Originally posted by donjn

I am currently playing the Link Realms beta right now. Its a great sandbox and it is free. I wonder how long the honeymoon will last. Currently my WOW subscription is good until late March, and my Ultima Online subscription has 14 more days...

Plus yesterday I took part in the Call to Arms free 10 days for Warhammer. So technically I am playing 4 MMOs right now. However, I am pretty sure I will let WoW and UO expire and maybe play some MLB 2k9 on the PC. Its been a while since some PC Baseball.

That and of course, some Link Realms.

But Warhammer has so much potential......

lol

I resubbed to WAR for the promotion too. I guess it's all in how you approach the game. Games aren't meant to be played hours at a time on a daily basis, week after week, month after month, and year after year. My only goal in WAR is to experience a good fight on a daily basis. Whether it lasts 15min or 5 hours, it doesn't matter to me. I'm not focused on leveling or on getting gear. I haven't killed one PvE mob in the 4 hours I've played so far and would prefer to keep it that way. I've played MMO's for a long time now, and once you kill one boar, you never feel as satisfied killing another. Mob AI in MMO's aren't very good, so I'm trying to stick to the PvP and play single player games for my PvE experience. Right now I'm playing F.E.A.R. 2, which has really good AI and the "thrill" experience, and I mix it up with an hour or two of WAR now and then.

It's like anything in life, you just need variety or to space things out a bit. If you're playing games to much, read a book or do something else for 1 hour after every play session. If it's not the amount of time you spend playing games, and it's just the amount of time you spend playing one type of game, mix it up with another type of game. Playing an MMO? Mix it up with a FPS or sports game like you're doing. Make the sports game your main game, and just log into WAR to participate in some good Open RvR. Who knows, you may gain a level that session and will get the added excitement of getting new abilities and new armor. I'm just saying, mix it up a bit. You like most of us are just tired of the same gameplay MMORPG's have to offer. We're tired of running the same types of quests, tired of the same bad AI, tired of the same healer, tank, dps mechanics, tired of the mind numbing grinding, and tired of the idiots that make all of that worse than it really is. Take a break from it, or mix it up with something completely opposite of it.

OP,

Sounds to me that the grind gets to ya. I think you're done with MMO's. You've experienced one to many grinds and it's time to take a break.

Maybe MMO's aren't for you. Maybe FPS's or action adventure games are more you're style. RPG's and MMO's have some pretty neat ideas, but grinding gets really boring.

Originally posted by Darkheart00

Originally posted by Salvatoris

Originally posted by Darkheart00

WAR has little to no PvE for starters crafting which is lacking. The games quest feel disjointed and Pve is very linear go from one warcamp to another. It is sad considering there are F2P MMOs that have more PvE content than this game and PQ is far too overused and it is shame no one bothers doing them after tier 1.

 

 

This is what a post by an obvious troll looks like.  You have clearly never played the game and are just reposting wholly inaccurate BULLSHIT you saw someone else post.  This game has thousands of quests.  far more than enough to get you from 1-40 without ever doing anything but quests if that is what you feel like doing.  I have never played an MMO with either more or better PvE than Warhammer Online.  That part about about going from warcamp to warcamp is asinine.  Anyone who has played the game knows that warcamps just have RvR quests, and that there are hundreds of towns full of quest givers all over the map.  You can visit these towns in any order, or skip any of them entirely.  You can do PvE in any of the three realms or your capital any time you feel like it. 

Every zone has 3-6 public quests, which you can also choose to do or skip... even though these are exactly the kind of cool, unique quests everyone likes to say we need more of... this guy says that public quests are "overused", but no one does them.  What the hell is that even supposed to mean?  FYI, you can mouse-over a public quest now and see how many people are working on it.  People do the public quests all the way up, not just in tier one.  Since they are marked on the map before you find them now, and you can see whether people are at them or not, they are being played a lot more heavily than at launch.

Bottom line, this guy is a liar or an absolute moron.  Everything he has to say about PvE in WAR is wrong... not just a differing opinion, but flat-out wrong.

 

I have been playing since CB, thousands of quests is maningless statement no one of the quests really carry on after from one camp to another they feel disjoined and never really grab my attention. As for warcamp i mean camp not warcamp :p as i said before in Beta there were lot of people doing PQs before exp nerf which made them pointless. In live most people simply ended up doing scens over and over again. Find me a server where people do PQs after tier 1 and i will surely and log in check it out i have not seen any such thing in Ironfist or Praag...

As for WAR having the best Pve how can you make that statement when there is little to no crafting, no much in terms of players doing instances or grouping for Pve. Stop with childish name calling fact remains the Pve is lacking one of reason why subscriber base has dwindled to these numbers.

I can't argue with the quests being boring, because I think quests in every MMO are boring, but I'd put them up there with WoTLK quality. Every single quest has you doing something semi important for the war effort, except it's only PvE so you don't actually change the world. Although the story acts like it advances when you go from one camp to the next. Each zone has their own problems and they are loosely tied to the previous zone, so if you're paying attention and reading the stories and quests, and your ToK, you shouldn't be making the comment you are about things feeling disjointed. Keep in mind that this isn't a single player game, so you won't get one direct story from lvl 1-40. No game has a direct story like that, unless you count LoTRO's Epic quests.

