Originally posted by ArEf

So, basically, we all have to hope for TOR to fail horribly in order to get sandbox MMOs?

 Nope, not we all. I don't know why people think that a majority of gamers want sandboxes.

I want a hybrid, a skill based MMORPG with plenty of lore/story, quests, rewards/achievement.

Laptop-

MMORPG's: DDO (f2P), LoTRO (lifer),  GW, FFXIV (meh, gift)

RPG's: NwN (all content/expansions), NwN2 (all content/expansions), KoToR, Hellgate London, DA:O, DAO:Awakenings, DA2, Drakensang,  The Witcher.

Desktop-

MMORPG's: LoTRO, Allods (niece plays), Wizards 101 (niece plays)

RPG's: Baldur's Gate, ESIII:Morrowind

The character development choices are fine for me, and as far as having been done before, yes many single player RPG's have utilized this, but I can't think of one MMORPG that has.

As for the art in the 'cinematics', I think it is fine as is. I am not so shallow that I need high end graphical cut scenes in all of my games. As long as the game is enjoyable, they can use their art in whatever way they feel.

As for entry into the world and personal story, it's too soon to tell how that's going to play out, but if I recall correctly that all takes place in your own instance, and not shared with other players so I don't understand the complaint of it being an empty world or it being linear for that matter... Again it's way too soon to tell how much branching off and choices you will have in your personal story.

I don't undersand your comments about the 'hi level'   err high level thief. His point about dodging was that the thief was taking a lot of damage and that the player has the ability to dodge the enemies attacks. I don't understand how you are saying that comment is pointless when the thief isn't missing. The thiefs attacks not missing the enemy has no bearing on that fact that just standing there the thief was taking damage.

Your thread has done nothing to lessen my interest in this game. I'm still going to buy this game, you are more than welcome to move along if it isn't your cup of tea.

Originally posted by Mad+Dog

One thing they did wrong.

 

TAB 123... For the love of god this is soooooooooooooo old now.

 

 I just don't know what alternative that players that continue to gripe about this thinks that there is? clickity click click, clickity click click of the mouse to both target, and then to swing, fire?  How innovative?! *sarcasm off*

2 posts, both in this thread. I'm just sayin.

I didn't purchase this game,but it was given to me. I've had it since January and haven't really touched it because it doesn't seem to have changed all that much.

The next update, however, it does seem like will give some changes that might be worth another try. But I don't know when that will be.

Originally posted by supbro

We all saw how WAR's PQ's were all empty after a month. Then the game nosedived.

 

I mean how are rifts different to WAR public quests?

 They are quite different. There's no object to Rifts/invasions other than kill the baddies and prevent them from wreaking havoc.

What I remember of some of the PQ's in WAR is that they were story/quest driven and they had more to do than just killing mobs.

The graphics are better than most MMO's out there, save for AOC.

The combat is par for the course, granted you always have a string of attacks that you use, in a particular order almost every time, but lets face it in most action type combat games you do as well. And I venture to say that anyone that says they don't have a tendency to use certain attacks and skills in a specific order in action games are flat out lying. It's in our nature to find something that works and stick with it. So the combat argument applied to most MMORPG's is wearing thin on me.

The quests being linear, although may be true, its your own fault for taking them. Granted I only hit 20 during the betas, but I'd wager if you wanted to you could grind your way through all the different zones and not need to take all of the linear quests.

Now maybe you do have to take a quest chain to get into certain dungeon instances, but so what?, it's their game and their rules. I'm tired of players crying "I can't do what I want, be what I want, go where I want to when I want to", all these adults sound like whiney little children, wah wah wah... "If I can't play how I want to play, by my own rules, then I'm going to throw a fit and tell everyone the game sucks". Don't get me wrong, I don't like the game for my own reasons but it's not because of combat and linear quests.

I have one question in regards to this genre and those that complain about quests and story,  do you see RPG at the end of MMORPG? I've never played a PnP or console RPG that didn't have a storyline where you needed to go and do certain things to advance the plot. And even when players in PnP stray, the DM always manages to get the story turned back in the right direction to complete the module, campaign, quest etc.

Quite simply, Azeroth, Middle Earth, Telara, etc isn't a world that YOU created, you didn't lay the foundation, you don't get to make the rules. You make the choice to purchase the game, you make the choice to play the game, and granted you have the right to make suggestions, but at the end of the day the game is not your baby and regardless of your input may not be 'raised' the way you want it to be.

With that said, I'm not defending Rift, I didn't buy it, I don't plan to buy it, because it's not my cup of tea.

I do hope that all of those that are unhappy with 'themepark' mmoRPG's, eventually get their open ended, questless, or sandbox MMO that they have been craving.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Emeraq

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Emeraq

Originally posted by gestalt11

But when you look at an individual rift its basically a Warhammer public quest, except that its the same public quest over and over.  I was hoping a rift was a bit more like an invasion rather than just some mobs standing around like any other area. 

 This sums it up for me for both rifts and invasions, and is why I find it boring.

Well, in one of the betas (and I hope they didn't change this) one of the invasions went right into that magic college on the guardian side and that area was shut down until the players finally rallied.

