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All Posts by fivoroth

All Posts by fivoroth

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I ALWAYS prefer voice over text. Why? I am a human being, we loved being talked to rather than reading through rims of text.

I do appreciate that adds significantly to the production cost of a game but it' feels so much bettter. SWTOR and ESO were awesome in that respect. It is so much more immersive. Reading tons of texts is not cool and most importantly it strains your eyes. I have perfect 20/20 vision but reading text on a screen for long periods of time is NOT cool.

Slow combat and heavy zoning are probably the biggest cons most people give.

HEavy zoning is okay imo especially cause the loading screen don't take long.

The combat can feel very slow especially in the first 10-30 levels. Also the feel of the combat will also depend on which class you pick. Get a class like conjurer which is a healer and you will only get like 2-3 attack spells which will make the whole combat feel incredibly boring when soloing the first 10-30 levels.

Later on the combat becomes much more interesting. The global cooldown is still 2.5 seconds but you get some abilities which do no trigger the global cooldown but most importantly the dungeon fights become so engaging that you won't have time to think about the slower pace of the combat. You will be bombarded with tons of mechanics you need to pay atttention despite your role (tank,healer, dps etc.). In some of the later dungeons I barely get time to heal people and when I do get to cast heals I really need to think about what I should cast as I might not be able to cast another spell for 2-3 seconds or more depending on the mechnics which means that someone might end up dead rather quickly if I made the wrong choice.

Long story short, I think you should try it and give it a real go as the combat becomes VERY INTERESTING later on. Outside of these two main cons the game is amazing.

But the problem is most MMOs are boring. Maybe I just don't like the genre. Once you've played one MMO you have played them all. The actual gameplay is a watered down version of other genres. Horrible combat, boring quests/mob grinding, nonexistent choice when it comes to the story or character development.
Originally posted by LungingWolf
Originally posted by GeezerGamer                       

                                                                                                                                                                                           "From the beginning it's never been about 'players have changed.' Nothing's really changed except developer's expectations.

The initial MMORPGs were always intended for a small player base. 100K, 200K, 500K? These were big numbers 15 years ago. That's the only thing that changed. Developers want 10 times the player bases now.

If someone were to developer a game styled after the original MMORPGs, Assuming it was designed, coded and monetized properly, I would expect the same number of players. And most likely, they would remain loyal to the game for several years if not longer."

 

But why did the developers' expectations change? Greed of their overseers and providers, of course. But, also, player expectations, the complexity of the tasks which go with it, and the costs which go with it have also increased. So, even in eliminating the greed factor, there will still be a creep of expectations in order to cover increasing costs. Otherwise, the MMORPG in question will develop more slowly proportionally.

But, I do agree that developer attitudes like "one size fits all" are unnecessary and are borne from suspect motives.

What we need to modify is player expectations. Fun--I mean proper fun--can be had without top-of-the-line graphics, complete voice acting, and all of those other superficial bells and whistles. Such things become front and center issues only when general priorities are out of whack.

MMOs were not that fun pre-WoW. By reading these forums you would think that MMOs back then were the holy grail and everyone is super happy and there were shooting rainbows everywhere and all problems turned to pixie dust.

My only explanation is a severe stage of nostalgia and also for a lot of people their first MMO was one of those MMOs (most commonly EQ) and this i why they still have that first MMO love relationship with it.

EQ was so bad, how could people throw away their ENTIRE life playing that game. Did you guys spend 12-14 hours everyday grinding like maniacs to get 0 progress? Was that fun?

Originally posted by Quizzical
One problem with extremely long quest chains is that if just one quest in the chain is broken and uncompletable, you're completely stuck and can't do quests at all.

This can be a problem in any game. If the main quest in a singleplayer RPG is bugged and there's not much you as a player can do until the developer fixes it.

Lower number of quests should hopefully mean better QA over them. Also if one of the quests are bugged you can always carry doing one of the other two quest chains or do some of the other activities until the developer fixes it.

