I was active a few years ago on the R&P forums but gave up out of frustration  and became are lurker. It was fun reading the (normally) diatribe posted on a daily basis. It was fun knowing all you guys (or just reading your posts), would take any recommendations for newer forums though this was unique. R&P had become somewhat of clique of posters attacking each other constantly but i guess that's what made it fun..

Originally posted by baff

As I understand it, the cops shot an innocent and unarmed black man to death in his car.

I view it as being very similar in nature to one of those LA riots where the same sort of thing happens.

 

We aren't big on gun culture here and the police have a recent history of doing the same thing in same place.

 

The Police then released a story saying they had been shot at first and all the locals knew this was bollocks, so they formed a protest march on the police station. The police responded to this peaceful march with violence. Then things really kicked off.

 

What provokd this riot in my opinion was nothing less than righteous indignation. A very motivational form of anger.

 

 

I don't really buy into all the political undertones of poverty and recession. wealthy people got involved just as much as the poor.

Pretty much summed it up, but I only disagree with the last bit, the majority of rioters were from poor backgrounds. The rest of the idiots who rioted around the country where just opportunists..

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by murdera2k6

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by murdera2k6

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by murdera2k6

 

No we don't. People who subscribe to their beliefs are known has Wahabbis. They have their mosques and most sane people don't attend when they realise what they preach. Though i am not saying all Wahabbis are like that a lot of them agree with these people. However, we do not attend the same mosques. Though i do agree with 2 people can be completely different, one being harmless and the other a nutjob. However, that one person is insane is equivalent to maybe 1 person in 10 mosques and even he is not likely to do anything just sympathise.

It takes a very determined and driven person to act on such beliefs. And what drives them to act? The way the western government act towards Muslim nations, the way you try to demonise us in the news. The Norway incident is a perfect example, everyone ponited the finger at us, someone even posted a link saying unconfirmed reports that it was a terrorist group. The chances of him being a muslim were high, but what happened to innocent until proven guilty? All young people see  is a bunch of white guys (yes it gets racist very quickly because most Muslims tend to be non-white) who are just hating on us, and they begin to think these people deserve it for the way they talk to us. I asked a someone the other day why he was giving a little kid evils and he replied to me he's just going to grow up and turn into a racist. He won't say anything now because he's young but when he's older it'll come out. Of course that's not everyone but the truth is, just like only the crazy muslims get highlighted, a lot of the crazy (white) people are getting highlighted, like groups as the EDL, who claim they are not a racist organisation but the membership of the group consists of very much racist people. However you cannot blame them for turning radical individuals into terrorists because at the end of the day, everyone makes a choice, even if that choice is influenced by such people, it is always a choice. Blame the individuals not the everyone. 

 

You are ignoring reality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Hood_shooting

This is one example.

The man was radical, and attending the same mosque as peaceful Muslims.

It's not just Wahabbis.

Why do you try so hard to make the equivalence argument?

Radical Islam is a problem that dwarfs any other set of crazy people.

We have Hamas, HEzbollah, The Taliban, Al Qaeda, the Muslim Brotherhood, all trying to kill civilians and take over countries and establish Theocracies that are Totalitarian, and that just like Communism do not respect Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion.

We have a country run by these people, Iran, trying to get nuclear weapons.

We have another country, Pakistan, that already has nuclear weapons, in danger of being taken over by these radicals.

We have Afghanistan taht was controlled by these people that committed 9/11.

And you're going to say this is EXACTLY the same as the EDL?

Seriously?

Show me the EDL trying to get nuclear weapons and funding worldwide terrrorism, and trying to establish a TOTALITARIAN government and I'll take you seriously.

And if the EDL is doing these things, then dude, let's put them on the same list with Al Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, the Muslim Brotherhood, and exterminate them all.

One set of crazies doesn't excuse another.

You are possibly the most frustrating poster on this forum. You don't seem to ever understand what i'm trying to say. I'm not comparing any group of crazies yo another, i'm simply saying the EDL (the other group of crazies) can often cause racial tension in communities which leads to an increase of radicalisation. Please read the post carefully and then read it again! 

Don't be stupid, no radical is ever going to take over Pakistan, i know this for a fact, dont bother posting any stupid links trying to back up your stupid point. You have no idea about the situation in Pakistan other than what your pathetic media feeds you. Have you ever been Pakistan? Do you have any idea how strong the Pakistani Military is? The ISI (the Pakistani Intelligence Agency) is one of the best in the world, they know every thing in Pakistan, personally i don't believe that they didn't know Osama was there, it just played into their interests having him in Pakistan. They don't give a damn about you, just like you don't give a damn about Pakistan, you are just protecting your interests and Pakistan is protecting theirs. 

 

Pakistan was harboring Osama bin Laden not far from a Military installation.

I'd say that was an indication of a country in danger of being overtaken by radicals.

The radical Islamists have already infiltrated the military, so your claims about the strength of the Pakistani military are not very reassuring.

Re-read what i said.

No one "radicalizes" Islamists except Mullahs.

They are not REACTING to the EDL or anything else.

