WTB a crystal ball that will forsee the future of pending MMORPG titles. I hear the OP has a few in stock....

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Vocadi

This is not the case with an MMORPG. To me and IMO this is what makes a good MMORPG. Having a choice of content. And again, in my opinion choice of content means being able to explore new worlds, learn new crafting techniques, build structures, group with friends etc etc. If I want to spend time in a different world I want to do so in an Massively Multiplayer Online game. If I want to hack and slash, I will play Diablo 3. Choice of games is subjective obviously and my opinion is just one of many. 

All this does not take away from the fact that developers are pawning off their next big MMO as something groundbreaking when in fact they offer nothing new to the genre. Diablo 3 is a different genre and therefore not in the same MMO ballpark.

I agree MMORPGs don't always tend to be simple to learn and difficult to master.  And that's a fundamental flaw.

It's kinda funny that exploring a world, learning new crafting recipes, building structures, and grouping with friends are all things you can do in Diablo too.  You still have that choice of which content to engage in too (sometimes I craft, sometimes I explore entire maps, sometimes I dive straight for where I think the quest objective might be, sometimes I upgrade my blacksmith's hut.)

It's just not unnecessarily complex or inconvenient.

Diablo 3 has plenty of lessons for MMORPGs to learn from.  Those who learn the lessons will succeed better.  Those who don't will continue to have unnecessary obstructions to fun in their game.

 DIablo 3 gameplay is pretty predictable. Fight creatures, gain gear, rinse and repeat. Yes I can craft and group and explore to a degree, and just because these elements are preset in D3 and in MMO's does not make them equal. There are many ways to create a crafting framework in a game. I prefer something more complex that takes time to master. That may require the help of my friends or that may make me do some travelling in order to find my materials. Its the way that the game incorporates these elements that to me define a true MMO experience.

I would prefer a game world that offers longevity and depth of content. I want to play and log in to a game that gives me what I feel is a true MMO experience. I know that in 6 months from now what i can expect from Diablo 3. I know that the environments although randomly generated are still painted in a theme based on the act your playing in. This predictability is what takes away from that sense of wonder that a truly vast MMO world may offer.  I am not asking for an MMO with inconvenince. Balance is key.

To me this idea of incorporating more of D3 into an MMO is taking away the massive in MMO and catering to the masses. Theres alot of that going around lately, so if thats your thing..you likely won't have long to wait. Me, Im holding out for something that suites my MMORPG playstyle.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Vocadi

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by nariusseldon

It is not a MMO, but it captures the important part of the modern MMO gameplay better than any MMO (small group, instanced combat & progression).

That is exactly how I felt about GW1 back in 2005. Pick the good from MMOs, leave the shit out (the grind, the travel times and other timesinks, FFA PvP etc.) Good times...

The good times are back. With D3 being hugely successful (just reading it sold 3.5M copies on the FIRST DAY, EXCLUDING the 1.2M WOW annual pass and up to 6.3M (total player) in a week), more games like that probably will be made.

 

As much as I enjoy D3, much of what makes it enjoyable is the lack of depth and the ease at which a player can jump in and get to it so to speak. An MMORPG is not in the same ballpark as D3 in the sense that Diablo has a very basic concept, is user friendly and can be played with success for 30 mins or 4 hours.  

You obviously have not finished INFERNO mode. People are trying many builds, with much optimization (of gear) before some parts of INFERNO mode is even possible. A perfect example of easy to get into (normal mode), hard to master. See all the QQing about how difficult it is on the official forum.

I would say a MMO should be the same .. plus players need to be able to achieve something in 30 min. No one has time for 4 hour sessions all the time.

To me, a good MMO has content that requires some time to be spent. Travelling should be included as part of the experience. I don't want to log in and just grind constantly. Maybe I want to explore, group, craft, build. These are things that feel more substantial then the pure hack and slash that Diablo 3 offers and the creative use of this content driven type of MMO is whats been lacking imo.

No. Games should be required a commitment like a marriage. Travelling is never a popular core gameplay element, even for MMOs. For the 4 things you talk about, you can group (and finding group is EASY) in Diablo 3. Most MMOs are hack-n-slash anyway. May as well do it well, and don't focus on the unnecessary elements.

 

 

The fact that you can spend however much time you wish in Diablo 3 and still achieve somthing, makes this a user friendly game. Im not talking about skill required or character builds or anything else. Im just stating that a player who has feasably never played this type of genre before can pick up D3 and understand the general concept very quickly.

This is not the case with an MMORPG. To me and IMO this is what makes a good MMORPG. Having a choice of content. And again, in my opinion choice of content means being able to explore new worlds, learn new crafting techniques, build structures, group with friends etc etc. If I want to spend time in a different world I want to do so in an Massively Multiplayer Online game. If I want to hack and slash, I will play Diablo 3. Choice of games is subjective obviously and my opinion is just one of many. 