These freemium MMOs are mostly garbage and are almost identical. Exactly the same is happening on iOS. We get tons of freemium mobile games which are more like a shopping mall than a game. The recent south park episode "freemium is not free" prety accurately describes this. The focus has shifted from having a quality game to producing shitloads of games which target the 0.5-1% (the whales who would spend insane amount of money on the games).

You get what you pay for. This is true in a lot of other industries, and it's very true when it comes to games too.

Originally posted by YashaX

The new WoW expansion caught my eye because it looks like it has an emphasis on exploration, pvp, and the garrison system sounds neat. However, I started looking at some reviews and I noticed that it was getting really high scores, then I recalled that every expansion seemed to get high scores. For example ign gives cata a 9, mists an 8.7, and WoD a 9.

 

The details of the reviews are also somewhat head-scratching- for example the graphics are praised, or the expansion is called "good value", the quests are kill/fetch but that's "ok". Now personally I think WoW has an amazing art style, but graphically it is quite dated, expansions cost the price of a full sub based game and give only 5 or 10 new levels, nothing like the content you'll get in a new game like FF14, and I have seen reviewers absolutely butcher other mmos for having fetch/kill quests.

 

Its as if all the reviews are written by someone who loves WoW and are devoid of all critical thought. Meanwhile other newer mmos, get slammed and picked at from every conceivable angle. I remember Angry Joe whining about awful textures in ESO for example (and I saw a few other reviews that criticized the art/graphics), a game which graphically blows WoW out of the water.

 

Its all very strange. What do you think? What's with the seemingly skewed reviews? Why is WoW seemingly forgiven everything that other mmos are hammered for? What's with the plethora of non-critical reviews in general (not just for WoW, lately I have read several reviews that just don't seem to apply any critical thought)?

I played WoD and I would also rate it highly. It's very difficult for you to judge how accurate the reviews are as you haven't played it.

FOr the grahpics thing not everyone makes a claer cut distinction between engine graphics and world design/art style. WoW's new zones look amazing and are very pretty to look at. The attention to details is unlike what I see in most MMOs.

Good value? Compared to Call of Duty, it's like bargain bucket value. You can't compare an expansion's content to playing a brand new game. IF you have never played FFXIV and you pay like £10 for the game of course you will get a lot more content than if you bought an expansion for a game.

Quests in WoW are ok. In FFXIV any quests outside of the main storyline is complete snoozefest. WoW's quests are generally much better written. Again am not talking about FFXIV main storyline which is quite cool. BUt the side quests are incredibly dull.

Originally posted by N64314

So, I was going to go on a big rant about how every new age MMO is solo quest till max lvl then raid but I'm sure everyone has heard it before. I'll just ask point blank; are there any new age MMOs that resemble the older models? I'm talking about games like Everquest 1 and DAOC. I love those types of games because of the social aspect of it. I don't want to pay 15$ a month to play a single player game. I like camping a spawn for hours on end or dungeon crawling with a group of buddies but I am unable to find a newer MMO that fits that bill. Is that age of the MMO completely dead? Is there a game I may have overlooked? Just so someone doesn't mention a game I have already played here is a list.

Age of Conan: UnchainedAionDark Age of CamelotDarkfall: Unholy WarsEntropia UniverseEVE OnlineEverQuestEverQuest IIGuild Wars 2Lineage 2MU OnlineRiftTERA: RisingWorld of Warcraft

I played DAOC for about 3+ years and EvE online for 3+ years and enjoyed them a lot. Most of the others I played here and there for maybe 6 months or so.

Thanks for your time!

The old school model of aoe camping mobs was just as boring. So I don't see how that's the solution unless you like hardcore grinding like a robot in one place for hours.

I want to talk about how I would go about designing an MMO if I was given the choice.

The main flaw of current generation MMOs in my opinion is how bland the actual content is and how terrible the gameplay is. MMOs sacrifice quality to achieve quantity. This in my opinion is why they are so bad and inoriginal.

