All Posts by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by Gutboy

From the fan fair today, here is this:

11)  LucasArts and SOE (i.e. management) are deeply committed to supporting our dev team.  They would not comment on any other licensing, but George Lucas' son plays SWG and enjoys it a lot.  Therefore George is interested in making sure the game suceeds (in theory)
 

 

Do I want SWG to go away? No, that would be an oversimplification of my point of view.  Do I want it to work well?  For the sake of my friends that play, yes.  I'd also like the marketting to consistently reflect the current state of the game, and the future plans SOE and LEC have for it.  I'd also still like those who got burned by misleading advertising (re. profession revamps and ToOW features) to be fully compensated--all sub time paid beyond Nov. 15/05 refunded, not because the game was changed, but as an apology for misleading marketting. 

These have always been my goals.  I hope young Lucas enjoys himself, that he doesn't encounter a lot of frustration, and that he doesn't work on things only to have them broken or removed at some point with little or no warning.

I'd like SWG to be a good experience for people still willing to do business with SOE.  For those of us that aren't, it would be nice to have another StarWars MMO available.

Having said all of that, if SOE continues to release buggy updates, if they don't fix the things they've said they would, if they continue to say one thing to their customers and then do the opposite, then I'd sooner see someone else running SWG if it is to remain.

That really gave me a chuckle :) Thanks Jestor.

Originally posted by JaydinBane

It's obvious that we all at one point loved SWG, so here's the million dollar question:

Would you even ever consider going back and if you would, what would be the required changes?

 

 

Well it's been asked before, but I don't mind answering again:

Smed would have to resign or get the boot at this point.  Can't trust anything the guy says, so I can't justify giving him my money for anything in advance.

Everyone who paid subscription money because they were promised a profession revamp, and then saw that same profession instead deleted with the NGE, should get all sub money back that was paid beyond Nov. 15/05 (note this refund isn't because the game was changed, it would be restitution for alleged false advertising).

Everyone who paid subscription money beyond Nov. 15 to play the new game expansion, should also get that money back, since the NGE (which gutted the expansion) wasn't mentioned at all in either of the two dev chats prior to its release (once again restitution for alleged false advertising).

Serious bugs and issues that have persisted for years would have to be actually fixed.  Especially the ones SOE said they would address.

An official apology from Lucasarts and SOE for misleading their customers regarding the profession revamps and the expansion, and for attempting to exchange one target audience for another, AFTER release.

All of that would have to happen before I even looked at the game again.  However, I'd still be wary that new RMT buffs and loot might render ingame buffs and loot obsolete, and that game mechanics might be systematically manipulated by SOE to increase demand for RMT items. 

You'll notice that most of these items have to do with ethical business practices and treating customers with basic respect.  In my experience, SOE is frankly abusive towards those that play their games.  That needs to stop, and SOE needs to take important steps to make amends for past actions.

Originally posted by xxUltimaxx

SOE

But really this is like asking whos worse Hitler or umm CyberHitler. Really they both suck. Dishonest companies run by dishonest people. Though Smed is definetly the biggest snake in the video game industry imho. My complaint with SOE is their games on one hand and their business practices on the other.

Oh and SWG was not failing when they instituted the CU and the NGE. It had about the average number of players when WoW released. It lost some, but most were coming back within the first few months. It was failing at the CU, casue the CU wasn't that good. The NGE was not the right response. Also I only slightly blame Lucas Arts...It was SOE's marketing plan, and thats what really pissed me off.

What's interesting to me is that it appears Funcom didn't learn from SOE's mistakes.
 

Mistake number 1: release a buggy game that is missing content that was promised at release.

Mistake number 2: advertise one kind of product while you have your developers busily doing exactly the opposite of what you've told your customers.  In Sony's case, it was promising profession revamps while telling their devs to develop the NGE, which would delete all of those same professions.  It was also marketting an expansion with features that the NGE would then render useless just 14 days after it went live.  In Funcom's case it seems it was marketting like this "Death never looked so hot." ESRB rating M for nudity etc., and then having the devs busily covering up the topless NPCs.

