picard; "This far; no further!"

Downloading the game for trial.

I am so tired of being pigeon holed in what I have to do and especially what I have to be.

The way I look at it; Ryzom has more people to interact with while sandboxing than Oblivion does...

Originally posted by Xiaoki

 

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Originally posted by donjn
This brings up a new question. Are publishers like EA for example to blame for pushing these MMOs out the door too early?

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No

 

Most of these MMOs would have needed at least another year or more before they were even launch ready. Some MMOs like Warhammer and AoC STILL have major problems that have been neglected since launch.

That's just plain bad programming. Some developers are just incapable of making a good working MMO no matter how much time and money you give them.

If you asked DaVinci how long it would take to design something, what do you think he'd say? They can't completely project the time to complete something. They do, however, have time frames and projections. The publisher does indeed allow a certain level of flexibility (depending on each situation), but ultimately it has to be launched at some point. Even if it is not as good as they made it sound, they have to get it out there and see what kind of sales they can end up with from it. It's just the name of the game. Making games and making movies both require investment capital that is spent before a dime is ever earned. At a certain point they'll just cash in for what they can get out of it.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by WizardBlack

Realistic damage would necessitate a method of demonstrating realistic skill; not just statistical models like virtually all MMO's are today.

Years ago, I played a single player fantasy game (swords and orcs, etc.). I can't, for the life of me, remember the name, but you swung your sword with the movements and position of the mouse. The mouse buttons dictated how your hand held or extended the sword. If you left your mouse in the wrong spot, you ran around with your sword stuck up in the air, etc. With this system, you could one-shot stuff, but it relied upon carefully timing the swing and lining it up just right. Otherwise, you end up banging the sword off his shield and back at yourself, or just overextending with a complete miss. Sometimes with just a nick or a bleeding wound that could eventually kill them. If you timed it right, you could lop their head off (and vice versa.) or a sword arm, leg, etc. It had LAN play only; really before 'teh interwebz'. I really enjoyed playing against friends in that one. Today, the internet is high enough speed to be able to send/receive data for such a game with a certain number of players. Sadly, macros and whatnot would easily ruin it.

 

Are you referring to Die by the Sword, sir? It was otherwise fun but I thought parrying was wayy too hard which lead to a huge swinging hacking hacking fiesta. Fun game. I would like to see more of something similar.

Yes, indeed. I liked it because good players would hone to the point of parrying, etc. Nowadays with stuff like Nintendo has on the Wii with the advanced controller sensors, you could really make an interesting game and get some exercise to boot! I continue to be amazed by the lack of avenues that are explored with the Wii's unique features just to stay in the "kiddie" pool.

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

Originally posted by 0guz

Mount and Blade has awesome gameplay.. watch.
www.youtube.com/watch

 

yeah, I love M&B...can't wait for Warband.

Yeah, multiplayer M&B will own.

Originally posted by legend411

Originally posted by WizardBlack

Realistic damage would necessitate a method of demonstrating realistic skill; not just statistical models like virtually all MMO's are today.

Years ago, I played a single player fantasy game (swords and orcs, etc.). I can't, for the life of me, remember the name, but you swung your sword with the movements and position of the mouse. The mouse buttons dictated how your hand held or extended the sword. If you left your mouse in the wrong spot, you ran around with your sword stuck up in the air, etc. With this system, you could one-shot stuff, but it relied upon carefully timing the swing and lining it up just right. Otherwise, you end up banging the sword off his shield and back at yourself, or just overextending with a complete miss. Sometimes with just a nick or a bleeding wound that could eventually kill them. If you timed it right, you could lop their head off (and vice versa.) or a sword arm, leg, etc. It had LAN play only; really before 'teh interwebz'. I really enjoyed playing against friends in that one. Today, the internet is high enough speed to be able to send/receive data for such a game with a certain number of players. Sadly, macros and whatnot would easily ruin it.

I believe you're talking about Die by the Sword.  It was definitely fun (and hard) as hell.