The first major change I would do is to how quests are handled. Now I don't want to go back to how MMOs like EQ handled levelling. I think that's an even worse solution to the questing craze we face now. In singleplayer games quests or missions are used to give meaning to your action, to provide you with context and to tell a good story. They are a lot more interactive but there is very few of them.

Why have 3000+ quests in an MMO when they are all the same copy pasted crap? Why not have say 200 quests in your entire game but they are much more interactive, engaging and you know...fun? I think it would be nice of quests flowed into one massive quest chain. What's the point of doing a quest which works in isolation and once you're done with it, it's over. I would go to such an extreme to say provide 3 massive quest chains only:

1. THe first question chain may focus on the world as a whole. THis is the "main" story which spans the entire levelling process and takes place across the world. You learn about the grand things that happen in the world and this can take your from level 1 to the maximum level. This can also be further expanded with future patches so it feels like the world's story is evolving. This quest chain can evolve at max level. Also at max level the focus may switch from singleplayer to requiring groups of people to complete the main storyline.

2. The second quest chain can be your class storyline. Read SWTOR here. However, these quests may involve heavy use of your class skills. They can reward you with most/the majority/some of your class skills.

3. Zone questline. SO each zone has a long quest chain which tells you the story of the zone you are in. There is only ONE of these per zone and they are mostly confined to the zone you are in.

So in total you would only have 3 quests at any time! They are all linked. As there would be a lot fewer of them, they should be made a lot more interactive, throw in voice overs, cut scenes, phased areas to deliver some proper singleplayer style experience.

Now there should be other ways to level up as well. Make AOE mob grinding viable for people who like this sort of stuff. Make it so crafting gives experience. Actually make it so that EVERYTHING you do can level you up.

I think at every point during your leveling experience you should be able to choose how you want to level up:

1. Do those epic quest chains to learn more about the world, the zone you are in or your class.

2. PVP

3. Dungeons, there should be at least 2 of these per level 5 range. Have a hardmode version of all of these at max level.

4. AOE Mob grinding

5. MAYBE have a bounty board (although I would probably not have these in an MMO) where people can be rewarded for mass grinding mobs or collecting random crap from the map. These should have no background. Just have something like kill 1000 zombies cause they want to eat us or collect 500 crab shells for no good reason. This is basically what the quests are like in MMOs at the moment.

6. Maybe have mini games - for example like some of GW2's activities.

7. Add all sorts of other way to level up. Can't think of anything else at the moment but I am sure there are tons of other ways to do this.

Also we don't need everything to be a massive numebr just for the sake of quantity. We don't need a billion quests, we dont need massive empty zones which just serve to waste our time. ALL MMOs can be reduced to only 100-200 hours of quality gameplay if all the crap is taken out.

WoW took out a lot of the insane time sinks of the MMOs before it and it became a hit. Whatever people say, you can't play games like EQ if you don't have an insane amount of time to kill. WoW got rid of a lot of that but why has no one made MMOs more focused on quality in the past 10 years? Why do we need 5k quests whih are all crap. Why not have only 200 of them but they are fun?

TLDR: Give us few quests which are the same quality as singleplayer games. THe current mass quest thing is just ridiculous. Mass mob grinding is also not the solution.

QUALITY OVER QUANTITY! We don't need MMOs to last 50000000000 hours only for the sake of wasting our time.

Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by Wizardry

I disagree that combat is simplistic in the tougher battles ,it is of fact anything but,SEVERAL runs were needed to figure them out.However on a whole combat is weak and the reason i lost interest.Well i also don't want to play another WOW game grinding gear progressions,that is a dumb reason to play any game.

Needing several runs to figure out a boss doesn't mean the combat is complex. It means they have decent boss mechanics. Though it does say something that today needing to do a boss fight more than once somehow means its difficult.

