As another poster earlier on in this thread has stated, this game is sounding very reminiscent of Gods and Heroes -- a game that, unfortunately, never saw the light of day.

But more than that, STO reminds me a lot in basic design of Guild Wars, giving players the option of playing in groups or with henchmen/Heroes or with a mix of both other players and NPCs.

I think this is a really good thing. There are plenty of MMOs out there for group-minded individuals; there are relatively few that allow players to form their own crews/teams and just play the game rather than futzing around endlessly in LFG.

Simply stated, I like grouping occasionally, but if this game was not offering the NPC crew option, I would not play it. I see this game, if handled correctly, as a successor to Guild Wars (much more so than GW2, in fact). I am really looking forward to playing it.

I really enjoyed this article and agree with much of it. However, I do not agree with your definition of "hardcore":

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"The truth of hardcore is that it is about the amount of hours put in, not what people enjoy doing in those hours."

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My definition of hardcore is players who are exceptionally dedicated to playing a game, not in terms of hours spent, but in terms of content and/or attitude.

Me, I play a lot, but I do not consider myself "hardcore." My sister plans her playing time around guild raid schedules -- *that's* hardcore, imo. People who are critical of other players' character builds, gear, or playing style are also hardcore (in that I think they are taking a game very seriously). I don't think of "hardcore" as a pejorative description, just that it refers to someone who is really much more dedicated to a particular game than the average player, the "hardcore" percentage of any MMO is probably only about 5 to 15% of an MMO's player base.

I guess I just generally use the word "hardcore" in the sense of evident player attitude toward the game in question, something that may -- or may not -- be reflected by the time spent playing.

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Originally posted by ntrust
As much as i liked GW before, as much i understand now it's a piece of wood. They claim their advantages "Easy access to pvp, "you never play alone" bla bla ". First - the pvp is unacessible. If you want you may play with random teams and it's not fun, if you want to win you need military discipline and about 7 more ppl available with ventrillo or at least 3 ppl for TA. Second the pve is alfull, you can't make a party with 8 living people anymore, everybody is playing with the stupid bots. The game is totally ruined.

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The "stupid bots" are the main reason I stayed with this game so long and enjoyed it so much. GW was and remains one of the only first-rate MMOs where I don't have to wait and wait and WAIT to form a party to complete a mission, carry out a quest, or explore a dungeon.

Yes, I like to group, too, but I don't want to be dependent on it -- as I have been in WoW and as I currently am in LotRO -- in order to complete interesting content, dungeons, and quests.

The sad thing about this latest "woop-de-do" update in GW is that there is nothing in it, so far as I can tell, that would make me want to play the game again. More storage is just not going to cut it.

I just want to say that I like what I am hearing about STO so far -- even the wrath of STO's critics is gratifying.

Whenever anyone posts a rant about STO and then "stomps off" stating that he or she will NOT be playing this game, I just smile and think "that's great!" Such posters would not be happy in STO and, what is more important to me, I would not be happy having them around while I play STO. So, I see this situation as a complete Win-Win for everybody.

Based on what I am hearing thus far, STO sounds in many ways similar to Guild Wars, an essentially single-player game with a healthy and substantial (but OPTIONAL) MMO component, all thanks to the use of NPC groupmates. Sadly (and stupidly, imo), AreneNet is abandoning this winning game mechanic in their design of Guild Wars 2, but, happily, it looks like STO is going to pick up the ball dropped by ArenaNet and carry it forward. Exit ArenaNet/Guild Wars 1 but -- hooray! -- here comes Cryptic/STO to fill the void.

This sounds absolutely perfect to me. Guild Wars was not a game for everyone, but it hit just the right note for me. It's good to see that another game is on the horizon for players like me.

I think STO is going to be great fun. I am so encouraged by the direction Cryptic is taking this game.

I find the hubbub about the coming changes rather amusing. In my opinion the changes are great and much improve the fun factor of this game.

For those looking for more of a challenge, turn the features off or do not use them (Though I strongly suspect that most of the critics will be using these new features along with the rest of us -- just not admitting that they do. That way they can still be "game purists" and still reap the benefits of these new features. What a deal!)

