All Posts by Distaste

Originally posted by Vicksburg

Originally posted by Majinash

I just have to point out again that vick says that people will only pay for a grind, not for fun.  thats right, people don't want "fun" in their game, they want to grind for gear.

 

honestly how can anyone say that and not shoot themselves?  a game needs less fun and more grind in order to be good.

 

This... this just blows my mind, that anyone would even pretend to think that way. "no way guys, that game has way too much fun, people won't pay to PLAY a game, they want to run the same dungons/BGs ect over and over to get their tier 56 gear, and thats the only reason people pay for MMOs"

 

gah, I need to go put some salt in an open wound or something.

You say: Wow is pure grind.
 

I SAY WOW is pure fun tuning your character.

And as there are more than 10 million players having FUN in tuning your character in Wow, it shows it succeeds.

You make a definition of GRIND, while all players of Wow who like it know the grind in Wow is very limited, because tuning your character in acquiring gear is NOT grind.

You manipulate (on purpose) the definition of grind: Grind is mindlessly bashing mobs in the hope for a drop te sell or to have better gear.

This kind of grinding does hardly exists in WOW, because WOW has so much varied plays to offer, be it solo, casual, raid, dungeons ,heroic dungeons, battlegrounds ,daily quests in ALL fields including world PvP, professions, arena, you name it.

If this is ALL grind than every other MMORPG outthere is even more grind than Wow.

Including War.

You are just dishonest in redefining  a word that is as hollow as it sounds.

Grind means to do something many times in the MMO world. It isn't just mobs its rep, bosses, instances, crafting, etc.

Gear grinding is the absolute biggest thing in WoW. It is the purpose for everything. You do repeated arena matches to grind out Arena gear. You do BG's to grind out honor gear. You grind instances/raids to grind out .

So you say WoW doesn't have really any grinding. Well to get rep you mindlessly bash mobs. To get Raid gear you learn the encounter then mindlessly bash mobs each time it resets. PvP you mindlessly bash enemies. Arena you mindlessly bash other players for 10 games. Its all a big grind and I never personally found the FUN in WoW.

Originally posted by jzuska

Yep. And I hope to get to that rank in a few weeks. That's the idea. So you can kick the other side's ass.

The idea is the war, not the PvE.

You as well as many other people do not get it at all. There are PvP quests, Keeps, Battle Objectives, and scenarios to do. Leveling does not just involve PvE from 1-40. If you power level though all you are left with IS PvE. RvR/PvP requires other players and when you out level them then you are stuck with just the PvE because there is no one or very few people to fight.  No people to fight means your PvP rank doesn't go up and you are undergeared. Not to mention that some quests/dungeons/PQ's will probably be group oriented so by leveling ahead of the pack you cannot complete that content which we can assume will have better rewards. So once again you are undergeared.

So if you want to powerlevel by all means have fun. You will get to 40 with run of the mill gear, super low PvP rank, no one to fight, and then have to play catch up.

Just getting to max rank doesn't mean you will be at the end game and  leveling doesn't just entail PvE.

Bottom line is that WoW will NEVER be a PvP game. It is a PvE game with PvP side shows.

Oh WoW there will be a keep battle? Do you get the best gear from it? NO the arena gear is the best. People will still play Arena and neglect anything else that doesn't have the best gear. The WoW PvP mentality is to go for gear and not for battles. So it doesn't matter how they change things or what open world things they add it won't change it.

Combat speed is a laughable argument. It is beta things change and watching a video of pretty much any MMO out will make me yawn. I don't like games where I get exploded in 5 seconds or less. There is nothing like waiting 30 seconds to rez, 15 running back to the fight, and dying in 5 seconds. Not to mention the fact that having time to think inbetween abilities is a must have instead of just spamming the same 3-4 abilities. Heaven forbid you feel like you are actually in a battle and not playing a game of whack-a-mole.

Oh and to the guy who said that once you take a keep and city 30 times you will be bored. Well since they expect a city to be taken/attacked once a month that means 30 months worth of content. 2 years 6 months worth of content? Sweet. Not to mention they will be putting out expansions and they won't be the 2 year underwhelming for the development time WoW expansions.