Anywho, the majority of players in my experience aren't really the questing types to begin with. They are the type that mixes some RvR with PQ's, which both are really all about killing stuff with other people. Crafting isn't PvE. Crafting is Crafting, and I think everyone agrees that it's lacking, but not many people care, since they're more into other things. It's a minigame for most and it would be one of those things we'd like to have eventually, but aren't sweating. I don't speak for the entire community, so if anything I say is different than what you all like, just say so. I'm just speaking from my experience in-game and on the forums. I haven't seen any instances, like WoW's, which I admit were fun, but there are dungeons with Elite mobs in them. They are harder than WoW's instances and require a good group of adventurers. But it really comes down to what you do in those dungeons that are important. You're just killing things with other people, period. WAR offers plenty to do if you want to kill things with other people, including RvR, Quests, PQ's, and Dungeons. Yeah, you don't have the OMG Loot factor in WAR to motivate you to do instances, but anyone can tell you this game isn't about loot, it's about the battles. Sure there's loot, it's an RPG after all, and sure people want the best loot, but it's not a loot grinding game. What game are you playing or comparing WAR to anyways. It sounds like WoW, but it could be another game, so I won't assume.

If you are talking about WoW, then I agree that WoW is a better game, but if I want to pvp for 5 min without waiting, I can do that in WAR. If I want to PvP for an hour uninterrupted, I can do that in WAR. If I want to PvP from lvl 1-40, I can do that in WAR. If I want to easily find a group to kill PvE stuff at all levels, I can do that in WAR. If all I cared about was having a fun soloing experience from 1-40, with the occasional group quest and instance, with phat loot, I'd play WoW. Fortunately, I just want to PvP and PvP when I want and as long as I want, without any pressure from freaks that exclude others for being a low level or wearing bad gear, or not being the right spec. In WAR, no one cares what level you are, even if you're level 1, you're welcome. People just want another warm body on the field. That's what Mythic does. They inspire camradre in it's playerbase and the playerbase sticks together.

Originally posted by Axxar

The Gamebryo engine should be fine. I think it's more a case of bugs in the programming, such as one of the early really big frame rate issues which was caused by code that was rendering character models multiple times, which would become a massive resource hog the bigger the fights were.

I just resubbed yesterday because of the re-enlistment promotion, so I got to experience performance first hand for 4 hours in some 50+ person battles. While everything is loading into the world, which takes longer than most games, you will stutter and have poorer performance, but after everything loaded up, I seen a huge increase in performance compared to how the game was in December.

Now since the game is taking a while to load up actual players who are doing random things, plus NPC's, plus objects and terrain, I've decided to cut them some slack. That's a lot to load up really. I'm talking loading up warcamps here, since that's where my character is perma parked. PvE areas load up just as fast as any other game.

Originally posted by DeadlyByDez

Ok I ge the whole PRE CU thing. Surely his game has everything for the star wars fan? PvP battles space flight, planet exploration mass pvp. I am downloading the trial now. Can someone please tell me why this game is not bigger than wow?

The "game" doesn't have anything, and it sure is hell isn't a simulation.

1. The GCW uses a rank decay system that was already proven in WoW to be a bad idea.

2. The economy suffers from hyper-inflation, so the new player won't be on a equal playing field for several months.

3. Leveling up is a snoozefest, because the Legacy quests weren't designed to even hide the fact that they were meant to be grindy.

5. The community (last time I played, 1 year ago) has devolved from a mature playerbase, to a "lol noob" pvp type playerbase.

Planet exploration is only fun when there's something interesting to see. That's subjective, but see for yourself. PvP is only fun when there is balance, which a new player won't have for quite a while. PvE is only fun when a person is challenged and the content is interesting. This game just doesn't have that. What it does have is a fun combat system with left over sandbox features from the Pre-NGE game (which are fun). If whatever they brought out in the last year is fun, I wouldn't know, since I haven't gave the game a shot since then.

I've thought about returning and creating a new character on Starsider, since that's where the RPers are, but I've went through the legacy quests once and I couldn't bear to go through it a second time (it's that terrible). That shouldn't stop you from trying it and hopefully having fun though.

Originally posted by aurick

I've always disagreed with the decision to only have captains and not have player bridge crews.  A big part of the magic of Star Trek has always been the interaction of the bridge crews.  The friendly teasing between Spock and McCoy.  Data's quest to become more human, along with the constant "will they or won't they" of the Riker/Troi relationship.  Worf coming over to DS9.  Paris and Kim with their ongoing friendship and strange fascination for Captain Proton.  It goes on and on.

What's more, Star Trek has always been about fighting as a last resort.  There has certainly been plenty of action, but that wasn't why the Enterprise was out there.  The fact that STO seems to be moving more and more toward a space and ground combat game makes me wonder whether the devs really "get" Star Trek at all.