One's mileage may vary but I felt that was a bit like an invasion.

 But what happens when low level characters are few and far between, say 8 mos down the road. If they go to, like I believe they will, random pre-progammed events, things like that would make the game unplayable for new players and rerolled characters.

this has actually been discussed. The rifts and invasions scale to people in the area.

So as an example, over the weekend, I duoed a Rift with with a Bard that was already there. We completely took it. Was fun and a bit dicey but we did it.

I don't see any reason why an area can't be taken and eventually a few new, lower lvl players can take it. To that end, the developers already said that lower lvl areas would have higher lvl players because they would put higher level content there.

 

So it could work out well. But we will have to see.

 I guess it depends on how they determine what an 'area' is. I was on in beta three or four, and a rift spawned... I saw no one else in the area, I was the only person and the critters were insanely overpowered (mainly the elite was overpowered, I think I was a level 8 and it was a 15).

Not on my own, nor with one or two others would I have stood a chance. Needless to say I was tragetted and died and waited there a bit to see if anyone would come help, etc before respawning and didn't see anyone come to fight off that particular rift....

So, I'm curious just how large of an area their programming 'scans/sweep' for players (I'm not sure how they program it) to determine spawn level, size, etc.

Originally posted by wallet113

eh...

 What happened to your post? You mentioned 10 man rifts and anyone can help but the raid group that opens it gets the epic loot, and those that helped individually got regular loot...

I was going to say that seems flawed IF/When the individual(s) not part of the raid scores the higher in the scoring system than the 'raiders'

Hopefully it doesn't work like that.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Emeraq

Originally posted by gestalt11

But when you look at an individual rift its basically a Warhammer public quest, except that its the same public quest over and over.  I was hoping a rift was a bit more like an invasion rather than just some mobs standing around like any other area. 

 This sums it up for me for both rifts and invasions, and is why I find it boring.

Well, in one of the betas (and I hope they didn't change this) one of the invasions went right into that magic college on the guardian side and that area was shut down until the players finally rallied.

One's mileage may vary but I felt that was a bit like an invasion.

 But what happens when low level characters are few and far between, say 8 mos down the road. If they go to, like I believe they will, random pre-progammed events, things like that would make the game unplayable for new players and rerolled characters.

Originally posted by gestalt11

But when you look at an individual rift its basically a Warhammer public quest, except that its the same public quest over and over.  I was hoping a rift was a bit more like an invasion rather than just some mobs standing around like any other area. 

 This sums it up for me for both rifts and invasions, and is why I find it boring.

Originally posted by SBE1

Another "way back" article.  Things are slow in the current MMO world.

 Yes indeed, they are slow. But in this case, if this game were to be revived I would play it today even with the dated graphics.

The look back was worth it, and forces those that wanted this game to think "What could have been"

Originally posted by Ruinal

Wasn't there talk of reviving this title at some point? Likewise I was gutted when I heard they cancelled the project as active combat would have really advanced the whole genre at that point in time. They killed the game because they felt it would take players away from UO, not realising they'd have created a much bigger market for themselves with more people tempted to play mmos.

 

In my opinion they should have gone the GW route, pay for the box, expansions, further content etc, but F2P online. This would have kept their precious UO subs up.

This and Wish were two that I was really looking forward to. Shame they never saw the light of day.

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by Emeraq

I simply can't play anymore.... ever again. Not my cup of tea.

Can and wont are 2 very different things.

 True, and that would apply to the OP as well. It's open beta after all, so he could in fact play.

Originally posted by jf1ve

Originally posted by Emeraq

Originally posted by SnarkRitter

Originally posted by Emeraq

I find it odd that the sandbox community that doesn't need 'content' aren't playing this game. Maybe sandboxers aren't truly looking for sandbox games with no handholding after all?

Sandboxers don't need developer made contents, that's true. However, we need tools to make our own content. And FF XIV lacks both tools and content, that is the reason nobody, even sandboxers are looking at it. If sandboxers aren't looking for sandbox games with no handholding then EVE Online wouldn't have survived and prospered. Oh and FF XIV is not a sandbox MMORPG, it's a themepark MMORPG like the the likes of WoW, LOTRO,EQ,etc...., get your shit straight before posting bullshit.

 Calm down skippy.

The intention of the game may be for it to be themepark, but with lack of content the game does not feel like a themepark. Just because it has cut scenese and guildleves, and it does not appear to me to hold your hand like a theme park.  What I've played of the game, in it's current form this stage with little to no content it feels open, like a sandbox, for you to do what you want.

And as for 'tools' to make your own content, what are you talking about? If by 'tools' you mean other sandbox gamers your probably right there. There aren't enough sandboxer 'tools' playing the game.

The only 'tools' UO players ever needed was imagination. Crafting, and housing are not 'tools'

 If it's open PvP you are referring to as a tool, then are sanboxers really looking for an open ended game, or do they just need to go play a PvP centric game with no handholding.

