Originally posted by SoMuchMass

To me the definition of "Pay-to-Win" has always been something in an MMO that let you gain an in-game advantage.  In almost all F2P/B2P MMOs you can get some of the best gear in the game with real life money, usually by converting real life money to game currency and buying epics.  For example, I can gear my character in GW2 or Neverwinter in full "epics" with real life money.

I keep hearing players and developers now say that if you can get this gear in game with game currency, it isn't "Pay-to-Win".  When did this become the definition become the norm?

If I can get the best gear in the game with real life money, and I can get it with in-game currency.  It is still "Pay-to-Win".  Because usually you can buy in-game currency with real life money.

Star Citizen and Chris Roberts recently took this approach.  In Star Citizen you can buy all the ships with real life money.  When people said it was "Pay-to-Win", RSI said it isn't "Pay-to-Win" because you can buy the ships in game.

So am I wrong?  What is the definition of "Pay-to-Win"?

"Pay to win" is the concept of the only way to have any chance to have good gear is to put money into the game. You may be able to get to the maximum level, but you won't get the highest level gear, the strongest weapons, the fastest mounts, some may even restrict your level, unless you pour some money into the game. the issue I can see with this, though, is they'll always come out with stronger, better items for you to by to get that edge. It may seem little at first, but then what started at 5-10 bucks a month can quickly become 30-40, maybe even more.

GW2 for example would not be considered pay to win. You can lvl up to 80 without any boosters fairly quickly if you have the time, the gear that you say you can get with real money...well...that's going through a few hoops as their gem shop doesn't sell gear. The only thing the gem shop sells as far as clothing is visuals. If you were to buy gear with real money, you'd have to by the gems with real money, then convert the gems to ingame currency. I believe Anet wants you to work to get your legendaries.

Can't say much about NW, however. I have dabled in it but it didn't catch my interest. They do seem to be more real money oriented, though, but they are completely free to play.

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by Livnthedream

How is that any different from grocery stores charging $.99 or putting high moving items at the back of the store or impulse buy items at the register? Its still entirely your own choice and you know full well what the ramifications of said choice are. Stop trying to blame others for your own irresponsibility. Man up.

 

No you don't.  The fact the game does not in any way disclose what the cost of progression is in F2P games, nor do they disclose if the players can even continue to progress down the line without paying for things.

And don't try to use "man up" as an argument, everyone is subject to addiction and gambling. You're not some special snowflake. 

For every 10 people who say they never spend a dime in a F2P game there are 9 liars.

 

All 'F2P' MMO's that have required purchases to progress that I have played have posted that you would need to make said purchases. It may not say it on the front page, mind you, but if you nose around their website, you will find it. One game that comes to mid having done so was DDO before it became 'truely free to play'. You had to buy ceiling limit tokens if you wanted to get the next five levels and since they had I believe 4 'tiers', you'd have had to buy three tokens. Now, they would drop, but it was an extremely rare drop. If it didn't drop, then that was money you'd have to pay. It was stated in their website that purchases may have to be made to progress, though. Companies mostly run like Sony where they will have a list on what's available to each group of people. your Free members, your Premium and Pay members and what have you. It just takes some, if not alot of investigating.

First I'd like to say I have yet to spend, or be conned into spending $1000's on a F2P game. I have spent money, but never tricked into it. When I play a F2P I go in knowing that some things won't be available to me as I am not paying for anything. After all, these companies do need to make money, otherwise, how can they run these severs and keep them maintained. Also, if they don't make any money, what incentive do they, or their programmers, have to make more? This leads me to my second point.

What multinational MMO does this OP own and run to think that they don't cost much? You have alot of staff: Customer service, maintenance, programmers, testers, quality control, people to come up with ideas, management. Then you have your normal bills: Electric, internet(Which by the way, they pay by how much bandwith they use, they don't get unlimited), costs of building rental, or taxes if they own their building, plus a whole lot of other expenses.

It amazes me of the ignorance people like the OP has that they think that all this is just magically done for pennies on the dollar. If they could run an MMO that didn't need any source of income and keep it going for lets say 6 months, it would suprise me.