Regarding the matter of ship interiors, the author of this article made a big goof.  How can you beam over to your opponent's ship to fight in their corridors if those corridors aren't going to exist until some nebulous point in time?

That said, as disappointed as I am to learn that ship interiors have been postponed, I have to be realistic.  If everyone is the captain of his ship, then what does the ship interior really become except the most elaborate player housing ever -- mostly consisting of generic and barren corridors with NPC's walking up and down them.  Yawn.

For my money, the jury is still very much out on this game and will remain so until after the release of Champions Online.  That game will show us whether Emmert and company have actually learned from CoX or not.  If yes, then there's hope for STO.  If not, then I'm going to be even more inclined to give STO a pass.  Which is a shame, since I've always loved Star Trek.

What's bad is that my heart and mind follow two different path's for STO. My mind agrees with Ozmodan, when he points out that in reality, requiring grouping wouldn't be a good idea. STO wouldn't be the first game that required you to have x,y,z before you went on a mission. What happens, a lot, is exactly what Ozmodan said would happen. You get a lot of people who (rightfully) put real life first, and end up screwing fellow STO players when something IRL comes up that ruins the mission. People aren't responsible enough to take care of business first and make sure they have time to dedicate to a game before logging on like MMORPG gamers used to. Instead, people don't take gaming seriously, so they take out the trash while in group, go afk for 20min to eat dinner, take the dogs for a walk, or the infamous "I gotta go" while you are in the middle of a mission.

My heart follows your idea, and that's player made crews, where each part is fun to play. I personally would love to play as a Security Officer (not sure on name. Red shirts in original Star Trek). I'd prefer the game to be more like the early Tomb Raiders, where most of the game involved exploration and problem solving, and a lot less combat. The thing about combat is that it's only fun when it gets your blood pumping, so turning combat into a routine, like in other MMO's, turns combat into a boring grind. I LOVE combat, but I don't ever want combat to be the center of the game. Make exploration the center of the game. Let action adventure games worry about combat being the center.

With that all said, there is a solution to the problem that my mind has found fault in the player crew dilemma and that's NPC hirelings. If Cryptic made it to where you can replace a player crew member with a NPC crew member anywhere in the galaxy, then it'd solve the problem of people going AFK and leaving the ship during a mission. Also, I don't think anyone is saying they want a SIMS Online on a Star Trek ship. I just think people want to experience the build up of anticipation while talking with fellow crew members, walking around the ship, while the ship is on the way to a mission. They want to experience the cool down that a person experiences after something exciting happens. This cool down would be experienced on the ship, while flying back to a space station or something with your fellow crew members. So you have the anticipation, the mission, and the cooldown, all happening on ship with your player crew. You experience the excitement of playing the game together, in person, not over a chat box.

This is all possible, but Cryptic is choosing to cater to the trigger happy teens of the genre. Ask any Trek fan what they loved the most about the Original series or any other series and I bet it won't be the combat. It'd be the exploration, the interaction between the crews, and solving whatever mystery the episode presented that day. So exploration, interaction, and problem solving. Doesn't sound like Captain, combat, and fast paced combat. The former sounds like Star Trek, the latter sounds like a kids game.

Thanks.

+1 for Vistas

Okay, thanks.

I haven't paid any attention to this game, because I was too busy trying out every other game on the market. I'm sick to my stomach of the current games out there and games following the same formual that are in the works. I'm really glad to see that Fallen Earth should be releasing early summer.

There's no purpose to this thread, I'm just dropping by to say hello and introduce myself to the Fallen Earth community on MMORPG.com.

Originally posted by GreenChaos

MMO's face many challenges that other games don't.

The biggest are: no ending, persistency, players playing at different paces.

Those are just a few I could list about one hundred.

Personally I think someone needs to rethink the MMORPG from the ground up. They are still just graphical MUDs, but MUDs have small communities and active GMs, making roleplay much more viable.

Lets face it MMOs suck. And the best way to make a great MMO is to not make a MMO. Make a great single player game, then slowly add multiplayer components until it becomes an MMO. That's what I would do.

You may be right. Lots of businesses out there have to rebuild their business processes (how they operate) from the ground up, and the result (including new information systems) is a higher profit and customer satisfaction.  What spurs this change? Competition. It'll probably be aspiring developers (still in school) that do this, but someone has to bite the bullet and revolutionize the genre if it's to get exciting again. Or at least evolve the genre at a faster pace, especially considering how long it takes to develop a MMO and even play it.

In reference to the differences between MMO's and RPG's, check out my really long above post. Sorry about the length, but I'm the type of person who is a deep thinker and can talk a lot.

Originally posted by astrob0y

Everything was so much more fun when we geeks had our games for ourself. Now its so causal so I have to cry everytime I play an Wii game.  And I do as well remember strange doings before wow, like an real life an such, but things wasnt so bad before that. That journey you made for some level grinding was maybe boring then but is wow+quest helper the way to go? I dont think so.  Just becuse its so much easier and attracts more pepole it dosent have to be the greatest thing made (just like mcdonalds, sorry had to do that).  

