Today i desided to stop Skyrim till community constructs an overhaul mod of a sort that adresses some issues i encountered and which are considerably cutting down the fun of the game. What issues are those?

1st of all i must inform i play at Master difficulty lvl. right from the 1st dungeon after some experimenting with the difficulty lvls of the game i desided master lvl suited me better.

1. Weapons dmg values : 2 handed weapon dmg values are way overpowered compared to 1 handed dmg values. Simple example im lvl 5 got 1 perk in one handed tree and 1 perk at 2 handed tree and dmg done by 2 handed axe is 26 and 1 handed dmg is 11. Amost 2 times up and a half making changing weapon style during fight (1 h+shield) useless since dmg done by 2H is way more and if u launch  power attacks it goes over triple dmg than 1h weaps. I like to be forced by the various battles to switch styles in order to survive like tactical options but here its 2 handed weaps all the way concerning mellee fights.

2.Difficulty : I evolved the scenarion abit and after exploring 6-7 dungeons,forts ,mines crypts i randomly encountered on the wilds i was very sceptical about what i saw. All and i mean all the monsters,humanoids i encountered were very easy to defeat 2-3 swings from 2 handed or 6-8 from 1handed weaps except the bosses which all were 2 shotting me down. This is kinda ridicullous cause there is a huge gasp of dmg done,life pool beetween normal enemies and bosses.I ended up bored from butchering easilly everything in a cavern till met a bandid boss which 2 shotted me. that was uckward. I recalled both in Morrorwind and Oblivion with OOO mod,there was a chance u could meet strong random humanoids without them being bosses of a sort making difficulty scalling varried and more intresting from fight to fight.

3.Lvl up pace : To be simple here after watching the pace of lvling i immediately downloaded 2 mods that slows down levelling up. Slower Leveling beta which i was currently using, and Slower skill gain.The way they had it wa ding lvl up every 3 minutes inside a dungeon which was making the value of levelling up fade away since when u lvl up after 3-4 fights i got levelled up again. I also dont choose birthsign cause for some reason Bethesda programmers didnt liked Morrorwind's or Oblivion's birthsigns effects and desided to make birthsigns like it is a fast levelling mod or something (warrior,mage,thief +20% faster skill lvl up). I wonder which genius had that idea.

I guess i ll have to wait for an overhaul mod that adress this issues along with any other issues other ppl may have but from what i hear Bethesda wont deliver the tools to the mod community before January so w ell have to wait.

P.S. If anyone spots any mods that adressing any of these issues i referred to pls YELL .No matter if they are beta mods its cool. thanks in advance.

if u exclude the fact birthsigns are fast lvling mods in skyrim the absent of stats, Skyrim has better gameplay .Combat dungeon crawling,exploration,animations, list goes on.

I found though the scenario/main story more intriguing ,more addictive and intresting in Oblivion than in Skyrim. At least so far (havn't evolved much the Skyrim main story).Fighting demonic forces that plot against humanity is usally more catchy than fighting Imperials.

We were talking with some friends about rpg's that can be played coop as campaign and recalled Dungeon Lords 2 which could be played as coop was on the works for way long time. Its name is The orb and the oracle but after searching the net couldnt find any news about if it's stopped as a project,pushback or still under work. We played at past with those friends Dungeon Lords coop and despice bugs it was fun.

Elveon as well was a very promising rpg on the works but seems that also stopped. Anyone got any infos about those 2 rpg's? or any other promising rpg's apart Amalur which most ppl are aware of it?

Age of decadance seems intresting as well(turn based combat) but it seems its delayed as well.

Originally posted by Brenelael

Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree. As for mods changing core gameplay mechanics... not gonna happen. I guess you can always go back and play Daggerfall, Morrowind or Oblivion if you're hung up on it that much. With the popularity of Skyrim and the vast majority of players enjoying the new leveling system it will be very unlikely you'll see Attributes or Birthsigns ever return in any new games in the series either. I guess it sucks to be you... LOL

 

Bren

Jesus once said the cripple shall walk and blind will see. Even Him was wrong.

Originally posted by Brenelael

Originally posted by tazarconan

Originally posted by Brenelael

Originally posted by tazarconan

Originally posted by Brenelael

Originally posted by tazarconan

 

Edit: Oh and how is choosing 3 out of 8 attibutes to raise more complex a system then choosing 1 out of 3 stats to raise and 1 out of 180+ perks to add again? I really don't see your logic as to which is more complex. 3 out of 8 is more complex than 1 out of 3 and 1 out of 180+? Your logic seems very flawed to me.

Bren

Well thats easy. 3 out of 8 gives more options and doubts from 1 out of 3. And lets be honest here life stam and mana are not even attributes. they are the values that used to be changing pre skyrim according to the 8 attributes. Bethesda did those cause they erased the 8 attributes.

But its not the message im trying to pass here in the whole thread. 

