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All Posts by fivoroth

All Posts by fivoroth

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Originally posted by cmorris975
Originally posted by Avanah
Originally posted by Dauntis
Well, don't misunderstand me, I get the having no maps thing, I played EQ and vanilla WoW. But you could turn off the maps if you want the challenge, you don't have to inflict your desire for challenge on others to make things more difficult for yourself.

Beat me to it.

Yes, no one is forcing you to hit the M Key (usually the default for map).

So while others may like maps, they do not need to be taken out. It's far easier to NOT hit the M key for your immersion than to explain to those who DO like maps why they can't have it.


Because I want to be on an even playing field with all the other players, that's why.  A better solution is for you to play a different game that has maps if that is your thing.  That's pretty much all of them, so you won't have much trouble.  There's is no need to inflict your desire for maps on all of us by insisting that every game has them.

There are a billion different things people want in a game. Are we going to make a game with every single feature out there that some people desire?

I agree that not having a map has worked for quite a few games. No map would be fun at the beginning but it will get tedious quite quickly. Even in real life we use maps all the time. Have you tried going to a new country/city and not looking at a map at all. Have fun finding out where you need to go.

Originally posted by tixylix

What I really love as well is when quests were a new thing in MMOs, you had WoW which gave you a waypoint and it just made them a boring grind from 1 - 60.

You have clearly never played WoW from 1 to 60.  When I levelled up from 1 to 60 there were no waypoints whatsoever and you had to read the quests and figure out what you needed to do. Some of them were quite difficult to figure out.
Again you have NOT played WoW when it launched or during TBC.

Also when WoW launched, quests were a new thing. EQ2's questing was lacking. WoW pretty much was the first game to focus on questing as the main form of levelling and when it launched it was out of this world good. The immersion was insane. But you haven't played WoW then so how can you know right?

IF you are simulating real life combat then one hit = dead.

It needs be very visceral to replicate reality with all the real time blocking, dodging, flanking, parrying, deflecting and your sword or whatever weapon you are using has to hit in a precise spot as opposed to a massive hit box.

Originally posted by Wolfshead
Originally posted by fivoroth
Don't make me laugh. WoW became popular because it was an amazing game. Trust me all those millions people didn't flock to WoW because EQ was popular. There were tons of BLizzard fans who loved their games. Blizzard's fanbase at the time of WoW's launch was massive and EQ was insignificant in comparison. WoW achieved a number of players that was bigger than the entire MMO industry back in 2004.

WoW was fun and it was epic. And it was set in a universe which was a hundredfold more popular than the niche EQ. MOst gamers haven't even heard of EQ.

I know it's hard for EQ fanboys to swallow this, but WOW put this genre on the map.


Even so Blizzard frack it up for after 10 year the should have learn something but basically the are just do samething over and over again blizzard big misstake is that listen to wrong people on there community and if WoW is good why is that lost so many player those past year?

And dont tell men it is just for people have grow up and got other things to do. No fact is that when high max lvl you grind youself out of mind to get best gear in game and when next expansion hit the 1st green reward gear is alot better then everything start all over again. Blizzard should have stop after Lich king expansion and start do a new mmo WoW 2 or SC mmo instead of do Cata crap expansion.

Why BLizzard lost people? Well, the game is 10 years old. Nothing lasts forever. I don't know about you but the vast majority of people crave variety and new things. There is so much one game can do to keep your interest for 10 years. I was a huge WoW fan and played that game a lot when it came out. But I honestly can't think how blizzard could've kept me as a subscriber. I can't play the same thing forever. And a lot of people are the same.

What you should be asking yourself how the hell is that game so popular after 10 years?

Originally posted by alkarionlog


never heard SC1 or SC2 being the best strategy game, only they made a league so people could compete with both, age of empires get that tittle last I heard

While I am a huge AoE fan, I tend to disagree. It's not about having a league. SC1 didn't have leagues. SC is considered to be one of the best strategy games because of the skill required to play that game. It's often considered to be the most difficult RTS game. SC1 was revered as an esport in Korea. I am not saying that AOE is not a complex RTS and that it doesn't require skill but it pales in comparison to SC.

Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade
Originally posted by Distopia

Might want to read this short tweet OP.

Owned! O.O

I guess that pretty much means /thread. What more can we say!

Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade
Originally posted by Gravarg
Technically anything could be canon to TES lore.  They could add flying hovercars and laser guns to the game and it would be canon.  The Elder Scrolls can change the world of Nirn into anything...