One thing certainly seems clear.  If you don't learn these two lessons, you won't make it in today's MMO market: (1) release a highly functioning game with all of the features you advertised, and (2) don't tell your customers one thing, and then tell your devs to do the opposite.

Originally posted by Rebn77

I don't hold SoE totally accountable for the SW:NGE, I've read too many things that makes me believe most of that was LucasArts.

From the lead designer of the NGE at Sony Online Entertainment:

"So we were given the directive to make Galaxies better.

Not just make Galaxies better, but make it succesful. Not the 200k
subs it had, but really succesful. The idea was that we had the most
valuable IP in the entire world, and we fucked it up to the point of
having 200k subs."

Those were the directions given to the SOE devs.  "Make Galaxies better," make it successful."  They came up with the NGE, showed it to their bosses, who gave it the green light, and the rest is history:

"So, I wanted to clarify that we did, here at SOE conceive and develop the NGE. We did so with the best of intentions, to try and make a better game. No blame or buck is being passed. =)

SOE and LA both seemed to have played roles in this.  SOE definitely carries responsibility for coming up with the NGE, and for thinking that it's a good idea to push an unwanted game revamp that has only been in development for 3 months.

If Lucasarts had more of a role than saying "make it better," it may have been related to the market research that suggested new directions for the game.  They didn't include any current players, and seemed to be targetting younger, non-players.  That's bad sampling.  I also focus on their role in the marketting of the Trials of Obiwan, and not mentioning the upcoming NGE, that would gut the expansion until the day after the expansion went live, and all the VISA payments were finalized.

Originally posted by Daffid011

I gets so old hearing the SWG defenders talk about things as if they are ancient history.

Those things happened long ago and people need to move on, the devs that did those nasty things are no longer there, SOE ran into problems when they tried to fix something so they can't.

 

Please stop making excuses for their actions.  It is not like there was some secret cadre of devs who commited this blunders, SOE got rid of them and everything is working fine now.  THIS IS HOW THE COMPANY OPERATES!  End of story.  Those oh so bad people are still there, because that is how this company thinks it is acceptable to do business with their customers.

They don't run into problems that cannot be fixed, they choose not to, because it would cost to much money.  They sure didn't have a problem rewriting the game engine to make some fucked up psuedo FPS game that they expected people to pay to beta test for 6 months while they "fixed" it.

 

Same company, same people, same end result.  There is a reason each of their game forums have an official I hate SOE thread. 

 

 

 

 

Gotta love it when someone just calls it like they see it.  Very refreshing.  Thanks for the post.
 

Originally posted by Mackerni

Originally posted by ketrine
 

You mean the unreleased version they were toying with, or the released version they messed up with the NGE?

 

The two years of programming they deleted and replaced with, with the pre-CU that was the original game of SWG. If the pre-CU only took 18 months to make, I wonder what the game would have been like if the ORIGINAL 2-YEAR game was never revamped or destroyed in anyway.

I have a feeling that it would probably have been the best MMOG on the market right now if they had stuck to their guns about the original product. Too bad they didn't.

... oh. And Star Wars? It's not directed towards children or adults. It's directed towards both.

You know, as I read all of this, I get the impression that Smed and his pals kept rewriting the game, so that each time people got to play something that was unfinished and broken as hell.  It seems like the original version of the game was scrapped after maybe a couple years of development, and then something was rushed out unfinished.  Then it seems that work was being done to fix this, but all of that was scrapped and the CU was rushed out unfinished.  Then it seems that all of that was scrapped by the NGE which was probably the most rushed and broken version of the game to date.  Then, to make matters worse, they finally decided to stick with one game, and picked the most broken one of all that has core bugs that can't be fixed 0_o.

When I see all of this, it's very easy to imagine Smed counting on the StarWars name to bring in some customers.  I'm not sure what else he could possibly be counting on...besides misleading marketting.

P.S. thanks Obee for the clarification regarding the links.

