Just when you thought the horse was finally dead enough... someone had to start beating it again.

It's obvious the people that hate the game design are going to hate the game. The people that are okay with the design are going to be okay with it.

Do we really need any more articles about this subject?

I really wish that both sides could get exactly what they want, but this is reality and it's just simply not goting to happen. You can't please everyone.

Is Zenimax making a mistake with the crowd it chose to try to please? Maybe... We will just have to wait and see. If it fails, all the TES fanatics can come here and cry from the mountain tops... "I TOLD YOU SO ! " If it's a success, well, the fanatics will still complain. I know I would if I were that invested in something. But when it comes down to it... It's just a damn game.

Originally posted by jtcgs

Originally posted by Thandras

 

I hope the game does well personally. I too am a huge TES fan and have been since Arena. However, I also am a huge DAOC fan so my expectations probably differ from one who is just a TES fan. None the less, I will try the game. If I like it, I will keep playing it. If I don't, I won't. I simply don't play games that I don't like. Example: Neverwinter. I LOVED Neverwinter nights but I don't really care for it's MMO implentation. So, I'm not going to buy it.

 Shortened your quote of my quote just for you, since you didnt seem to get that far.

Really FUNNY thing about it all is the amount of threads that got started the day of, and the day after they announced they made it so the other factions lands opened up and you could play in an instanced version of them, with a TON of DaoC fans suddenly crying about how their faction pride is now dead and the game is for carebears. The same people defending the game blindly from those complaining against it for months prior.

Its simple, DaoC fans are on board because they want DaoC...every single person complaining about the structure either never played DaoC or feels that the game doesnt need DaoC limiations because it doesnt fit the setting.

DaoC = 250k players.

Everyone else = over 20 million MMORPG and TES players. Who is their target? If its DaoC fans they should just say the game isnt really TES, just had to do it for hopes of more money by the corporation that owns them...otherwise, they need to address the issues with those that are going to continue to rip this thing to pieces and lessen the amount of people they can fool with their hype by pointing out the lies, and crazy idea that the game HAD to be made this way because its an MMO.

I'm not one to pull figures out of my sphincter and I don't have the desire to research your 20 million TES players who are complaining. You acutally have proof that there are 20 million individuals that have complained? If you do, you have way too much free time on your hands :)  (just hacking on ya)

People who don't like the game have every right not like it and to voice their opinion. But, those who do like it have those same rights, no matter what their reasoning.

I'm not defending the game. Hell, I've not even tried it. So,  I don't have anything but hearsay to formulate an opinion. I tend to like to form my opinions on my own. Not let media or others sway me.

I'm not attacking your disdain for the game either. It just seems like you and others are fighting a losing battle trying to get the entire game reworked this far into development. Reminds me of Don Quixote. If you, however, find success in your attempts to get the game changed to how you want it, I hope the old addage doesn't bite you on the proverbial ass. "Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it.". (paraphrase)

Originally posted by jtcgs

Originally posted by MikeB

I saw all the same stuff we covered extensively last week, so I didn't want to rehash it. It was the same build. Going into this I had one real goal in mind: find out if TESO actually felt Elder Scrolls. To me, it doesn't matter what the game is like if they boned this up. They would be missing the point. People are excited because they want to play Elder Scrolls...online! If it was just a standard MMO with an ES skin it would be a bust and so that's really what I wanted to find out.

 

You can run around and pretty much do what you want. The character creation is just as deep (if not deeper) than the singleplayer titles. The customization is too (skills, weapons and such). And the combat really embodies the spirit of Elder Scrolls combat. However, the whole package doesn't feel as good as say, Skyrim, but as I noted in the article, that's OK. There's no way it could have been.

 

No one is paying me, or us, for anything. Feel free to discuss the article, but let's leave the conspiracy theories at the door. I don't know if ESO will pan out to be an awesome game in the end -- but I do feel that they're doing an admirable job on geting the 'Elder Scrolls feel' right based on what I played at PAX, and that really frees up the rest of the stuff to even matter for me.  That's what the purpose of this article was. We've got tons of straight information coverage for you to pore over and it's all from the build shown on the floor.

 If that is the case, then this game cant be like TES.

Both you and Zenimax havent actually delt with the REASONS legions of TES fans are in an uproar. Adding 1st person does not add to it being like TES...how many other MMOs have that? a ton...they are not like TES.