And Vanguard had alot of good ideas that was trashed and sadly became an clone with a diffrent skin.

But you are right when you wrote about the developers that worked hard to create virtual worlds to attract some type of pepole. I want them back so they can produce a time killer that attracts my geeky nerve. Like a steampunk fantasy mmo :)

I heard an older gentlemen (super geek, old school) at Gamestop (a customer) talking about how he's excited for the Firefly MMORPG to release in 2009. I haven't heard anything about a Firefly MMORPG, but if what he says is true, that may be exciting.

Originally posted by Kyleran

I think OP's angst can boiled down to a couple of simple things.

When MMO's started out the developers worked very hard to create virtual worlds, and it drew in a certain portion of the gaming community, (geeks if you will) but a large portion of consumers avoided them for the very same reason. (among others, including accessability)

Slowly but surely, Dev's realized if they made MMO's more like 'games' and not worlds, more players would be willing participate.

WOW was merely the finalist in a long line of games that kept trying to be more causal consumer friendly, appealing, and their large fanbase today shows that it must have worked.

But you can't out-wow WOW, and too many Devs since then keep trying to 'improve' on WOW when in fact, it really can't be if you stay true to their forumula, they have it nailed.

To really succeed, someone's going to have to go off the trail.  Not sure going retro is the right thing, one of big complaints against Vanguard was that it was too retro in areas (timesinks) that modern players dont like, such as long travel times, punative death penalties and corpse runs, and time consuming crafting.

I remember back in the day riding 20 minutes one way to my favorite leveling spot every day, and sometimes traveling even further to get to a decent RVR area.

We tolerated it back in the day, but now that we've tasted the forbidden fruit of easier gaming most don't want to go back.

 

I often have to remind people that MMORPG's are just games and should be approached the same way as you approach other games, within reason. That's why I feel the need to remind people what the term MMO-RPG means. MMO is what defines the genre; what makes it unique compared to another genre. RPG is just the sub-genre of the MMO. RPG could easily be replaced with RTS, FPS, Action Adventure and etc with their own varying degree of success. So to be clear, I'm concentrating on the MMORPG games, not the other sub genre's.

So, I approach the MMORPG genre the same way I would the RPG genre, with a couple exceptions of course to account for the uniqueness of the genre. As I've stated already, I look for good character custimization, and an interesting advancement system. That really is what makes the RPG genre unique in itself. Being able to play and communicate with others, and having your character saved in a persistent world for a FEE is what makes the MMO genre unique. So combine the two terms, and you have a game that allows you to create your own character look, customize his abilities through advancement, while being able to communicate and play with other people in a persistent world, if you pay monthly for the privelage.

Many people say you can't out-wow WoW. Well, that's like saying you can't out-WoW the Ultima series, the Final Fantasy series, the KoToR series, Mass Effect, Fable, Elder scroll's etc etc. The truth is that all of these games are in the same genre and offer similar gameplay, yet we still buy them without bitching or moaning and we enjoy them. So why can't the MMORPG genre have similar gameplay in every MMORPG, since RPG's have similar gameplay and are successful? I think the only valid argument is because of the subscription fee.

The subscription fee is what it all comes down to. In regular RPG's, people are willing to buy future releases, even though they are like past releases, because it's better than playing the old game over and over again. You get to experience a new world, maybe a slightly different take on the character creation and advancement system. But the games are pretty similar. The games evolve not so much by altering core gameplay features from previous titles, yet they evolve by creating better graphics, animations, and by introducing one or two new features that has never or has rarely been put in an RPG before. Normal RPG's could release every 3-6 months and possibly less and still be bought up, because people would rather try out these new games than play the old ones. So why are MMORPG's so different?

They are different, because the community chooses to approach the two genre's differently. You can pay for a subscription to a MMORPG until the next one releases, but people choose not to. It's not really because the new games are a copy of the old games, because people prefer to play through new stories and play new characters rather than stick with old characters or replay content. It could be the friends you make in that older game your playing that's keeping you there. That's a possibility. Another possibility is that the new games are actually subpar or doesn't evolve the genre forward, the way single player RPG's tend to do.

So I don't think MMORPG's necessarily have to go off the beaten trail, because the history of other genre's show us that people will buy new games that aren't much different than an older game, to experience new content.

Regarding your last point, about introducing outdated game mechanics, I have to agree with you on that. If a company created a 2d single player RPG, it probably would fail. It's no different in the MMORPG genre when a game like Vanguard implements old MMORPG mechanics, such as death penalties and other time sinks. I don't think this is a bad thing either. The genre evolved from being a game only "no-lifes" can play, to a genre that any person can play instead of watching T.V. or whatever it is they do in the evenings, and actually achieve something meaningful. Making games more accessible doesn't mean they have to make them tedious though. Doing chores for NPC's that no hero in their right mind would ever do, doesn't constitute a great gameplay experience and that's what the genre has devolved to. So the genre is evolving in accessibility and graphics, but is devolving in other areas.