Yeah u r right its more complex 180 perks +3 attributes than just 8 attributes. But my proposal was 180 perks+the 8 attributes and keep stamina life mana as indipendent values as it used to be pre skyrim which is even better and more addictive.

And u r talkign about 180 perks. My friend its not 180. Example. I mplaying with my barbarian toon. He he will get some perks from light armour tree,all perks from 2 handed tree,very few perks from sneak tree caus ehe's not assasin or rogue,few perks from block tree maybe very few from heavy armour caus ei have the tendency to use iron or steel shields and that nice iron helmet with the horns that looks awesome. And that's it. Not a single perk from all magic trees, not a single perk from archery. U know how many perks these are? AT most 1/3 which means replayabilityzero cause the perks im forced to take as barbarian are exactly the same each time i try a new game as a barbarian. As for the shitty birthsigns as they made it? I take every time thief sign so i wont lvl up every5 minutes. That s the deep and complex character system of skyrim they made for cheerfull 10 y old psp kids.

Want to know with these 8 attributes and the old birthsign system after starting morrorwind and oblivion every time over 40-50 times what was the same on my barbarian toons? NOTHING!  Yes u read correct ! NOTHING!

I made over 50 barbarian style characters every time with different stats skills or signs. u know the funny thing? They also played diferently. One was faster ,others had tremendous endurance and life pools, others were too strong but low life, others were strong and fast,others were agile adn heavy life pool, agile and strong, agile and fast and so on so on and with different signs every time.

Thats complex. Thats freedom in character creation. No prison bars! Uwant to make your character as u imagine him? there u go! 

I never liked predetermined paths from the devs! I never liked others to deside me what and how i will play it. And i encourage you my friend to do so as well. freedom is better. 

lol... You pidgeon holed yourself into a class and a birthsign before you even started playing the game and then claim you don't like predetermined paths set by the devs? In the new system there is absolutely nothing predetermined for you.

 

 If you brought back attributes and kept the current perk system like you suggest the game would be seriously unbalanced and everyone would be god-like in power by level 10. It just wouldn't work.

 

As for the Birthsigns... The attribute increases that those gave you were totally nullified by level 10. Sure it helped you get started but a 10 point stat bonus is only like 3 level ups. Now I can get bonuses from the standing stones that last throughout the entire life of my character and I can change them whenever *I* choose to. This ups the freedom aspect of the game by about 1000% over the old 'Pidgeon holed into a birthsign at character creation that was totally nullified by level 10' system.

 

Bren

Well only classes i always played in tes series were Barbarian versions and wood elf ranger style versions.Thats the classes i love mostly its not the pidgeon case u describe. As a barbarian the diference was quite clear way way more potential build combos pre-skyrim than that is now. The examples i gave were very clear and easy to understand. Same goes for ranger with the diference that in skyrim i can have more trees of perks to use very few few from illusion, whole archery tree,some from alchemy, and few from restoration.

Cmon if they bring back attributes and keep the perks system u know damn well 2 things. All mosters will have stats as well not only the player, and they can adjust perks strength percentages very easilly for balance purposes.Dont give me crap here.

As for the brithsigns.. who cares to take meaninglless birthsigns that only thing they do is make me lvl every 5 minutes makign leveling proceedure some farming business and it looses the sense of accomplishment. Right now i started game from start and didnt choosed any boirthsign at all and additionally i got a slower leveling mod and enjoying the game much better.

At leats back there in Morrorwind or Oblivion birthsigns added to your whole build package apart from attributes with some abilities. No comparison at all the old birthsigns with skyrim's.In Skyrim signs are just useless unless ofc u prefer fast leveling but for that some mod could that as well in the near future.

Originally posted by DeaconX

Originally posted by Teala

How about no levels, no skill points, no stats at all(atribute poitns that you the player can see) and have the option to choose a birthsign if you like?  I'd rather not see any numbers at all.  

A lot of players don't want to / can't let go of visual progression.
  It's all preference... personally I've always wanted to try a game that hides all the numbers and just lets you develop with everything calculated in the background.

 

Before anyone decides to reply with this, I'll just disarm it right here:

"Yeah, it's called real life!"

Well no, because in real life there are REAL consequences for actions :) give me an awesome game world to develop this way... could be really liberating from the min/maxing we've become so accustomed to.

I played such an rpg many many years ago and i cant remmber the name. It  s not bad as a concept .I like the idea of guessing how and if things on your toon will work without seeing numbers all around.

Originally posted by Brenelael

Originally posted by tazarconan

Originally posted by Brenelael

Originally posted by tazarconan

 

Edit: Oh and how is choosing 3 out of 8 attibutes to raise more complex a system then choosing 1 out of 3 stats to raise and 1 out of 180+ perks to add again? I really don't see your logic as to which is more complex. 3 out of 8 is more complex than 1 out of 3 and 1 out of 180+? Your logic seems very flawed to me.

Bren

Well thats easy. 3 out of 8 gives more options and doubts from 1 out of 3. And lets be honest here life stam and mana are not even attributes. they are the values that used to be changing pre skyrim according to the 8 attributes. Bethesda did those cause they erased the 8 attributes.