The REASONS need to be addressed, just "saying" it feels like it, does nothing to address the issues. You are in a postion to bring these things to them, to REPRESENT the community.

The issues being spoken about on virtually every single TES website, from the offical site, the fan sites and the modding sites is simple.

Race/faction locks. closed faction lands (no, allowing us to go there at 50 to play in an instanced version is not opening them). PvP in an invisible closed off neverland with no threat to homelands. funneled level content all forcing everyone to the same place. Pretty elves. Lore changed to fit DaoC style gameplay...and now, limited crafting where you can only master 2 or be bad at it all...as well as the possibilty that skill points are limited allowing for forced class structuring via FotM for best outcomes(a question left unasked when reporting on the topic).

None of these things are TES, they (most) are DaoC design structures that did not need to be used as there are OPEN WORLD MMOs with OPEN RACE CHOICES and OPEN FACTION CHIOCES even with the ability to switch after character creation as well as MMOS that allow full training in ALL crafting skills to the max, and yes, we have had an MMO with NO LEVELS as well and now we have an MMO that scales the player to the content. We all know there sure are MMOs out there that doesnt place PvP in some safe zone while trying to tell us the WORLD is at WAR but allow us to bring that war to our enemies doorsteps (No I dont mean FFA PvP).

By using designs we know are out there that FIT TES  there would be no need for changes to the lore nor for some reason getting rid of alien looking elves which I still cannot figure out for the life of me.

Its been said before, it will be said again, if this game WAS LIKE TES that would mean if it had DIFFERENT skins and npc/places names people would say the game is a ripoff of TES...which is NOT the case because its a ripoff of DaoC and is not reminiscent of TES.

Personally, I would LOVE for the game to be like TES. I am not against it just to be against it...but if this is DaoC in a TES package, I am going to be pissed because I am a massive TES fan that KNOWS TES can be made into an MMO and still be what TES is. There is NO NEED to make such massive sacrifices that vastly limits gameplay. So tell me, HOW is this game so much like TES with what has been released the last few weeks that takes away the communities ACTUAL ISSUES with the game?

Man, this game really seems to have gotten you upset. I believe if I were you that I would just cut my losses and just stop following it all. It's obvious you hate it, despite the fact it's not been released yet. I really don't see the reason you keep posting the same rhetoric, unless it's just to troll. I seriously doubt that the team making the game is going to scrap everything and start over due to finanical issues (investors).I would imagine trying to justify a move like that would be a nightmare. It would probably lead to loss of funding and the closure of development.

I'm making an assumption here ( I know, I know), but I figure you and many like you would reply "Good. If they can't make it right then it shouldn't be made at all. Somebody else can make it right" The odds of another company assuming the risk of a game that failed to even make it to launch, in this economy, are slim.

I hope the game does well personally. I too am a huge TES fan and have been since Arena. However, I also am a huge DAOC fan so my expectations probably differ from one who is just a TES fan. None the less, I will try the game. If I like it, I will keep playing it. If I don't, I won't. I simply don't play games that I don't like. Example: Neverwinter. I LOVED Neverwinter nights but I don't really care for it's MMO implentation. So, I'm not going to buy it.

Originally posted by Maelwydd

Originally posted by MyTabbycat

Originally posted by Maelwydd
Name a unique, never been done in an MMO feature that TESO has....

Name a unique, never been done in an MMO feature that WoW has...

What has WOW got to do with my post?

What does your post have to do with the OP's post?  He didn't mention anywhere that he thought it was going to be innovative  unles my reading comprehension is not what it used to be.

Originally posted by Maelwydd

What makes a TES game for me?

Freedom to make the character I want. (What race, sex, appearance, skills, guilds, affiliations/factions)

Freedom to take that character wherever I want. (Within the confines of the game design. I actually hate having this door needs a special key type thing that is always used...i am a thief, specially locked doors are my speciality!)

Freedom to play the game in the style I want. (Melee, ranged, magic or a combination).

freedom to do quests when and if I want. (Including the main story quest. I love the fact you can play the game eternally without ever having to finish a quest).

Freedom to ally myself with the various factions in the game. (Join a guild or all of them or none of them. Also fight for a side or stay out of it in relation to Skyrim).

From my list it looks like only 2 of the 5 are in the game. Not a good thing.

In a single word - feedom.

TESO is full of uneccessary restrictions because of their design choices.

