There's a lot of history behind the whole demonization of D&D (heh) which is not really mentioned in the article, and it's a subject which probably rubs more than a few gamers the wrong way who grew up having to deal with attitudes like this. 

About the only thing NWN can be accused of (unfortunately) is being a less than stellar successor to the Neverwinter title, and a subpar D&D experience compared to...say...DDO, or the original Neverwinter 1 and 2.

Pat, on the other hand, can readily be accused of leveraging fear and social contempt of others for his own profit. [mod edit]

Originally posted by Vesavius

As a side quesion, and I ask the same of TESO fans, would you be as excited for this game if it didn't connect it's brand to one you already love? Would the game itself hold up to what you are looking for? Would you care about it anymore then a random PWE game? Try to answer honestly if you can...

I bought into and have quite enjoyed Rift, which had no tie-in to anything prior to its own existence other than the broader scope of "fantasy gaming," so yes, its possible to be excited for a game without a distinct IP attached.

To answer the question about NW specifically: I think I would be interested in it regardless of the D&D bit because of the prospect for dynamic user-generated scenarios which has not been done (to the best of my experience) in a fantasy MMO before; I also like the ARPG element they have been advertising. So yeah, the game does indeed seem to be offering (according to all I've read) some interesting features that make it interesting regardless of the IP.

What I don't like, unfortunately is the $200 early adopter package they threw out there recently, which does not bode well for a game that can be played for reasonable money. Perfect World has, in my experience, been excellent and ruthless when it comes to gouging customers in its freemium models.

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by Omnifish

It's a license they bought to appeal to an established fanbase. 

Much like how rappers make crap actors, studios will still give it a go because they bring along a fanbase who'll go see the film just to see their favorite rapper in it.

So regardless of how the game is people will still try it out based on the name association.  That's how branding works ;)

 

Well, Queen Latifah is not a crap actor by a long stretch, but I understand your point, and I get how branding works...

We all know branding can be ethical and honest or it can be cynical and dishonest, designed to fool people.

Which is this?

We won't really know until it arrives, of course. If I had to guess based on what I'd seen so far, however, I'd say its an earnest effort to encapsulate the game's look, feel and lore but the mechanics will probably pay lip service to D&D 4th edition...and no one will be bothered, because that edition is already being buried in an early grave, unfortunately. 

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by SpectralHunter

My snarky remark is they have the right because they have the license. 

But like some have said, Neverwinter is just a city in FR. It doesn't have to be related to Bioware or the NWN series.

 

Obvious snarky remarks aside...

Yes, this game has a FR setting, but it wears a D&D badge, with D&D being the mechanics behind the FR lore.

To draw a connection with D&D, one would have to assume it actually has something to do with that system?

 

Also, on the Black Isle NWN... you don't think it's disengenious that Cryptic are allowing it (promoting it?) to be the direct successor to that much loved game? It obviously has nothing to do with NWN past some lore and labels.

You...haven't played a lot of tabletop D&D have you? D&D is, as IPs go, rather larger and more encompassing than just Black Isle and FR. As both properties go (not to mention prior Neverwinter titles) everything I've seen so far screams D&D...at least, D&D as it's been portrayed in various medai for the last fifteen years. 

D&D has had four primary editions and two variant editions (the original "zero edition" and Basic/Expert). It's got tons of spin-offs, the core game is covered by more than a dozen published worlds (FR being only the more popular of them), and of course it's 3rd edition of the game...the one that started D20....spun off many variants, some of which even influenced games like KOTOR 1 and 2. 

Anyway, if we decided that for NW to look/feel like D&D it must emulate the mechanics, then we must ask, "which edition, and to what extent?" because there is no single representation of D&D that is easily defined by its mechanics outside of some key "sacred cow" concepts like armor class, hit points, alignment and such. This gets even crazier when you consider that as of 2013 the 4th edition is effectively "dead" and they are developing a 5th edition for a 2014 release. In fact right now they are reprinting all the older editions, putting many in print again for the first time in decades.