But its not the message im trying to pass here in the whole thread. 

Yeah u r right its more complex 180 perks +3 attributes than just 8 attributes. But my proposal was 180 perks+the 8 attributes and keep stamina life mana as indipendent values as it used to be pre skyrim which is even better and more addictive.

And u r talkign about 180 perks. My friend its not 180. Example. I mplaying with my barbarian toon. He he will get some perks from light armour tree,all perks from 2 handed tree,very few perks from sneak tree caus ehe's not assasin or rogue,few perks from block tree maybe very few from heavy armour caus ei have the tendency to use iron or steel shields and that nice iron helmet with the horns that looks awesome. And that's it. Not a single perk from all magic trees, not a single perk from archery. U know how many perks these are? AT most 1/3 which means replayabilityzero cause the perks im forced to take as barbarian are exactly the same each time i try a new game as a barbarian. As for the shitty birthsigns as they made it? I take every time thief sign so i wont lvl up every5 minutes. That s the deep and complex character system of skyrim they made for cheerfull 10 y old psp kids.

Want to know with these 8 attributes and the old birthsign system after starting morrorwind and oblivion every time over 40-50 times what was the same on my barbarian toons? NOTHING!  Yes u read correct ! NOTHING!

I made over 50 barbarian style characters every time with different stats skills or signs. u know the funny thing? They also played diferently. One was faster ,others had tremendous endurance and life pools, others were too strong but low life, others were strong and fast,others were agile adn heavy life pool, agile and strong, agile and fast and so on so on and with different signs every time.

Thats complex. Thats freedom in character creation. No prison bars! Uwant to make your character as u imagine him? there u go! 

I never liked predetermined paths from the devs! I never liked others to deside me what and how i will play it. And i encourage you my friend to do so as well. freedom is better. 

Originally posted by Brenelael

Originally posted by tazarconan

Originally posted by Brenelael

Originally posted by tazarconan

For the last time. The perk system is working and is welcomed in skyrim. NO FRIEKING REASON AT ALL TO REMOVE THE ATTRIBUTES.  Does this compute?

For the last time... The Attribute system was a whole lot of numbers that over complicated the leveling process without a single benefit over the new system. The outcome is the same whether you have the Attributes or not. Maybe you like playing games with speadsheet math but the vast majority of gamers do not. They just want to have fun because that is what games are for... just so you know. Does that compute!?!

 

Edit: Oh, and the Perk System is a major part of the new leveling system. It makes up for not being able to affect skills with attribute points by letting you affect skills directly. You can't discuss one without the other as they work hand in hand. To bring back Attributes would mean they would have to trash the new Perk System to keep the game balanced. Otherwise you'd have level 10 characters that would be god like and unstoppable. The Attribute system has been around since D&D table top RPGs and is a dinosaur at this point. It's about time someone innovated and trashed it for a better system.

 

Bren

So if every time u lvl, you choose 3 out of 8 attributes overcomplicate things? If the brain of adult gamers is getting confused by that maybe we should all start to worry . Are we talking about George Bush junior here?

But dont worry i understand your way of thinking after what u said about the attribute system and d&d table being replaced  by  talent trees.

Ah and by the way Dear Bren speaking about minorities...

8 ppl seems to agree with u in this post. From the poll votes ,9 ppl want the old stats +birthsigns back, 4 ppl want the stats back, and 3 the old birthsigns.

I ll try to simplify this for you since u dont like overcomplicated things.

13 ppl want stats back and another 11the old birthsigns. 9 ppl including u want it to remain as it is. Seems like YOU belong to the MINORITY here.

No, because I and many others didn't vote in your biased one sided poll because you made no option for anyone who differed from your point of view. Your poll is totally bogus as it only represents one side of the argument with no option given for those who oppose you. For every poster who posted their like for new system there could be 10-100 that would have voted without posting. Your little poll is totally invalid.

 

Edit: Oh and how is choosing 3 out of 8 attibutes to raise more complex a system then choosing 1 out of 3 stats to raise and 1 out of 180+ perks to add again? I really don't see your logic as to which is more complex. 3 out of 8 is more complex than 1 out of 3 and 1 out of 180+? Your logic seems very flawed to me.

 

Bren

 

PS: This is how you make an unbiased poll by the way.

Seems we have a draw  xD

Ah lol . Seriously now the reason i didnt putted a 4th option in the poll caus ei sincerely believed that there wouldnt be any ppl around preferring that in skyrim shouldnt appear the stats additionally to the new perk system. And thats all the way honestly. I dont know if now it is possible to edit the poll and add an additional slot though somehow.

Originally posted by Brenelael

Originally posted by tazarconan

For the last time. The perk system is working and is welcomed in skyrim. NO FRIEKING REASON AT ALL TO REMOVE THE ATTRIBUTES.  Does this compute?