I'd like to take a moment to name of some positive improvements in the genre in the last few years. Some notable achievements and evolutions in the genre since WoW include world phasing (ie. LoTRO & GW); twitch combat (DDO); refined PvP system (WAR), refined arena pvp (GW); companion characters (GW). I'm sure you all can name quite a few more. I'm personally looking forward to SW:ToR for a MMORPG that has evolved into be more of a RPG than previous games. I do think it "may" hurt the MMO part of the genre, but the way the community has devolved into, that can't be a bad thing (for me).

Originally posted by Capn23

/ignore

 

/leave Regional

 

/kick [Insert Name]

 

beautiful additions to MMORPGs.

You're right, but let's look at the big picture here. Did you always need those features in this genre? Not from my experience. You needed them only when MMORPG's hit the mainstream. Don't forget that the need for those options shows how bad the community has gotten, which is one of my points in my OP.

I realize gaming is a hobby, and it's a hobby of mine. But have you ever wondered or really cared why our hobby carries such a bad name compared to others? Well, look at the majority of the topics on this website for some examples of why gamers aren't taken seriously. Look at how some hardcore gamers let the hobby effect their lives (people dying or not feeding their kids). Look at how silly people get in-game (e-peen waving, geeked out about system specs, turning a game into a job).

Yeah, it's about time for me to find another hobby, which sucks, because I really like to game. I plan to continue to game, but I'll approach things more warily now that I know it can ruin your life. A bit dramatic you're probably thinking to yourself, well I point to all the examples out there. If you're not spending hours out of your day gaming, you can surely see others who do. That's a life ruining behavior. People dying or not feeding their kids is a life ruining behavior. Losing ambition and drive due to game addiction is a life ruining behavior. You don't believe that people lose ambition and drive? Just ask around or maybe take a look at yourself. What could or would you be doing with your life if you weren't playing games so much? Becoming jaded and bitter towards others due to the amount of ignorance that's prevalent on gaming forums and the games themselves ruins your life, because you approach people more negatively than you might of if you didn't surround yourself by so many idiots on a daily basis. So at first glance, it sounds dramatic, but it's the reality of a gamer whose hobby takes over their life and the genre is full of those types.

Originally posted by astrob0y

A really well written post by you JK that i partly agree with.

My single tip for you is to try out Vanguard that has a really friendly and mature community, small populated games usually has that. There is alot of guilds with an common goal within the guild, for example exploring every single corner of the game with an large ship togheter, and thats something that Ive not seen in any mmo Ive ever played.

edit; and the genre is idd failing becuse of us players :)

Thanks for the recommendation, but I already tried and playe Vanguard on multiple occasions, most recently being last month.

The game does have a lot to offer for the explorer, but the community is extremely small and overly defensive of the game to where they snap on anyone that asks a question or comments on stability issues or bugs. The game also is quest centric, but to a lesser degree than other games. It has its fair share of menial labor quests, but grouping up and dungeon crawling is actually somewhat of a viable alternative. I love that they had several starting areas, many races, and many classes to try out. Vanguard was a great concept that was never really realized due to a poor release and slow development by its current developers.

Originally posted by Clippe

I agree with the OP's points too, but I doubt that the MMORPG genre will ever die out. I've played plenty of MMOs and plenty of games from other genres, and my best gaming memories are without a doubt from playing MMOs. Games like CS have their charm but there's nothing like playing an open PvP game with a good guild, that's what gaming is all about for me. Sure, there are plenty of asses in MMOs, but I guess that's just the way of the internet, and if you don't know how to avoid them you might be better off just selling that computer :P

Was that last comment really necessary?

The thing about MMORPG's is that they require communication. If you want to avoid asshats, you need to cut off that communication, which in result cuts off the good as well. So if you're the type that's active in the community, then you have to become inactive all of a sudden. Sure, the alternative is to use the /ignore feature, but you can only ignore so many people before the list fills up and I stand by my comment that the majority of people out there are not even worth talking to, which means the list fills up quick in any game that has a decently sized population. Another alternative is to join guilds, but no one should be forced into a guild for the sole purpose of avoiding the bad apples. Guilds are meant to be organized groups of people, with common goals and ideals. Those take a while to find, yet most guilds nowadays are just another chat channel. You're right in that the internet allows people to be ignorant, sexist, racist, and immature without consequences, but that doesn't nullify the knowledge that can be gained from the rest of the internet, so your last comment was rediculously stupid and unneeded. And no, typing :P doesn't give you the license to type whatever you want and think it'll just roll off a persons back. It also didn't escape my notice that you agreed with me, but your post reeked of the "adapt or get out" attitude that is prevelant in the current community. I've already went through the adaptation process, and now I'm waking up. I'm a 28 yr old man being dragged down by a bunch of no lifes and I've decided to voice my opinion in hopes that people will snap out of it.