The quest tracker is a good idea because it declutterizes the Advice window.

"Where is Glorfindel?"

Five minutes later....

"Where is Glorfindel?

Eight minutes later...

"Where is Glorfindel?"

Heck, I am turning to online help myself constantly (and usually in frustration) to find where some blasted quest item or NPC is located. How fun is that? The quest tracker just incorporates a guidance option like that into the game instead of having to exit the game and surf the web.

I do hope the feature is key mappable, as I'd like the option to turn it on *only* when I'm really stumped and frustrated and unable to find something or someone on my own. I would have preferred to see a Quest Tracker on/off toggle button on the minimap, but oh well.

As for the self-rez, I think that's a good idea, too.

I love LotRO; I think it's a great and fun game, but I find the Luddite resistance to any helpful changes and improvements to the game on the part of some of LotRO's ardent fans to be, frankly, both puzzling and humorous.

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Originally posted by Aganazer
I would like to add that the author of this review made one of the worst mistakes that the author of any MMOG can do. She didn't experience enough of the game to fully understand what makes the game compelling. It would be much more fitting if the "review" were renamed "impressions".

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The review is titled an "Early Game Review", by which I presume it to be a review based on the early content, so, I'd say the reviewer made no "mistake". I don't want to have to level a toon up to a much higher level in order to start having "fun". If an MMO (or any game, really) starts out badly, that's usually it for me.

The other points you make in your post (on page 1 ) were valid and interesting. My chief concern with this MMO -- as with any MMO -- is soloability vs. grouping. I enjoy grouping with other players if there are any around, but I really hate being "stuck" and unable to move forward because of the inability to find a group. This is the bane of most MMOs, in my opinion, and it sounds (in DDO) as though it is a particularly vexing problem.

The emphasis of the developers on that second "M" in MMORPG is going to be the death knell for any game like this. Even for people who especially enjoy the communal aspects of an MMO, not having also large amounts of soloable content is a major tactical error, in my opinion. Once I read that, I lost all interest in SQO.

Not including substantial amounts of solo content, to cover those times a player doesn't feel like grouping, is just really really dumb.

Well, just for the record, I had never played any of Bioware's games but, in anticipation of this MMO title, I picked up a copy of Knights of the Old Republic and tried it out.

I am not that far into it and the game is old, dated and yet ... I am very impressed with it. It is very rich on story, I like the dialog trees, and the (varying) consequences depending on the choices that you make in game. I am also impressed with the writing and voice acting. The NPCs seem very multi-dimensional out and believeable. And this is a relatively older game.

The writing, story depth, voice acting, gameplay, and general attention to detail I have observed in Knights of the Old Republic all makes me very optimistic about SWTOR.

Unlike the author of this piece, I do enjoy playing alts, since I learn a lot more about other classes and how they play that way. I also think playing alts adds a new spin to the game, even if you are doing quests you have done before, if you are completing those quests on a different class.

That is sort of what I was expecting from this article, based on the title: a fresh look at the starter quests and a basic evaluation of how the RK class plays.

My own experience with the RK was not as positive, I guess, though I only got him to level 13 or 14 or so. Of the various classes I have played -- burglar, guardian, minstrel, captain, hunter, lore-master, and champion (all to at least the mid to upper 30s and several far beyond that point) -- I found my RK (also a dwarf) to be hands-down the least fun class to play.

A few of the reasons...

--the bug-zapping noise(s) of the various skills he used were annoying
--the general squishiness of the class (light armor, slow inductions) was frustrating
--the slowness of the attunement system was also frustrating
--my own uncertainty about how a given runestone type really affected my skills overall
--the fact that, in groups, 9 times out of 10 an RK is expected to heal and not dps

These are some of the reasons my RK has been parked in Ered Luin for many many weeks now, unplayed. Some of the posters here have given me *more* useful information than the original article and for that I am grateful. Most importantly, I have learned that the RK doesn't "shine" till level 15 or so. But I doubt I will go back to this class even so until I find an article that actually explains the class better and/or until Turbine fixes the sound effects for RKs, which I found really quite annoying.

