To date Codemasters has created more games that go from the store bag to the garbage can than any other 3 game developing companies combined.

They will need to do something extraordinary and I'll have to see somebody else buy it and show me how wonderful it is before they ever get another penny from me.

We got the game installed last nite and the downloads are finished.  I created a shammy and she's looking at what she wants.  I had forgotten how beautiful the game is and the weather is simply amazing.  It was snowing last night in the woodelf lands and we just sat there looking at the snow falling. 

I haven't played since beta and a month of launch around Feb of this year.  We'll see how it goes.

Okay.   First let me say I love PVP in the right amounts and doses.  If I can find a good fair game where each side has a chance nothing is more fun that pounding away at other players hoping to win the day with my team or squad.

That said...Why would a carebear play this game?

I am willing to admit that PVP players make up an incredibly small number of the population of successful MMO's today.  If this game does not give the PVE centric players something MASSIVE and VERY soon they will have absolutely no reason to pay 50 bucks plus I'm assuming another 15 bucks a month to bother with this game.

What this means is that it will amount to the same kind of population that DAoC has which is dismal at best.  Same people same servers same ole crap ad nauseum.

So again, why would a carebear...the largest population of players and the player base that determines a game's success, why would they play this?

Honestly curious...

I'm not sure that I would go so far as some of these thread responses have but I'll say this.  The VAST magority of the mmo subscriber world is comprised of Carebears.  Perhaps 20 percent at the very most are those who would be described as hardcore.

Hello Vangaurd fanbois unite...I thought this discussion would have ended when the idiots who said VSoH would kill WoW and unite everyone under the banner of better gaming...please what a load of crap.  It was crap then, it's still crap now.

When the flamers tell me I'm wrong...guess what, it will still be crap then.

One simple rules applies to games.  Have fun.  If you have fun it doesn't bloody matter how hard or challenging or monotonous the game is to those who do not enjoy it.   If you find it fun then bingo it succeeds.

Making a game the appeals to the hardcore mindset fails.  It has always failed, and it will continue to fail.  The games that have come out over the last 2 years are proof of this.  The games coming out show this also to be true.  Most of them are copying much of what has PROVEN itself to work simply because the MONEY determines where the games are going, not the loudest opinions of the gaming elitists.

I'm a carebear and my brother and sister carebears outnumber all of you by a stupidly rediculous factor.  Keep playing your Archlord and Vanguard games and we'll enjoy our WoW and War and AoC games.

We can meet and shoot each other in Halo 3 when we're not grinding.  And when I get bored I'll mindlessly enjoy some DR and walk through town showing off my uber axe of bloodthirsty l337ness.

Why not take the 20 million or so it will cost to fly him up there and invest it in game improvements?

I would think that would be a more efficient use of the funds involved.

I accept it might be expansion content.  What that means is that my support, my money and my time will be spent elsewhere when this game goes live.

If I do give in and play it I guess I can make a goblin shaman or Black Orc and join the rest of the massive horde of destruction players because the light side choices are boring as hell...

Slayers fit perfectly if you really know their lore as opposed to just the muck you can find online. 

Slayers are regularly used in dwarven armies as shock troops.  Please refer to the armies books from the tabletop game or the roleplaying game character career section.

If you read any of the books, Michael Kings slayer series...one of the most popular series by the way, or the book Grudgebearer which is specifically noted in the remarks about the game from the developers, you would know that Slayers were present in the army of the King who held the pass against the 2nd orcish invasion.

Slayers regularly take on the most dangerous quests for notables throughout the old empire in numerous books and novels.   Slayers are found facing orcs and chaos on a regular basis in this world.

Mythic chose to ignore this "Lore".  Which makes no sense to me because they even choose to put a Slayer as the main dwarven character in their freakin Cinematic preview movie....

And then they leave them out completely from the game.  Not to mention if the Dwarven Kingdom ever fell as their storyline says, the Slayer King would bring an Army of slayers to take it back!  This is the FIRST thing that would happen.  Anyone familiar with the world knows this. 

I can't believe they don't let you make trollslayers....

This upset me so much it took months for me to pay attention to the damn game again.  The only thing that will get me to play it now is if they allow them as a prestige class or upper tier class or hero class or something.