Sandbox players are some of the most intelligent gamers that exist. Eve online used to have(if it still doesn't) a large number of real-life logistics professionals, etc... I myself am a Science major and I love sandboxes done right. They're games with so much complexity built in you could just do your own thing... Some people like that. Ever played X3TC? Amazing sandbox game, even if its also a "space sim". FFXIV is not a sandbox in the slightest, you can't really do anything that hasn't been specifically planned by the devs. FFXI has so much content you could call it a sandbox, but its not, because of the level limitations to get anything done, which requires 34983493 hours of grinding with a team(even if you can solo now its a bit ridiculous). This game was made to be played by casual people, and it wasnt planned well at all.

 

I'm a sandbox player, but at the moment I don't have the time nor a sandbox game to play(I've played them, and I'm waiting for another big one). I just play DCUO, because it was properly made for the person who only has an hour or two. Anywho, I think you calling sandbox players tools was a personal attack against that guy, but I have to say its a bit wrong. Sandbox players like to solo as much, if not more than interact with others. The explaination is that we(sandbox players) don't need the constant interaction with people, but we enjoy meeting people in a "I have something for you, you have something for me" way, kind of like a traveling merchant. Just grouping up to kill a mob over and over is not the sandboxer way.

 My post was not an attack on intellect of one type of player versus another, IE Themepark VS sandbox.

It wasn't a personal attack directed specifically at the previous poster either. I suppose you can view it was as much of a personal attack as him calling my opinion of a game, that lacks content, a sandbox, bullshit. (I posted it as a play on the word tool)

My point in my previous post was that's how I view that particular group of MMO's (sandboxes), games that have little to no actual content, where gamers basically get together and do nothing but grind stats, while 'pretending' they aren't killing the same mob types repeatedly but are on their own quests and story. Story of their own 'creation' without programmer design/purpose (ie content/quests/lore)

I've played UO, played it for a couple of years in fact, and I am not a role player, nor a PVPer. I never understood the point of stat grinding and using the game as a chat interface to create your own 'story' and quests just because there weren't any.

I was one that loved when games like WoW and Guild Wars, and LOTRO came out. I felt that someone finally had put traditional PC and console style RPG quest and story into an MMO. I felt that when these games started coming out was when game makers actually started putting real work into their product to tell a story, provide their own reason for killing creatures. They didn't just slap some zones together, plop some spawn points for mobs and resources and say "here you go kill, harvest and build, and do it without us having any input on story quests etc in our own world". I've always viewed sandbox games as lazy design.

Back on topic, about my FFXIV sandbox comment. Admittedly I haven't played that far into FFXIV, because there's practically nothing to do. But when I did play I didn't feel like I could only do what the devs wanted me to do, for the main reason being that I couldn't even figure out WHAT the hell, if anything, it was the devs wanted me to do. The quests didn't seem restrictive at all. I viewed the quests as basically only being a small tutorial that showed me each of the guilds, introduced me to some characters, introduced guildeleves etc, and then bam nothing. I wasn't even 15 levels in and there I was with no quests, nothing suggesting to me me what to do next nor where to go, or even at what level I might get something else to do. This is why I felt the game seemed open like a sandbox.

Originally posted by SnarkRitter

Originally posted by Emeraq

I find it odd that the sandbox community that doesn't need 'content' aren't playing this game. Maybe sandboxers aren't truly looking for sandbox games with no handholding after all?

Sandboxers don't need developer made contents, that's true. However, we need tools to make our own content. And FF XIV lacks both tools and content, that is the reason nobody, even sandboxers are looking at it. If sandboxers aren't looking for sandbox games with no handholding then EVE Online wouldn't have survived and prospered. Oh and FF XIV is not a sandbox MMORPG, it's a themepark MMORPG like the the likes of WoW, LOTRO,EQ,etc...., get your shit straight before posting bullshit.

 Calm down skippy.

The intention of the game may be for it to be themepark, but with lack of content the game does not feel like a themepark. Just because it has cut scenese and guildleves, and it does not appear to me to hold your hand like a theme park.  What I've played of the game, in it's current form this stage with little to no content it feels open, like a sandbox, for you to do what you want.

And as for 'tools' to make your own content, what are you talking about? If by 'tools' you mean other sandbox gamers your probably right there. There aren't enough sandboxer 'tools' playing the game.

The only 'tools' UO players ever needed was imagination. Crafting, and housing are not 'tools'

 If it's open PvP you are referring to as a tool, then are sanboxers really looking for an open ended game, or do they just need to go play a PvP centric game with no handholding.

I simply can't play anymore.... ever again. Not my cup of tea.

Originally posted by Xzen

The population on Mysidia is active but I'm not sure about the others. I've notice a big surge in the population over the last 2 weeks. Possibly due to people giving it a shot now that it's playable. My only warning is that it still lacks content. If you dont want to grind or do Leves over and over again you might want to wait for a patch with content.

 This^ 

I log in, realize there's still no game here, and log out without having really played the game. It's a shame really, such a beautiful looking world (for the most part, zones are rather poorly designed) and little content to make it playable.

I find it odd that the sandbox community that doesn't need 'content' aren't playing this game. Maybe sandboxers aren't truly looking for sandbox games with no handholding after all?