LOL, that's it! :-)

Indeed, nothing helps break immersion more than watching an impatient member of a party (that is clearly waiting for another member, or somesuch) run circles around the group and bunny hopping once per second the entire time. While in plate armor.

Originally posted by ChrisMattern

 

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Originally posted by donjn
Launching an MMO is a big deal. No one in recent memory did it better than Turbine.
But recently I came back to Warhammer and was amazed how much it has improved. It is finally the game I wanted it to be. Even though I don't care for Vanguard, it has made great improvements as well, not to mention Age of Conan which is the comeback winner.
This brings me to my poll question. Are we too unforgiving regarding second chances?
 

---

 

Frankly, I expect a game to in a reasonable state of completion when it releases. There's no excuse for releasing a game that is broken. It may not have all the features you ultimately plan on, but there should be something worth playing and it should *work*. Unfortunately, game publishers seems to want to make early buyers pay them to be their beta testers--and sometimes alpha testers. The best way to stop this is to make it clear that players won't stand for it--that games that release in this state will not attract players and will fail, and, no, it's *not* something you can fix later. The industry seems to be a little slow learning this, but hopefully they will catch on as time goes by.

Perhaps you don't understand the economics of an MMO. Competition for features is so high, no one can cover the entire budget before launch. While you might not like this system, the market clearly bears this style of release in exchange for as developed of a 'platform' as possible; with small features and bugs to be dealt with after an income stream is generated. I personally don't like it either, but that's how most seem to be going. Development timeframes have stretched out considerably from years ago.

Realistic damage would necessitate a method of demonstrating realistic skill; not just statistical models like virtually all MMO's are today.

Years ago, I played a single player fantasy game (swords and orcs, etc.). I can't, for the life of me, remember the name, but you swung your sword with the movements and position of the mouse. The mouse buttons dictated how your hand held or extended the sword. If you left your mouse in the wrong spot, you ran around with your sword stuck up in the air, etc. With this system, you could one-shot stuff, but it relied upon carefully timing the swing and lining it up just right. Otherwise, you end up banging the sword off his shield and back at yourself, or just overextending with a complete miss. Sometimes with just a nick or a bleeding wound that could eventually kill them. If you timed it right, you could lop their head off (and vice versa.) or a sword arm, leg, etc. It had LAN play only; really before 'teh interwebz'. I really enjoyed playing against friends in that one. Today, the internet is high enough speed to be able to send/receive data for such a game with a certain number of players. Sadly, macros and whatnot would easily ruin it.

Originally posted by donmaximo

Originally posted by WizardBlack

Originally posted by donmaximo

Originally posted by WizardBlack

LOL, and it goes round and round. As always.

The bottom line is that you have to buy a character or tag along and be a disposable 'tackler' (real entertaining, that one, you basically consume a few seconds and a few shots/missiles/volleys of the opposing player) or eat training time for a few years, minimum.

The only decent argument I saw was someone running PvE and barely got caught by another player with less time in. The only thing is, the attacking player was probably fitted for PvP (tactics to the newer player, sure), but the new player was in for 1.75 years versus five. LOL.

How many ppl looking into starting up Eve wanna be competitive in 2 years? Raise your hands...

Yes, there are a finite number of skills. I doubt even the 1.75 year player had everything maxed that addressed the ship he was flying. Even if it was T1. T1 is not competitive in 0.0. Can  you make a few kills? Sure if you luck out and have a good corp. But you are gonna be buying ISK to keep yourself fitted. Can you make lots of money in Eve? Sure, but you can't be training to be 'competitive' in some as yet undefined period of mere months in PvP and still be training all your indy skills or trade skills to be decent at trading.

 

New Players: It requires both player skill AND character skill (which is lots of time or money) to be competitive in lowsec or nulsec. Don't let any of these guys fool you. If you have a nice corp, you might make some sort of contribution in about 6~9 months. Otherwise, you'll be told to play the role of cannon fodder if they even let you in. Most have SP minimums right up front.

What?

You mean that I can't join this game...play for 6 months, and be just as skilled (player and character) as another character that's 5 years in?!?!

