Originally posted by doodphace

Originally posted by Reskaillev

Originally posted by doodphace

Really? Name me one MMO release in the last 8 years that launched with rated PVP Battlegrounds, Rated world ranked PvP Arenas, numerious high quality raid tiers having 3 levels of difficulty each, LFR Service, LFG service, and the wealth of supported addons and combat logs, cross realm grouping and questing, cross realm raiding, achivements, guild leveling and perks et c etc etc. Lets not forget all of the industy sponsored PvPers and raiding guilds (Swifty, DREAM Paragon) that go with all of afromed mentioned things.

Now, dont list me any that launched with one or two of the things mentioned above, or added it after its initial month drop off.

Im am being very serious, becuase if there is another with everything mentioned above, i'll buy it right now.

Well it's called 'life', I'm sure you heard of it.

 

Can't name any mmo that has these features right now, but do you really want the same list of features in every mmo you play?

You are not eating the cake because there's a strawberry instead of a cherry sitting on top. You are stuck in the thing called 'being narrow minded' and think that every mmo which does not have your fixed list of features but instead has another featurelist is a VERY, VERY bad thing.

 

variation keeps things alive.

You literally went from saying every MMO copied WoW, to saying its a good thing other MMOs didn't copy WoW...

I'll take that as agreement that we have not seen a "WoW clone" yet.

They TRIED to copy WoW but failed miserable and therefore there's indeed no "WoW clone".

And it would be a good thing if MMOs didn't try to copy WoW...but in reality they do :(

But that wasn't my point.... Do you really want a game that copies all of these features perfectly or do you want some variation and some new exciting concepts getting introduced into MMOland?

Originally posted by doodphace

Really? Name me one MMO release in the last 8 years that launched with rated PVP Battlegrounds, Rated world ranked PvP Arenas, numerious high quality raid tiers having 3 levels of difficulty each, LFR Service, LFG service, and the wealth of supported addons and combat logs, cross realm grouping and questing, cross realm raiding, achivements, guild leveling and perks et c etc etc. Lets not forget all of the industy sponsored PvPers and raiding guilds (Swifty, DREAM Paragon) that go with all of afromed mentioned things.

Now, dont list me any that launched with one or two of the things mentioned above, or added it after its initial month drop off.

Im am being very serious, becuase if there is another with everything mentioned above, i'll buy it right now.

Well it's called 'life', I'm sure you heard of it. <-- JOKING

Can't name any mmo that has these features right now, but do you really want the same list of features in every mmo you play?

You are not eating the cake because there's a strawberry instead of a cherry sitting on top. You are stuck in the thing called 'being narrow minded' and think that every mmo which does not have your fixed list of features but instead has another featurelist is a VERY, VERY bad thing.

variation keeps things alive.

Originally posted by Kaniver

An interesting discussion that has so many variables it's entertaining itself.

 

Vanilla WOW is looked to as a base barometer in these discussion of subscription vs free to play as well it should be. There have been other sucessful subscription MMO models but we've yet to see any come even close to what Blizzard has managed. Perhaps it was a fluke as has been offered but I am not so sure. The timing was right no doubt, but what was it and what is it that keeps so many playing and yes paying.

Well Vanilla for me at least had a leveling curve that was just about perfect. Your progress was slow and steady and no I don't gobble content like a glutton. For me the pace was ............perfection. I was maybe 6 months in with rerolls and alts feeling my way through stopping to smell the fauna and enjoying each aspect as it opened to me. Level 40 for your first mount, meant something. You were fortunate if had accumulated enough gold to even afford your mount at 40, the tight economy was another key aspect that made things more worthwhile seeming.

In nearly every MMO since early WOW the leveling seems too fast paced,  LOTRO wasn't to bad but mostly leveling to end game came too quickly in subsequent games. I suppose it also pertains to how you personally consume content, but I think the mainstream that was there in Vanilla, enjoyed the moderate pacing. Of course after the game had been out for several years that pace chaged substantially.

Back to the point on subscription, would seem to me ~$15 was a BARGAIN for all the entertainment value received. One thing I do find rather curious is that any MMO that comes down the line seems to think that yup ~$15 is the going price. Why? Would seem that some would say be profitable at ~$10.

To come to a close I would compare whats said above with GW2's model, buy to play. Now I think it is a very well done game in many aspects, most aspects but even with no further fees I lost interest after maxing a warrior. It just doesn't have the atmosphere, soul that I found so enthralling in early WOW.

I can only wonder what Blizz and Sony have up there sleeves with Titan and EQNext.

Titan will be a succes regardless of its merits due to the WoW crowd, EQNext will not be a succes unless they spam enough advertisements.