All this does not take away from the fact that developers are pawning off their next big MMO as something groundbreaking when in fact they offer nothing new to the genre. Diablo 3 is a different genre and therefore not in the same MMO ballpark.

Originally posted by Drokar

 

I also notice gamers seem to bash games simply because of the lack of innovation.  This is what I just do not get.  These are games, they are not designed to replace your life.  They will all revolve around killing monsters, doing quests, PVP in some form or another - that's it... it will never get any better.  The graphics will never replace the real world outside.  

 

And why shouldn't I be dissatisfied that developers bring nothing unique, innovative and different to the gaming table? I am a customer, a gamer. It is the gamer's and the dollars they bring that are targeted. I would rather play a game then go to a movie, this is my choice of entertainment.

The basic concept of an MMORPG is not in question. But why does this concept  have to follow along the same track as their predecessors? Why are we seeing the same focus on content in these highly marketed, big name games?

The problem is, big name developers have the resources to develop and market to the masses, to create and sell the hype and to cater to subscription numbers not depth of content. WoW is not to blame, it is a fine game in its own right and was different when it was first released in comparison to other online games at the that time. It implemented fresh and new ideas. So why now, when developers have all the more money to back these online projects, do we have regurgitated content and second hand ideas?

This is why I bash games based on lack of innovation. Not because my life revolves around MMO's but because I believe that they are capable of so much more.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by nariusseldon

It is not a MMO, but it captures the important part of the modern MMO gameplay better than any MMO (small group, instanced combat & progression).

That is exactly how I felt about GW1 back in 2005. Pick the good from MMOs, leave the shit out (the grind, the travel times and other timesinks, FFA PvP etc.) Good times...

The good times are back. With D3 being hugely successful (just reading it sold 3.5M copies on the FIRST DAY, EXCLUDING the 1.2M WOW annual pass and up to 6.3M (total player) in a week), more games like that probably will be made.

 

As much as I enjoy D3, much of what makes it enjoyable is the lack of depth and the ease at which a player can jump in and get to it so to speak. An MMORPG is not in the same ballpark as D3 in the sense that Diablo has a very basic concept, is user friendly and can be played with success for 30 mins or 4 hours.  

To me, a good MMO has content that requires some time to be spent. Travelling should be included as part of the experience. I don't want to log in and just grind constantly. Maybe I want to explore, group, craft, build. These are things that feel more substantial then the pure hack and slash that Diablo 3 offers and the creative use of this content driven type of MMO is whats been lacking imo.

Originally posted by neonwire

Originally posted by Vocadi

Originally posted by doldid
Diablo 3 has no 25 man raids, wow is better

Ehhh??  The entire game is one huge raid...

It's a joke post. The OP is making these threads in the forums for every game

It was quite funny. Im just going to head back to my coffee now..

Originally posted by doldid
Diablo 3 has no 25 man raids, wow is better

Ehhh??  The entire game is one huge raid...

Originally posted by Axehilt

There's a ton of innovative titles out there if you want innovation.  You just have to go play them, and not expect the innovation to come in the form of a giant super-expensive AAA MMORPG (because that's a ridiculous expectation.)

This is absolutely the case. In fact http://www.kickstarter.com/discover/categories/games showcases alot of these non mainstream innovative developers and is a fantastic way for gamers and creators to get what they want.

My problem is how insidious and deceptive the MMO market has become. That these AAA developers are garnering the most attention, all for subpar content and filler.

When hollywood movies flop, the boxoffice speaks for itself. This really needs to crossover to the gaming market.

Originally posted by Quirhid

What the hell are you on about? Skyrim is the same-old same-old Elder Scrolls. Its in a pretty wrapper and not much else. Replace the dragons with Oblivion gates and it is quite similar to Oblivion.

When you see a themepark MMO you hurry to call it a WoW-clone when the next Elder Scrolls game comes out "Oh my god its totally different!". You are such hypocrites.

Who are you referring to? When I posted the link in my original topic for Skyrim online I did this to make a point. That players are able to customize something and change it outside of how the developers originally intended. In this way, this puts choice back into the players hands.

I did not start this discussion to state how deviated from the original elderscrolls the single player game Skyrim has become. I have very definite views on this and in fact prefer Morrowind personally. I think you missed the mark on this one as thats not what this post is about.

Thanks for all this very helpful info guys. I am just getting into the monk and so far LOVE the fast paced carnage they are capable of. Since I am still in nub territory its nice to get some solid info from other players.  I kind of figured attack speed might be the way to go and this solidified it.

Thank you again! :D

BTW anyone have any ideas graphically what the skill wave of light represents? To me it looks like a giant cylinder or bell. Its a great skill but somehow looks nothing like its description.