Fortunately they're not a Korean company. :P

Which you can tell right away by the absence of scantily-clad, over-developed, teenage girls wearing high heels :P

You know what, I never understood what's with this :D Why do Asians need to have scantily dressed teenage girls in their games. It's creepy :P

Originally posted by DevilSeph
Originally posted by fivoroth

Are you a Blizzard fan? Blizzard north only made one of those games. Blizzard North did not make SC1, WC3, WoW.

SC2 is the best strategy game of all time. It's a true successor of SC1.

Read this, you should educate yourself before making posts like this.


  Yes , I was huge Blizzard fan.

SC2 is sc1 with better graphics and a very bad single player story, it's all about Raynor and kerrigan love story. Sc1 story was so good

Are you dismissing SC2 because of the story? Well, I guess people play games for different reasons but SC1 and SC2 were not praised as the best RTS games of all time because of their story. While I do agree that the story in SC1 was epic, I think SC2's single player campaign was very good.

However, ultimately SC 1 and 2 were all about the multplayer. And SC2 is a true successor to SC1. It's similar but at the same time it's quite different.

Originally posted by Loke666

Yeah, just how many of the Blizzard North crew do you think work at Activision Blizzard today?

The lead designer and his 2 top programmers from WC3 quit and stared Arenanet and he since started Undead labs as well.

As for Starcraft one of the guys still work at Blizzard while the other one gotten job as design director at Arenanet.

With Diablo one of them was already mentioned under WC3, a few works on Runic and Roper worked a while for Mythic then moved to Cryptic, not sure if hes still there.

Blizzard North is long gone and they ain't comming back. And since they don't exist they don't own us squat. But they do have split into several other companies and some of them makes MMOs.

Again BLizzard North made only one game - Diablo 2. Blizzard are unlikely to make another MMO but that's not because the closure of Blizzard North lol.

Also the reason Blizzard North were shut down because they were not doing a great job on Diablo 3 or at least not to the expected Blizzard standards.

Are you a Blizzard fan? Blizzard north only made one of those games. Blizzard North did not make SC1, WC3, WoW.

SC2 is the best strategy game of all time. It's a true successor of SC1.

Read this, you should educate yourself before making posts like this.

Originally posted by Tibernicuspa

The past 10 years of development in WoW shows that they have no idea how to make an MMO. They just designed a simple version of EQ, which was already popular, and advertised the shit out of it.


That's all Blizzard has ever done well, really. Rehash old ideas for a new market, and dumb it down for mass audiences.

Don't make me laugh. WoW became popular because it was an amazing game. Trust me all those millions people didn't flock to WoW because EQ was popular. There were tons of BLizzard fans who loved their games. Blizzard's fanbase at the time of WoW's launch was massive and EQ was insignificant in comparison. WoW achieved a number of players that was bigger than the entire MMO industry back in 2004.

WoW was fun and it was epic. And it was set in a universe which was a hundredfold more popular than the niche EQ. MOst gamers haven't even heard of EQ.

I know it's hard for EQ fanboys to swallow this, but WOW put this genre on the map.


Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Distopia

Downtime worked just fine, I don't even know what you mean by it didn't work. There was nothing inherently wrong with downtime in SWG. Many seemed to enjoy that time just as any other moment in the game.  A whole game-play style was catered to with it. Which many players happily took part in daily. Just because Devs moved away from such focus, doesn't mean there was something wrong with it outright in the act of moving on itself. It is more likely a matter of scope as well as sacrifice to offer something in it's place, like extra time devoted to presentation. 

You're right of course:

  • Downtime did work. Games like EQ and EVE have had ~500k subscribers each, and remained profitable.
  • But it was distinctly less successful.   Those were the best two downtime-heavy games, whereas TOR and WOW both have had over 1 million subscribers.

WoW is one of the KING's of downtime..  But then I guess that is a subjective view from one's personal viewpoint..  Such as.. Waiting for up to an HOUR in queue to start an instance run..  Looking for Raid is a total joke, and having raid lockouts is a HUGE downtime / time sink..  One raid per week??? Cooldown features???  

WoW might be one of the best casual friendly games from start to end game, but once at end game, Blizzard puts on the breaks/brakes and CONTROLS how much content a player can conume..  :)

Plus defining downtime is subjective as well..  Micromanaging one's character between combat is a gameplay feature.. No different then strategy games like Civ. by Sid Meier, or Starcraft series where workers have to collect resources.. It is clear that some only play for the pure hack and slash and everything else is a waste.. I think most people enjoy social interaction, as long as it's give the right playground that promotes it.. or at least not discouraging it..