If D&D is defined by its settings, then FR is a good choice, but personally I wish other worlds like Greyhawk, Eberron, Ravenloft or Dark Sun didn't get ignored all the time. Hell, a new Planescape game would be fantastic. But D&D at its core is not actually about any of these settings, but the one that the players and DM create, so even an "official" setting isn't exemplary of D&D necessarily (for example, the movies...for better or worse...do not use an established setting).

D&D does have a lot of concepts that, if present, make it feel more like D&D. Alignment...drow....beholders....the planar wheel....Orcus...stuff like that is ubiquitous in D&D.  

Originally posted by Siveria

All I can honestly sday is "meh" same crap in just a new area that your already doing, MMORP expansions need to start offering more than just the same shit in a new area, have some actually unique stuff for once, should take notes from stuff like the oblivion expansions/dlc and the skyrim dlc that add entirely new features that change the game up.

I also agree with rem, mmo's have been going down the shitter fast since wow came out, I haven't seen 1 mmo in years that actually offered some diffrent gameplay, that wasn't f2p. Swtor, TSw same shti diffrent wrapper all over again, same for guild wars 2, its still the same boring quest grind/hub bullshit with the same boring mechanics copied from wow. These mmodevs wonder why their sub numbers drop like a rock thrown in the ocean after the first month or 2 of subbing, its because none of them ever offer anything worth sticking around for. I played rift and quit early because it just felt like yet another wow clone to me, with very little to set it apart gameplay wise. Add in the fact you can hit cap in most sub mmo's in 2-4 days means people blow thru the content, Hell over half of a new mmo's pop quits before the free month is even over because of how fast you hit cap, and then the lack of stuff to do once there. They need to start designing mmo's so it takes 1.5-2 weeks even for a hardcore player to hti cap, and 1.5-2 months for a casual. FF11 was like this and still sort of is if you don't abuse abbysea, and its still doing fine.. Then again FF11 is like the only unique mmorpg thats pay2play on the market right now. Its the only one that hasn't caved into being turned into a generic wow clone.

2-4 days? I am impressed. I'm creeping up on 100 hours on my main in Rift and still just hitting level 40. Over a few months' play. But then, I need to eat, sleep and obey the laws of spacetime so yeah, 2-4 days was never an option for me.

This is the first time I've seen anyone compare FFXI favorably as a positive direction for MMOs. What did you think of FFXIV, if you tried it? Just curious.

I haven't even been properly ripped off by Funcom yet and I noticed early on that they seem to have some suspicious billing processes. I have refused to set up a new account by card with them or buy points...am waiting for TSW to get time cards, for example, refuse to sub otherwise. I also don't like the extra charges they tack on for being international (that may be my bank, but it also means Funcom has no payment management in the states, which tells me right off that customer service for problems is going to be painful). So yeah, too many red flags with them to make it worth the risk.

Originally posted by Vapors

Originally posted by jusomdude
I can't stand the combat system. I might play it if it was better.

If it was any better?:D Its unique hard and dynamic, I never understood people hating it. xD

I think it's because the way combo chains works in AoC feels a lot like QTE (quick time vents) in other games. A lot of people are not dextrous enough to keep track of the attack chains. I forget offhand if AoC has macros, but it needs them if it doesn't.

Also, for a game with so many attack combos, it doesn't really give you an optimal hotbar area....I have learned to manage, but every time I leave for a few months and then come back, I have to go through the re-familiarization experience all over again.

Other than that, I do think that AoC's combat is more dynamic and interesting than most other MMOs out there, but it doesn't surprise me at all that many people are turned off of it. I can't help but notice that the way AoC's successor The Secret World works, it's carefully eschewed the clustered-buttons problem of AoC, and also is more intuitive when it comes to advertising combo chains (which it has, but it is so smooth that you don't even realize they're basically the same deal as in AoC).

Five minutes in the auction house usually cleans me out if I'm not careful (and I sell a lot on AH to make up for what I spend). Regular loot is okay, but there's a lot of rare stuff that is hard to find...it's always worth looking in the AH in case some useful gear pops up that will have a good synergy with your character.

I haven't even begun to mess with crafting (never been fond of crafting in general) but that might lead to a cash sink.