I like the genre, and wish people will quit tearing themselves and each other apart. The genre can be much more if we banded together and were unified in our choices, but that's asking way to much from people who care little more than gaming. I know it won't happen, but imagine if MMO gamers did band together, canceled their accounts, and created a website that explained our terms and conditions of subscribing to another game. Developers would listen quick and our game would be here much sooner than later. But the developers know gamers will not follow another person and will remain divided in their dislike of the genre in its current form and probably look at us as sheep, who can be lead wherever they want us to go with pretty words and shiny loot. Well have fun, but I refuse to play another MMORPG unless it really offers something that grabs my attention. No more buying of every MMORPG that enters the market in hopes that it'll give me that feeling I lost long ago. That's not a hobby, that's an addiction.

Originally posted by Stormwave1

Unfortunately, I completely agree with all of your points. I'm not sure if it will mean the death of the genre, but it certainly needs something different before it dies off.

I've been playing MMORPGs since EQ1 first launched.

The first MMORPGs were for a more niche market, but when the larger companies realised the amount of money that could be made, lots followed suit. Resulting in much higher production games, which also means more of a financial risk. The answer to that was to attract the casual market, as it's much bigger, which is exactly what WoW did (and is still reaping the benefits of). This resulted in a huge watering down of many features though, like travelling, communicating, role-playing.

Most people play MMORPGs now just to get to the next level. There is no slow pace option anymore. I tend to walk around, explore, talk to people, help people out, etc, but this just results in me getting left behind, and being called a "n00b" etc. I do also hate the way every single quest, levelling possibilities, maps, skill sets are studied to death, and unless you follow an exact path you are "gimped". There is also no exploration, no hidden secrets that nobody else knows, absolutely nothing unique. It has also resulted in the genre becoming a lot easier, there is no real penatly for death in any MMORPG any more, meaning there is no tension when you get in trouble, just die and respawn. Everything is also handed to you, every quest has map points, so much information you never have to think, sometimes even shortcuts to get there to prevent the "tedious" task of enjoying the world.

I used to spend hours on EQ just sitting round talking, or walking from place to place for fun, playing games, or exploring. None of that exists anymore, it's just grind, grind, grind and when you get to the top level, moan that theres nothing to do.

EVE is a nice alternative to this generic formula, but I'm giving up on MMORPGs for now. Hopefully FML will be fun :)

Thank you for contributing to the discussion. For the others, who reply after this, I won't get to thank you all personally, but if you did contribute to the discussion, I thank you too.

I don't know the best way or even how to go about to say this, but the whole casual v. hardcore thing is what contributes to the downfall of the genre. Casual players didn't ruin the genre really, they just encouraged developers to make things more accessible in a shorter period of time. This isn't bad, it's just a different way to play a RPG, but it's still playing the RPG as RPG"s were designed to be played (IMO). No, I think it's the hardcore people who contributes the most to the genre's destruction. While casual players are happy to experience the game slowly and sniff the roses (so to speak), hardcore gamers complain about leveling being too slow, class balance, PvP problems, raiding problems, not enough content and etc, even though they fail to realize that their playstyle is unhealthy and if developers catered to them, the developers would be enablers. The hardcore players are the ones who seek out every advantage to the point of counting every percentage of a stat to find out the best way to play a character. They're the ones who find out the fastest way to level from 1 to whatever. They're the ones who post guides on how to do this, which makes it common knowledge, which leads to the unwritten requirement to follow these methods or be gimped. So yes, it was casual players who complained about travel times and grinding that made developers add teleporters, faster travel options, chores/tasks (quests), and guided progression, but the hardcore players contributed equally with their own load of bullshit.

I'm not here to tell developers or gamers how to play, but I do ask that a genre remains what it was designed to be. Faster travel times or a guided progression doesn't hurt anyone, because you can still choose to take the horse instead of the faster methods, but there's no way around what hardcore players do to a game.

My personal opinion is that MMORPG's should have stayed more like virtual simulations of a world, rather than a single player RPG, but even an online RPG that is as good as an offline RPG is evolution, even if it isn't down the path I'd of rather the genre take.

I know it's a bold statement, and no, I don't have a crystal ball. Maybe the genre won't "technically" fail, but the genre is failing for me and probably for most. Here is why:

1. The gameplay is tedious and uninteresting. MMORPG's, by name, should be a massive multiplayer game that is a RPG at heart. RPG's are fun and interesting for their fans, because they get to create their own character (looks and abilities) and experience a world that of not their own. It differs from Action Adventure games, because instead of requiring you to play a prebuilt hero with an already determined skill path, you can create your own hero and choose your own skill path. Questing in an RPG are and have always been epic in nature. You weren't sent to do chores or tasks as a hero, nor would you want to, but the majority of MMORPG's provide you with chores and tasks and relable them as "quests." These quests have become a staple for MMORPG's and it's the sole and most viable way to "level up."  MMORPG's started out with gameplay that mimmicked that of a virtual world simulation, which made more sense for an online RPG genre. Now it's nothing more than a grindy single player game, with online capabilities.