But as for the OP's topic.. some like to play "go go go", and some don't.. It's a shame some have the view of "my way or the highway" attitude.. Walmart might be the largest store in the world, but that doesn't mean that Sears, Macy's and others are bad or wrong :)

PS.. walking from Sears to JC Penny's at the mall has downtime, cuz no way am I planning on running everywhere in life.. Downtime is good in my opinion, as long as it's not overdone.. (subjective).. lol   What was that saying when I was in the service.. OH..  "Hurry up and wait", which was so true.. 

WOW is not the king of downtime. When WoW came out everyone was shocked how little down time there was. In vanilla WoW which was considered to have the most downtime of all iterations of the game, you would kill a mob and maybe drink for 5-10 sec and you are back to fighting. Depending on your class, you might have absolutely no downtime (e.g. feral druids). In EQ the downtime was insane. 20 minutes staring at your spellbook jokes were made for a reason. WoW was like 90% action, 10% downtime. EQ was like 20-30% action, 70-80% downtime.

WoW was very hardcore at endgame during Vanilla and TBC. People with lifes didn't raid in Vanilla. TBC got a bit better with Kara but still the 25 man raiding was still pretty hardcore. Then WOTLK/CATA made the endgame quite a bit more casual and now with MOP/WOD, WOW has the most accessible raiding from current MMOs on the market.

Wait time to find a group is not downtime. You can do something else when waiting for the queue to pop up. Also I have never experienced 1 hour queue when playing dps. Never! If you are a tank/healer, queues are instant so no wait time whatsoever. Do you know how much down time there was in EQ raiding? Do you?

Raid lockouts are also not downtime, it just means you can't repeat the same raid again this week. For most people who don't play 20-30+ hours a week that's not an issue. For hardcore players, there are mythic raids which will take you much longer than LFR.

There is a huge difference between downtime in games like EQ where you just WAIT and as you put it workers in starcraft collecting resoureces. In Starcraft you don't have a single minute of downtime when you are not active. Hell, you don't even have 10 sec where you are inactive. Right from the start you are bombarded with managing your economy, scouting and deciding what your strategy will be for the game. Rushes happen often and crazy aggressive play has to be dealt with right from the start. As soon as the game progresses past the very early stage (the one you describe as workers collecting resources) you have to keep track of a billion things which are broadly categorised as macro and micro management and decision making. Basically your comparison to games like SC is ridiculous as those games have no downtime. You are constantly doing something. Whereas in EQ there is no reason behind the downtime other than slow down your progress and make you play longer so you pay the sub. The upside was that people socialised as it was so mindnumbingly boring to have to wait not doing anything.

Originally posted by fivoroth

It seems that you are convinced that questing is the only way and that you can only grind mobs in old games like EQ. 

OMFG Dude.. this thread is about "camping" alternative to quest hubs..  Grinding is a totally different subject..  (major facepalm
Sorry, you are right, camping in one place is so much different. You can do that too, you can sit in one spot at cordinates x and kill mobs there until you brain melts from the repetition of it all.
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Arazale

Last time i'm posting to you in this thread. You do not need a twinked alt to grind mobs in WoW or any of the other games i listed. Some of the fastest levelers(and i'm talking when expansions first drop, so there's no concept of "twinked" when everyone is pretty much on same starting field) in WoW grind mobs, they do not do quests en masse. They pick and choose their quests if they bother to do them at all. Generally if they even bother to do a quest(with knowledge from PTR) they would only do the ones that give a weapon and even that isn't necessary.

Quests have far to much downtime when you're running from the quest hub to the area where the mobs actually are. Not to mention the quests that require you to right click 10-15 hidden baubles spread out which don't give any exp at all. Same with vehicle quests. Same with go 100 miles here and talk to this npc for 1000 exp at level 90 quests.

Grinding mobs is a constant stream of exp only pausing when you need to move on to a new area which if you do it right isn't ever really an issue due to the way mobs are placed in maps in mostly increasing level in a straight direction unless you need to go to a particular zone you prefer.