Originally posted by Valentina

SWTOR isn't 'dead'. At least not yet, and probably won't be for a long time, however they're rapidly waning and I don't quite understand *why*. I've read peoples opinions on this matter and honestly so many of them make 0 sense and seem rather baseless.

 

I think part of what's happening here is a combination of luck, bad press, and the general mmo community.

 

SW:TOR has so many great qualities to it, yet it's picked apart relentlessly by people who've never really PLAYED the game. People have been waiting in such eager anticipation for the "next big release" for this genre, that I honestly believe ANY game that had come out with such a heavy spotlight on it would of been facing this. If GW2 had come out first, it would of been picked apart relentlessly, faced bad press and generally just fallen apart so to speak.

The truth is, SW:TOR is so much better right out the gate than ANY mmo release over the last 5 or 6 years has been. It has leagues more content than other games have had,  and in reality it doesn't have many bugs. I've almost come to the conclusion that what a lot of this MMO community wants out of a game is still very simplistic and boring. I think people would still rather have a game that's pretty vapid and based more on numbers, shallow character building, and would rather still be delusional about their competitiveness in PvP,  than to have a game that has a very strong emphesis on immerssive properties such as story, choice, and a relatively customized experience based off those things. I'd dare say that it's like many people weren't *ready* for this type of stuff yet.

I know I'll get flamed endlessly, and it's sad that I can genuinely expect that from this community but it will just further confirm my beliefs about the whole thing. I find it really depressing, and disappointing that really it's the people in the MMO community that are arrogant, and not the developers as much as you would like to think. I'm over blaming every little thing on developers instead of the community, when many things that happen with these games are based off of communities and there's only so much you can do to mitigate it. I never was a big Star Wars fan, and I never really kept a close eye on this game until maybe a year and a half before it came out...But when i got it I found myself experiencing what I've wanted so badly in this genre for a long time and now I have it, and people are ruining it for me and because of that I'll probably have to end up playing boring, run of the mill, textbox MMO's for the next 5 or 10 years if I decide to follow the genre at all anymore.

Usually flaming occurs when you generalize or negatively lump a populace into a specific group... Your not the only person who enjoyed SWTOR and so good for you. There are a number of threads and subscibers on these forums who indicated they like the game. There's nothing wrong with having an opinion different then someone else.

I must say I am confused on your statement that the mmo community wants a simplistic, vapid game based on numbers and character building instead of immersion. In my opinion a true feeling of immersion is when a game hits on all the things that feel complex and deep. Character choices, exciting gameworlds with ample opportunity to explore, quests which make me feel like I truly am a player in a community, not another avatar running back and forth collecting egg sacks.

Unfotunately I think you may have opened yourself up for a few heated responses because it seems you may have negatively generalized the posters on this website...

Its sad. Beta's used to be about fine tuning and improving your product wether it be content or coding. Now they its just another marketing ploy. My husband was in the SWTOR early beta  (July 2011 round there). He provided alot of feedback on content and possible future foibles. In fact he along with alot of other testers were very active on several hot issues on the official forums

Nothing that was advocated for change was implemented. Obviously by the time beta rolls around, developers already know what they are keeping and are only looking for certain things.  A beta now is just a glorified demo.

If they had listened to us peon's from the top of their high horses, they might just have been able to salvage another year or more of solid gaming and subscriber numbers instead of the joke TOR has turned into.

Originally posted by Avarix

I think it's because developers stopped trying to be inovative. They see the tried and true models and continue the same trend.

A lot of people actually do vote with their wallets but there is a disconnect here. World of Warcraft brought in millions of people into the genre. This changed a couple things.

Those millions will keep hyping and jumping to the next clone, hoping for the same feeling/experience as WoW without doing any research. This encourages developers to continually push out sub-par games since they are making money from it. This isn't going to change until the majority of people that were brought into the fold by World of Warcraft realize they simply do not like MMORPGs, just WoW and no one does WoW like WoW itself.

So now we have the millions of people trying to repeat WoW all over again, and a much smaller number trying to play original MMORPGs. This is why there is such a large turn-over of subscribers after a couple months on most new games. Until those millions give up and change to thousands, the genre will continue moving in the same direction it has been going for quite a while now, trying to repeat the anomaly that is World of Warcraft.

I'm not asking for much, just make me feel something when I get into your game that makes me want to stay, not roll my eyes. Most of this is subjective, and all of it is only my opinion. Take it as you will.

 

Indeed, however I still feel like there are alot more people than even a year ago who can see through the smoke and mirrors. Surely even those who are looking for a WoW clone can see when they are being fed filler.  Shouldn't this alone be enough to cause a bit of a gaming revolt? 