Why do away with something that has MADE this game popular?  It just seems stupid to me.

The classes for dwarves look silly to be honest.  Where is the kewlness factor for the Light side.  Why play anything other than destruction?

I've been in TR since closed beta and I wanted to give my review very quickly.  35yrs old fart gamer.

Graphics -  I think the graphics are spot on.  They can be compared to any of the games out there currently.  NCSoft is known for games that push the limits of your system so don't expect the older systems to run this game with the graphics pushed up.  Lower them for better performance.  High end systems will allow the look of this game to shine.  The effects on the Logos powers are very nice to watch and definately eye candy once you reach the mid-level range.  The areas and locations are also very nice looking.  Just yesterday I was glad to see over general chat a group of people talking about just looking up at how kewl  the sky was.  The game "looks" really good.

UI - The UI is very standard if your familiar with games out presently.  You have a bar to place powers on and you simply drag and drop the items and or powers you wish to access onto this bar.  I have seen some people have problems with this, but it boils down to lack of experience with MMO's and not  reading the instructions very well.  The system was very simple and intuitive for me.  A Chimpanze with shiny stuff nearby might have problems figuring it out.  In this case there are lots of helpful people in the beta that will answer your questions.  You may have to ignore several jerks to get that answer but you will get one.  Every game has that.

Gameplay -  This is the part that most of us are interested in.  First the good parts.  When I was first invited into the beta I was riveted for weeks.  The quest lines make it very easy to learn the game system.  They have a very nice tutorial that immediately gets you into the action and explains how the game works....IF YOU READ THE TEXT.   If you don't bother to read the explanations then not only will you have a difficult time in the game, but you are an idiot anyway and nothing other than a full lobotomy will help you in the first place.   lrn2readkthxbai. 
The quests take you from the tutorial immediately into the outskirts of the war on Foreas.  This planet is beautiful with many different places to explore.  For those of you who like to explore a new world, your going to love how this works.  The quests are designed to take you all over the new location and let you see the best of what Tabula Rasa has to offer.  Believe me when I say you'll be fighting every step of the way.  They have done an excellent job of giving it the feel of a combat zone.
Now for the downside.  After about a month+ I started to get bored.  I left the beta for a bit and played some other things until I got a mail saying they had updated a brand new version of the EXE.  At that time I came back.
The game is repetitive in places but then what MMO isn't.  The game has some obvious no-brainer quests that you have to do, but then what MMO doesn't.  The game is equipment based just like every other MMO out there.  The better your equipment the easier time you'll have of it.  That being said you can finish all the quests with starter equipment without getting frustrated if you learn to play your class well.
Another issue with the game is one of balance.  At this time certain classes far outstrip the abilities of other classes.  I think this will be solved over the next few weeks as we approach the retail date.  This is my opinion we'll just have to see.  If those balance issues are dealt with satisfactorily I think about 95% of the whining on many forums will cease.  Please understand the classes which aren't uber powerful are still fun to play.  My medic is a blast to play and I love my sapper.  Force Fields are just kewl.

Cloning - I get to try everything this game has to offer without giving up my life or my job or being 13 years old.  I LOVE this feature and wish more game developers would get this and implement it immediately.  Best innovative feature of any game I've ever seen. Thank you NCSoft for doing this!!!

PVP -  This is all but non-existent.  The only version I have seen so far is the ability to duel other players.  This doesn't bother me much as I am more interested in the PVE portions of the game anyway.  All the games  that are PVP centered don't do well anyway so I'm happy this one has it minimized.

Grouping/Solo - This is the biggest issue at this time that I am aware of.  Most of this game, if not all of this game may be soloed.  You do not need a group for more than 95% of the game content I have seen.  As they modify and balance the character classes this might change between now and release.  We'll see.  As the game stands right now, I have not had a problem soloing any content with any character.  It is slightly more difficult with the melee characters because of the balance issues.  Again I think this will be solved and solo will be just as easy for them as for the ranged characters.