They have an agenda they want to accomplish, the Totalitarian rule of society under an Islamic Theocracy.

They want to control your life, and force you to follow Sharia Law and Islam. That is their agenda.

They will kill innnocent civilians to accomplish this agenda.

This agenda is their goal, regardless if you hate them, are nice to them, are Islamophobic, or a good Muslim.

No matter waht, the goal remains the same. Totalitarian rule under a Theocracy, with no freedom of religion, and no freedom of speech, just like Communism. 

Your actions do not create radical Islamists, nor do they influence them in any way. You must either follow Sharia Law under a Totalitarian regime with no freedom of religion and no freedom of speech, or die.

What do you know about radicalisation? What do you know radicalises people? You know NOTHING. You like to think you know, but you don't. Have you even spoke to a 'radical'? Have you even heard the way they speak or observed their socio-economics environment? Have you even considered that some people are radicalised without mullahs? You know nothing, your just an ignorant America who just reads things online and thinks he's a genius because of it. You have experienced nothing, spoken to no one. You don't know a thing. Zilch. Nada. You are just a moron who likes to think he knows the solution to everything. When you don't even understand the problem how do you believe you have the solution? 

 

No substance or piont, just insult. That means I win!

 My point is that you do not undertstand the situation. Therefore your opinion is based on false asumptions.

Yes, the environment of radical is so awful.

Like John Walker Lindh taht came from a middle class white American family.

 

So what drove him to do what he did? And i never said that only por people become terrorists, all i said was have you observed their socio-economic environment? Don't make assumptions. 

 

Nidal Malik Hasan A US ARMY Psychiatrist and OFFICER. You now how bad Army officers have it, what a horrible environment.

 Did you consider his parents upbringing or even his family abroad?

Or these Islamic terrororists in Britain that were Doctors. You know how horrible the environment is for doctors in Britian.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,492196,00.html 

Again, i did not say the envorionment was horrible, did you conisder their upbringing? Did you consider if their families had been affected in wars started by western governments?

 

 

Or Osama bin Laden who was a Billioniare. What terrible conditions to be a billionaire. It's a wonder Donald Trump doesn't start killing civilians because of his awful environment.

Did he carry out acts of terrorism or did he use others to do it for him? He was motivated by Saudis whom you love so much and believe are fighting the war on Terrorism with you. 

The glamour model, the billionaire patriarch with 22 wives and the child terrorist: Meet the OTHER Bin Ladens

 

Obviously the environment makes them do it.

Obviously you still have no clue. And funnily enough you have own picked and chosen terrorists taht suite your argument thereby ignoring the thousands of others in Afghanistan, even the 7/7 bombers, 9/11 bombers you have ignored. Give up the argument and concede for once in your life. Accept that you are wrong. If not that accept that you don't know much about this topic other than sitting on the internet and looking stuff up which 90% of the time is inaccurate. 

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by murdera2k6

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by murdera2k6

 

No we don't. People who subscribe to their beliefs are known has Wahabbis. They have their mosques and most sane people don't attend when they realise what they preach. Though i am not saying all Wahabbis are like that a lot of them agree with these people. However, we do not attend the same mosques. Though i do agree with 2 people can be completely different, one being harmless and the other a nutjob. However, that one person is insane is equivalent to maybe 1 person in 10 mosques and even he is not likely to do anything just sympathise.

It takes a very determined and driven person to act on such beliefs. And what drives them to act? The way the western government act towards Muslim nations, the way you try to demonise us in the news. The Norway incident is a perfect example, everyone ponited the finger at us, someone even posted a link saying unconfirmed reports that it was a terrorist group. The chances of him being a muslim were high, but what happened to innocent until proven guilty? All young people see  is a bunch of white guys (yes it gets racist very quickly because most Muslims tend to be non-white) who are just hating on us, and they begin to think these people deserve it for the way they talk to us. I asked a someone the other day why he was giving a little kid evils and he replied to me he's just going to grow up and turn into a racist. He won't say anything now because he's young but when he's older it'll come out. Of course that's not everyone but the truth is, just like only the crazy muslims get highlighted, a lot of the crazy (white) people are getting highlighted, like groups as the EDL, who claim they are not a racist organisation but the membership of the group consists of very much racist people. However you cannot blame them for turning radical individuals into terrorists because at the end of the day, everyone makes a choice, even if that choice is influenced by such people, it is always a choice. Blame the individuals not the everyone. 

 

You are ignoring reality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Hood_shooting

This is one example.

The man was radical, and attending the same mosque as peaceful Muslims.

It's not just Wahabbis.

Why do you try so hard to make the equivalence argument?

Radical Islam is a problem that dwarfs any other set of crazy people.

We have Hamas, HEzbollah, The Taliban, Al Qaeda, the Muslim Brotherhood, all trying to kill civilians and take over countries and establish Theocracies that are Totalitarian, and that just like Communism do not respect Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion.

We have a country run by these people, Iran, trying to get nuclear weapons.

We have another country, Pakistan, that already has nuclear weapons, in danger of being taken over by these radicals.