Originally posted by Fishermage

 

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Originally posted by ArcAngel3

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Originally posted by Fishermage

 

 
 

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Originally posted by ArcAngel3

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Originally posted by sookster54
 
I imagine most of these people that attended this conference are pretty pissed about the lack of what they saw on the demo, the capital ships. This was back in 2005 (I believe during the CU).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_isoBJZXV0A

 

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Yeah I remember that.  Then Smed posted on the boards something like "hey how would you like to see guild controlled star destroyers?"
Then when nothing like this ever transpired, players asked, "hey what about those star destroyers?"  Of course the answer was something like "well we never actually said they were coming, a dev was just fooling around with this on his PC, and we thought we'd show you; and well Smed was just throwing a random question out there, you guys are crazy if you think that had anything to do with actual development plans."
This is just another example of why many people don't want to do business with SOE anymore.  You never seem to know what you're really going to get, whether or not it will actually work, or how long it's going to last.  I really don't think you can run a business that way, and hope to grow your share of the market.

 

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It's bad enough that people would ever TRY and run a business that way, but stranger yet are the customers who defend such behavior on these and other forum boards.
 

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Well I know there are some current players who simply don't want to lose their StarWars MMO, so they post here and elswhere to try to defend the game.  I can understand that, and sympathize.  I know what it feels like to lose an online community.  It's not a good feeling.
However, there are very clearly some posters that are motivated not by a desire to keep their game, but rather by SOE's corporate interest.
How can you tell the difference?  Some people claim to have played since beta, but clearly have no understanding of how the original game worked.  Those people very likely didn't actually play.  They post regularly about how wonderful SOE is, how excellent the current game is, and how crazy disgruntled players are for complaining about it.  Facts are deliberately obscured and other people's words are intentionally twisted.  They also tend to post the same kind of crap about Pirates of the Burning Sea and Vanguard.  Oh they've played all of these since beta (they say), and the "real players" are still playing or coming back to all of these games by the droves.  They'll also say that anyone who ever felt cheated by SOE is obviously crazy.  They also claim that SOE is a successful business because look at all the games they still have running.  Never mind the low subscriptions, broken gameplay, horrible reviews etc..  They also talk about how SOE is leading the MMO field with it's innovative ideas and courageous risk-taking.
Players simply don't talk like that, and you can't really fake being a player.  Players who post to share their views and experiences sound like players.  Viral marketters don't.
What I'd say to readers is look for these hallmarks in posts about any game.  If you see this kind of talk, you're likely dealing with a viral marketter.  Their only interest is recruitment, and they won't let the facts or the law get in the way of them doing their crappy job.

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I can understand being motivated because you want to keep your game, but not justifying the lying of the corporation that makes that game, jsut because you want to keep your game.

Talking about how much you like a game and enjoy playing it and what a great community you have is one thing, saying that "they didn't REALLY LIE...." and "they never really PROMISED...well, not exactly..." That kinda attitude just boggles my mind.

I can understand far better a paid viral marketer. They checked their ethics at the door. But a paying customer?
 

If it is in fact just paying customers saying things like that, I also find it a bit surprising.  The only thing I've seen similar to this is when people feel trapped in a bad situation.  They sometimes tell themselves it's really not that bad in an effort to cope. 

On the other hand, most of my friends who still play the game don't deny what SOE did.  They empathize with their friends who were mistreated, and understand why we left.  They also continue to play and try to make the game better from the inside.  They share when some improvements are made to the game, and share ongoing frustration when things are changed on them again, or when bugs go left unfixed.  I respect that kind of commentary very much.

O.k. I found the post I read, with some links, but I'm still wondering if anyone can quote Smedley saying that people would buy a buggy game just because it's StarWars.

Smed's response to the accusation was that SOE has never released an "incomplete" product.  To Smed, "I don't think incomplete means what you think it means."

Here's the post I was talking about:

"This was from an e-mail from someone to CBS.