As for the dynamic shadows crap that WoW is doing....Awesome just what I wanted. I mean that was right up there on my list of things that an MMO absolutely needs.  I was just talking to my friend the other day you know and we both agreed that when PvP is lacking any real meaning you need more shadows. WoW putting in shadows now is just plain stupid. Just think in another 2 years you might get armor dyes so everyone doesn't look exactly the same.

Originally posted by wjrasmussen

Originally posted by Tee312

Originally posted by Sain34

It's not a sandbox game by any sense of the word, but it should still be fun.

 

What do you define Sandbox as?  Sandbox, for me, is an open world where you can go or do anything.  Kind of live Oblivion, that seems to come to mind.  I don't know of any MMO that is "sandbox" except Vanguard and the original EQ, thats about as close as I can see.

He was talking about it being linear, like follow the line, go here and here, no where else.

 

I think he means by sandbox, something a very intelligent person, such as himself, plays as opposed to linear games which appeal to most people because they are sheep/idiots. 

Sandbox vs Linear has nothing to do with intellect. Some people prefer to explore and create their own content and some people prefer to be given content to do. You don't call people who like to cook at home intelligent and people who like to eat at a restaurant sheep/idiots do you? A home cooked meal can be nice but a fancy dinner can be nice as well.

Sandbox games don't really get made because the amount of people that want them is shadowed by the amount of people that want content put in front of them. Not to mention the fact that if you ask 15 different people about the definition of a sandbox game you will get 15 different answers. Some say no levels, some say no set content, some say no set path, etc.

As for WAR being a sandbox-ish game? Nope. There are 3 pairings, levels, set areas for objectives, and set content. So by anyones definition it isn't sandbox.

It will be for dx9.

As for a dx10 mmo? I think AoC will be the first and last dx10 mmo. DX 11 is due out in 2009 with Windows 7 so why would anyone start work on a dx10 mmo? Unless there is already a dx10 mmo in the works but I haven't heard of any(bioware maybe?).

Originally posted by markoraos

Originally posted by kryten

so they are going to finish the game with your sub money. smed would be proud.

 

I don't think development money has anything to do with it.

If it was all about the dev money they would have kept it a secret.

This way you can keep your money until all the content comes online. No one is forcing or cheating you into buying an unfinished product.

Imo the 2 prime reasons why they decided to stick to their release date are:

a) WoTLK. They need to form a solid player base before that plague hits

b) Consideration towards their fans. Not out of some bleeding-heart "goodness" but because the hype is nearing the boiling point and any additional delay might result in a catastrophic backlash.

 

..oh and please don't do that thing with Smed anymore. I'll have to go to sleep soon... and I really, really hope I won't dream.

They saw what happened to AoC when you don't tell fans whats going on. So they either needed to tell everyone and lose some people for launch but have a longer retention rate on people that do play or pull an AoC and have lots of people leave after the first month. How this works out we will know in a few months. I don't know if a delay would have hurt the community near as much as classes and cities being cut.

Don't get me wrong they probably did take fans into consideration. However don't think for a second that they aren't about getting money. MBJ keeps saying it will release when its a great game but the second he turns around you know he is trying to launch in a timely manner to make more money. So is it great game for the gamers or great game for making money? At this point in time I can't tell.

For most people it isn't the fact that Mythic is cutting content to make launch. It is the fact that Mythc is cutting content that is vital.

The most important things for PvP:

1. A reason to fight- Important- City capture/loot/bragging rights

2. Balance- Types of classes, abilities, etc

3. Combat system

Cut corners on any one of those and there are going to be issues.  Other things that could have been cut or limited that wouldn't have caused near as big an uproar: PQ's, Dungeons, ToK, dye, mounts, guild standards, scenarios.

The bottomline is RvR boils down to Classes fighting other classes. You cannot plan a game to be based around 24 classes then drop 4 and say its balanced. You don't buy a new 4 door sedan with only 3 doors on it do you?