Players that have been playing longer are (generally) going to have more money, friends, assets, and (character) skill than me?!?!?

I can't train to be the best trader, PvPer, miner, PvE missioner, etc all at the same time?!?!?

I can't drink copious amounts of Mountain Dew and stay up for 8 weeks straight to become the leetest, epic'd out, pewpew wtfpwner of all of EvE history?!?!?

Man, this game sucks. You should be able to power-level (?) to max competitiveness, attain all epic’d out purples, and wtfleetroflmaogtfopewpewpwn all the noobs in 3 months max!

Sigh. I wish they made a game like that...
 

 

Actually, smart@55, I said be competitive. Not wipe everyone out  in anything you try to do. At least you admit it, thank you. That is all I have been after; give the new guys some realistic expectations. Some of these guys lure new players in with the expectation that they're gonna pirate in nulsec or 'run with the big boys' in short order and it isn't so.

What does “be competitive” mean? The way you described it sounded very much like flying around and dominating everything (PvP, PvE, trade, industry, etc). Your notion of “running with the big boys” is very much a WoW-type thought process that has no place in EvE. What do you mean by “big boys”? People in big ships? I’m sure you can find plenty of asshats flying big ships that bought their EvE characters and have no idea what they’re doing. I guess you can fly around with them, if it makes you feel better to see big ships, but it’s not going to get you very far.

T1 can certainly “be competitive” in low or null sec, and achieve way more than a few kills, if they play smart and use sound tactics. Are you going to fly around in your T1 frig and wipe the floor with well equipped and skilled (player and character) battleships? No. But you sure as hell can pick a target from the plethora of uninformed players that follow advice like yours, and buy characters that can fly ships and use modules they have no clue how to operate effectively.

A new player could also do a little research and find a pirate corp that accepts new players, at which point they can certainly pirate null sec in a gang of experienced PvPers (and not simply be cannon fodder). Here are links to two such corps:

Blood Money Cartel http://www.bloodmoneycartel.net/forum/index.php?sid=c1ac698c8198c09b4bd810c4fac7b520

The Tuskers
http://tuskers.eve-gamers.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=22&sid=8f4d05e2020a77d83814fe80afbfe02e

No, all things being equal, a new player will be unlikely to achieve the skill (player and character), ISK and assets of another player who started playing years before them, in 6 months time. But EvE isn’t about max-level, or being epic’d out. It’s about building your own name doing something that you enjoy, and doing it well. Are there always going to be those that are better than you? Probably. Why is that a bad thing? If nothing else, it means you’ll always have something else to improve on.

 

By competitive I mean your personal skills can make up for the difference in gear. I mean you have a relatively decent chance on a regular basis to come out on top. It's tough to measure it directly since few battles are 1 v 1 in nulsec (at least for very long).

I never said anything about max-level or 'epic'd out' to use your vernacular. You are imposing your own WoW comparisons. I have played most MMO's since they first became a genre that technology could allow, so Wow is merely a fad or one milestone to me; not the end-all measuring stick.

By 'big boys' I refer to a corp that operates in nulsec with it's own territory and under constant probes and attacks. Can you go out there as a low skill pilot? Sure, with their protection and whatnot. Are you competitive? Nope, not typically. Can you contribute? Sure. I went out my first time and based out of nulsec as a 1.9M SP pilot. I tackled, I threw mining lasers on my pew pew ship, I donned a cloaking device and played sentry or scanned out stuff. Whatever. It was fun. But I couldn't stand toe to toe with a nanoHAC, no way. I tried. I helped tackle stuff, but tackling doesn't really work on some stuff, obviously. No way in h*ll am I gonna stick all my SP into tackling, either.

As I said, I personally don't play tons of Eve just because I am a jack of all trades and being pigeon holed to get to a competitive level in ONE thing quickly doesn't appeal to me in the slightest.

I feel I have made my point and defended my logic. Yours may be different, but it's ultimately opinion vs. opinion. I see no need to continue past this to the point of arguing; it just makes everyone look foolish and petty. Peace out.