For the last time... The Attribute system was a whole lot of numbers that over complicated the leveling process without a single benefit over the new system. The outcome is the same whether you have the Attributes or not. Maybe you like playing games with speadsheet math but the vast majority of gamers do not. They just want to have fun because that is what games are for... just so you know. Does that compute!?!

 

Edit: Oh, and the Perk System is a major part of the new leveling system. It makes up for not being able to affect skills with attribute points by letting you affect skills directly. You can't discuss one without the other as they work hand in hand. To bring back Attributes would mean they would have to trash the new Perk System to keep the game balanced. Otherwise you'd have level 10 characters that would be god like and unstoppable. The Attribute system has been around since D&D table top RPGs and is a dinosaur at this point. It's about time someone innovated and trashed it for a better system.

 

Bren

So if every time u lvl, you choose 3 out of 8 attributes overcomplicate things? If the brain of adult gamers is getting confused by that maybe we should all start to worry . Are we talking about George Bush junior here?

But dont worry i understand your way of thinking after what u said about the attribute system and d&d table being replaced  by  talent trees.

Ah and by the way Dear Bren speaking about minorities...

8 ppl seems to agree with u in this post. From the poll votes ,9 ppl want the old stats +birthsigns back, 4 ppl want the stats back, and 3 the old birthsigns.

I ll try to simplify this for you since u dont like overcomplicated things.

13 ppl want stats back and another 11the old birthsigns. 9 ppl including u want it to remain as it is. Seems like YOU belong to the MINORITY here.

Originally posted by GTwander

Originally posted by tazarconan

I 100% disagree with you.

CHARACTER BUILD/ADVANCEMENT :
1. Does anyone else remember how much it SUCKED having stats that push you into grinding *exactly* 10 in an associated skill in order to keep the gains at a clean +5? It's been like that since Daggerfall, for all I know, and it's always sucked. First thing I do in Oblivion? The Arena to bump heavy armor/ block to the point where i consistantly get +5 endurance each level... and having to constantly pump the solitary +1 into luck every level in the hopes to hit 100 (impossible without theif sign too).

You spend less time playing the game, and much more grinding certain skills in order to meet a quota by the time the ding hits you.

Yeah, I'm glad they got rid of it... the perks system works just fine - and YES - your "Barbarian" is the very name of the first perk in the 2h-tree. Pick it.

2.Birthsigns: Now you can switch on the fly instead of making a brand new character to test them? Oh noes! Plust the lover sign is far better than warrior/thief/etc... but why not go with steed? It makes you run faster - so thats on *you*.



WEAPON BALANCE:It's fine, the problem is mob balance and making gear OP through potions + smithing + enchants. Gamebreaking, IF you go ahead and waste 30 perks that *could* have instead been put towards, you know, combat abilities.

ARCHERY : I have beefs with it too, sometimes, but Mount and Blade isn't going to be ressurected on Sunday and haul everyone off in the Rapture either. My real gripe is that stealth + archery = exploit. It can be interesting to consitantly fool a high level mob to wander around looking for you, while you pelt him with arrows, but it's overall pretty lame... but sometimes thats the only way for my fighter char to handle some of them. When things start shouting back, it gets universally hairy.

LIFE REGENERATION: I like regens, and if you really don't want to regen mana, pick the atronach sign like in every other game. I'm personally waiting on a hardcore mode that makes food/drink/sleep necessary, but only because food/drink/sleep is f**king pointless.

 

1.CHARACTER BUILD/ADVANCEMENT : I never felt being pushed into doing something in order to get maximum profit, that's maybe something u should do as well?? never tried to grind anything in past TES games since grinding is a repeatable boring proceedure associated with mmorpg's mostly ,while in TES we all have our fun. If u want to try find exploits u can find in almost every game .Raising the stats is a quite ethistic factor in all rpg's anwy.The other choise is to just play the game normally and enjoy it's depth. There IS a reason u know TES series got established in the rpg scene and one of the main reasons was the unique and addictive character advancement system a sit was PRE-SKYRIM.

2.Birthsigns: Want to compare the old with the new birthsigns and see for yourself which is deeper and what it offers?

                                      SKYRIM                                                          PRE- SKYRIM 

THIEF SIGN :          skills 20% faster                                   Fortify   Agility+Luck+Speed 10 points

WARRIOR SIGN :  skills 20% faster                                   Fortify   Endurance+ Strength 10 points

MAGE SIGN   :        skills 20% faster                                   Fortify  Magicka  50 points

LOVER SIGN    :     All skills 15% faster                              Paralyze 10 secs on touch at cost of 120 points of fatique

TOWER SIGN : Unlock expert or lower locks 1 per day      Open average lock+reflect 5% dmg on self  for 120 secs

LADY SIGN  : Regenerates Life +stamina 25% faster         Fortify Willpower+Endurance 10 points

4 of the most important signs have been turned out into fater lvling mods and for that if i wanted faster lvling i would download a module that does that.(war,thief,mage,Lover),Tower lost reflect dmg ability, Lady sign could be ok for some, but as u said after battles its useless since u can wait or rest /wait 1 hour and during battles u can fool/run around and heal /regain stamina.