I spend a lot of platinum on henchmen, too, since I usually have limited time and like to get right into the action, can't wait for full groups with the schedule I have. 

Anyway, I never seem to have enough cash, unfortunately. Noting that your characters are level 5, I'll state only that as you get higher in level the costs of gear go up, dramatically sometimes. Some classes (like wizards) have higher maintenance costs, too....although trivial if you can keep up earnings. Also, higher level gear that is damaged requires a lot more cash to fix.

Originally posted by Hrimnir

 

 

Originally posted by tristanryan

Lots of news about Rift lately. From new fun stuff coming, to long awaited new pvp philosophy, even very nice looking player housing.

 

However, the reason everyone i know quit and when my friends and i discuss this game today we all have a common feeling of why this game just doesnt "hook" us?

 

Macros.

 

Hundreds of unique abilities that could very well make for a fun and diversified experience in PvP and PvE so hardcore players could actually show skill above others and its all just tarnished because of how you can literally combine so many skills into one key in this game. Its just... kinda pathetic.

Wish they would change that before anything else. (just my humble opinion)

I'm sorry but this is a total load of crap and you know it.  If macros were such a turn off all you had to do is ignore them and not use them.  Plenty of guys in my guild make the same claim and specifically play without macros so they can feel all l33t.

Trying to say the existence of macros is the reason for you not liking the game is like telling your girlfriend that the mole on the inside of her thigh is the reason you are no longer attracted to her.  Its a copout excuse.

I 100% guarantee you if Trion made a patch tommorow morning saying all macros have been disables, you wouldn't log on and play it for more than 2 or 3 days at best.

 

But....what if it was a mole the size of a silver dollar? With hair growing from it?

;)

But yeah, seriously, girping about macros is ridiculous. Ignore them, or embrace them....but I've played enough Rifts to say that if you think macros are the reason you're doing poorly, time to go look into a mirror to see the source of your problem.

Yeah I had a problem as well. I went for the "6 month" option figuring i could change it before my first month was up if it looked like it might not be worth that time (I wanted to lock the early subscriber discount in just in case) and when I realized I might not get more than another month or two out of Tera I went to change it and couldn't. So then I tried to cancel it and got the error message. Then I tried again later and got messages saying "the change will take place in a few minutes" but when I went to check the account never changed.

I paid through paypal, so that meant I should be showing a subscription arrangement....but when I went to paypal it showed no active or pending subscriptions. This had me wondering if the sub had actually cancelled. For contrast, when I paid for WoW via paypal it would immediately show my subscription listing.

Anyway, long story short my card was billed through paypal. I filed a customer service ticket with En Masse, no response. I filed a fraudulent charge complaint with Paypal, explaining that while I had validly provided data to En Masse they had not provided a means or properly cancelling my subscription. Also, apparently Digital River didn't submit my subscription to Paypal until the day they charged it. So Paypal just reversed the charge and refunded me the money. That was Sunday. Curiously, I've still got access to the game (wonder for how much longer).

I like Tera, but I think I'll wait until I see prepaid cards for this one; En Masse has (like Funcom and others before them) lost my trust.

Originally posted by ShardWarrior

Originally posted by apocoluster

  I do see it a a scam, but just a little one and being entirely blown out of proportion

If my memory is right, Prime Minister Chamberlain said something similar about Germany invading Poland in 1933.   "It was only a "little" invasion...  "  

 

Conjecture aside, complacency over the "little" things is what can lead to the whole MMO market getting polluted with junk like these lockboxes.    Just my 2 cents.

13 posts before Godwin's Law kicked in....is that a record?

(Also, I think you meant 1939)

But yeah, much as I enjoyed Champions Online, I've since abandoned Cryptic entirely. They had enough problems on their own, but just when they looked like they were starting to turn around (CO F2P was actually pretty decent for a bit), becoming part of Perfect World seems to have brought the evil out in droves.

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by Sybnal

First off, fuck censorshitp.  The only person on this planet capable of determining what kind of media I can or can't see is me. 