"This type of business ethic continues at SOE because of their CEO, John Smedley. Little does the public know, that Star Wars Galaxies was scrapped in 2002 and redeveloped in 14 months from the ground up. In a meeting, they asked how they could get away with releasing such an unfinished product. John Smedley stated that people will buy it because it has a Star Wars name on it - and then laughed as they said they would complete the retail product (which consumers have already paid $49.99 for) with approximately 2 years of subscription revenue."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/12/20/tech/gamecore/main1146894_page5.shtml

Smed;s response (to the e-mail, not about swg being scrapped) here

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/02/21/tech/gamecore/main1335511.shtml"
 

Originally posted by Gutboy

Humm other games when they shut down have even less time like:

"We have reached our time limit to find a solution that would help us keep the Fury servers open. Sadly, no solution has been found and so we have no alternative than to shut the servers down in 48 hours."
 

SOE seems to find the lowest common denominator in the MMO field, and then set that as the standard they need to meet or barely surpass.  You can justify almost anything if you think this way.  You may be able to convince yourself that you're alright (works better if you're drunk), but everyone else still sees the bullsh*t for what it is. 
 

Why not look at how thriving companies deal with their customers and set that as your standard?  And no that doesn't mean copying their 9 professions and putting an xp bar along the bottom of the screen.  It means learning how to value customers and treat them with dignity.  That's the only way to earn respect and customer loyalty in the long run.

Your current SOE customers (those that remain) may be your future SOE customers, if you stop pissing on them and telling them it's raining.

I read a post the other day that mentioned an interview with Smed.  Apparently the game was revamped  once entirely even before release, and the original game was developed in what appeared to be a very short time.  When asked about quality concerns, this post reported Smed saying that people would play the game even if it was full of bugs and incomplete because it's StarWars. 

I can't find the post that mentioned all of this.  Did he really say that?  Anyone got a link?

Originally posted by sookster54

 

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Originally posted by ArcAngel3
you guys are crazy if you think that had anything to do with actual development plans."

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Seriously, what were they thinking? You don't just show something like that at a conference with several viewers then turn around and say "not part of our development plans". That's almost like showing a drawing of a concept car at a Ford conference and then saying a few weeks later "oh we thought we'd show you this cool car my son drew, we're not going to actually design that car".

 

Well it's even worse if the president of the car company says, "hey how'd you like to see that in your driveway?"  Worse still is the idea that people pay subscription money in advance based on what they're led to believe will become part of their gameplay.  At least with the concept car, no money changes hands.  With SWG, it did.

Originally posted by Fishermage

 

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Originally posted by ArcAngel3

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Originally posted by sookster54

 

I imagine most of these people that attended this conference are pretty pissed about the lack of what they saw on the demo, the capital ships. This was back in 2005 (I believe during the CU).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_isoBJZXV0A

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Yeah I remember that.  Then Smed posted on the boards something like "hey how would you like to see guild controlled star destroyers?"
Then when nothing like this ever transpired, players asked, "hey what about those star destroyers?"  Of course the answer was something like "well we never actually said they were coming, a dev was just fooling around with this on his PC, and we thought we'd show you; and well Smed was just throwing a random question out there, you guys are crazy if you think that had anything to do with actual development plans."
This is just another example of why many people don't want to do business with SOE anymore.  You never seem to know what you're really going to get, whether or not it will actually work, or how long it's going to last.  I really don't think you can run a business that way, and hope to grow your share of the market.

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It's bad enough that people would ever TRY and run a business that way, but stranger yet are the customers who defend such behavior on these and other forum boards.

 

Well I know there are some current players who simply don't want to lose their StarWars MMO, so they post here and elswhere to try to defend the game.  I can understand that, and sympathize.  I know what it feels like to lose an online community.  It's not a good feeling.

However, there are very clearly some posters that are motivated not by a desire to keep their game, but rather by SOE's corporate interest.