We have Afghanistan taht was controlled by these people that committed 9/11.

And you're going to say this is EXACTLY the same as the EDL?

Seriously?

Show me the EDL trying to get nuclear weapons and funding worldwide terrrorism, and trying to establish a TOTALITARIAN government and I'll take you seriously.

And if the EDL is doing these things, then dude, let's put them on the same list with Al Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, the Muslim Brotherhood, and exterminate them all.

One set of crazies doesn't excuse another.

You are possibly the most frustrating poster on this forum. You don't seem to ever understand what i'm trying to say. I'm not comparing any group of crazies yo another, i'm simply saying the EDL (the other group of crazies) can often cause racial tension in communities which leads to an increase of radicalisation. Please read the post carefully and then read it again! 

Don't be stupid, no radical is ever going to take over Pakistan, i know this for a fact, dont bother posting any stupid links trying to back up your stupid point. You have no idea about the situation in Pakistan other than what your pathetic media feeds you. Have you ever been Pakistan? Do you have any idea how strong the Pakistani Military is? The ISI (the Pakistani Intelligence Agency) is one of the best in the world, they know every thing in Pakistan, personally i don't believe that they didn't know Osama was there, it just played into their interests having him in Pakistan. They don't give a damn about you, just like you don't give a damn about Pakistan, you are just protecting your interests and Pakistan is protecting theirs. 

 

Pakistan was harboring Osama bin Laden not far from a Military installation.

I'd say that was an indication of a country in danger of being overtaken by radicals.

The radical Islamists have already infiltrated the military, so your claims about the strength of the Pakistani military are not very reassuring.

Re-read what i said.

No one "radicalizes" Islamists except Mullahs.

They are not REACTING to the EDL or anything else.

They have an agenda they want to accomplish, the Totalitarian rule of society under an Islamic Theocracy.

They want to control your life, and force you to follow Sharia Law and Islam. That is their agenda.

They will kill innnocent civilians to accomplish this agenda.

This agenda is their goal, regardless if you hate them, are nice to them, are Islamophobic, or a good Muslim.

No matter waht, the goal remains the same. Totalitarian rule under a Theocracy, with no freedom of religion, and no freedom of speech, just like Communism. 

Your actions do not create radical Islamists, nor do they influence them in any way. You must either follow Sharia Law under a Totalitarian regime with no freedom of religion and no freedom of speech, or die.

What do you know about radicalisation? What do you know radicalises people? You know NOTHING. You like to think you know, but you don't. Have you even spoke to a 'radical'? Have you even heard the way they speak or observed their socio-economics environment? Have you even considered that some people are radicalised without mullahs? You know nothing, your just an ignorant America who just reads things online and thinks he's a genius because of it. You have experienced nothing, spoken to no one. You don't know a thing. Zilch. Nada. You are just a moron who likes to think he knows the solution to everything. When you don't even understand the problem how do you believe you have the solution? 

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by murdera2k6

 

No we don't. People who subscribe to their beliefs are known has Wahabbis. They have their mosques and most sane people don't attend when they realise what they preach. Though i am not saying all Wahabbis are like that a lot of them agree with these people. However, we do not attend the same mosques. Though i do agree with 2 people can be completely different, one being harmless and the other a nutjob. However, that one person is insane is equivalent to maybe 1 person in 10 mosques and even he is not likely to do anything just sympathise.

It takes a very determined and driven person to act on such beliefs. And what drives them to act? The way the western government act towards Muslim nations, the way you try to demonise us in the news. The Norway incident is a perfect example, everyone ponited the finger at us, someone even posted a link saying unconfirmed reports that it was a terrorist group. The chances of him being a muslim were high, but what happened to innocent until proven guilty? All young people see  is a bunch of white guys (yes it gets racist very quickly because most Muslims tend to be non-white) who are just hating on us, and they begin to think these people deserve it for the way they talk to us. I asked a someone the other day why he was giving a little kid evils and he replied to me he's just going to grow up and turn into a racist. He won't say anything now because he's young but when he's older it'll come out. Of course that's not everyone but the truth is, just like only the crazy muslims get highlighted, a lot of the crazy (white) people are getting highlighted, like groups as the EDL, who claim they are not a racist organisation but the membership of the group consists of very much racist people. However you cannot blame them for turning radical individuals into terrorists because at the end of the day, everyone makes a choice, even if that choice is influenced by such people, it is always a choice. Blame the individuals not the everyone. 

 

You are ignoring reality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Hood_shooting

This is one example.

The man was radical, and attending the same mosque as peaceful Muslims.

It's not just Wahabbis.

Why do you try so hard to make the equivalence argument?

Radical Islam is a problem that dwarfs any other set of crazy people.

We have Hamas, HEzbollah, The Taliban, Al Qaeda, the Muslim Brotherhood, all trying to kill civilians and take over countries and establish Theocracies that are Totalitarian, and that just like Communism do not respect Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion.

We have a country run by these people, Iran, trying to get nuclear weapons.

We have another country, Pakistan, that already has nuclear weapons, in danger of being taken over by these radicals.