Honestly I would rather have had them do 1 themed pairing with respective cities and 24 classes over 3 themed pairings with 2 cities and 20 classes. Classes mean a lot to a game and to announce them cut them is something that would be considered absolute last resort. This obviously isn't last resort since MBJ says he could delay again if he wanted. They want to make the launch date and thats the end of the story.

When they say they cannot balance/tweak classes that already have a mirror IN the game you should start thinking and stop listening. This is the one thing that puts Mythic on the edge for me..

BTW I would put the chance of another delay at 1%. They have hit the point of no return with guild beta IMO. MBJ said it before that he wanted guilds to see the game when it was good because they are important to the games success. Thousands of testers are hard to keep quiet about things if they have to delay. The time to delay would have been before Guild beta. The fact that the timing of guild beta and this announcement to me shows they made the decision to dash to release before confirming GB.

Originally posted by darkraptor

Originally posted by Adythiel

Originally posted by Scorchien

   Lol wow go read a little and get educated before you make a foolish post like this .... 4 of 24 classes .. the 4 removed were hybrids each realm still has a few tank and dps choices .. the 2 cities doesnt bother me and there will be content directed to each individual race...

 

A bit more research on your part might be a good idea.

 

2 of the 4 professions removed are in fact tanks.

Empire - Knights of the Blazing Sun

Dark Elf - Blackguard

That leaves those 2 races without tanks.

 

What is your point here? It's now just 1 faction vs the other, therefore that leaves 0 factions without tanks.

You haven't even looked at the game in depth have you?

This isn't a typical game where each archetype is exactly the same. Destruction lost the offensive/ Magic tank which in turn means Destruction is weaker against casters. Order lost the Heavy / Aura Tank so they will be weaker against melee. If you think one side having a distinct advantage over the other is a good thing then your crazy.

Not to mention the trickle effect that this will have on the other tiers. While the loss of the 2 melee dps sucks for people who wanted those play styles it isn't nearly as bad as the tanks. See as soon as you start your racial tier you get quests. Most people when they get quests they like to complete them. So naturally they will continue with their quests and never make it over to the tankless pairing.  It would be like rolling an undead running to UC, going to Org then back to the starting area. Will it happen? Yes but it won't happen a lot. Then people assume that as soon as they reach the first warcamp they will want to go to other tiers. Who wants to drop all their current quests, ship off to a new land then picking up a bunch of new quests? Not to mention what insentive is there for tanks to travel to them? It doesn't benefit them, they don't need a healer/DPS but the Healer/DPS in those tiers need the tanks.

The effects of the lack of tanks? Less Gear from PQ's not getting done, imbalance in scenarios/rvr zones and because of that Renown Ranks will be lower. So basically anyone that plays that race will get the short end of the stick and encourages people to not play that  race's tier. Since people wont play that races tier it in turn effects the enemies that are part of that pairing. If there isn't anyone to fight  they will move on to a place that does have battles.

So by the removal of 2 tanks it decreases the quality of 2 whole pairings.

Originally posted by zippy123

Man that VN board is just full of whiners.

I hope they don't delay the game unless it seriously needs it, not just  because zit boy X wants to play X class and is throwing a tantrum on the boards. Only 10 classes per side 20 overall, and they can't find another to pick from?

I think Mark should just ignore the forums, that is only a very small portion of the player base anyways.

I can tell the class you wanted to play is still in the game.

Hey if you want to play an offensive tank(one of the more popular options) on destruction you can't. There is not 2nd option. Many people only have 10 options because of guilds rolling a specific side.  Add in aesthetic tastes an options get even slimmer. For a lot of people the character model and playstyle you choose can be a 1 year + decision.

I really hope they delay to get the 4 old classes or 4 new classes in. Even if it has to be until a month or 2 after WotLK when people get bored again it would be fine. You might say well you are in beta so you don't care since you get to play it anyway. Even if they would shut down beta until they get the classes done I would still recommend them delaying. You cannot build a solid game with a gaping wound where classes should be. It would be fine if the game was designed around 20 classes and all roles were filled on each side but currently they aren't.