All the old signs (pre-skyrim)were usefull,intresting ,and had a direct impact to your character.

If u have the minimum perception required u can understand that. Other than that i understand that there are ppl around that prefer oversimplified or shallow character advancement systems, but that's not the very core /idea of elder scroll series character advancement system.

The rest about archery i agree. Life or mana regen could be easily fixed by mods for those who prefer too.

Originally posted by Brenelael

Originally posted by tazarconan

Originally posted by Mithrandolir

Originally posted by Brenelael

Where's the option for people who like the new system better? The new 3 Stat + Skill Perks allows for much more direct character development without loosing any of the depth we've come to expect from an Elder Scrolls game. It also allows for a lot more active combat whereas before the 25/50/75/100 perk unlocks were mostly non-active perks and most were barely noticable. Now when you spend a perk point the difference is very noticable. Also the 'being locked into a birthsign from character creation' sucked to be perfectly honest. The new system allows you to tailor your character to whatever skills you may be working on at that time.

I was very skeptical of the new system during development but now after actually trying it I never want to go back. It is a lot more streamlined while not loosing any of the depth the old system had. After all when you spent points on attributes before it was to indirectly affect your Health, Fatigue, Magicka and Skills. The new system just cuts out the middle man and allows you more direct control over your character's development.

 

Bren

^ I would like to add myself to your list please :)

I love it the way it is right now. I didn't think i would, but I do. I feel so much more direct control over my character. And I feel a freedom to focus on the things that matter most to me, exploration and adventure.

 

 

None said that perk system is not good or it is not working. All i stated is there was no reason to remove all those stats and leave only stam life and mana. They could simply leave the stats as they were and just add the perk system. None understood why they did it. Its a huge mistake and i just hope that either Bethesda corrects it. or some genius guy with a mod implements it ( im afraid it would be very hard due to programming restrictions ,coding mechanisms i dont know)

You keep talking like you represent the majority of gamers which you do not. You may not like it but by the rave reviews by both professionals and gamers alike I would say you are in a major minority here.

 

Bren

Take a walk  in your google and u ll find that removing attributes from Skyrim was something many many ppl dint liked.

I just represent a casta of ppl that if u serve them shit on a plate to eat in their table ,they ll throw that  plate to your facealong with the shit.

And just for your info if the majority of gamers nowdays are a bunch of console like rpg funs i surely am not a part of it.

For the last time. The perk system is working and is welcomed in skyrim. NO FRIEKING REASON AT ALL TO REMOVE THE ATTRIBUTES.  Does this compute?

Originally posted by Brenelael

Originally posted by tazarconan

Originally posted by Brenelael

Where's the option for people who like the new system better? The new 3 Stat + Skill Perks allows for much more direct character development without loosing any of the depth we've come to expect from an Elder Scrolls game. It also allows for a lot more active combat whereas before the 25/50/75/100 perk unlocks were mostly non-active perks and most were barely noticable. Now when you spend a perk point the difference is very noticable. Also the 'being locked into a birthsign from character creation' sucked to be perfectly honest. The new system allows you to tailor your character to whatever skills you may be working on at that time.

I was very skeptical of the new system during development but now after actually trying it I never want to go back. It is a lot more streamlined while not loosing any of the depth the old system had. After all when you spent points on attributes before it was to indirectly affect your Health, Fatigue, Magicka and Skills. The new system just cuts out the middle man and allows you more direct control over your character's development.

 

Bren

Without loosing any of the depth we ve to expect from TES? Dude are u serious? None denies that Attributes+birthsign system as it was removed is a huge let down for Skyrim.There are vast numbers of complaints from dissapointed ppl about this issue. I dont understand why every time u lvl we can t  have the ability to raise Strength ,agility,speed,willpower,Luck,Personality,Endurance,Intelligence and instead raise just 3 stam,life ,mana??? WHY?

the old birthsiugn system also had a meaning, according to the choise u made  it had an IMPACT to your character. Here Brithsigns apart u can choose at start only 3 they are crap!! Raising just thelvling speed of the assosiated skills? Are u serious? Go check out the old birthsign system to refresh your memory cause apparently eithe ru have gasps or u never played Oblivion or Morrorwind.See how it used to be. If u are a fun of shallow character development system or u think the simpliest the better its cool. Just not cool with the majority of ppl and all those who have demands and high standards on these things.

You were just raising those 3 by adjusting all of those stats anyways or affecting your skills in some way. Now you adjust the 3 directly and effect your skills directly using perks. It's a much better system. I played Arena for over a year, Daggerfall for well over 2 years, Morrowind for at least 5 years and Oblivion for at least 4-5 as well. I've probably logged a damn sight more TES hours than you so don't act like your some kind of Elder Scrolls authority because you're not. A lot of people like the new system better. Just judging by this thread the fact that not one poster agrees with you should fill you in on your minority status on this point. Just because a vocal minority on a few forums are making some noise doesn't magically make them a majority. There is nothing shallow about the new system unless you are totally blind to change.