We have Afghanistan taht was controlled by these people that committed 9/11.

And you're going to say this is EXACTLY the same as the EDL?

Seriously?

Show me the EDL trying to get nuclear weapons and funding worldwide terrrorism, and trying to establish a TOTALITARIAN government and I'll take you seriously.

And if the EDL is doing these things, then dude, let's put them on the same list with Al Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, the Muslim Brotherhood, and exterminate them all.

One set of crazies doesn't excuse another.

You are possibly the most frustrating poster on this forum. You don't seem to ever understand what i'm trying to say. I'm not comparing any group of crazies yo another, i'm simply saying the EDL (the other group of crazies) can often cause racial tension in communities which leads to an increase of radicalisation. Please read the post carefully and then read it again! 

Don't be stupid, no radical is ever going to take over Pakistan, i know this for a fact, dont bother posting any stupid links trying to back up your stupid point. You have no idea about the situation in Pakistan other than what your pathetic media feeds you. Have you ever been Pakistan? Do you have any idea how strong the Pakistani Military is? The ISI (the Pakistani Intelligence Agency) is one of the best in the world, they know every thing in Pakistan, personally i don't believe that they didn't know Osama was there, it just played into their interests having him in Pakistan. They don't give a damn about you, just like you don't give a damn about Pakistan, you are just protecting your interests and Pakistan is protecting theirs. 

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by murdera2k6

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by murdera2k6

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by generals3

Originally posted by Uhwop

Something most non muslims have a hard time understanding.

If you don't live by sharia law, you're not a muslim.   Islam is not christianity, or judiaism.  It's not open to interpritation, or debate.  They have a book that you read  in conjunction with the quaran, that explains exactly how a muslim is supposed to live and exactly what the passages in the quaran mean. 

Having said that, every man should be judged by his actions, not his worship.

Oh really?

I know a couple of muslims who'd like to kick you in the balls for saying such crap. It's not because extremist nutbags say so it's true.

And there are christian not leaving the bible up for interpretation. You can do it with EVERY religious book. Either you're open minded or follow it by the letter.

 

Generals, this is true.

If you don't follow any of the customs of a religion, then how are you a member of that religion?

It's like saying, I"m a Christian, but I don't believe in Jesus Christ.

Or I'm a Jew, but I don't belive in the Old Testament of the Bible or God.

Or, I"m a Buddhist, but I don't follow the teachings of Buddha.

It's a complete contradiction.

Muslims follow a religious version of Sharia Law. If they don't, they are not Muslim.

The problem is the POLITICAL component of Sharia Law and Islam.

Not just following Sharia Law personally, but forcing society to follow  a Totalitarian Governent that polices the citizens nad puts them in jail for not following the religions Sharia customs.

Let's say you don't drink alcohol, because you are Muslim. That is following Sharia Law.

Nothing wroing with that.

LEt's say you put everyone in jail that drinks alcohol, nad burn down alcohol factories because you have a Religions Totalitarian government. You don't even let people vote on this issue, you just enforce it.

That's POLITICAL Sharia Law. And let's say you take this a step further, and if society doesn't follow Political Sharia Law, then you blow up women and children in a market place. That's Radical Islam.

See the difference?

 

So yes, if you don't personally follow Sharia Law, you're not a Muslim, any more than someone that doens't belive in Jesus Christ is a Christian.

This is all Sharia Law. If you don't do ANY of these things, how are you a Muslim?

• 3.3 Topics of Islamic law
  • 3.3.1 Purification
  • 3.3.2 Prayer
  • 3.3.3 Funeral prayer
  • 3.3.4 Taxes
    • 3.3.4.1 Other taxes
  • 3.3.5 Fasting
  • 3.3.6 Pilgrimage
  • 3.3.7 Trade
  • 3.3.8 Inheritance
  • 3.3.9 Marriage
    • 3.3.9.1 Polygamy
  • 3.3.10 Divorce
    • 3.3.10.1 Child custody
  • 3.3.11 Justice
    • 3.3.11.1 Legal and court proceedings
    • 3.3.11.2 Penalties
    • 3.3.11.3 Leaving Islam/Apostasy
  • 3.3.12 Dietary
  • 3.3.13 Liquor and gambling
  • 3.3.14 Customs and behaviour
    • 3.3.14.1 Rituals
    • 3.3.14.2 Dress codes

 

No Generals is right. If you live in a non-muslim country you are obliged (by SHARIAH) to follow the laws of that country. Some nut-jobs believe that  you shouldn't but they are just a fringe group. And so following the laws of another country does not make you a non-muslim. Period. And don't patrionise by sending me wikipedia links on my own religion.

 

What's the point is calling them "fringe"?

They have started a War in Afghanistan, they rule over Iran the most powerful country in the Middle East right now on the verge of getting nukes, they perpetrated the most devasting attack in history on US soil. They caused riots on France, and the Netherlands demanding Sharia Law be followed. They rule over part of Palestine.