2. The community sucks. The community used to be made up of mature people. At least it was in DAoC when I started playing MMORPG's in 2002. I'd go out on a limb and say that the genre itself only appealed to a certain cast of people, who naturally were more respectful and sociable than the current community in the genre. I'm not saying that old community doesn't still play, but finding people like that is not easy, and you're much more likely to run across the 133t lol pvp noob playerbase or the disrespectful kiddie or adult bunch. The community is practically tearing itself apart, not realizing we are camradre's in the same genre. Look at these boards as an example. People are tearing each other apart over the stupidist shit. This same sort of arguing and bickering goes on in-game. It's forcing more mature people, who love to group, to become solo players to avoid the asshats or leave the genre, which I'm seriously contemplating right now.

Further more, you have this divide where players are split between hardcore and casual; pve players and pvp players. Remember what RPG's are meant for and then ask yourself how could the "lol noob" pvp types have any interest in a RPG game? Just because a RPG has MMO attached to it, doesn't nullify the purpose of RPG"s. No one gets along, which I know is similar to real life, but problems are compounded in this genre, because you're faced with them on a daily basis, rather than every once in a while, like in real life. This makes for a bootcamp where normal people are climatized to being jaded, intollerant, and eventually they become asshats themselves.

3. The over analyzation of the genre is bad. People analyze everything. It's probably just the way we are wired. Developers and company analyze the best way to make money, which includes grinding, false advertisement, hype, and the list goes on. Players analyze the game and compare it to others and are able to rip the game apart before it even hits the shelves. It's not that the negatives aren't there, it's just that with a single player game, you wouldn't even bother worrying about it, because you'll likely only buy games in a genre you like and are excited about in the first place. These games cost more than MMORPG's and provide for less gameplay in one month than a MMORPG does, yet people spend their lives on forum boards analyzing a game to its death. No game will stand to this kind of analyzation, because nothing is perfect. Further more, once a game does release, people analyze the mechanics and figure out AND public the best way to spec, level up, and many other things to the point where if you don't follow these "proven" guides, you're shit out of luck. That turns a RPG, which is supposed to be a fun way to experience a new world, into a job of making sure you have x before y and so on. People shouldn't be so worried about that stuff and try to just have fun in a game. I have nothing against PvP and I enjoy it myself, but PvP is the main cause for this and could be said that it's the main reason for many of the things I've pointed out already. Without PvP, there isn't really a need to be cookie cutter. Without PvP, the "lol noob pvp" types go back to playing Counter Strike or some other FPS game. On the other hand, you have the raiders who have turned raiding into a job, and have analyzed things to the point where devs have to create raids hard enough where you actually need to maximize your character if you ever want to be able to complete that content. Raids existed before this happened and people would just gather up and do the raid. IT'd be fun, but now it's just another job.

Basically, the genre started out good, but instead of evolving into a genre that could provide a better way to experience another life or world, it evolved into an addictive money making machine that draws out the worst people the world has to offer.

Now have fun overanalyzing my post and tearing each other apart, because that's what you all have devolved to. You all, most of you all, are responsible for sucking the fun out of the genre.

Originally posted by Aethios

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi 

I hate to gloat, because I haven't been on the boards flaming the game or anything, but I have been reading them on occasion and most fanbois have been terrible, so I'm glad they're learning the hard way.

This is not to say the game won't launch, but it's like most of us sane people have been saying all along. The game isn't ready for release and isn't worth a persons money. 8 years of development and 5 years of Tesos saying the game is ready to release, and this is what you guys get in return for your blind fanboism.

 

It is rather sad and pathetic watching this whole thing unfold, but even more pathetic is the swarm of blathering idiots on their single- or double-digit-post-count accounts spamming "LOL EPIKK FAYL" over and over and over. There are retards on both sides and dumb things have been said in both directions. I think it's time to stop pointing fingers at who said what and start digging for the real truth, whatever it may be.

Personally, I'm staying as far away from this project as possible. The game may be the best game in the world but I can't buy it even if I wanted to, and that's enough to turn me away.

Not to mention it costs $40 dollars to buy, and it's only a download. You can't charge market price unless your product can compete with what the market offers. The market at least offers a box, which contains the CD"s and a game manual, which I personally like to use. Then they charge $15/mo, lol, which is the market price, yet their game is quite obviously not out of beta or even alpha status.

I guess I just don't get it. Killing people in-game isn't THAT fun to where you waste your money on a product all signs show is going to tank. I mean, there are other open pvp games out there. Hell, at the very least, there is plenty of FPS shooters out there that allow you to get the same PvP experience for free.

LMAO!

I hate to gloat, because I haven't been on the boards flaming the game or anything, but I have been reading them on occasion and most fanbois have been terrible, so I'm glad they're learning the hard way.