Second I don't think it's the fact that it's little girls running around smiling, it's scantily clad little girls running around smiling in G-Strings that did it.  If that's normal, in Korea, so be it, I'm not gonna judge. It's not even real, it's just a cartoon.  If I ever had my head so far up my ass to be offended by a video game, I just wouldn't play it. 

 

You sure about that? Do you have kids? U fine with porn all over the place??

Yep, this is the kind of argument that really sets a hard line between those without kids (single adults and teens) and actual parents (and for that matter, parents with daughters). I have a son, but before he was born and we didn't know the gender, I gave a lot of thought to what raising a girl would mean, and our society looks downright predatory toward women from that perspective.

Having to be responsible for someone, and realizing that something which might be okay for an adult to internalize is suddenly and readily accesible to a child, is a shocking slap in the face. When I became a parent I had to start thinking about this, about implementing parental controls, and about considering what entertainment would be "for mom and dad" vs. available to my child. Sexuality is inevitable in a child's life, but as I see it, let's try to stave off the introduction and immersion our society is so fond of pumping out in multimedia until the kid is actually ready....and even then, try to contextualize it so that we don't have a runaway society that is built on principles that allow old men to sexualize pre-teens.

Absolutely. I returned to Rift after trying it out last year, and have to say that the game has grown, gotten very stable, has a good population and is now my top dog MMO.

As a real casual player I'm actually finding Rift kind of challenging in a not-too-aggravating way. The OP may need to stick with non-MMOs for a while though, as I'm not entirely sure what sort of challenge he's looking for, but if its one where you have to die over and over again dozens of times before finally getting lucky or doing the exact sequence/actions just right, then most of today's MMO crop is not going to offer that. 

While this isn't terribly surprising to me, given Funcom's record, I do have some questions for the OP:

1. Do you understand that a Beta is a test phase and will likely be buggy? Are bugs the issue?

2. Does it seem like Funcom is using the Beta as a "publicity test" and not for bug testing? My guess at this phase is no, because otherwise it would be an open beta, right? A closed beta with an NDA means they are relying on you and others for private and professional feedback to correct issues with the game. As such, I think you're sort of missing the point of your role in this.

On the other hand, if you played the beta and came away feeling like the game is missing too much content, or is thematically problematic (i.e. the gameplay is too much of the same-old-same-old or what-not), in other words "issues that a closed beta isn't going to fix" then I could see where you might have reason to bail on this game. It's just hard to tell, given that way too many gamers these days treat betas like a way to demo a game for free, then come away with bad attitudes because they see error and failed to recognize their part in the process. And of course that attitude is propogated by marketing depts. for these publishers that treat open betas like free publicity.

Okay, I don't keep up with all the EU but I do try, so here's some bits worth mentioning to the OP:

1. Boba Fett wasn't some dude who stole the armor, he's a clone spanwed from one of the last Mandalorians (Jango Fett; see SW: Attack of the Clones) who decided to take after his father in profession.

2. The Mandlorians got the bounty hunter "rep" early on because they were a warrior-cult spawned to kill Jedi. As I recall, in the original Tales of the Jedi comics (which the whole KOTOR universe came from) the Mandalorians started as a marauding cult under the warlord...wait for it....Mandalore, the guy who gave his name to his order. I forget the details now, but I think Mandalore and his crew had it out for the Old Republic and fought a generation of Jedi in conjunction with the rising Sith; I'm not 100% sure when this stuff took place relative to SWTOR, I think it was about 40 years before the first KOTOR game, though.

3. Star Wars has a lot of iconic elements. SWTOR needs to expound on as many of those as possible so it can still "feel" like the Star Wars we know and love. Mandalorians are one of those things, as they have been established in the EU as an ancient warrior cult with a long tradition of a certain armor form and style.

4. It's a mainstay of space opera Sci Fi (of which Star Wars is a flag-bearer) to have entire alien civilizations based off of one crazy concept. It's lame, I know, but if you dispatched every single individual case of such in Star Wars (never mind Star Trek and other franchises) you would have the barest skeleton of a plot, and a dearth of characters. I say, just roll with it. If you want deeper, more meaningful SF, it's out there, waiting to be found in book stores.

Anyway, I obviously don't have much of an issue with the Mandalorians as presented...