Well, to be honest all MMO combat systems are boring as hell. It's a button mashing exercise. True you can try and optimise your button mashing but it's still meh. In terms of boss mechanics and raids, raids today are ten times more complex than what was in the first batch of MMOs. For example, EQ raid mechanics were just laughable. Anyone doing them today would easily destroy those raids if it wasn't for the artificial gates put in place.

FFXIV relies too much on one shot mechanics in my opinion. Do this wrong, boom dead. I guess that's fine but a lot of the boss mechanics also assume that you would be expecting something to happen as sometimes you don't even have 1 sec to move out of those red zones so unless you're expectng it to happen, you will get hit.

Originally posted by ChipOreo

The combat is going to feel slow at lower levels because you only have 2-3 skills, some classes only have 1. At level 20-30 is when you start feeling the combat flow better because you'll gain access to more skills, then when you hit lv50, depending on the class you're playing; you won't feel the GCD much if even at all.

 

If you really like every aspect of the game but the combat, just stick with it until lv30. If you still don't like it, then unfortunately the game isn't for you.

This. The first time the combat started to pick up when I was fighting Titan. During that team fight, not once did I think, man I am so bored and I am waiting for stuff to cast. The first time I did it I was healing like crazy while trying to dodge his 1 hit death lolzorz mechanics.

The problem I guess is most people play till level 10-15 and then quit.

If those games were still around, no one would still play them. There is a reason those games got shut down.
Originally posted by Rhevin
To add, is there progression in COD? Like opening new guns and skills?

I think you will really like Destiny. It's a cool Halo style shooter which has some progression built in.

Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Rydeson
Original EQ was more role play then it was skill..

What role-play? The original EQ was camp/loot drama, and lots of chats about the real world, in between a little bit of combat.

/thread pretty much!

Originally posted by Enbysra
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by mastercotcot
Originally posted by Jemcrystal
What makes some one a role player?

For me, it's someone who pretends to be the character they are controlling while playing, rather than being a person at a computer.

They would make decisions in-game based on what the character would do, instead of what they would do if given the choice IRL.

You just ruled out a big majority of gamers. In fact, I have been gaming for decades, and i have yet to meet a role-player by your definition (not counting playing pnp RPG).

Yes, that does rule out the majority of "gamers"... That is just it though, not all "gamers" are, should be, can be "Roleplayers." And defining "roleplayer" is the subject as per the title of this thread. Defining "roleplayers" also by definition, tells quite well the issue with today's Massive Multiplayer Online ROLEPLAYING Games.

MMORPGs have been molded on the more actiony RPGs, you know the ones with tons of levels, gear progression etc. None of the MMORPGs strike me as close to being close to the D&D Games where the focus is a lot on story progression, player choices and roleplaying a specific type of character. Even Mass Effect is a lot more focused on story progression, player choices and roleplaying a specific type of character. In MMORPGs you don't get that.

But yeah that definition is pretty accurate.

Roleplayer is a person, who takes a role on a certain type of character. They write paragraphs to other roleplayer by saying things like "Lana was walking down the road..." A person who indulges in Roleplaying games that involve two or more people. popularized by the infamous Dungeons and dragons games.

It's all about attitude. In EQ there was a lot of downtime so you had to come up with stuff to kill the time!
Originally posted by Sulaa
Originally posted by fivoroth

Re-read the post you are quoting. I talked how this sort of elitism was popular around the time of Diablo and NWN and that a lot of RPG fans looked down upon those games as they were considered to be "mindless hack & slash" games. I did not share that view. To me they were all RPGs but different.

I loved BG2 for it's story but I only played through it a few times. Diablo and NWN I spent a lot of time playing. Those games to me had sick good replay value, something I didn't find with the more traditional RPGs.

So no I did not try to portray Diablo and NWN as inferior, which would be hilarious considering those are two of my most played games.


   I've read it carefully first time.   Hack&slash is not an negative description, so you may stop trying to paint it that way regardless of what you think was popular opinion of 'rpg players' 10 years ago. People used the word hack and slash to convey a negative meaning to the genre. And where the hell did you get the idea that I was trying to paint that picture. Jesus, you really need to stop implying things which I never meant.