Originally posted by Isturi

Every kid has mispent youth. i played quality MMO's when I was younger. But as for changing for the better name one game that stood up to WoW?

No mmo could stop the juggernaut that is called World of Warcraft in its golden years (prob somewhere in Vanilla or during BC) that is a given. It quickly outgrew any possible competition and created a gigantic userbase for its time. Idiotic dev teams tried to copy the succes of Wow but failed miserably due to just copy-pasting Wow and not going their own way.

Having an mmo and making it profitable was very easy when your population was 'only' above 100.000, you were happy then. 

Fast-forward to now:

Mmorpgs are million dollar (see SWTOR as a prime example) projects that need large userbases to survive due to stupid quota (set up by managers I personally hate).

A much more crowded market is present now and as a result much more competition. A competitive market is always good for consumers, but the companies don't make as much money when the demographic is split. Both these things result in a market where you either are VERY popular or CLOSE your doors. Low and small userbases are not acceptable even if the mmo would still make a profit to the company.  

Let's now discuss the anomaly called WoW: WoW was a product accompanied with a lot of advertisements and using a well established IP. Due to this IP and the advertisements it became a juggernaut in the market. Its succesfull blend of good design parameters was also a factor but a factor that did influence alot of mmo veterans.

That was then. Now WoW is a bloated and faulty version of its Vanilla version (according to most Vanilla players) and most of them want a vanilla client back. BUT the demographic that was attracted by the advertisements and not by good game design is still present and is fairly stable.

SO WHY ARE THESE PEOPLE STILL IN WOW? 

I've met a lot of these people and I'm quite certain that most of WoW's population consists of these idiots. I'm talking of course about the people that think the following: There are only two kinds of mmos on the market: WoW and a bunch of idiotic runescape-like knock-offs that aren't worth playing. For these 'causal' players this is easy to justify: These people never go to mmorpg.com to check on recent developments of the mmo, they only play WoW because they have no idea that any other mmo exists that is decent and might be even better than WoW in its current version. 

And trust me, I've met a lot of people that think in this kind of way. 

CONCLUSION: WoW became popular due to smart advertising and recognition in the minds of the common folks and p2p doesn't work anymore because of competivity and the big revenue that is necessary to make mmo's 'profitable'.

Anyone watching his money AND checking out this site will always find a f2p solution that is either much better than the p2p  mmo or at least as good. 

For the record: I played WoW in its first month of release but quickly realised that it was not for me, but my personal opinion is not really of importance here.

Originally posted by Isturi

I feel that it makes since that the reason why P2P does not work for today's gamers is for one reason only and it is all Blizz fault. Why?

Good question. Lets go back to vanilla WoW the game made you progress in a story line that was entertaining. It focus on enhancing our game play as we leveled up we were introduce to end game that keep us all comming back for years. End of story since we all here know the rest. That was what 8 or 9 years ago. Lets fast forwad to todays games.

Today:

Yes game graphics are nice and we have faster computer but that is not the issue. The issue lies with the DEVS of todays games and I also blame the hyper active kids that play MMO games today. For you see that todays games get made with DEVS thinking that only hyper active kids play MMO anymore and they are sadly wrong.

A Fluke:

Vanilla WoW was a fluke nothing more nothing less and it just so happend that it was a sub game and sub games were the norm back in the day. Why?

Good question. Because back in the day we did not have a ton of crap MMO games that had to keep up money wise. We had high quality gaming that gave us endless hours of entertainment. End of story.

If gamesr say that P2P is gone. If they are right then this will be sad for that would mean that high quality gaming would be gone also.

Oh yes I know I did say for one reason and it was Blizz fault. Well if you think about it all these other reasons can be summed up to being Blizz fault also. They help contribute to the down fall of MMO gaming with WoW.

We need a new leader in MMO gaming. I hope a gaming company can step up to the plate soon or it will be to late. Im sick and tired of talking about a game that was in its prime 8 or 9 years ago. I want to talk in a few years from now about Vanilla (insert game title here)

I think you might have a case of:

Please check the nearest medical institution for some dose of realism.

These days ALL mmos are made by cash-grabbing and villainous devs who only want to make their game into an object of suffering and despair. The only demographic they aim for are 12-year old spoiled kids that want instant goodies and this makes ALL recent mmos DUMB and STUPID!

OR IS IT?... (*drums*)

Maybe the sense of wonder and amazement that you had in your youth shriveled away like a raisin and the result is a nostalgic MrScrooge that is blind for the fact that games changed for the better?

Originally posted by Prepared

 because the non-trinity system doesn't work in a strategy-based raid encounter.  