I have to say that they shouldn't drop NDA yet because instead of quelling the "hysteria"(good show btw!) it would cause a whole lot more.

Originally posted by fuzzylojik

If they added these classes even with them having issues, people would play them, found out they sucked and there would be even more hew and cry and people cancelling than this move entailed.  I say good move by Mythic on being up front and not whimping out from the reality of the situation.

For those people who wanted to play these classes, imagine after spending hours developing and levelling them you found out they were crap.  That would suck even more no?

Uh I did that before as well. Warlock at the start of WoW were not that stellar. I played that until some firends got me to play on their server and I played a mage. While mages were good at one point after about BWL they became fodder for just about everyone unless you could get a 1vs1 with a warrior and that NEVER happens in a BG. So yeah I hated mages with a passion. Then a year after BC came out and rolled warlock again and they were fine for awhile but after Season 3 they were just like mages...cannon fodder. Warriors, Rogues, even ret paladins could tear through me in seconds and the pet is 2-3 hit quitter.

I can honestly say that I would rather play another gimped class and keep up with my friends then not be able to play my class.

As for the other comment about how would I feel about them not announcing the classes etc. I would feel better because then the game was designed around those 20 classes and not the 24 with 4 missing that we are getting.

Originally posted by Gishgeron

Originally posted by AgtSmith

Originally posted by Ascension08 

I hope you'll at least try the game.

 

I don't think I will try it now.  While I respect that they where up front about this they are clearly focused more on releasing by a certain date than finishing the game.  I am sick and tired of MMOs shipping unfinished and obviously rushed out the door and will no longer give such games a try.  If a developer wants by business, at launch or even after, they had better ship a well polished and complete game.  I think more gamers should adopt this attitude or we are just going to get the same flaky and unfinished crap offered up.

 

  I"m confused.

  You say you refuse to deal with unfinished crap...but when a company cuts something out in order to make everything presented fully polished and finished, you are mad at them?  The ideal here IS to have a polished and completed game.  They decided to cut some fat off of the meat...so what?  From where I am sitting, removing the unneeded sieges (which only serve to divide the playerbase into chunks or vastly different size, and thus ensure a PoTBS debacle) and taking out "repeat" classes is a good move if they want to not only HAVE a solid and polished game....but also get it out the door before the majority of the MMO market share spend their only holiday money on WoW YET AGAIN.

I fear that you want the game rushed out so YOU don't have to play WoW. As for Polish. Polish can only do so much on things that work and can't fix something that is broken. It is like a cofee mug. You start polishing it and realize you cannot get it done before you want to drink coffee so you cut the handle off. That is what Mythic is pretty much doing right now. Can the coffee cup still hold coffee? Yep but when the cup gets too hot your going to get burned.

The citiies is a lore thing and really puts people off. While a majority might be playing the game for the PvP there are still a lot that wanted Warhammer Lore and settings. High Elves shacking up with humies isn't what they want.

Classes is a whole bag of worms. First off you have the aesthetics and playstyles that people wanted and now cannot get on their respective sides anymore or at all in some cases. Then we have 2 fronts of balance issues. First off is that leaving these classes out and balancing without them will create imbalance when they are added. PvE wise there will be trouble getting tanks acrossed tiers to allow other races to not only enjoy their racial pairing but be able to do some of the content.

They are going to polish around the big hole but is that really going to be a polished game? I don't think so. The citiy thing is more of a hit to lore which isn't to bad since they will get put in. The Classes is a major hit to art and gameplay and that double whammy is really giving me doubts about how fun things will be for the masses.

Originally posted by TheSheikh

You could always play a Squig Herder, they will have decent DPS. I am sure you can specialize yourself and/or your pet to be more effective in melee combat as well.

Me personally? I wanted to play a blackgaurd. I like their look, their mechanic, and their playstyle. I don't like the Black Orcs Mechanic and I can't say I love their look, Chosen I like the look but i don't like the mechanic/weapons. So if I want my mechanic I need to play a Dwarf and I absolutely 100% will never play a dwarf seriously EVER. I hate them. So I am basically left Classesless atm since my guild is going to be destruction. I don't like using pets unless it is fluid and doesn't take much micromanagement. I don't like playing female toons. And I don't like the marauder mutations. Magus Disc turns me off as well.