The new look is great. I do wish users could customize the home a page a bit so that forums/games they are most interested in could be short-listed someplace convenient.

I think it's an improvement. It is better organized and easier to get around, imo.

The shots look very good, imo. If this game turns out as well as I suspect it will -- AND -- is more affordable than WoW, I think it's going to offer some real competition to WoW in the MMO market.

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Originally posted by amimia
So I just want to through this out there, you keep saying that WOW does some things better. Now think about it. WOW has been out alot longer and early stages of WOW they suffered in these  same areas that you are complaining about.

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My point exactly. WoW learned and made adjustments; I am hoping Turbine will do the same -- in some of the areas I suggested making changes, which I consider faulty, broken, and/or inadequate.

The fundamental problem in any level-based game (LotRO, WoW, EQ, etc.), imo, is how do you deal with the general thinning of the mid-level population? Think about it: with each new expansion, the world gets bigger, the player population more spread out. Travel times become more of an issue, as does group finding. Yes, you will get new players when a new expansion is released; many new players will start out but many of these people will fizzle out as they get to the mid-range regions, and many many players (perhaps most) will have already advanced their characters up to the max levels and be concentrated in the latest and newest areas.

So, when the "Mordor" expansion finally comes out in, what, 2013?, how many players will still be in Moria -- or Trollshaws for that matter? How will the few players left at those levels be able to complete books 4, 5, 6, etc.? Kins can help but kins are not the answer. If the game gets too frustrating people will leave it.

If I were advising Turbine, I'd be telling them they may need to develop "solo versions" for a lot of the epic quests for Book 1 onward or the whole epic quest line is going to be one big fail. I could also see Turbine changing areas such as Dol Dinen into non-elite areas as it becomes harder and harder to find groups for these areas. This is what WoW did with many (probably most) of its low- to mid-range elite content). I wonder whether Turbine will eventually have to do likewise.

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Originally posted by Bedlem3342

Well if everything in lotro can't compare to WoW, then why in god's name did you quit? lol i mean c'mon now.

Btw one big thing i would suggest is join a guild.

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Well, fundamentally, LotRO is a better game than WoW. That's why I quit WoW. That does not mean, however, that WoW does not do *some* things much better than LotRO or that Turbine can't learn a thing or two of value from other games.

My hope is that LotRO's developers are more, errr, flexible and creative when it comes to innovation and adjusting to shifts in player populations, etc., than many of the game's players, who often seem to have a "don't change a thing" attitude about, well, just about everything.

My central point, by which I still stand, is that if Turbine fails to simplify or improve group-finding, the game is not going to "age" well and is going to be hit hard by the release of other games. I mention SWTOR particularly because, imo, SWTOR will be competing for the same general type of PvE/story-focused player that is currently playing LotRO -- much moreso than, say, other games that have recently been released or are in development.

Understand that I think LotRO is a good game, it's just it's longevity I am doubtful about -- based on what I am seeing in game thus far.

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Along with all of this new content, two new classes have been added to the game: the Warden and the Rune-Keeper. The first, the Warden, is a melee combat specialist, while the Rune-Keeper is a “magic” specialist. Both classes have the newly introduced Gambits. These are special moves that you learn like other skills. The activate a gambit you need to use your skills in a specific order in order to make the Gambit available for use. Only the Rune-Keeper and Warden currently have access to the Gambit system.

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Ummm... Not to be nitpicky, but only Wardens (not RKs) can use gambits. Rune-keepers have an attunement bar, a very different sort of thing.

Good review, otherwise. :)

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Originally posted by Sovrath
As far as your bulleting board idea, I like it but why would players be more apt to use it over shouting "LFG"?

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--Because you could post once and not have to spam/repeat the message
--Because, at a glance, you could see what groups were forming in whatever areas might interest you
--Because you could work in another area entirely but post interest in quest(s) and areas outside your region
--Because I could craft in Bree but still be in LFF in Lone Lands
--Because I could see groups forming for instances and quests in other areas than the one I am in
--Because, at a glance at the LFF page, you could see, for example, a group forming for Fornost even if you happened to be in Rivendell, and the group could then summon you to Fornost quickly
--Because you could continue to prospect in Trollshaws but be "advertised" as interested in doing "Master of the Black Tide" in Dol Dinen, etc.