Stopped reading after this

If WoW drains the idiot audience from my mmo, then I welcome WoW.

Obvious thread is obvious?

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say? 

Originally posted by wartyxwt
Tell you what, it'll be very interesting to see who makes the better CCG here, Notch (Scrolls/Minecraft) or Blizzard. I could get into this, card games *can* be very fun, online just means actually being able to find people to play with.

Majong or Activision....mmmmh....Really a hard choice -_-

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Reskaillev

Originally posted by Ridelynn

Here's my only advice:

Start.

It doesn't matter what your background is. It doesn't matter what tools you try to use. What matters is that you start doing ~something~.

I've seen games programmed by 10 year olds. I've seen games programmed by senior citizens. I've seen games programmed by housepainters.

I've seen games programmed in Basic. I've seen games programmed on the TI-85. I've seen games programmed into an Excel Spreadsheet.

The biggest hurdle isn't finding some programming language, or going to classes, or getting a degree, or anything else. The biggest hurdle is getting started, and then after that staying motivated long enough to overcome the inevitable obstacles to finish.

This is actually the biggest hurdle in any programming challenge: The fact that you need to stay motivated throughout the whole process.

The end result will be fantastic but the road towards this result is a lengthy one.

Altough this is true, as a SW developer (not gaming), I know that it is quite important to use the right tools for the right job. That's not saying it is not useful to just start getting your hands dirty, you should, but when you do start to build something worthwhile it is important to use the right technologies.

For example, using an engine without built in MMORPG network support could turn out to be a big misstake if you are trying to build an MMO.

Seems common sense to me that you choice an engine that suits your needs in the best way possible :) Also selecting all of the assets based on some very basic criteria (that are based on the type of game you want to develop) is an easy thing. 

There are some guys of coure...

And games are just software, so most of the processes are the same. Added functionalities are also introduced like story, playtesting, ....

But mostly game programming and writing the stories is seperated so yes, the process is quite the same. 

Btw: You are guy that has a team and years of experience. (You probably studied for software development as well) OP has no team and no experience. The time to get everything working for OP is thus phenomenal!

Originally posted by strangiato2112

Originally posted by Neanderthal

I was actually excited for a minute untill I read the part about buying card packs.  Then all the scam crap of cash shops came flooding up in my mind and my brief peak of excitement dropped out from under me and I fell back into my normal pit of cynicism.

Christ, I miss the days when we just paid a flat fee for our games and that was it.  None of this crap about competing to see who is willing to pay the most money for the most power.  I'd love to see a CCG online where the pve side of it is going around to collect cards from various monsters and the like.   But why do that when they can just put them in a cash shop and charge you money for each card.  And then make the old cards obsolete every few months by adding EXCITING, NEW, BETTER, MORE POWERFULL CARDS which you simply MUST HAVE (for a fee of course).

F that. 

New to the genre?

CCGs have always been rip-off, cash cows.  their very nature is to exploit their players with overpriced packs in search of powerful cards, and new editions every so often with even more powerful cards.  CCGs have always been for people willing to spend hundreds.

 

At least Blizzard is making the packs MUCH cheaper than standard.

Blizzard having cheaper prizes than other cashgrabbers? ...Well I'll be damned!

Originally posted by expresso
I must admit I was super dissapointed at the announcment at first, I've no real interest in CCG, but I have warmed to it a little now, it's not like Blizzard have stopped developing their AAA games or have taken resources away from their big budget titles.  And hey I was no all that in MMO before WoW and WC was my first real look into RTS so is this my way in CCG's?

no.

Originally posted by Ridelynn

Here's my only advice:

Start.

It doesn't matter what your background is. It doesn't matter what tools you try to use. What matters is that you start doing ~something~.

I've seen games programmed by 10 year olds. I've seen games programmed by senior citizens. I've seen games programmed by housepainters.

I've seen games programmed in Basic. I've seen games programmed on the TI-85. I've seen games programmed into an Excel Spreadsheet.

The biggest hurdle isn't finding some programming language, or going to classes, or getting a degree, or anything else. The biggest hurdle is getting started, and then after that staying motivated long enough to overcome the inevitable obstacles to finish.

This is actually the biggest hurdle in any programming challenge: The fact that you need to stay motivated throughout the whole process.

The end result will be fantastic but the road towards this result is a lengthy one.

Originally posted by Yamota

A lot of people in this thread are saying that making MMOs takes time, and I am sure this is right, but what exactly is it that takes so long time? 

Is it the amount of code, for the game logic, you need to produce? The 3D art assests?