You never have to stop if you're not lolbad at the game as all classes have just about 0 downtime now.  Constantly fighting 3-4 mobs and aoeing them down at once always pulling more, basically playing it like an ARPG is WAY more exp than questing would give you. The fact that you seem to think you need quest gear to level just shows how little you even understand about WoW.

Grinding gets you a ton more gold than quests would give you. Gold you can use to buy whatever the fuck you want, like oh idk, gear every 20 or so levels at the lower range and every 10 at the upper range. You're joking if you really think you need constant gear upgrades lolol.

     WOW.. really?  What part of GIMPING don't you understand?  Seriously, no one said you can't forge through the levels just grinding mobs.. Classic example is first 15 levels in WoW.. Average group of players that IGNORE all quest and only grind mobs as you recommend.. STAND NO CHANCE IN HELL in entering and defeating boss mobs in Deadmines..   Same can said for end game as well..  NOT having quest reward gear will GIMP your end game ability unless you trick othes in letting you ride their coat tails..  Give us a break if you think you can enter end game dungeon grind wearing greens..

     NOW granted I left WoW and Rift years ago.. So I am talking about maybe a time when CAREBEARS didn't own the community  and everything is handed to them..  I did catch wind that boss mobs now are so easy a strong fart from a taco bell meal can drop them.. /shrug..   Have a great day.. 

It seems that you are convinced that questing is the only way and that you can only grind mobs in old games like EQ. This is not true and you have been given plenty of explanation of why grinding mobs can be quicker or at least on par with questing. You have also admitted that you haven't played said games in years yet you are arguing with people who have recent experience with the game. Nowadays in wow a lot of people don't bother with quests and they powerlevel through playing dungeons. You don't need quest gear to beat dead mines. It might be slighly more difficult but who cares. Those levellimg dungeons have always been piss easy if you know what you are doing. And once you get on the dungeon train you will have better gear than people who purely quest and you will often level a lot faster especially if you are a tank or healer. Tank levellimg through dungeons is 10 times faster than questing in the dps spec of the class.

Originally posted by Viper482
Originally posted by Malabooga
Originally posted by Viper482
Originally posted by Malabooga
Originally posted by Nightbringe1
Originally posted by fivoroth
I agree with the OP. And rofl at those people claiming EQ was an rpg. EQ was a grinder devoid of character roleplaying choices and a compelling story. It had more in common with hack and slash games than RPGs.

Everquest had more stories at launch than any 2-3 modern MMO's combined.

The difference was, you had to find the stories. They were not handed to you by NPC's standing around a hub with icons over their heads.

So, in other words, it didnt have any except ones you made up.

And you can do that in any MMO, AND have addition of dev provided ones.

And how many of these linear action mmo's actually have rp tools these days? rp servers? How many can you do custom emotes in? No alot. FFXIV is probably the most rp friendly newer mmo out there, I can't even think of another one to compare it to. The more rp tools the more the game allows you to immerse yourself in rp. The more open the world vs. linear the more it allows you to immerse yourself in the world. Hell, and how about trying to rp when everyone else is running around with stupid names and acting 2015? Where are the rp servers these days? NO game makes them anymore.

I think the majority of rp naysayers here are not rp'ers, so basically you should not even be talking about something you know nothing about.

This is why you shouldnt write anything about something you obviously have no clue.

Pretty much every modern MMO has more RP tools than any "old school" and RP servers.

Even if theres no "official" RP servers theres always community designated RP servers.

And with mega servers you can RP with ANYONE who plays the game, its only on you to find people within much larger pool. Ive seen people RPing in every MMO i ever played. But i guess some people are not so close minded like some others.

Oh really? Name these RP tools "Mr. I know more than you". name me the new MMOs where you can sit at a table in a tavern and emote freely. Bring it.

As the fact you don't understand the difference between an official rp server and a community designated one shows perhaps you should be the one questioning YOUR knowledge of this subject.

Uuh...World of Warcraft and Lord of the Rings Online? Do I get a cookie for "bringing it"?

Originally posted by Impacthound

I don't think TOR will get any bigger in population because of the upcoming movies. The recent J.J. Abrams Star Trek movies did nothing for the Star Trek Online MMO, and the Hobbit trilogy movies did nothing for Lord of the Rings Online's playerbase either. TOR will be 4 years old when Episode 7 comes out, and the other two franchises didn't even air commercials or advertise their respective MMOs before the trailers preceding the movies.

If anything, the only game commercials you can expect to see tied to the new Star Wars movie will be Battlefront 3.