 

Bren

Correction: You were desiding which 3 out of  the 8 available attributes u wanted to pick. In skyrim u can choose to raise stamina life and mana directly and these are not even attributes. Seems u dont evn know the basics for or at least know what basics principals are for rpg's in consoles . Which is exactly what Bethesda did in this case. I dont know if if is a better sytem as u suggest i know it s quite worst way more shallow than the case attributes existed  alongside with the perks than just the perks.Honestly i dont know what u cant understand here.

Do you suggest that having attributes along with perks system would not make a deeper character developing system than it is now?

Just dont expect ppl to be thankfull for making the well working character build system we all played with all these years in Daggerfall,Morrorwind and Oblivion into a character system similar to DIABLO series where u each time u lvl up u raise stam life and mana only, and picking some talents in a talent tree. Cause rpg's aint about that.thats wow or console shit things pretend to be role playign games.

Originally posted by Mithrandolir

Originally posted by Brenelael

Where's the option for people who like the new system better? The new 3 Stat + Skill Perks allows for much more direct character development without loosing any of the depth we've come to expect from an Elder Scrolls game. It also allows for a lot more active combat whereas before the 25/50/75/100 perk unlocks were mostly non-active perks and most were barely noticable. Now when you spend a perk point the difference is very noticable. Also the 'being locked into a birthsign from character creation' sucked to be perfectly honest. The new system allows you to tailor your character to whatever skills you may be working on at that time.

I was very skeptical of the new system during development but now after actually trying it I never want to go back. It is a lot more streamlined while not loosing any of the depth the old system had. After all when you spent points on attributes before it was to indirectly affect your Health, Fatigue, Magicka and Skills. The new system just cuts out the middle man and allows you more direct control over your character's development.

 

Bren

^ I would like to add myself to your list please :)

I love it the way it is right now. I didn't think i would, but I do. I feel so much more direct control over my character. And I feel a freedom to focus on the things that matter most to me, exploration and adventure.

 

 

None said that perk system is not good or it is not working. All i stated is there was no reason to remove all those stats and leave only stam life and mana. They could simply leave the stats as they were and just add the perk system. None understood why they did it. Its a huge mistake and i just hope that either Bethesda corrects it. or some genius guy with a mod implements it ( im afraid it would be very hard due to programming restrictions ,coding mechanisms i dont know)

Originally posted by Brenelael

Where's the option for people who like the new system better? The new 3 Stat + Skill Perks allows for much more direct character development without loosing any of the depth we've come to expect from an Elder Scrolls game. It also allows for a lot more active combat whereas before the 25/50/75/100 perk unlocks were mostly non-active perks and most were barely noticable. Now when you spend a perk point the difference is very noticable. Also the 'being locked into a birthsign from character creation' sucked to be perfectly honest. The new system allows you to tailor your character to whatever skills you may be working on at that time.

I was very skeptical of the new system during development but now after actually trying it I never want to go back. It is a lot more streamlined while not loosing any of the depth the old system had. After all when you spent points on attributes before it was to indirectly affect your Health, Fatigue, Magicka and Skills. The new system just cuts out the middle man and allows you more direct control over your character's development.

 

Bren

Without loosing any of the depth we ve to expect from TES? Dude are u serious? None denies that Attributes+birthsign system as it was removed is a huge let down for Skyrim.There are vast numbers of complaints from dissapointed ppl about this issue. I dont understand why every time u lvl we can t  have the ability to raise Strength ,agility,speed,willpower,Luck,Personality,Endurance,Intelligence and instead raise just 3 stam,life ,mana??? WHY?

the old birthsiugn system also had a meaning, according to the choise u made  it had an IMPACT to your character. Here Brithsigns apart u can choose at start only 3 they are crap!! Raising just thelvling speed of the assosiated skills? Are u serious? Go check out the old birthsign system to refresh your memory cause apparently eithe ru have gasps or u never played Oblivion or Morrorwind.See how it used to be. If u are a fun of shallow character development system or u think the simpliest the better its cool. Just not cool with the majority of ppl and all those who have demands and high standards on these things.

Simply would u like the known  Morrorwind / Oblivion stats+birthsigns implemented along with the perks ,in future patch by Bethesda ?   (Perks system remains as it is) My opinion about Skyrim Birthsign system  is this.

Birthsigns: One of the reason Oblivion and Morrowind character development wa sso deep was the birthsigns system. Ok here what they did is hilarious. Not only they let u choose after the tutorial dungeon just 3 but they also scattered the rest into the whole world so u can change while u playing after a certain point if u happen to meet them. And they way they made them ,birthsigns were more meaningfull in Obliv+Morrowind. I recall every time i played my barbarian toon in Oblivion in every new game i had to choose over 6-7 intresting birthsigns that were sticking to my class, i played with Steed,warrior thief,Lady mark a life regen mark etc etc it was a dilemma what to take especially alongside with the attributes build i had in mind and also the skills. But hey here there are not attributes.Apart that ofc if u play a mellee fitgher or even an archery there is not even the slightiest dilemma on what to take its WARRIOR sign all the way since they had the clever idea to put also archery on warrior sign instead of theif.