If so, would you not be able to reduce the latter one by either buying 3D asserts or finding free ones? And using an engine, to reduce the physics engine stuff?

What specifically is it that takes so long time?

You can easily cut down on art assets if you make an mmo like Realm of The Mad God.

It's definitely the amount of code that you need to create that is annoying, also getting everything to work together is no easy feat... (clent-server connection, gui, basic gameplay and so on)

Using an engine is always an easy solution to circumvent some of these problems and is what most developers do. (There are almost no hardcoded games anymore because it would take too long)  Learning the engine can be difficult in some cases. Also the impression that most people seem to have is something akin to RPGmaker which is total bullshit. An engine in it's most basic form is just a bunch of classes/functions bundled together in a library from which you can only acces the interface files. (Unless the engine is free-source offcourse)

Even while using an engine, the time to get a game ready is still a really tiresome process. 

Originally posted by Tsumoro

OP here, 

 

was quite surprised to see people still offering advice and opinions on this. It is quite heart warming and I thank each and everyone of you.

Now, I did some research last night (if you wish to call it that) to which I put my feelers out there about what I wanted to do, and what step I wanted to reach first. Now, I think I am going to do (as some suggested) smaller projects to essentially 'gear' myself up to a position to which makes my ultimate dream much more realisitc. How long will this take? Who knows, and in honest the time aspect or the money aspect is not too much of a concern for me as this is a 'personal' project. Of courase, if I succeed I would hope people liked and played my game after all making sure your intended audience enjoys what you have created is part of the fun and satisfaction. 

So, basically I have downloaded two trials to RPGmaker and Gamemaker, I am going to dabble around in those for a little bit with the intent of getting the full programs at a later date. Who knows, if I make something for the android and iOS I might receive the funding I need to help greatly with my main game idea. We shall see!

I also picked up some Java for newbs infformation which I shall have as some bed side reading, although not planning to get too heavy into it yet as it will distract me too much to one of my other things I am doing which should hopefully end soon which is making my own DnD Campaign which I want to try and get published. So once I can set that down for a bit I can kick in the Java stuff and retain it. 

 

As to the person who mentioned to document everything, I would say that is also my intention. I am not like Sheldon from the Big Bang Theory with a powerful memory and I find access to a well organised series of documents about how I worked things out etc much more manageable system. 

 

Again, 

 

I thank you from the bottom of my heart x

yup always start small :)

Good luck with your dream!

Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by Tsumoro

What I really need to understand really, to get my 'foot' out the door is if I was to make this a website based game, (you played it from an in-web browser) what kinda coding language would I need to learn, what would be required in handling resources of allowing many individuals all interacting with each other like something such as pockie ninja or neopets. 

I will be essentially be working from the ground up, and although, a pipe dream per se, I would consider it to be a challenging hobby which continues until I either achieve... or die. Whatever comes first haha. 

Trying to make a browser-based game will make things harder on you.  For security reasons, there are a number of things that a browser-based program is not allowed to do, even though an ordinary standalone program would have no problem.  That's not to say that a browser-based game would be impossible; it's not, especially if you're going the 2D route.  (Modern 3D graphics, on the other hand, would be completely out of the question.)  But if you had the idea of making your game browser-based thinking that would be easier, then you shouldn't.

Provided that you pick a language that has the needed capabilities (e.g., trying to make an MMORPG in a language with no Internet capabilities isn't going to end well), it's less about the language you pick than what you do with it.

I would actually think that Java Applets would be perfect for this, no worry about cross platform compability and very easy to get a server up and running using java sockets.

This also keeps it limited to one language instead of the juggernaut mmos that we have now, that generally use more than one coding language to get their game running. 

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Reskaillev

Get a team...

 

You can't do this alone in any decent amount of time, you are NOT a one man army.

Get some intrested ppl with skills together and start working :)

 

Where to find these people? If you know this, please tell me ASAP :)

Though, if one has the talent, ability and time one "could" do it alone...

http://www.1up.com/news/indie-mmo-love

but this is the exception rather than the rule.

Fixed something there :)

Talent and ability mostly aren't the primary problem.

Originally posted by tman5
Well, you've come to the right place because these forums are absolutely bursting with knowledgable experts in all aspects of MMO concept, development, and operation.  You should have no trouble obtaining invaluable information from here

Get a team...

You can't do this alone in any decent amount of time, you are NOT a one man army.

Get some intrested ppl with skills together and start working :)

Where to find these people? If you know this, please tell me ASAP :)

You don't hear me whining bout free monthly updates :D

Hope this patch will be a bit bigger storywise cause the first two parts were okay, but could have been a lot more beefer!