Is it really that acceptable for the majority, the alleged 1.3 millions to be fed a line and to consume it every time? Look at the articles that gaming websites and magazines (and mainstream media) are writing recently.  They are also questioning the lack of content and the complete and utter defiance in brining something new to the table. The offending developers are getting some negative feedback... so the word is out so to speak.

Originally posted by porkybuns

Oh thanks we didn't know about that ability customization.

 

As for how far we played, we feel that's the crux. We paid 60$ for the game, and we've been told it gets harder by act III? So if the game has 4 acts that means we have to play through 50% of it to get to the hard part. We aren't impressed by that.

I don't know, my wife and I have a hard time justifying play through it to level or act x to get difficulty y for 60$.

This game is worth about 30-40$.

Why couldn't we set the difficulty level at the start instead?

As far as I remember, none of the Diablo games allowed you to set the difficulty from the start. Replaying the content at ramped up difficutly is what makes Diablo the hack and slash that it is. Its about working your way up the ladder and beefing up your epeen as you go.

Sorry you feel that it was a waste however, thats a bummer. 

Originally posted by porkybuns

1b. Skill switcher - Sorry this didn't fly well either. We have to open up a window to switch skills and select a new one. We don't have a box where we could put them on hot keys. "Why can't I just put my skills in some bar" she said.

Regarding this, I am not entirely certain what your going for here but there is something called elective mode in the gameplay options that allows you to customize the hotkeys for your skills. If you select this then open your skills menu you are able to choose which skills you want as primary, secondary , defensive etc.  

As far as the game being too easy, how far in have you played? In D2 normal mode was generally pretty basic, the real excitement came from the harder difficulty play throughs.

I have to say, im not on board with the OP. It seems like a sellout to assume that the decline in quality games is due to graphic requirements. I can't think of any MMO's released in the last two years other than Tera that had nice looking 2012 compatible graphics. 

In fact most of the games I see are underpar when it comes to graphics. Take SWTOR. The graphics are nice in their own way. There is a definite style and theme, they can be maxed out and still look simple or played at minimal specs and be servicable.

Graphics are not the problem with developers. Its greed all the way. Simplify gameplay and content in order to appeal to a broader range of gamers. Whoever pulls the most numbers wins.  So we end up with lifeless games and rehashed content.  This is the issue, not graphics.

Originally posted by WhiteLantern

The irony of the title made me think this was going to be a troll thread.

 

Hehe, I admit this caught me too.  I only got the game yesterday and played for a few hours. So far so good!  Perhaps it was just my outlook and that I didn't have any crazy expectations (and yes I played both 1 and 2). I just take D3 at face value and enjoy it for what it is, a good old dungeon romp with satisfying combat and classes.

Sigh, here goes my carpal tunnel....

Originally posted by galphar

Here's a look into the future on the MMORPG.com forums:

1 year from now " WTH did Anet do? they f****ed  up this game so bad"

2 years from now "WTH did Blizzaed do? they f***ed up this game so bad"

3 years from now " WTH did (insert dev here) do? They f***ed up this game so bad"

 

Do you see the trend? No matter what game comes out, the forums on this site will continue to be filled with haters that think the best years of MMOs were 10 years ago.  If you think all these new/current games suck so much, create your own MMO and then let us critisize it.

On a public forum, it is unacceptable to voice an opinion?  With a thread title such as this, you must have had some inkling of what you would find in here? 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a consumer having a strong opinion on something they disagree with. We spend our money and time on these games and in turn expect a modicum of content in return. For a developer to undermine and ignore a player base/tester and their suggestions..this is pathetic.  

This is an interesting topic and everyone has very valid points. I feel that there definitely needs to be a balance. Exploration and a sense of wonder at a new environment can only go so far.

For example, you go on a trek up a mountain path that could take 45 mins in real time but now your in the middle of no where, your phone is ringing, dinner is ready, dog has to pee whatever and you have to log out.

Was there a sense of acomplishment for that 45 minute walk? Did you find any cool creatures or hidden treasures. Did you see a nifty old ruin that needs to be explored later on? These are all things that need to be considered. Because just walking or travelling long distances to get from point A to point B with few breadcrumbs in between can get old fast.

I recently installed EQ when it went free to play. Decided to check out Highpass hold, so I ran from Qeynos. I forgot how long it actually took to travel on foot anywhere. Almost two hours later I reached my destination. Back in the day, I don't remember the huge zones and all the travelling to be a big deal and in fact I recalled the  zones fondly in EQ. But times have changed for me and I no longer have time to spend hightailing it from here to yonder. 

So, I guess really my point in this is exploration is key, but how its implemented is even more important. Just as in grinding a level fighting mobs is a reward for that time spent, so to must there be equal and tangible reward for time spent travelling and exploring. I feel that the act in itself cannot sustain interest.