There are world wide terrorist networks that commit killings of civilians on an almost daily basis, and recieve funding from Islamic "charities". They are called Al Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, the Muslim Brotherhood, The Taliban, and others. Pakistan was harboring one of the leaders of Al Qaeda, Osama bin Laden, and he was still organizing terrorist attacks from theat country, which is heavily influenced by radical Islam.

If there are a Billion Muslims world wide, and only 10% are radical Islamists, that would be 100 million people.

I don't think "fringe" is an accurate description.

Fringe generally gives a connotation of a powerless small contingent of people that have relatively little influence.

Radical Islam is global, and has world wide influence at the moment. It's in France, the US, Somalia, the Netherlands, most countries on the planet.

Civlians have been killed in the name of Allah by radical Islamists in so many countries it would take a page to list them all.

And I'm talking about this decade, not the Crusades.

I"m sorry if a sect  of your religion embarasses you, but it's futile to deny that part of the Muslim religion is radical Islam.

I was talking about people in non-shariah (non-islamic) countries who believe that the laws of the land should not be followed the global radical islam problem. In the UK, France, Netherlands they ARE a fringe group. In islamic countries maybe not. 

 

We don't disagree.

In the Netherlands, trying to kill anyone that makes a Cartoon of Muhammed is fringe.

IN Iran, or Afghanistan under the Taliban, that's the law of the land imposed by the ruling Mullahs, definitley not "fringe". 

Radical Islamists want this to be the law everywhere in the Middle East, and eventually everywhere in the world.

They are willing to kill women and children in market places until this becomes reality. Just like Communists, they do not believe in freedom of religion, or freedom of speech.

Enforcing political Sharia Law is much more important to them than these concepts of freedom.

 

The problem is that many people want to hide from the reality that both of these groups may attend the same Mosque.

There is a Muslim that does not drink alcohol, because he believes in the teachings of the Qu'ran. He does not want to burn down alcohol factories, or outlaw alchohol, or kill women and children in a market place until society outlaws alcohol.

There is a Muslim that beileves Allah wants him to kill women and children in a market place, until society realizes it must outlaw alchohol, because this is the will of Allah. Mullahs should rule society, not voters.

Those two Muslims may be worshipping right next to each other in the same Mosque. One is harmless, the other is a cancer on society.

That is the problem that many want to ignore this problem, or cry "racisim" or discrimination when someone points it out. or they try to deflect by saying "But, but  Christians are bad too!" even though there is no Christian equivalent of Iran, or Afghanistan under the Taliban.

No we don't. People who subscribe to their beliefs are known has Wahabbis. They have their mosques and most sane people don't attend when they realise what they preach. Though i am not saying all Wahabbis are like that a lot of them agree with these people. However, we do not attend the same mosques. Though i do agree with 2 people can be completely different, one being harmless and the other a nutjob. However, that one person is insane is equivalent to maybe 1 person in 10 mosques and even he is not likely to do anything just sympathise.

It takes a very determined and driven person to act on such beliefs. And what drives them to act? The way the western government act towards Muslim nations, the way you try to demonise us in the news. The Norway incident is a perfect example, everyone ponited the finger at us, someone even posted a link saying unconfirmed reports that it was a terrorist group. The chances of him being a muslim were high, but what happened to innocent until proven guilty? All young people see  is a bunch of white guys (yes it gets racist very quickly because most Muslims tend to be non-white) who are just hating on us, and they begin to think these people deserve it for the way they talk to us. I asked a someone the other day why he was giving a little kid evils and he replied to me he's just going to grow up and turn into a racist. He won't say anything now because he's young but when he's older it'll come out. Of course that's not everyone but the truth is, just like only the crazy muslims get highlighted, a lot of the crazy (white) people are getting highlighted, like groups as the EDL, who claim they are not a racist organisation but the membership of the group consists of very much racist people. However you cannot blame them for turning radical individuals into terrorists because at the end of the day, everyone makes a choice, even if that choice is influenced by such people, it is always a choice. Blame the individuals not the everyone. 

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by murdera2k6

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by generals3

Originally posted by Uhwop

Something most non muslims have a hard time understanding.

If you don't live by sharia law, you're not a muslim.   Islam is not christianity, or judiaism.  It's not open to interpritation, or debate.  They have a book that you read  in conjunction with the quaran, that explains exactly how a muslim is supposed to live and exactly what the passages in the quaran mean. 

Having said that, every man should be judged by his actions, not his worship.

Oh really?

I know a couple of muslims who'd like to kick you in the balls for saying such crap. It's not because extremist nutbags say so it's true.

And there are christian not leaving the bible up for interpretation. You can do it with EVERY religious book. Either you're open minded or follow it by the letter.

 

Generals, this is true.

If you don't follow any of the customs of a religion, then how are you a member of that religion?

It's like saying, I"m a Christian, but I don't believe in Jesus Christ.

Or I'm a Jew, but I don't belive in the Old Testament of the Bible or God.

Or, I"m a Buddhist, but I don't follow the teachings of Buddha.

It's a complete contradiction.

Muslims follow a religious version of Sharia Law. If they don't, they are not Muslim.

The problem is the POLITICAL component of Sharia Law and Islam.