How can you tell the difference?  Some people claim to have played since beta, but clearly have no understanding of how the original game worked.  Those people very likely didn't actually play.  They post regularly about how wonderful SOE is, how excellent the current game is, and how crazy disgruntled players are for complaining about it.  Facts are deliberately obscured and other people's words are intentionally twisted.  They also tend to post the same kind of crap about Pirates of the Burning Sea and Vanguard.  Oh they've played all of these since beta (they say), and the "real players" are still playing or coming back to all of these games by the droves.  They'll also say that anyone who ever felt cheated by SOE is obviously crazy.  They also claim that SOE is a successful business because look at all the games they still have running.  Never mind the low subscriptions, broken gameplay, horrible reviews etc..  They also talk about how SOE is leading the MMO field with it's innovative ideas and courageous risk-taking.

Players simply don't talk like that, and you can't really fake being a player.  Players who post to share their views and experiences sound like players.  Viral marketters don't.

What I'd say to readers is look for these hallmarks in posts about any game.  If you see this kind of talk, you're likely dealing with a viral marketter.  Their only interest is recruitment, and they won't let the facts or the law get in the way of them doing their crappy job.

Originally posted by sookster54

I imagine most of these people that attended this conference are pretty pissed about the lack of what they saw on the demo, the capital ships. This was back in 2005 (I believe during the CU).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_isoBJZXV0A

Yeah I remember that.  Then Smed posted on the boards something like "hey how would you like to see guild controlled star destroyers?"

Then when nothing like this ever transpired, players asked, "hey what about those star destroyers?"  Of course the answer was something like "well we never actually said they were coming, a dev was just fooling around with this on his PC, and we thought we'd show you; and well Smed was just throwing a random question out there, you guys are crazy if you think that had anything to do with actual development plans."

This is just another example of why many people don't want to do business with SOE anymore.  You never seem to know what you're really going to get, whether or not it will actually work, or how long it's going to last.  I really don't think you can run a business that way, and hope to grow your share of the market.

Tbh, I just hope that SOE is honest with people if it comes to the game shutting down.  I'd like to see them give people at least a couple months notice, so they can say their goodbyes and party 'till the lights go out.  A nice game ending event (that works) would be gravy. 

What I hope they don't do is tell people that the game has a bright future with incredible new content coming if they know they're shutting it down.  I'd hate to see them mislead people again just to maximize revenues before they pull the plug.  I half expect them to do this, but I'm willing to be pleasantly surprised.

Also, I probably will check out a new StarWars MMO.  At the moment, I spend most of my online leisure time in City of Heroes, and enjoy that very much.  Other MMOs that interest me are Stargate and Star Trek.  My favourite genres are sci-fi and superhero :)  I grew up watching StarTrek and StarWars, and reading superhero comics.

Originally posted by Gravez

Originally posted by Fishermage

 

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Originally posted by Gravez

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Originally posted by Fishermage

 

 
 

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Originally posted by Gravez
Right and they don't need to apologize. If something is wrong they usually fix it within days, they don't wait years or months to address it. This is the huge fundamental difference between SOE and other game developers. They will never get it until people put their foot down and forget that it's "just" $15 a month. You are paying people to do a crappy job.

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Actually people HAVE put their collective feet down. It has had no effect on them.

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Exactally, this is my point. Maybe something needs to be done more public.

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That is what we are doing here -- giving them the worst word-of-mouth in the industry. None of it will have an effect until Smedley is gone, however.
 

 

Well maybe a website where people who've been misled or lied to about MMOs is created. Kind of like a real estate scam where you invest money on false pretences of future development that never pan out. It would have to involve an intense scrutiny of the ULA etc, but basically a bait and switch that hasn't been tried to my knowledge against MMO companies.

The Federal Trade Commission has an online database that tracks complaints made about MMO companies, if the complaints relate to violations of consumer rights.  I have the link kicking around somewhere, but you could probably google it.  Complaints aren't made public though.  For that, a website where people could post their experiences with various companies might be a good idea.  These forums seem to serve that function to a degree.  I like the game-rating system here that also allows you to make comments.

The only thing that messes up these boards in my view is viral marketers illegal posing as players and doing word of mouth marketing.   If another actual players likes something that I don't, that's all well and good.  However, when you have people posing as players, and posting things that show they've never actually played a game, and then you have them making outrageously misleading statements designed to recruit people, that's a problem.  The FTC also investigates this, however, if your complaint is evidence based.