I personally love the game.

Let's start from the beginning.

There's 5 races to begin with, and each race has all classes available. There's plenty of customizing to choose from to make your charecter feel more like you. You then choose your charecter background which will mold your personal story. Granted the stories will cross pathes and all end up in the same area, but playing different races/classes/background help break up monotony in the game.

When you start playing, if you decide you don't like this race's starting area, you can easily make it to another's if you prefur theirs. Now I haven't gotten very far as I've mostly played on my brother's account, but watching him play, I see him go from crafting, fractals(puzzle/mission thingies), WvW, and quite a few other things. To me, it looks like there's plenty to keep you busy when you max your level.

You had mentioned concern about casual playing. There's no rush. Your personal story will not interfere with your leveling so if you want to do all the missions in a zone before heading back to do your story, it's fine. Nothing will interupt the other things you're doing. And if you decide to take a week off, that's ok, too. There's no "leaving you behind" that I can see in this game. As far as geer, there is legendary weapons which seem hard to get from my understanding, but it's not going to cripple you not having them. Alot of what makes you you is your skills.

It's been a while for me. EQ2 with the sarnak expansion when it came out, but hopefully this coming month I'll be getting GW2 so I can play with my brothers.

I have to say B2P isn't 'too epensive' as you're getting almost all the benefits of a P2P MMO but not paying the monthly. In the long run you're saving alot of money. $60 for the first year for GW2 as apposed to $80 for WoW (appx going through walmart and getting all expansions) then 155.88 (2 180 day payments for lowered yearly cost) coming to 238.88 for the first year.

Now, please don't think I'm bashing wow. I could have used the monthly payment that would brought the number up higher. I have played WoW and enjoyed it, but as far as the two, I'd currently rather pay $60 and if I don't like it after a few months and decide not to play it, then I've paid less than getting 2 expansions and 2-3 months sub for WoW.

Diablo is an MMO in it's own reguards. Hundreds of people log into the main server. Though it may not be a graphical city or marketplace, it's still a place where people meet up and run off to do what ever. If it were the case that only games such as WoW and EQ and others of that nature that have open worlds hundreds of people can quest in at a time, games such as Dungeons and Dragons Online, LoL and the up coming Wrath Of Heroes would have to get removed as they have little areas where people meet up, but when it comes to questing, they form small parties (not nearly the 100+ as the OP stated) and they get their own quest area, finish it then head back to the 'graphical lobby' or what not. Another famous game would be GW. There's plenty MMOs out there that don't have the huge massive areas where people go play in, but they all have their gathering place, graphical or chatroom styled, where everyone can meet up.

I have found some glitches, but I will wait until release to make a final judgment. For some reason, chat doesn't seem to work. Even chatting with the NPCs aside from picking topics. And their help button doesn't work. Well, it hasn't for me atleast. But I will wait and see.

Well, I'm one that enjoys creating a charecter and making a name for myself in a vast world. Superhero MMOs included. If they keep this as a no customization, I can see myself avoiding it. As it stands, there will probably be about 10,000 wolverines and a handfull of various other super heros. And in essance, you won't be out making a name for yourself, but for the superhero you represent. As will every other person out there.

Reading over the features and seeing the pics, it does look like an off the shelf-pre packaged eye candy game that just follows all other korean MMOs. I guess time will tell, but I'm not crossing fingers or holding my breath.

Originally posted by Yamota

I looked at the screenshots and I must say I am shocked. At this year of age a gfx this bad cannot possibly get 7.5. Unless the game is targetted towards 7 year olds that is...

I'm not sure, but I guess I could be wrong, but last I knew, games were scored on more than just graphics. Usually included originality, ease of controls, learning curve, questing, features, and a bunch of other things. I can't see how a game can have a high score just because the graphics are cutting edge if the game itself was horrible. Same goes the other way. A game shouldn't have a low score just because it's done in cutesy graphics that have been around for the past 5 or so years. If it's a well put together game that's fun to play and over all well done, then I can see it getting a good score.