Economy -  There is no economy to speak of.  Crafting is instantaneous and you create what you need with little or no trouble.  Nobody realy trades anything, there is no auction house, trade channel is normally quiet.  I dislike this as it would be much easier to equip my toons if I could trade with other people more easily.  This is my biggest complaint about the game as it stands right now.  I would like an auction house.  Here's hoping :)

End Game - There is no end game to speak of at this time in the beta.  They may be closing this off from us but at this time you don't have end game raid type content of any kind.  There are high level instances which are not very difficult but nothing like what would require a raid or a well designed group.

Overall - I enjoy the game.  Since I have returned they have fixed numerous problems and it looks as though we are getting a good response from the development team on timing and problem solution.  I have high hopes they will fix the balance issues soon and I think this will be a very fun game for some time.  It needs work, that's to say the least, but most games do.  I think with the right amount of time and support this could be a nice fun game for a long time to come.  If nothing else it is a wondeful change from fantasy games which I am quite frankly sick to death of.

If anyone is in the beta and would like to say high or flame me in person you can find me playing Vagabond.  Many first names 

Insert flames or comments here.  I might respond if I'm not busy irradicating Bane.

I'd hit it....

Simply cannot believe nobody out there is Supporting Octavius in this thread.    I played this game ages back when green and blue knew to fear the red haze of our beams and by the time they could think to run they were podding from the hail of missiles. 

Space game that required skill from FPS perspective with actual ingame physics along the lines of the better wing commander games and the oldschool starlancer games.

Jumpgate had it all before games like EvE even existed.  I think it's still superior to EvE since there is no twitch based play there.

Kudo's to NetDevil, hope you guys get this one out and I'll be looking to sign up on the RED side as soon as you send me my Beta Invite :)

Octavius - Peace through overwhelming firepower.

It simply wasn't fun after the nerfs.  They have intensionally made the game hardcore.  A good portion of the game is unfinished and not ready for a beta much less release.

If they allow you to play for free, by all means try it and see if you like it.  This game is not worth paying for.

I played Beta.  I played launch for two months until I threw my hands up in disgust.  It's not worth my time or my money.

Don't get sucked in by the fanboys blathering about anything.  Give it 3 to 6 months and this game will either be closed down or will have 1 server with hardly anyone on it.

Did you have several programs running in the background while downloading the patches?

Something I've noticed about NCSoft games, you need to have NOTHING running in the background while patching them.  Newer systems might not have this issue but my older one requires me to make sure I'm patching with nothing else on.

Turn off your virus software, turn off your music, don't surf the net etc.

Download with nothing else going and come back when it's finished.  I've noticed this works for me. 

Anything else usually gives me corrupt data from the patching program.  It's not a direct answer but it's a shot.  Try again.

The game is awsome with the new patches and updates.  Hope you enjoy it as much as I do.

I think I've decided to make a new character on WoW.  I just re-activated my account.  I read the posters who were talking about how much they hate reading about how WoW is successful with it's 8.5 MILLION SUBSCRIBERS OMGWTFBBQ LAZERS PEW PEW PEW!!!!1111!!11

And I decided to make another toon.  I'm going to make a gnome warrior because nobody has done that before.  I'm going to choose the female with pink pigtails because no man would play a female toon with pink pigtails because we all think alike and find the same things entertaining.

I think I'll look for a group of people that wanna make a guild that breaks the rules and name the guild "This Space For Rent" since that is original.  Then I'm going to group from level 1 in a game that is designed to allow you to solo through to level 70 because nobody wants a game you can solo.  Odd that it's an MMO with multiple people playing since you would only play solo in single player games never in an MMO how stupid those 8 MILLION PEOPLE must be for not realizing this and acting just like YOU since none of us are different in robotland.

Thanks for the ideas guys!!!

Time to have some fun in a REAL MMORPG like World of Warcraft!!! YAY!!

*sniff sniff....do you smell something?    *nah...probly just sarcasm

Not a joke.  I explained what I meant.  I'm glad you still like it, like I said it's a wonderful and beautiful game.  I don't like it.  I wont play a game that is a constant grind.  I work 50+ hour weeks and play games to wind down at the end of the day.  I want the game to be an escape from work.  Prior to the patch playing SoH was just that.  I love exploring new areas and taking my time...I could do that prior to the patches.  Now it's not, it's more like a 2nd job that I pay to do.  So I left.