Not just following Sharia Law personally, but forcing society to follow  a Totalitarian Governent that polices the citizens nad puts them in jail for not following the religions Sharia customs.

Let's say you don't drink alcohol, because you are Muslim. That is following Sharia Law.

Nothing wroing with that.

LEt's say you put everyone in jail that drinks alcohol, nad burn down alcohol factories because you have a Religions Totalitarian government. You don't even let people vote on this issue, you just enforce it.

That's POLITICAL Sharia Law. And let's say you take this a step further, and if society doesn't follow Political Sharia Law, then you blow up women and children in a market place. That's Radical Islam.

See the difference?

 

So yes, if you don't personally follow Sharia Law, you're not a Muslim, any more than someone that doens't belive in Jesus Christ is a Christian.

This is all Sharia Law. If you don't do ANY of these things, how are you a Muslim?

• 3.3 Topics of Islamic law
  • 3.3.1 Purification
  • 3.3.2 Prayer
  • 3.3.3 Funeral prayer
  • 3.3.4 Taxes
    • 3.3.4.1 Other taxes
  • 3.3.5 Fasting
  • 3.3.6 Pilgrimage
  • 3.3.7 Trade
  • 3.3.8 Inheritance
  • 3.3.9 Marriage
    • 3.3.9.1 Polygamy
  • 3.3.10 Divorce
    • 3.3.10.1 Child custody
  • 3.3.11 Justice
    • 3.3.11.1 Legal and court proceedings
    • 3.3.11.2 Penalties
    • 3.3.11.3 Leaving Islam/Apostasy
  • 3.3.12 Dietary
  • 3.3.13 Liquor and gambling
  • 3.3.14 Customs and behaviour
    • 3.3.14.1 Rituals
    • 3.3.14.2 Dress codes

 

No Generals is right. If you live in a non-muslim country you are obliged (by SHARIAH) to follow the laws of that country. Some nut-jobs believe that  you shouldn't but they are just a fringe group. And so following the laws of another country does not make you a non-muslim. Period. And don't patrionise by sending me wikipedia links on my own religion.

 

What's the point is calling them "fringe"?

They have started a War in Afghanistan, they rule over Iran the most powerful country in the Middle East right now on the verge of getting nukes, they perpetrated the most devasting attack in history on US soil. They caused riots on France, and the Netherlands demanding Sharia Law be followed. They rule over part of Palestine.

There are world wide terrorist networks that commit killings of civilians on an almost daily basis, and recieve funding from Islamic "charities". They are called Al Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, the Muslim Brotherhood, The Taliban, and others. Pakistan was harboring one of the leaders of Al Qaeda, Osama bin Laden, and he was still organizing terrorist attacks from theat country, which is heavily influenced by radical Islam.

If there are a Billion Muslims world wide, and only 10% are radical Islamists, that would be 100 million people.

I don't think "fringe" is an accurate description.

Fringe generally gives a connotation of a powerless small contingent of people that have relatively little influence.

Radical Islam is global, and has world wide influence at the moment. It's in France, the US, Somalia, the Netherlands, most countries on the planet.

Civlians have been killed in the name of Allah by radical Islamists in so many countries it would take a page to list them all.

And I'm talking about this decade, not the Crusades.

I"m sorry if a sect  of your religion embarasses you, but it's futile to deny that part of the Muslim religion is radical Islam.

I was talking about people in non-shariah (non-islamic) countries who believe that the laws of the land should not be followed the global radical islam problem. In the UK, France, Netherlands they ARE a fringe group. In islamic countries maybe not. 

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by generals3

Originally posted by Uhwop

Something most non muslims have a hard time understanding.

If you don't live by sharia law, you're not a muslim.   Islam is not christianity, or judiaism.  It's not open to interpritation, or debate.  They have a book that you read  in conjunction with the quaran, that explains exactly how a muslim is supposed to live and exactly what the passages in the quaran mean. 

Having said that, every man should be judged by his actions, not his worship.

Oh really?

I know a couple of muslims who'd like to kick you in the balls for saying such crap. It's not because extremist nutbags say so it's true.

And there are christian not leaving the bible up for interpretation. You can do it with EVERY religious book. Either you're open minded or follow it by the letter.

 

Generals, this is true.

If you don't follow any of the customs of a religion, then how are you a member of that religion?

It's like saying, I"m a Christian, but I don't believe in Jesus Christ.

Or I'm a Jew, but I don't belive in the Old Testament of the Bible or God.

Or, I"m a Buddhist, but I don't follow the teachings of Buddha.

It's a complete contradiction.

Muslims follow a religious version of Sharia Law. If they don't, they are not Muslim.

The problem is the POLITICAL component of Sharia Law and Islam.

Not just following Sharia Law personally, but forcing society to follow  a Totalitarian Governent that polices the citizens nad puts them in jail for not following the religions Sharia customs.

Let's say you don't drink alcohol, because you are Muslim. That is following Sharia Law.

Nothing wroing with that.