    Hack&slash is a normal genre name not worse and not better than shooter, rpg, fighting game, arcade game, strategy or anything else. DIablo is an RPG despite what you might think.

    You say that Diablo and Baldur Gate are same genre of game, which I don't agree with. But they are. Diablo and Baldur's gate are both RPGs. Diablo and other hack&slash games (Path of Exile, Torchlight, Titan Quest, Grim Dawn and others)  are games that have diffrent gameplay concept, both use certain game elements than 'crpg' games rarely use and don't use certain elements that 'crpg' games use &use game elements in  diffrent proportions than 'crpg' games. Generally they are simply a diffrent game genre. THe fact that you used the "crpg" thing makes things a lot clearer. You are basically saying that Diablo and games like it are not RPGs. You are exactly one of those people I was referring to in my original post. You can fluff it up as much as you want but you are basically saying that Diablo is not an RPG which is exactly the general opinion shared at the time of those games that they were simply not RPGs.

    That is why it is more fun to repeat & replay Diablo endlessly than it is to do same thing with BG.  Because Diablo was specifically designed for repetition while BG was not.

It does not make Diablo better or worse, it simply makes it a diffrent genre of games.

 

I found SWTOR extremely boring. I am a huge KOTOR fan so I wanted to try out SWTOR for the story as everyone said the class story is fun. But from what I did experience the class story wasn't that good. But  I guess my main problem was I had to go through a ridiculous amount of side quests which were extremely generic, bland and made me want to kill myself. If I could only do story class quests, I think it would've been fun. But that simply wasn't possible even though I was subbed and was running around with xp boosts. There simply aren't enough story quests (1 per level? lol).

Flashpoints were boring as hell too  but not as bad as those generic quests. If they upped xp gain 5 times so I can just play class stories that would've been fun to play!

Originally posted by Sulaa
Originally posted by fivoroth

This sort of "elitism" was very popular too when computer RPGs were being scrutinised. People looked down upon games like Diablo and NWN and called them "hack and slash" as they were not true RPGs like Baldur's Gate Icenwind Dale.

Diablo is not worse than Baldur's Gate.   I don't know why you try to portrait it that way or why you try to portrait that hack&slash genre is inferior to an rpg.   

It is like saying that sport games are worse than simulators.  It does not make sense.

They are just diffrent.

 

Same as Half-Life 2 and Portal 2 are diffrent type and genres of games.  That don't make one of them better than the other.

Re-read the post you are quoting. I talked how this sort of elitism was popular around the time of Diablo and NWN and that a lot of RPG fans looked down upon those games as they were considered to be "mindless hack & slash" games. I did not share that view. To me they were all RPGs but different.

I loved BG2 for it's story but I only played through it a few times. Diablo and NWN I spent a lot of time playing. Those games to me had sick good replay value, something I didn't find with the more traditional RPGs.

So no I did not try to portray Diablo and NWN as inferior, which would be hilarious considering those are two of my most played games.

Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Enbysra

I happen to have loved Diablo 1 & 2 (never played Diablo 3 yet), and that series is not of the MMORPG genre. I am actually disappointed by the fact that Blizzard did not take the Diablo series in the MMORPG direction (probably one of the subconscious reasons I have not played Diablo 3), this is especially after they completely opened up that avenue at the end of Diablo 2.

And i am delighted that Blizz does not waste D3 and make it into a MMORPG. We just have different preferences.

I think the reason why BLizzard decided to make Warcraft the MMO was because of genre overlap. At the time they had Diablo (RPG), Warcraft (RTS) and Starcraft (RTS). So I guess Warcraft was teh best candidate. However, I would still love to see Warcraft 4. I don't see why this is not happening. I mean they can be kept separate with different storylines. I am sure a lot of people would kill for Warcraft 4 given how epic WC3 was :(

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