This is not to say the game won't launch, but it's like most of us sane people have been saying all along. The game isn't ready for release and isn't worth a persons money. 8 years of development and 5 years of Tesos saying the game is ready to release, and this is what you guys get in return for your blind fanboism.

LMAO!

Originally posted by JYCowboy

I'm a constant player of SWG.  I started at launch and have never dropped my account.  I clearly remeber Pre-NGE and have to say there were quite a few bugs back then.  The current dev team has done a incredible job of gutting old code and rebuilding what was there for smoother play.  Right after the NGE launch, the game was very much a mess in bugs and broken content.  After 3 years, the game is much fuller and functional. 

I have looked back and compared the current version of the game (which I am stressed to call the NGE now) to what we had Pre-CU.  There are good points for both camps and bad points for both as well.  After so much time, the game has much more to offer a player then most of the carbon copy attempts to gain WOW demographics out there.  If you miss Pre-CU so very much then follow others and try the SWG EMU.  Its very close to completion as I understand.  The plus side of the EMU is you can play that game and it should be bug free(r).

As a vet, one thing I wouldn't go back to is the 10 or 20 minute shuttle waits for the ITV and GPP.  I can even shuttle directly to my house with the personal Shuttle Becon (Vet Reward).

I miss the 32 different professions but the current trade off is better balanced and combat viable profession in the given level based combat scheme.  As I remember and have heard, it was near impossible for the different dev teams to unifiy combat and functions between the 32 and resulted in a "snowflake structure" of tech.  The EMU guys are tackling this issue with a smaller team that is sharing tech to unify that combat unlike SOE.

I don't miss the SWG culture totally geared towards "unlocking thier Jedi."  Pre-NGE, this issue totally dominated the player base and over shadowed the little GCW content there was.  Sure, I miss Phase 4 of the Village and all the different quests and fun stuff but the Heroic Instances have gone far to replace that content.

What I call for is a Re-re-review of SWG at now almost 4 years after the NGE launch.  It has many plus' left over from the "World Simulator" tech that are not avaible in any other games.  Have an un-biased member of this staff play and check out SWG.  Check it out by asking whats availble to the player base and what is bad or wrong with it.

Some here will accuse me of being a SWG fan or SOE fan and have no idea of a good game.  I have played other games but never get the fix that I get from Galaxies.  I have both been a supporter and critic of the game because I wanted to know "Why?".  I'm not a "Glass Half Full or Empty", I am trying to see the Glass given.

I believe its a fair point to Re-Review this game again.

I definitely think you're a level headed person, which is good on these forums. I understand where you are coming from and I cannot disagree with your negative points concerning the Pre-NGE version of the game. My only concerns, which you didn't respond to is over the quality of content offered to new players or old players that would reroll (w/ no credits), the economy, and the community. Those concerns would hopefully be addressed in a Re-re-review.

There's no denying that there is only one viable way to level up 1-80 and that the Legacy quests are poorly designed grinds, whereas quests in some more modern quest centric games give a lot better story behind why you're going to go kill this or that and helps by reducing the amount of travel time. In other words, devs are getting better at requiring you to travel less to complete a quest (back and forth travel) and are combining steps that feel more logical. In a sci-fi game with communicators, why do you need to travel back and forth (Naboo) a gazillion times when a quest NPC can just tell you the goal of why you are going there and you could just stay there and keep in contact through a communicator. It's very grindy and isn't much fun.

The economy is suffering from hyper inflation, with no way for a new player to compete/earn money. In other games with severe inflation, you can harvest or loot items that sell well in the player economy while you're leveling, which makes the inflation irrelevent. But in SWG, there isn't an auction house where new players can profit from things they get at early levels, nor would other players buy them if there was an auction house. The Bazzar only allows you to sell things up to 20k credits, which is nothing compared to the millions of credits you need to buy anything these days. The only real solution is to level up a crafting toon to earn money (which is easy money), but most people don't want to or like playing a crafting toon. How about new players that want to level up their space missions and etc. that can't advance, because their ship can't handle the new missions, yet they can't afford a better ship due to the hyper-inflation of the economy? I've asked this in SWG a year ago and the communities response was that I should wait until CL 80 to do that when I have more credits. Well why should I have to wait, when before the NGE I didn't have to? Players and SOE are supposed to be giving me reasons to want to play, not reasons to quit.

Lastly, the community was mostly the "lol noob" PvP types. Hardly a good welcoming committe for a new or returning player who once played the game with mature adults. A person coming to the game with friends to adventure with won't have this problem, but those coming to the game without friends will feel overwhelmed with the emphasis on the GCW and the community that it attracts. Maybe it's because the PvE content has been trivialized and the only challenging thing to do is to PvP, but I admit to not playing since they implemented Heroic dungeons.

My question to you, since you're a level headed player who might be able to offer some objective input is this: What is there that could possibly entice a vet player to return, assuming that vet player doesn't mind levels and classes that the NGE brought with it? I'm not talking "well, at CL 80 you can do this..." because there needs to be meaningful and fun things to do at all levels, just like there is in the most competitive MMORPG's on the market.