Likewise for groups that are forming, they could find (and relatively easily summon) prospective players from just about anywhere. You would basically be increasing your prospective player pool by a huge amount.

The possibilities are very good; but, overall, the best thing is that you would not be obligated to "hang about" in any particular area just so you can read and/or spam to the LFF channel in that location. You would never again, for example, have to hang around North Downs -- even though all your other quests there are done -- just so you can find a group for Fornost.

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Originally posted by Sovrath
I'm not doubting that you like LOTRO or that you think it has good quality.
But given what you said were your reasons for leaving, they just seemed a bit "reason light" to my way of thinking.
As far as the lfg tools, is it Turbine's fault that people don't use these? I have used them though I will be honest and say I've never gotten a group with them. But when I was needing a group for something I simply used the tools at hand. Sure, people don't use them becuase they are more used to going to the LFF chat area and shouting "looking for..."
I see that a lot. And quite frankly I don't see why this is bad in the short run. In the long run the given tools are good in that I can tag a quest and say "hey... I'm doing this if you are". Are you suggesting that it needs to be a bit more "in your face"?

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I would say points 2, 3, and 4 in my original post are relatively minor aggravations and so, admittedly, "light", as you say. But all three are handled much better in WoW, imo, so it *is* possible to handle these things better. If you have never had a hunter pet in WoW, I can only say the difference is extraordinary, and LotRO pets are a pretty major letdown, as are the mounts. (The mounts in LotRO look good, but you are less likely to get unhorsed in WoW).

The big thing is player population thinning/quest accessibility/group forming, three closely related issues. Improving the LFG tool is not necessarily "in your face", and I don't think my suggestion (see post above) is at all in your face. I just think it would be really handy and helpful.

As for your point about kins, I can concede that -- except that I have no interest in being in a kin. I enjoy PUGing, with all its ups and downs, and the point of the LFG tool is to make all group formation easier, which I think is a good thing -- and certainly does no harm to those who prefer to group only with their kinmates.

Papadam, thanks for your post. My suggestion for improving the LFG panel (made on the LotRO forums) was to add a panel to the LFG window that basically acted as a standing "LFF bulletin board", based on area. For example, a player could post, under "Evendim", "LFF Tomb of Elendil or Hewing the Wood".

The listing would show you the name, class, level, and current location (not necessarily in Evendim) of the player. The posting would expire after 15-20 minutes or until you found a group. Groups could also post under "Evendim": "4/6 LFM for Twisted Grove, need healer". Group posts would expire in 15-20 minutes or until the group was full. Something like that. To make things a bit simpler, I'd also allow "map stones" to serve as "summoning horns", so that if you did find a group for "Twisted Grove" (or a group found you) but you happened to be in Trollshaws at that moment, you could be summoned easily to close to the quest location by someone in the group.

Then, any player located anywhere could just look under "Evendim" to find questmates for quests in that area. I think this would make finding (and getting to) groups substantially less of a hassle. The book quests would be handled the same way: Look under Book 4, and you'd see posts such as "LFF for 4.6", "3/6 for 4.2, need dps.", etc.

In WoW, there was a major patch wherein Blizzard "de-elitized" many of its lower level areas and quests, added more graveyards (rez points), lowered the level required for getting a mount, etc. There was a great hue and cry from the WoW fanboys about how nothing should be changed--that this was "dumbing down" the game, but Blizzard was being shrewd. It was becoming increasingly difficult to find groups for lower-level content, so they basically improved (solo) accessibility for low- to mid-level toons. LotRO really needs to do something similar. WoW also (much better than LotRO) allows you to declare interest in a few dungeons in its LFG tool, which LotRO does not. As in LotRO, no one -- NO ONE -- searches for groups by quest, even though though WoW also has this (totally useless) option.