If you're just talking about the producer's letter/roadmap/cancellation of Shadow Realms, it's all empty smoke and baseless hype at the moment. Blizzard has way more staff & when they cancelled Project Titan in May 2013, it still took ages to reassign staff and launch their WoW expac Warlords of Draenor behind schedule. I don't expect any "big things" from SWTOR in 2015 when the current plans are so empty. They still don't even have a date for Togruta heads released for players, which have been companions and NPCs since launch.

I am not sure about the other ones but I went to play lotro after the hobbit movies and there were lots of people in the chat who said they did the same. Of course that only lasted like 1 month for me :D

There are some glaring issues with the mobile version of the website, for example:

1. You can't view your profile/messages and you can't really "login" but you just type in your username and password before you post.

2. You can't edit your posts.

3. You can't quote people, let alone multiquote.

4. Sometimes when you move back and forth between pages, the font changes to either be much smaller than usual or much larger.

1, 2 and 3 are quite big issues. Especially cause if you want to reply to people you have to make multiple posts to reply to different people, that is if you can be bothered to copy paste posts to "quote" them in the first place.

It's quite sad that this website's mobile version is so unoptimised and lacks basic functionalities. Companies nowadays not only make sure that their mobile version are just as good as their desktop versions but a lot of companies are mobile first and they actually have better experience on mobile than on desktop.

As someone who mostly reads these forums on a mobile device on the go, it's quite frustrating.

Originally posted by Nightbringe1
Originally posted by Malabooga

So, in other words, it didnt have any except ones you made up.

Your ignorance is showing.

I am thinking it is your ignorance that's showing. He's pretty much spot on and you simply don't have anything to come back with.

Originally posted by Viper482
Originally posted by fivoroth
I agree with the OP. And rofl at those people claiming EQ was an rpg. EQ was a grinder devoid of character roleplaying choices and a compelling story. It had more in common with hack and slash games than RPGs.

You have no idea what roleplaying is if you think a game needs to hand hold you through it.

Nice try but I never implied that there needs to be handholding. An rpg can be more open ended where you are left to your own devices ala skyrim or can be more guided and story driven like the bio ware classics.

Originally posted by Nightbringe1
Originally posted by fivoroth
I agree with the OP. And rofl at those people claiming EQ was an rpg. EQ was a grinder devoid of character roleplaying choices and a compelling story. It had more in common with hack and slash games than RPGs.

Everquest had more stories at launch than any 2-3 modern MMO's combined.

The difference was, you had to find the stories. They were not handed to you by NPC's standing around a hub with icons over their heads.

Any 2-3 MMOs combined? You must be high. Wow and ESO EACH trump eq's story by a very very long shot. EQ doesn't even come close to the amount of story content In ESO. And that's a fact.

Originally posted by Gestankfaust
Originally posted by NobleNerd

RPG is what gave birth to the virtual worlds that you call MMOs. Those nerdy groups that sat around tables creating characters is what spawned the birth of what would eventually blossom into MMOs.

Oh...this too ^


Anyone who thinks MMOs were made from any other thing than table top delusional

Computer RPGs. That spawned MMORPGs. You know someone is near retirement age if they keep on talking about pnp RPGs.

Originally posted by Eronakis
Originally posted by fivoroth
I agree with the OP. And rofl at those people claiming EQ was an rpg. EQ was a grinder devoid of character roleplaying choices and a compelling story. It had more in common with hack and slash games than RPGs.

There are certain gaming elements that are the makeup of what makes an RPG. EQ had them. The difference is that RPG's are single player games first, then MMO prefix was attached to that. To design an MMORPG, you have to translate RPG elements so that multiple players can enjoy a similar gaming experience and features. The fact was, that they wanted the players to make their own story and place in the world. Again someone who doesn't know what an RPG is. RPG's are not just confined to roleplaying choices, there are other gaming elements that are associated with that. Which leaves me with this thought on your post...


Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, then open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Bullshit. Making your own story is just a sorry excuse made up by EQ apologists. I can say that about any game then. I can make my own story in shooters too and in pretty much every game. 

Eq was a grinder and yes it was labelled as rpg cause it had levels and classes. 

If only you actually gave examples but then again you better keep your mouth shut right? We don't want to dispel any doubts now do we?

I agree with the OP. And rofl at those people claiming EQ was an rpg. EQ was a grinder devoid of character roleplaying choices and a compelling story. It had more in common with hack and slash games than RPGs.
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