Originally posted by Iselin

You can have an opinion but it's worth about this much (picture my thumb and forefinger touching each other.)

Of course it's nothing but a grain of sand, why would you think it any greater?

Originally posted by Iselin

Originally posted by sapphen

Originally posted by tkreep

But its not from the creators of Elder Scrolls its from the creators of daoc.

TES is funding it, that's good enough for me.  I'm fine with Matt Firor's vision but I think it's wrong for TES.

Actually TES is not funding it. Zenimax Media is. And it's not from the creators of DAoC, it's from the company that owns the TES IP.

Zenimax Media, the parent compant of Bethesda (TES), id Software (Doom), Arkane Studios (Dishonored), and several other studios, created Zenimax Studios for the sole purpose of developing ESO...it's the one studio that shares the parent company's name...there's a clue in there somewhere.

They hired exactly who they wanted to hire--and if they hired Matt Firor for it and then, as some suppose, that Evil Matt ran off in his own direction and perverted the Betehsda franchise, Zenimax Media would  have to be the most naive and downright ignorant company in existence. One that despite 6 years of paying the development bills, had no clue what Matt was doing.

Alternatively, they knew exactly what they wanted to do with a TES MMO and hired the right guy to do it for them.

The IP is not in the public domain for individual TES fans to interpret it and expand on it in one of 10,000,000 ways. The owners decided how they wanted to do it. You can like it or not...buy it or not... play it a little or play it a lot... that's the choice you, the consumer, gets to make.

Zenimax Media makes money from TES franchise = TES funded ESO impo.

...and what's all these extra words for, did you miss me or something?  I thought we was beyond this fickle stuff.  We have no idea what went on behind the doors at Zenimax, as far as we know Matt Firor was their 2nd or 3rd choice.

That last paragraph it sounds like you're telling me that I'm not allowed to have an opinion on ESO because I don't own the rights to the IP (am I understanding this correctly?).  You should know me better than that Isy, critiquing someone's opinion is about as productive as cleaning sand off a beach.

It's cool if you, Matt Firor and everyone else at Zenimax doesn't agree with me but it's still my opinion.

Originally posted by tkreep

But its not from the creators of Elder Scrolls its from the creators of daoc.

TES is funding it, that's good enough for me.  I'm fine with Matt Firor's vision but I think it's wrong for TES.

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

ZOS has here an IP that can break many MMO stereotypes. I see them skulking back to the "familiar and known" comfort zone, though.

This is my final thought on the matter. 

Originally posted by richarddoyle

Originally posted by Iselin

Damn... wrong thread. I thought this was finally a thread where we pretended ESO is not based on anything at all and we look at it's faults and virtues purely based on the MMOie things they're doing.

MMOs with no previous IP to comply with have it so easy! We can like them or dislike them purely based on their own merits,

You think this forum might be ready for that thread yet?

While there is some logic to this, you also have to look at it this way...

The reason why they made this MMO an Elder Scrolls MMO is because they wanted to make money by attracting the interest of those who were already fans of TES games.

In other words, there are plenty of people who would not even be here if they didn't like TES games.  They are here because this is a game based off the Elder Scrolls universe, and therefore it's to be expected that they will assume that this game will have something in common with at least one of the previous Elder Scrolls games.

This isn't exclusive to just MMOs.  If, for example, you named a game "The Elder Scrolls: Atlantis" and then made the entire game a sing-along childrens' game based off of Disney's The Little Mermaid, people are going to say, "What the hell, this doesn't have anything in common with an Elder Scrolls game."  Naturally if it's in the same game series, they will compare it with the previous games, unless said previous games are so old the crowd entering the new game in the series don't remember the old ones.  One actual series that comes to mind is Fallout.  I realize a lot people who played Fallout 3 have no idea what the old Fallout games are.  If you just look at Fallout 3 on its own merits, it's a great game, but if you were actually a fan of the games that made the series popular, you're going to look at it and say "wtf, this is nothing like the previous Fallout games"

Ultimately, by using the name of a popular series, it's to be expected fans will want you to deliver some of the factors that made them actually like and buy into the series to make it popular enough to merit making an MMO out of, rather than just slapping its name onto an MMO.

Personally, I'm just going to wait and see what it's like, but I can understand both sides of this argument.

I kind of agree with you here, if they're going to use the Elder Scrolls name to sell the product then they are subject to previous games in the series.  That's why I think they should've created a new IP and then add the tagline "From the creator's of the Elder Scrolls" ~ BOOM, no stipulations and we could be cheering Mr. Frior for trying to make a neat little 3 faction realm MMO-thingy.

Originally posted by Lienhart

There is only one true answer to this:

Pokemon.

I have no clue how they would do it, but the base game already covers PvE and PvP really well (catch 'em all and be the best).