I would have fixed the game by making the other classes more like the old Disciple.  In my opinion the Disciple wasn't broken, the other classes were.  Had they done this instead of what they did, I think their subscriber numbers would be rising through the roof because it was incredible fun back then.  It's not fun at all now to me and others.

I also said if you still play I hope you enjoy the game.  You obviously do enjoy it, many people liked EQ1...God knows why.   I did not.

That's my opinion.  Feel free to make me the center of your universe while debating it

I loved Vanguard.  I quit WoW to play it.  I thought the graphics were far superior, the playstyle was a blast, the game was new and fresh with a really excellent storyline.   Those cat people were just awsome.

The Disciple (pre-nerf) was an incredibly fun class to play.  Yes they did more damage than the other classes, yes they could heal really well, yes they could solo higher level mobs and yes they outshined a lot of what other classes could do.

All of this equalled one result......................they were exceptionally fun to play.

The patch changed this.  I don't like grinds.  I don't like games that feel like work.  I like "easy-mode".  I like playing support characters and I like playing front line tanks.  This was the perfect class as it could be both.  I couldn't main heal a group, but I could off-tank and support heal a group which was my purpose.  If things went bad I had a good chance of saving the team.  Now I can't get a group because the Disciple class can't do any of these things well.

I've seen a lot of people complain about the nerf.  I've seen more people abusively chastise them for saying they are not having fun.  Well I guess if you come on a forum and say anything you should be prepared for people who have nothing better to do than call you names and talk bad about you.  Or do like me and just ignore them.

Vanguard was really fun.  It's not fun for me now.  I cancelled my account and I am the one who is disappointed about this.  I loved the game.  I had found a replacement for WoW.  Vanguard was everything they had said it would be and I was so happy I couldn't even say how good things were.   Then they nerfed it and lost me as a customer.

I know I am not the only one.  I counted numerous other people who left when I did because the nerfs continued into many other classes making them not nearly as much fun either.

I feel sorry for Sigil because they made a really wonderfully fun game then ruined it by over-reacting and not thinking things through.  Whether you like WoW or not Blizzard has taught the world a lesson about MMORPG's that is this simple.

Casual Gamers define an MMO market.  Any game that wants to be very successful will cater to a Casual Game Style.

8.5 million subscribers don't lie.  That's a statistic that is too staggering to ignore.

I'll be waiting on the next Casual Friendly MMO, I hope W.A.R.  gets the picture and does it right.

We'll see.

Good luck with SoH if your still playing it, I hope it improves for you.  If you left it like I did, I hope we can find something as good as it used to be.

I Beta Tested SWG.  I played for about 6 months.  I quit because the game bored me to tears literally.  I have loved Star Wars for longer than I can remember.  I'm one of those old farts who has loved the idea of Jedi for 20+ years.  I remember Lucas with brown hair :)

Star Wars Galaxies gave me NOTHING....absolutely NOTHING that was enjoyable other than I could see my own wookie walk around boring landscapes and do the same boring repetitive tasks.

I completely 100% agree with the OP.   I play a game for storyline.  I'm one of the people who agrees with the idea, if the story is good, the graphics don't matter.  My first games were dos based so I really do mean this.  I loved the old dungeon crawls with a good story and what you did advanced the story and made you feel like you were doing something.

I also like World of Warcraft.  I know all the anti-fanboys out there are waiting to flame me for even stooping to say the name of that MMO but what it boils down to is that Blizzard got it right.  Sony got it WRONG.  Catering to Hardcore players and grinding gives you the polulation you can find on EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SoH....if you look at these games the population is about the same.

Now go look at the 8 million plus subscribers to WoW.   That's something you CANT argue with.  You can but you just look stupid by doing so.  They got it right.  This is not a debate.  Anyone using simple logic can see they got it right.  When the other game developers realize this they will begin to reap some of the benefits that Blizzard is enjoying right now.  I hope they do because WoW gets old after 2 years and I would like to see some new games. 

Saga of Heroes was great fun before the mass amounts of patches nerfing characters to the point where it's a Grind past level 5.  Grinding is fine as long as you feel like your accomplishing something.  You do in WoW.  You don't in the others.  Game over World FTW.

Do this and you'll get my money.  Make an EQ/SWG/SoH clone and you'll get my sympathy because you still don't have the idea.