LEt's say you put everyone in jail that drinks alcohol, nad burn down alcohol factories because you have a Religions Totalitarian government. You don't even let people vote on this issue, you just enforce it.

That's POLITICAL Sharia Law. And let's say you take this a step further, and if society doesn't follow Political Sharia Law, then you blow up women and children in a market place. That's Radical Islam.

See the difference?

 

So yes, if you don't personally follow Sharia Law, you're not a Muslim, any more than someone that doens't belive in Jesus Christ is a Christian.

This is all Sharia Law. If you don't do ANY of these things, how are you a Muslim?

• 3.3 Topics of Islamic law
  • 3.3.1 Purification
  • 3.3.2 Prayer
  • 3.3.3 Funeral prayer
  • 3.3.4 Taxes
    • 3.3.4.1 Other taxes
  • 3.3.5 Fasting
  • 3.3.6 Pilgrimage
  • 3.3.7 Trade
  • 3.3.8 Inheritance
  • 3.3.9 Marriage
    • 3.3.9.1 Polygamy
  • 3.3.10 Divorce
    • 3.3.10.1 Child custody
  • 3.3.11 Justice
    • 3.3.11.1 Legal and court proceedings
    • 3.3.11.2 Penalties
    • 3.3.11.3 Leaving Islam/Apostasy
  • 3.3.12 Dietary
  • 3.3.13 Liquor and gambling
  • 3.3.14 Customs and behaviour
    • 3.3.14.1 Rituals
    • 3.3.14.2 Dress codes

 

No Generals is right. If you live in a non-muslim country you are obliged (by SHARIAH) to follow the laws of that country. Some nut-jobs believe that  you shouldn't but they are just a fringe group. And so following the laws of another country does not make you a non-muslim. Period. And don't patrionise by sending me wikipedia links on my own religion.

Thought i'd make another thread as the other one was getting derailed..but yeah apparently he had 2 more cells.

Link

Originally posted by Josher

Considering India doesn't wave their giant rockets around in everyone faces like we apparently do, seems like the terrorists are starting spreading the wealth around.  Can't say its because of US war mongering anymore I guess.  Really sad.   Sorry about those who died. 

Or perhaps for India's involvement in Pakistan..or maybe some fundamentalists have become fed-up of the Hindu-extremist persecution of non hindus? We often like to say in Pakistan; at least our terrorists are in the Mountains, their terrorsist walk in their streets and are praised as heros. Hindu-extremist are often just as bad if not worse in some cases as Muslim extremists, look it up, there's some fucked up shit out there.

We win with this, period.

WIN!

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by murdera2k6

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by sepher

The Qur'an doesn't condone killing innocent people either. Osama watching porn shouldn't shock anyone when it comes to lack of adherence to being any sort of a practicing Muslim, he's long since given that up.

 

That is not an accurate statement. Like any religion or Holy Book, it is subject ot interpretation.

That is merely YOUR interpretation of the Qu'ran.

It is only accurate if you can prove that YOUR interpretation is correct, and all others are false. Can you prove that?

2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

2:193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.

2:216 Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.

2:244 Fight in the way of Allah, and know that Allah is Hearer, Knower.

5:33 The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom.

Source(s):

Quran

 

 

What does fight them until "persecution is no more" and "religion is for Allah" mean exactly?

 

What is "persecution"? Not allowing the government to enforce Sharia law? Is that Persecution?

 

Does fight until "religion is for Allah" mean fight until everyone converts to Islam?

 

However you answer, it will be your interpretation.

 

How you can say your interpretation is correct, and that mine, or someone elses is incorrect?

 

Did you get your interpretation directly from Allah?

 

Have you looked at the context of each verse? Have you looked at the sitaution in which those verses were revealed? No? didn't think so, go take off your flame suite and grow up a bit.

 

Do you realize that you just proved my point?

What are you doing if you look at the situation and the context?

You're interpreting the meaning, right?

Might point is proven.

Are you claiming that every human being on the planet will come to the same conclusion you do, when you look at the context and situation?

I think you're going to have a hard time proving that one.

Looking at the context is not drawing a conclusion. 

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by sepher

The Qur'an doesn't condone killing innocent people either. Osama watching porn shouldn't shock anyone when it comes to lack of adherence to being any sort of a practicing Muslim, he's long since given that up.

 

That is not an accurate statement. Like any religion or Holy Book, it is subject ot interpretation.

That is merely YOUR interpretation of the Qu'ran.

It is only accurate if you can prove that YOUR interpretation is correct, and all others are false. Can you prove that?

2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

2:193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.

2:216 Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.

2:244 Fight in the way of Allah, and know that Allah is Hearer, Knower.

5:33 The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom.

Source(s):

Quran

 

 

What does fight them until "persecution is no more" and "religion is for Allah" mean exactly?

 

What is "persecution"? Not allowing the government to enforce Sharia law? Is that Persecution?

 

Does fight until "religion is for Allah" mean fight until everyone converts to Islam?

 

However you answer, it will be your interpretation.

 

How you can say your interpretation is correct, and that mine, or someone elses is incorrect?

 

Did you get your interpretation directly from Allah?