P.S. The results of the poll i intend send to Bethesda's  mail ,head programer's mail  till i get a respond from them which i am going to announce here in this site when i recieve it.

Originally posted by Starpower

Console gamers are apparently soccer moms, busy dads and 12 year old boys that doesn't like having to think about character development or simply can't figure basic RPG out. Maybe I'm generalizing too much here but it seems, that's how game developers think about their customerbase . God forbid we add some customization to a game to deter the uber casual gamers out there. We might sell a few less copies.

 

 

So basically the way of thinking of Skyrim programming team was : Less work for them if they  removed stats, simplified character developement for busy players that dont have much time to play despice the fact that the majority of players dont like that.

I don't know ,dont like much that type of thinking.

Ok i played Skyrim 5 days now, im progressing through main story line and also doing side quests i meet on my way exploring some caves/dungeons i meet in various spots, fighted a lot so far and liked it alot. Here below i post some things that made me a negative impression adn i think they r cutting from the game and i hopefully looking into future mods to be made to improve the game .

CHARACTER BUILD/ADVANCEMENT :
1. After i played over2+ years Morrorwind and 2+years Oblivion i played loads of new games with different characters or same characters with microchanges to borthsigns or stats focus routes. My favoutirte 2 characters archetypes were a Nord Barbarian and a wood elf Ranger style toon with bow,sneak,2handed and 1 handed swords+shield.
You can understand my frustration as i realised there are no stats to diverse,differentise my character apart Life,stamina and mana.Strenght agility speed Endurance Personality Willpower Luck.ALL GONE! WHY?? Seriously i couldnt find a reason to remove them as they gave alot of depth and diversing your characters from one another. I mean they made the perks to add depth in character creation but they removed the stats!! In Oblivion i played over 30 different Barbarian types from the start Light armour and sneaky focus with Sword focus,or axe+maces focused,light+heavy armour,Luck focus+birthsign or thief or str+agil focus with sign of the steed ,endurance focus with loads of life + 1h +shield focus or 2 h focus, and all these over 30 types of same almost classes all played and reacted diferently in the game .Some of them were faster and it felt while playing, some were more agile, others more rough n tough, here in Skyrim all of them are playing exactly the same reducing replayability tons if u want to play with Barbarian style toon since only perk trees i can get involved is Sneak and only up to a small point since hes not assasin, 2handed weaps,1 hand weaps,block and since the perks are obvious on what to take ther eis no point to play game from start cutting replaybility for me to zero.

2.Birthsigns: One of the reason Oblivion and Morrowind character development wa sso deep was the birthsigns system. Ok here what they did is hilarious. Not only they let u choose after the tutorial dungeon just 3 but they also scattered the rest into the whole world so u can change while u playing after a certain point if u happen to meet them. And they way they made them ,birthsigns were more meaningfull in Obliv+Morrowind. I recall every time i played my barbarian toon in Oblivion in every new game i had to choose over 6-7 intresting birthsigns that were sticking to my class, i played with Steed,warrior thief,Lady mark a life regen mark etc etc it was a dilemma what to take especially alongside with the attributes build i had in mind and also the skills. But hey here there are not attributes.Apart that ofc if u play a mellee fitgher or even an archery there is not even the slightiest dilemma on what to take its WARRIOR sign all the way since they had the clever idea to put also archery on warrior sign instead of theif. BRAVO!!!

So, so far, they deleted the attributes and cuttered down to hell the birthsigns

WEAPON BALANCE:In Oblivion when a 2 handed did 14-15 dmg the one hand on my toons did around 9-11in a specific moment. Ok .. so in my Skyrim scrren apears to be a 2handed weap that does 28 dmg and my one hand weap says 12 and they are both of same quality. Keep in mind that i have +20% dmg on 2 handed weaps from perks and +40% one handed weapos on perk. Steel wepaons both. Not quite a choise of what to use in battles whatever the situation is since the 2 handed is soon going to reach almost triple dmg compared to 1 handed weaps. Again very well down Bethesda. Ofc i like to smash my opponents with my 1 handed axe or sword but i also need the combat to be tactical,theere SHOULD be moments that i SHOULD change to shield +1 hand but heeey, Bethesda thinks not.

ARCHERY : Whoever played alot Mount & blade warband knows it has the best archery combat system in market. Its utterly realistic, the trajectories of the arrows are exactly as they should, when u pull your bow and aiming it feels like it is exactlyy that what u are doing and its hell of a sight to watch the arrow u throwed and its course till the moment it land on the oppenent 's chest head ,butt or whatever u aimed for. It also reacts accordingly to your archery skill meaning bow isnt stable when u aim in low skill lvls and your marking improves when the skill is raised slowly but noticeably. When i look at skyrim 's archery its clunky ,unrealistic the way its done , i mean even oBlivion's archery was way better. if they couldn't copy/paste m&b archery and not improve Oblivion's archery let it be that way dont make it worst !