Didn't you mention somewhere earlier in this thread that you already had another game and guild and whatnot and wouldn't be bothered with trying this game? If that is actually the case,  why do you continue to bash a game that you have said you have no interest in at all? It just doesn't make sense to me.

I can understand that you are a TES fan and want the game desgined exactly like the single player games. I get it. I like TES games too. But the fact appears evident to me that  they have designed the game their way and that's how it's going to be. It's pointless to continue to bash your head against a brick wall. What was Einstien said?  Something about doing the same thing and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity? How many different threads have you started with almost the exact same debate? No matter how many times you add it up... 2 + 2 is never gonna equal 5.

On to your point about CHOICE. I think it would be more viable if they, later on, in form of an update/expansion.... Included a Mercenary option.... They could make it like a diplomatic type game... Even grant guild abilities or player skills to negoiate contracts... There could be discounts for the underpopulated sides so they could attract more mercs and the overpopulated sides would have negatives based on the large amount of upkeep for their current army. They could also enforce locking mechanisms via contracts... So if you signed a contract with a certain alliance you would only be able to adventrure in that alliance's territory for the duration of the contract and while you are under contract you would only be able to acces that specific character (no alfts - to help prevent side jumping for PVP). You could eventually, but acquiring new contracts see the entire world with one character.

But that is just a pipe dream as well.

I wish you more enjoyment in your current game and hope you don't continue to let this game's design get under your skin.

Originally posted by Maelwydd
You still think the quote/reply is about poop...sad sad people.

lol, again. No, it's about opinions. Just like I originally intended it to be and it still stands. No matter how much you try to convice me of your opinion or vice versa, we will both they think the other stinks... Human nature

Originally posted by ShakyMo
"True tes fans"* don't need to poop


* swg/eq/DF fans

lol, okay... I surrender... no debating that logic

Originally posted by Maelwydd

That quote about arseholes...not everyones does stink, only those that don't wash think that.

It's your lie... tell it how you want too. It's just logical. If feces comes out of it... it's gonna stink. No matter how much you wash. Only a diluted person or someone with a personality disorder would think otherwise :)

Originally posted by jtcgs

Originally posted by miagisan 

Just like movies, music etc...no game will fit everyone. The amount of whining is unreal when it comes to mmorpgs...its like people expect games to be tailored to their needs and their needs alone. There are games i dont play and wont play for design reasons, but i really dont see the need to hop onto their forums to express my distaste for it. I just dont buy/play it. That simple.

For example...wow is a good pve game, and tons of people play it....but its not for me. I tried it, didnt like it, moved on. 

 Wait, so people dont whine about Music they dont like?!? Star Wars fans didnt cry like little girls on the rag about the new movies being bad?

Anyway...sorry but your point does not apply.

I will however apply a PROPER analogy for you.

A new group is going to take beatles lyrics, set it to death metal, have a K-pop singer sing it but it will only play if you have a plug-n-play flute and play along with it.

So tell me, should beatles fans be happy and content enough to remain silent as they are told by the record company that they are making it for them? Well...yeah, cause that is what is being done with the TES IP.

You generalized his statement. He said "He" didn't buy something he didn't like and that "He" didn't whine about it. You took it out of context and inserted your own point of view into his point.

I got his point completely. He meant he didn't get on forums and cry about a game he doesn't like, he just doesn't buy it . He has a hard time grasping why people like yourself and many others who take to the forums to broadcast your angst.

I agree with his view point. You evidently don't. Neither of us is wrong or right. We just don't agree with each other.

I played DAOC. Really enjoyed it. So my opinion is biased. I can however, see why people complain about not being able to explore the entire game world. I mean in "Skyrim" I got to run around the entire world..... oh wait... no I didn't.

Said it before will say it again. Opinions are like assholes. We all have one and they all stink.

Originally posted by jtcgs

Originally posted by Distopia

Who are you to decide which is the right or wrong way? I also love how some of you have started with this idea that all of sudden DAOC was just another MMO,  it laid the groundwork for many PVP systems that followed.

I just wanna know why you guys can't get it, there are people who disagree with your point of view. You're acting as though you have some final say on these matters, to put it frankly, you do not.

 Who are you to decide which is the right or wrong way? I also love how some of you have started with this idea that all of a sudden DAOC wasnt just another MMO, all it did was take what existed in previous MMOs and place it into restricted zones and that idea has been evolved into something new since then thus making it OLD AND OUTDATED.