It is the grouping issue (and the population spreading/thinning) that I think is going to be a major challenge for LotRO to address in future patches and each addition of new content and new expansions. It would be shortsighted of Turbine not to make changes to address this problem.

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Bloodworth, my toons are mostly all in their 40s at the moment. It's a frustrating range, to be honest, with regard to finding groups to do ... just about anything.

Well, obviously. Sovrath, I am surmising that these other games will handle these issues better, as WoW handles them better already. As I stated originally, I like LotRO. I am just stating things in-game that I do not think are currently handled well and that I think will become bigger problems with time if not corrected.

Your solution to the LFG situation, using a quest, is flawed -- since people DO NOT USE THIS. No one uses the LFG tool to search for a group based on a particular quest. An effective LFG system should be designed to follow the same principles as the LFG chat -- which is the primary means of group-finding in LotRO. It's OK as is, but it needs to be made a lot better.

A level-based game such as LotRO is not going to age well if it doesn't do something to improve the experience of mid-level players. With each added expansion, the populations of servers will continue to thin. Long-time players with higher-level toons will focus on the new higher-level areas. New players will start out, but there will be a great thinning of the mid-range, something we are already starting to see.

This is the point I am making. Any level-based game that keeps adding expansions is going to have the same problems. WoW has made changes to adjust to this. LotRO needs to do so as well.

I will say it again: LotRO is better than WoW, I am not leaving this game (yet). These are not reasons for leaving now. My point is that if these issues are not addressed, however, LotRO will in all probability not hang onto its player base over the long term. It will certainly not keep me if these other games offer features like this where LotRO still does not.

I have been having a good time in LotRO; it is a very fun game. So, I am not knocking the game at all.

I started playing LotRO based on the 14-day trial and stayed.

While I am enjoying my time in this game immensely, I do not think I will remain in it long-term, however, as there are various things about LotRO that, imo, need fixing.

(1) LFG. First and foremost, the LFG system in LotRO is weak. Trying to find groups for group quests is frustrating, and I think this situation is going to continue to worsen with each additional expansion. With so many players in Moria now, finding groups for (especially!) the epic quests and instances is increasingly difficult for my 40-50 range characters. WoW made certain concessions and accommodations to address the "thinning, mid-level player population issue"; I hope Turbine does something similar.

There ought, for example, to be a way to post yourself as interested in a general area (e.g., Dol Dinen") or instance (e.g., "Fornost") in the LFG tool, but there currently is not. You should also be able to monitor and access the LFG channels for OTHER areas and instances (not just where you happen to be physically). I should, for example, be able to monitor the Lone Lands or Bree LFFs even while I am in North Downs. You currently cannot do this.

(2) Travel. I think there ought to be more swift travel options available, more summoning horns scattered about. Getting around in this game is too much of a tedious chore. Worse, travel considerations prove an impediment to grouping. ("Well, I'd join that group but they're too far away.")

(3) Pets. The pets in this game make me really miss my pet from WoW. Their pathing is terrible. I gave up on the herald for my captain (using standards instead) and my LM only uses the raven (which seems to get "stuck" less frequently than the other critters). Pet AI in LotRO is pretty lame.

(4) Mounts. There ought to be swifter mount options for higher-level characters. I also find it really annoying that you can be knocked off your mount by some low-level beastie (a bat, for example). Geeze. The system WoW uses makes a lot more sense.

As I said at the outset: I like LotRO. It is a good game and (in most ways) better than WoW, but it has its frustrations for me: most of all the group-finding tools and the more general issue about making group content accessible -- somehow -- for thinly populated levels and areas. I think a better LFG system, better travel options, more summoning horns in order to get people together more easily would help this game a lot.

As it is, however, I will probably abandon LotRO once SWTOR, STO, GW2, or something (anything) else designed a bit better comes out. I can hardly imagine LotRO surviving till the "Mordor Expansion" if it does not start to make dramatic improvements in its overall design. I think competing games such as SWTOR and STO are likely, once they are released, to devastate LotRO populations even further. Just my 2¢ here. :)