 

Have you looked at the context of each verse? Have you looked at the sitaution in which those verses were revealed? No? didn't think so, go take off your flame suite and grow up a bit.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by murdera2k6

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by murdera2k6

Pakistan were definitely aware of the operation, they just won't admit it because of the backlash it will cause. I can say this for a fact because that Helicopter cannot travel the 120km from the Afghan border to Abbotobad without refueling. Therefore it must have refueled in Pakistan. On top of that, to suggest that the Pak airforce did not pick up a helicopter flying in our air space is ridiculous. We pick up indian planes before they even approach our border, how in god's name did a helicopter get all the way to abbotobad above a military stronghold?! It's just silly to think that they did it without the express consent of the Pak govt. At the moment im holding back any thoughts of Bin Laden being dead until I see evidence. It's all too fishy right now, the burial they gave him is not in accordance to Islamic law and to claim it as a reason for burying him in the sea is ridiculous. If they have photos, show them just to shut everyone up!

 

It's the Navy Seals, not the Indians. The Seals are the best on the planet at what they do.

But they're in a Helicopter, flying over or nearby a military compound, refueling IN PAKISTAN which has to be done in a military base..most probably Pakistani. It's not possible that they were not seen.

 

Sorry. Pakistanis didn't know about it. 

If they did, Pakistanis would have tipped of Bin Laden, and he wouldnt' be dead now.

How'd the Seals do it exactly? I imagine the details are classified.

That's your claim backed only by word, facts and logic would disagree with you.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by murdera2k6

Pakistan were definitely aware of the operation, they just won't admit it because of the backlash it will cause. I can say this for a fact because that Helicopter cannot travel the 120km from the Afghan border to Abbotobad without refueling. Therefore it must have refueled in Pakistan. On top of that, to suggest that the Pak airforce did not pick up a helicopter flying in our air space is ridiculous. We pick up indian planes before they even approach our border, how in god's name did a helicopter get all the way to abbotobad above a military stronghold?! It's just silly to think that they did it without the express consent of the Pak govt. At the moment im holding back any thoughts of Bin Laden being dead until I see evidence. It's all too fishy right now, the burial they gave him is not in accordance to Islamic law and to claim it as a reason for burying him in the sea is ridiculous. If they have photos, show them just to shut everyone up!

 

It's the Navy Seals, not the Indians. The Seals are the best on the planet at what they do.

But they're in a Helicopter, flying over or nearby a military compound, refueling IN PAKISTAN which has to be done in a military base..most probably Pakistani. It's not possible that they were not seen.

Pakistan were definitely aware of the operation, they just won't admit it because of the backlash it will cause. I can say this for a fact because that Helicopter cannot travel the 120km from the Afghan border to Abbotobad without refueling. Therefore it must have refueled in Pakistan. On top of that, to suggest that the Pak airforce did not pick up a helicopter flying in our air space is ridiculous. We pick up indian planes before they even approach our border, how in god's name did a helicopter get all the way to abbotobad above a military stronghold?! It's just silly to think that they did it without the express consent of the Pak govt. At the moment im holding back any thoughts of Bin Laden being dead until I see evidence. It's all too fishy right now, the burial they gave him is not in accordance to Islamic law and to claim it as a reason for burying him in the sea is ridiculous. If they have photos, show them just to shut everyone up!

Originally posted by kobie173

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by kobie173

Originally posted by outfctrl

What gripes me is that we have been giving Pakistan loads of money to find this guy and he was there the whole time.

Hang on though. The part of Pakistan he was in is not exactly under the jurisdiction of the Pakistani government. I don't trust the Pakistani government as far as I can throw it, but it's not like they can just waltz into those tribal areas and grab OBL without taking significant losses.

 

My geography isn't that great. It's just hard for me to keep a grasp in my mind of every country another country is adjacent to, wehre exactly it is in the world, etc. That's what maps are for.

 

Anyway, I was suprised to see how close to India Osama was.

There's no love between India and Pakistan, and this probably won't help that situation.

Nowhere near India. The compound was 35 miles from Islamabad (YOUR FUCKING CAPITAL, PAKISTAN, WAKE UP). Would have taken a convoy quite some time to get to India, and from what I gather, border security on the east side of Pakistan is a WEEE BIT tighter than border security on the west side of Pakistan, where there is none.

India wants NOTHING to do with radical Islam, and they have cracked down since the Mumbai attack. I'm sure they're actually happy that Pakistan isn't making a stink over us basically walking in and taking care of this asshole without their permission.

err they went in based on the intelligence the ISI provided them, they didn't just waltz in without our permission..they couldn't have done it without us.

For 10 fucking years i've had to deal with racism because of what this bastard did. About time they got him! I do feel just simply being killed is not justice enough. I wanted him tortured, then finished off.

I agree Xirik, I would normally not celeberate the death of another human but this motherfucker is an exception.

oh here we go again...an American trying to understand a British Politician. He is pretty much ridiculed in the UK because he's a moron. He'll make the odd valid point but on debate shows he's basically laughed at. He's immature and unprofessional.