LIFE REGENERATION: Thankfully there is already a mod out there called no more life regeneration im just hoping in the future for a No mana regeneration Mod as well so that making or buying mana potions or finding resting places to have a meaning on the game.

The rest of the game aspects of the game i witnessed sp far meaning ,outdoors deisgn,dungeons,crypts ,atmosphere,fear (sometimes in dark corners i panic!) ,graficks ,melee combat ,spells evrything is so awesome!!!! I just hope that player mod community comes fast with mods that alter its gameplay to everyone's personal taste.

I personally pray for a mod that brings the traditional Birthsigns back and IF possible im not sure it can be done ,a mod that add stats to the character (im afraid it cant be done i just hope it can or Bethesda brigns them back), cause for me thew hottest part in these rpg's is the vision of the character builds and progress. the deepest, the better.

Originally posted by Malaksbane

Originally posted by tazarconan
....

I gave an example in older post. there is a knight thats been around in the world gave many fights hes expirienced (playying GW 2 over a year).  And there is that young fellow that is more talented than the knight(player skill wise) but inexpirienced since he's young (just made it to lvl cap / new to GW 2). These 2 fellas meet in pvp tournament. Knight's expirience can be represented by gear but in GW 2 such thing doesnt exist since all players have same gear during pvp and therefore the knight looses. Is it fair? I think not .

 

There you clash with GW's design philosophy, skill > time, skill over time. Is it fair when a not-so-skilled player who has better gear because he has more time to spend wins from a talented and skilled player who can not burn the same amount of time as  the first? I think not, and in GW you can not win from another player simply by burning more time grinding for better gear, in GW you win by training to increase your skill and experience.

 

Thats what u guys some times dont understand. I never said a poor skill player wins due to gear a skill player. Sersly guys  read carefully. I said a medium going guy vs a bit better skilled person. What i suggest was gear must add some bonuses just not that much as it is for example in wow or other mmorpgs.

Originally posted by Drachasor

Oh, so you ignored my examples of games that don't have any remotely significant gear acquisition and then acted like all RPGs must have this?

Any signficiant acquisition of gear at max level will become a grind, since you'll have to do something over and over again to get it.  Content will either have to be balanced around the best gear or the best gear just makes content a joke (and hence not very fun).  Hence anyone who wants to do content in the end-game will have to do whatever treadmill is setup to get gear and hence do a grind.  It's pretty unavoidable.  Not having significant max level gear progression is the best way to avoid a grind.

I would note that classic RPGs do not have significant max level gear progression either.  You don't spend 20 hours playing BG at max level working on repeatedly replacing your gear.  So GW2 is certainly more in their footsteps than a game like WoW.

And a real novice character is lower in level than the experience character.  That's as much as the game needs to represent that sort of thing beyond actual skill.

I dint ignored the examples u gave. The ones i quote were the ones i had certain disagreements. Suffice to say that wehn GW 2 comes we ll see how end game goes w/o gear gaining and what the game has to offe rto players to counter its absence. Time will tell , number of subscriptions also. What i hope is ANET to see what s going on around them and take decisions towards the best for da game.

Originally posted by rdash

@tazarconan

Actually, vast majority of RPGs that have progression, have limited progression - just like GW2. They have endpoint, unlike gear grinders like WoW. So you prove nothing with those examples.

As for PvP, competition isn't about the most experienced players winning. It never was. It is all about the best winning - whether they are newcomers or veterans, as long as their skill and skill alone is superior, they should win. That's the definition of fairness. According to your definition of fairness, most experienced football teams should have additional players on field to ensure their experience wins, which is pretty much the opposite of fair game. GW2 provides equal footing, on which only skill prevails - and if that experienced player is truely experienced, he will defeat newcomers with skill he acquired with this experience.

I m glad you took the conversation in football.

And i ll talk with an example.

Marseille- Borrusia Dortmud 3-0 Olympiakos -Borrusia Dortmud 3-1 What we have here is Dortmud in superior form playing great gootball in Germany while at same time Marseille is at the bottom positions in Champiogna having great problems and Olympiakos in very bad physical shape due to certain problems due to delayed start of greek super league.. They both took Dortmud's scalp for one and only reason. Dortmud  despice their superiority on SKILL they lack expirience. those players never played CHAMPIONS League. Both Olympiakos and Marseille are expirienced teams though. And due to that expirience they stealed victories. And right now Dortmud doesnt have a chance to progress from the group and u have Marseille and Olympiakos gihting each other who will progress along with Arsenal.

How about that for the definition of fairness??

U shouldnt mention football cause its full of examples like those i gave and its also a rule that EXPIRIENCE PAWNS YOUTH.