I just wanna know why you guys can't get it, there are people who disagree with your point of view. You're acting as though you have some final say on these matters, to put it frankly, you do not.

See what I did there? I took your exact words and applied it to the other side of the argument because all that you said applies to everyone. The DIFFERENCE here is that those like me, are talking about an god damn RPG IP being turned into an MMORPG that is NOTHING LIKE THE RPG WHEN IT COULD BE MADE THAT WAY.

SWG, open world, open world PvP, close to TES in nature and had a HIGHER POPULATION than DAOC at its peak. There is NO OMG RVR WAS THE UBER LEET MOST POPULAR THING EVAR to go by here.

The point is and always WILL BE that they are making TES into DAOC when it SHOULDNT BE DONE THAT WAY, it should be just like TES and it CAN BE MADE THAT WAY.

Wouldn't that be bad business practice on their part? Why would anyone buy another one of the single player RPG's if they could play the EXACT same thing online. Seems like that would be a pigeon hole for the company. Unless there would be some reason for streamlining or channeling all their funds to focus on the online aspect to be the next "WOW killer" We've all seen how those attempts have turned out.

Origanlly posted by Maelwydd

Well many Germans answered the call to return the the Fatherland from all countries of birth. Americans, English, Russians...many japanese fought for America in the 2nd world war. Sides were nto cut and dry, no ALL Germans were fighting for Germany and likewise for any nation involved. hence why spys were able to do waht they did. Your point isn't really valid as making real life points to back up your argument actually proove the oppersite.

Oh and as for all the positive thinkers out there. I am well aware on what the industry is and what I will need to do to get into it. I didn't sign up to change career going from an £80,000 position to a £10,000 start position without understanding I will need to start at the bottom, learn the ropes, proove myself and then eventually get where I want. I get noticed on what I do not what I say. But your points are accepted and i am under no illusion that I will be lead design or creative director without putting in the ground work. I fully understand what hard work is involved...but I would rather struggle to get there doing something I enjoy then what I am doing now so it is all good. I will continue to enjoy games whether I make them or not.

So, you're saying that travel between the warring nations during WWII was the same as peace time? That certainly is what you're eluding too.

The only accurate anology you used was the one relating to spies. But how do you implement that into an MMO, people did that in past by making numerous accounts. Logging into one account find out was going and either logging out / into another account and informing the other side. (spying) Or vent server jumping. Same thing.

You used the Germans and Japanese fighting for the US. At least I think you did, your point was a little to vague to follow the way you worded it.  Did you not hear of the detainment camps for said individuals? Pretty much the only way out of them was by enlisting and they were segregated, as well as, for the most part used as fodder. At least the Japanese were.  Never heard of any German only fighting units but I know for a fact that anyone with German or Japanese ancestory were scrutinized by the US government.

Your example of Germans "answering the call of the fatherland from America, Russia, etc... just validates my point. They left where they were to go join their "faction" for lack of better words.

Sides were definitely cut and dry during WWII except for the espionage game and Partisan groups like the French Underground. Another idea that I think would be hard to implement in an MMO, unless  you were given a chance to choose before entering a War zone to maybe be a mercency and hire yourself out to the underpopulated side. I would definitely like to see that kind of option but don't see that happening anytime soon.

Long story short, we are all beating our heads against a wall. This is how they made the game. Either play it or don't. Bitching about it at this point won't accomplish anything. They don't have time to hit the "re-do" button now.

Just trying to give some perspective to this "Go anywhere, join any faction" debate.

Let's use World War II for an example. I don't think you found many American, British or other citizens of the allied countries taking strolls in downtown Berlin or Tokyo. I don't think the Nazi party or the Empire of Japan would have just accepted any person from one of the Allied countries who said "Hey, I want to join". The same examples would work in the other direction as well.

So, if the lore behind the game is based on a War with certain Alliances battling other alliances then the segregation makes perferct sense. I have a hard time getting my head around why people want it to be just willy nilly, unless they are just griefers who want to go to low level zones to gank lowbies.

I guess it's easier for me to see what they are going for here because I was a long time DAOC player. It was really done well prior to TOA. The PVE zones gave opportunity for exploration and for those who wanted risk while leveling, the best exp came from mobs in the frontiers where it was open season. Greater risk equaled greater reward.

I'm hoping the game can recapture some of DAOC's magic for me. But like I've said before, nostalgia is hard to duplicate.