They could do a 'create your own' pokemon - similar to spore - and just let people wonder around as pokemons.  The class abilities could be like those superhero mmos.

Originally posted by Boldyn

Make a kickstarter campaign, that seems to work for delusional people that have nothing more than an idea for a game

;)

I wonder if someone could make a kickstarter campaign collecting 2-3 million dollars to give to Zenimax to make a few alterations on ESO and rerelease it as a seperate version.

Originally posted by mxo_cosa

This is why I was suggesting heavy penalties on progression for picking a race thats not of that faction. I personaly would just cut everything in half, half the septims, half the xp and so on. But Zenimax Online probably got good math people to find the perfect balance if they were to go with such a system.

I kind of thought the same thing, but instead of penalties they offer perks for joining the planned factions.

On a side note, I always thought it would be cool to make players walk all the way to the other faction (through Cyrodill) as a low level and attackable by everyone.  The people who make it can join another faction but it wouldn't be as easy as just picking another alliance.  People who hate the idea of open factions can watch the borders on their own time to prevent lowbies from crossing over.

Originally posted by cura

Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs

Sail the ship? By the look of it Ill bet you cant even swim.

-100pts for waist deep water

For me potentially +100 pts for not swimming in armour.

Sounds like something Zenimax would do, redesign the ocean to be only 2 ft deep so that people can't swim with armor on.

Originally posted by Iselin

Although I appreciate your intervention and attempt at pay-back humor (Iseling... I do believe I once referred to a thread getting sapphened) just follow the bouncing ball and notice the tone and style of the posts preceding the one you've quoted...if you can be objective that is.

Notice that he even played the "you must be new to gaming" cliched gaming credential card.

It's all there in black and white....I'll wait.

We all have our moments of card dealing, I can't judge either of you.  Just a friendly reminder that it's okay to have different ideas.

Originally posted by Iselin

I can keep this up all day if you wish.

Now don't go Iseling up the thread.  It's Bethesda's fault, they like player input - in the past they have encouraged and responded to it.  Yeah, I know Zenimax is making the game but some of us are just more traditional when it comes to the Elder Scrolls franchise.

Originally posted by baphamet

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Originally posted by sapphen
I have been wanting to play a TES MMO since Oblivion, unfortunately AvAvA almost discourages me from playing it.

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i don't see why, the pvp is totally optional and segregated from the rest of the game.

me personally, i would still try this game if it still had the option to pvp other than just battleground style pvp.

i mean, sure i could still play it without any pvp or endgame for a while but it wouldn't last long, that is for sure.

still probably wont last very long for me as far as mmo's go, but we will see.

Good for you!

Originally posted by Caliburn101

Originally posted by sapphen

Originally posted by Arun
3 is just more interesting than 2.

Heck, I'd would've liked to see 9 factions with each race belonging to their own faction.

I don't normally dissagree with you sapphen - but a 9-way fight would be a mess, and in any case, would likely polarise into two or three allied factions after a while anyway, and ones much more unstable than would otherwise be.

Now in a game where everyone was immersed 24/7 that might work - but in a game like this, it's a strong possibility that it would provide an invitation for the 24/7 players to dominate beyond all level of control, and the casuals to leave in droves.

Well 9 factions would be too much... if we couldn't temporarily align ourselves with another faction.  There would have to be an intricate system designed around for it to work in any degree but it's a novel idea.

Another MMO tried something similar a few years back.  They had a whole slew of factions, each faction made alliances with each other and it eventually lead to one massive gang that controlled all the areas.  There would be groups sitting just inside the PvP areas and charge people a toll to enter or they'll spawn camp you.  It was a horrible experience for the players but I have always been intrigued by the system.  It's funny, even in the digital world when given the freedom, we will bully and extort people of a different group.  I can't help to think with a few soft rules and influences, it could've been a great system.

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Maybe... but I see few new MMOs taking core things that worked as a package. Like the DAoC RvR system. (Not the whole game just the RvR core) A few things made it awesome as a whole. 

1. Faction lock

2. Non-gear focus (so all PvP is skill based not gear)

3. Getting to know each faction and guild to make the 3 faction war have substance

4. Give players reasons to fight that war, Darkness Falls etc

I have yet to see any MMO take that on as a whole. Same with what made WoW great. Dev keep making frankenstein games, take raids from this game, econ from this game, take WoW quest system, heck lets make PvP just open world and now we have something thats ours woot. IMO Devs need to take systems as a whole. If you going to use the WoW model you need to ask how each part of the game interacted with the other. Could be wrong but I would like to see ESO prove me right =-)

That's a good list but I'm totally put off that "faction locks" is even added, much less number 1.  I've played DAoC and other games with a RvR system and I do not believe that faction locks had a significant affect on gameplay.  I do feel that factions are important (for instance GW2 didn't even have factions) but I think locking races to factions is a trival thing.  It worked great in DAoC because each faction was another world/IP and they were brought together but it's not fair to expect it to have the same affect on a TES game when all the races have their own dynamic relationships. 