So I got Zealot, DoK, Shaman, and a sorcerer.  So I HAVE to be a caster/healer if I play destruction when I wanted to be melee/damage class.

On the opposite side of the fence since I hate Dwarfs their goes 3 classes. Again removing the class mechanics that I don't like It leaves Shadow Warrior, Archmage, and Warrior priest. BW's hair just makes me hate the class.

Yes I am picky but playing a class that i enjoy is important to me. This isn't the big reason that I don't like the 4 classes being removed either so don't try and put it on me as I am just mad I lost my class. While I am mad I can see passed that look at the balance issues and the problems that others will also have with finding a class they like now.

Originally posted by kraiden

spoke with a buddy of mine who used to be on the mythic team a few hours ago.

They said

"didnt you play a zerker in daoc"

my answer "yes"

"dont you remember how many nerfs you got"

my answer yes

"well there you go, it would be bad for the progressioon of the game to bring out and then nerf"

 

Im gonna hold off on the rest of the conversation because it involved alot of 4 letter words from me.
I have to say the mythic is the most meticulous gaming ballance team in any game I have ever played. I trust their LONG TERM decision making ability fully.

Heres the GOOD part of having the classes cut.
Now there is a REASON to choose a side. DAOC you choose your side based on playstyle... now you choose your side based on army stregnth.

Destruction has no offensive 2handed tanks! this is why Im playing order now and loading up on swordmasters in my guild... my main pvp group will be me healing 4 swordmasters with another healer.

Order has no aoe debuffer like the chaos warrior is. The chaos warrior also doubles as a anti magic tank, thus giving Destruction TWO anti magic melee in a game with more casters than melee.

 

make your choices on playstyle... and see you on the battlefield.

 

Hasani

Playstyle is the exact reason that this sucks. I don't like playing female toons so WE is gone.  I don't like the marauder look/mutations so that is out. So what melee DPS can I play? WH right? Well when my guild is going to play destruction how am I going to be able to pick my favorite playstyle and image?

You can't. The imbalance of playstyles is a BAD thing. I don't want to choose between what pleases me and my friends. Because bottom line is that Multiplayer games are meant for fun with your friends. So people will be forced to play a playstyle/class/race/sex that they do not want to, to play with friends. It will honestly make it a miserable experience for people.

To be quite honest classes in an RvR game are THE single most important thing. PQ's could have been cut or ToK scope cut in half  and it wouldn't have been near as bad for the game as cutting 4 classes.

There are some other things but I can't talk about them yet.

Originally posted by Home15

Open beta will let me decide If this game is worth having in terms of fun, not abouth 4 classes that didnt make it, or starting zones that will be empty anyway since your out there leveling up moving yourself to the main capitol cities like Ironforge/Ogrimmar.

WoW gnomes and Trolls didnt had there initial starting cities, and yet after 4 years they still dont, do you see people complaining abouth it? hardly.

You still get twice as much classes then WoW delivers, even with there heroclass wich is basicly just a normal class in itself.

If you guys disagree you can always go back to Repcraft. j/k

The problem with waiting until open beta is that there will be a TON of people in it. With those people comes a bunch of servers and more money being wasted.

It is easier at this point to delay now before OB and get the classes in and then do OB.

People keep thinking that they are just a few classes. Those classes are representative of certain playstyles and since they are being taken away so are the places for players to go.  Not to mention the balance issues it brings up. There is already a bunch of ranged and with the removal of 4 melee it almost becomes a ranged game.

The cities I could care less about. Fighting over 2 cities is fine and dandy. None of the other cities bring anything super important to the table besides flavor. The classes however but a big dent in the core of the game.

BTW I hate WoW and even I can say at this point that it isn't close to double the classes. There are 10(was 12) classes but each class has a different flavor making it 20 variants.