Is it me or does everyone seem to be missing his point? He asked for a SERVER to be added with factions. Not to change the entire game?

May be my reading comprehension isn't what it used to be but that doesn't seem like an unreasonable request. It might actually open the game up to more revenue by provding a medium for people that would enjoy that type of system.

Originally posted by jtcgs

Originally posted by deakon

Yes people will zerg but there will be more than one battle to zerg, and the chances of all 3 factions all zerging the exact same objective with 100% of their forces at the same time is very unlikely

 I have half a mind to try to convience my entire guild to get this game and plan out to get 300-400 of us to ALL ATTACK THE SAME PLACES to ruin as many of your experiences as possible for defending this idiotic plan of theirs with such a blind defense. The game is in BETA, NOW is the time to wake them up to this fact and get them to CHANGE it before its too late.

If an idea is bad, SAY ITS BAD, dont defend it just because you may or may not like the game as a whole. It IS OK to say you like 95% of a game and still speak out about the 5% you DONT THINK IS A GOOD IDEA and this is NOT a good idea. They are making the entire game around these central PvP zones which makes it the single most important aspect of the game...to have 2000 player cap, yet limit what can been on screem to 200 smacks of a very large WTFH kinda stupid idea is this?!?

Once very large guilds learn of this cap, they WILL EXPLOIT IT by having their people stay together and let OTHERs take the other objectives...

And once again to everyone else...this is NOT an OPEN WORLD GAME. They are calling instances CAMPAIGNS, changing the word instance to something else does not change the fact that it is INSTANCED.

jtcgs,

Why all the hate? I mean, personally, I look at new games coming out and if I don't like what they have to offer, I simply don't buy/play them. It's a pretty simple philosophy. Just trying to get my head around why you and others are attacking the game.

Is it that you are a huge fan of TES series and want to see the game be successful? Or is it that the game doesn't fit what YOUR vision of what a game should be?

I can understand if you honestly want to try to help improve the game while it's still in beta but don't you think your purpose would be better served on the game's own website?

In my opinion, (I know opinions are like assholes, we all have one and they all stink) if you're trying to help the game improve, you are going about it the wrong way. Seriously, threatening to get your guild to ruin others game experience? That just makes you seem like the little kid on the playground that has the only ball screaming at everyone else "If we don't play it my way, I'm going to take my ball and go home"!

I don't have a personal stake in this game really. I like TES but not a huge fan, Skyrim was fun. I friggen loved DAOC pre-TOA and was dissapointed by GW2's attempt to recapture RvR. (that might be something that never happens. Nostalgia is a hard thing to duplicate) So, I will resume my sitting in the cheap seats and watching the text battle on the forums. I was just interested in yours and other attackers  motivation.

It's a game. Some of us are adults playing a game. So, trying to make a valid point about anything related to a game is difficult to say the least. 

 In regard to the topic, if you equate it to playing with action figures as a child, did you play with G.I. Joe or Barbie dolls? Video games are just digital representations of make believe that we used to use our imaginations to create as children.

Sounds like just my type of guild. I'm on-call Mon-thurs from 4p to 8a EST and will be coaching football (american) beginning in late june at local high school as well. So my playtime will be intermittent and subject to leaving the game with short notice for work when called out. Would that be a problem? If not I would love to join the guild. It's very hard for me to find guilds because of work so you guys sound like a perfect fit for me.

Played DAOC for 5 years in the day. Never heard of an 8 man taking out a 100 man zerg at one time.  Although, I have seen and been a part of some 8 v 24 fights and the 8 man come out on top. Please link some video evidence of the 8 v 100 combat. I'd love to see how they pulled it off. Until I see it myself, I will never believe it.

I'm a former long time DAOC player too.

You are both right to some extent. DAOC is the best PVP/RVR system that I have played to date. WOW is a good game as well but on the PVE side. WOW's pvp sucks while DAOC's pve sucks in comparison to each other. (Trials of atlantis, was the beginning of the end for me)

I have the same issue with one of my buddies. He's a WOW baby. (it was his first mmo) So there really is no arguing with him. He just keeps throwing sub numbers and I keep telling him the vast majority of those numbers are Chinese, lol.

I've played both games, as well as, everything else that's come down the pike and to this day think DAOC is the best game I have ever played. It pretty much just boils down too your personal taste and you might as well agree to disagree on this one. Unless you just like to argue that is. :)