At some point we're gonna have to stop thinking about what to debate and question why are we debating?  The OP brings up a good point and I agree with him.  I think many games are failing now because they are skipping the fluff and roleplaying elements that were in many of the older games.

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Originally posted by sapphen

Originally posted by JasonJ

Its a shame too, because so many other TES aspects have been in MMOs before so we know it can be done.

It is a horrible shame.  TES games have been redefining the RPG genre for years, including many MMOs.  When TES finally gets a MMO, the developers try to copy another game.

I respect you Sapphen but on this you dead wrong. MMOs are so huge and have so many part that making them can have so many random outcomes no one can see till the doors are open and people are playing. So many MMOs over the years have been trying to create something new and thats a large part of why we have so many failed MMOs. If you are going to make a sandbox PvP game then look at what made SWG so good and take that core model. You want a themepark game then look what whats worked and copy that core model. Add all the modern stuff like Vo acting but make sure the core game is something that worked. Then add your new touch to it.

I respect you too noodle and we don't have to agree.  Personally I think the MMOs that have tried something new and failed, did so for other reasons than just trying something new.  I feel like the "core models" is what is wrong with the MMO genre.  I believe that we should look at what worked but I think many developers are overlooking at why it worked.  We can't forget all the MMOs that have used a proven core model and failed.

There is true innovation and it's coming out, almost unseen by the masses.  Give it a few more years and you'll understand what I mean when I say there is a difference between being inspired by another game and trying to recreate it.

Originally posted by baphamet

 

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Originally posted by sapphen

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Originally posted by JasonJ Its a shame too, because so many other TES aspects have been in MMOs before so we know it can be done.

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It is a horrible shame.  TES games have been redefining the RPG genre for years, including many MMOs.  When TES finally gets a MMO, the developers try to copy another game.

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yes, let them make a mmo exactly like the single player games with no end game features at all, is that what you want?

Last time I checked, Oblivion (rank 207) has more players than DAoC (rank 431).  Skyrim is currently ranked 32 on xfire, it has more retention than many other MMOs.  In TES, the game ends when you stop playing it - I could care less for "end game content".  I wanted the little things that defined the TES franchise.

the aspects of daoc they are adopting adds another dynamic to the game, it doesn't take away from it except for faction lock.

Why would TES players want a RvR dynamic to their game in the first place?  Don't get me wrong, I would've liked some kind of PvP system but not at the cost of core elements (like faction/area locks).

the rest of the game, you could argue they took from GW2 and TES series.

people that say this game is just a Daoc rip off (talking about the whole game not just the pvp) are clearly misinformed and are spreading nonsense.

Why are they taking ANYTHING from other games?

TES games have more depth and dynamics than most MMOs out right now.  The whole MMO genre is suffering because of ESO's nonsense.

Originally posted by m0lly

Originally posted by sapphen

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

So by your post above this game is so broken they would need ot start from ground zero to make a game worth being TES MMO? 

I can't speak for him but IMO this game is so fubar, they would need to start from scratch to make a game worthy of the TES name.   Personally, I'm preparing my "I told you so" posts for after the game is released.  Nothing but complete failure will prove to you that this game is broken, from concept to execution.

Bookmark this post and 6 months after the game has been released come back here, I will either eat my words or make you eat yours.

i say you guys need to forget that it needs to be like offline versions of elder scrolls saga, im sure there will be those in future aswell that you can go alone and play happily however you want BUT this is online version and it's hell lot a different cup of tea then. dont try to compare it to be like anything in past. you sleep better eh?

Why not compare it to the previous TES game, it carries the same name.  IMO MMORPGs are not that different from SP-RPGs, I can't help that you have a different opinion (even Oblivion was considered an offline MMO).  There are many similarities between MMOs and RPGs, the tea may be a different flavor but it's still a cup of tea.

Originally posted by JasonJ

Its a shame too, because so many other TES aspects have been in MMOs before so we know it can be done.

It is a horrible shame.  TES games have been redefining the RPG genre for years, including many MMOs.  When TES finally gets a MMO, the developers try to copy another game.

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

So by your post above this game is so broken they would need ot start from ground zero to make a game worth being TES MMO? 

I can't speak for him but IMO this game is so fubar, they would need to start from scratch to make a game worthy of the TES name.   Personally, I'm preparing my "I told you so" posts for after the game is released.  Nothing but complete failure will prove to you that this game is broken, from concept to execution.

Bookmark this post and 6 months after the game has been released come back here, I will either eat my words or make you eat yours.