All Posts by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Hadean

Whether "SWG is the worst game ever" is not the point. The cadaver of that quaint little game is pretty much irrelevant at this point.  What is relevant however is $OE's questionable business ethics. With fraudulent bait & switch tactics I would hardly call it "bullshit" when it is clearly documented.

 

Shall we pretend it never happened? Perhaps turn a blind eye to such practices? Maybe we can pull out a nice EULA argument from that ever-so-ready hat of tricks. Perhaps fraud does not exactly bleep on every person's moral radar. Some of us however find this particularly offensive. But hey, everyone is different.

 

Some of us just prefer to call a spade a spade concerning this company.

 

All business ethics are questionable from a consumers point of view. If it were fraud people would have gone to jail. Smedly isn't doing time so obviously his legal staff is better than yours. If you don't like a compnies practices don't buy their products. There is no "we". Your opinion is your own. Don't expect everyone to fall into lockstep because you think or feel that way.

Does viral marketing exist? Yes. Does SoE do it? Maybe. Does it work? Sometimes.

 

Actually if a fraud charge can be "proven" people "may" go to jail would be more accurate.  To prove this allegation, one needs to demonstrate intent to knowingly mislead consumers for the purpose of damaging them financially.
 

Two bars exist here that make prosecution challenging.  Number one is the proof of financial damage.  SOE provided refunds for the expansion that they seemed to badly misrepresent in the two dev chats leading up to its release.  This addressed the most obvious financial damage that was done to consumers.  At the time, people were in contact with their state attorney general regarding this issue.  I expect that this was a factor that led to the massive refunds.

Some people that requested a subscription refund, and copied their attorney general, again on the basis of fraud complaints, say that they even received months worth of time refunded to them. 

I think a case still exists for damage in that many people who bought time on the basis of the misleading dev chats still haven't been refunded.  This leads to the second criterion for prosecution though, proof of intent.

What's publicly known is that SOE was marketting profession revamps and features in an expansion while they were secretly developing the NGE.  The NGE would delete these very professions and make all related features in the expansion useless.  We also know that SOE staff were aware of the NGE plans before the public was, and that some requested transfers because of ethical concerns.  We know that Jeff Freeman felt the marketting at the time of the NGE was dishonest, and he said he felt very badly about that.  All of this certainly points to intent.  Is this evidence conclusive though?  I'm really not sure.  I'd like to think so, but "proof" in a legal forum can get very technical. 

In other cases what's been needed are things like insider testimony and/or documents that clearly prove malicious intent (e.g. pintos, tobacco etc.)

Authorities may still be investigating this situation regarding both issues: material damage and intent.  They may be looking for the "smoking memo" so to speak.  They may also subpoena current or former SOE/LEC employees to explore the issue of intent.  The statute of limitations hasn't run out on the NGE yet.  The authorities may also have concluded that the expansion refunds and natural consequences associated with the NGE are punishment enough to deter similar action in the future.  I've been in law enforcment myself, when I was a younger man, and I know that decisions regarding how to use resources like this get made every day.

I'm quite sure though that the FTC is taking a look at the ethics of MMO companies.  How do I know this?  'Cause they told me :)

P.S. If SOE invested as much into excellent service as they do into legal consultation and viral marketting, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place.  Better for customers, better for SOE.  I really don't think the people calling the shots embrace this philosophy though--more's the pity, for everyone.

Originally posted by Suvroc

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

This is, by the way, now a criminal offence thanks to the Federal Trade Commission.

 

I'd be very interested in knowing what exactly was the catalyst(s) for making this a criminal offense.

I have a copy of the article that discussed this when it became legislation...somewhere lol :)  Let me try to recall:  There was research done regarding viral marketting with regard to certain products.  The research findings indicated that marketters intentionally misrepresented themselves for the purpose of gaining consumers' trust.  Having gained this trust by deceptive means, they would then recommend a particular product or service.  People felt duped by this and thought it should be illegal (akin to fraud), and the FTC agreed.  This lead to legislative action ^_^.  Go FTC, I love those people.
 

Originally posted by Gishgeron

Originally posted by Rhoklaw

I'm not really defending viral marketing, just saying theres a bigger picture involved with this discussion. We don't live in a perfect world, so all I'm saying is, I don't see a whole lot of discussion of ANTI gold selling / powerleveling / item selling businesses, so why pick on SOE?

SOE is a bad boy, I agree.

Theres just more to it than what your thread discusses.

 

  But there really isn't.

  You see, powerleveling, gold selling....these are problems brought to us (the consumer, and fan) by outside parties that operate AGAINST the company.  The company isn't trying to treat us bad, someone else is just trying to profit off them in a negative way.  In THIS situation...the negative element is being brought to us directly by the company itself.  It is an immediate blanket of lies and lack of personal faith in their work.  Viral Marketing is essentially selling a lie to your fan, and spitting in his face in regard to his own right to hear a fair testimony.

  This discussion is centered primarily on viral marketing.  It does not delve into those other topics, because they hold no bearing on this one.  They are outside influences, this is an inside one.  We need not discuss every sin in the bible just to discuss the sin of lust.  Its perfectly fine to simply discuss lust.  Equally, it is fine to simply discuss viral marketing.  It does not matter what other issues there are...you can start a thread and discuss those.  The existence of other issues does not weaken or invalidate the seriousness of THIS one, however.

Very well said :)
 

Originally posted by Rhoklaw

Well, like someone already said, actually I think it was you, SOE isn't the only company to do this and it's been around for ages.

In fact, 99% of infomercials are viral marketing and I see enough of those every day to make me puke. If this thread was advertised for $19.95, I'd question whether or not it was a viral marketing attempt.

Saying everyone else does it, and that this thread itself is also possibly suspect seems like another kind of rationalization for viral marketting, which you again seem to be defending, if it's done by SOE.

There's a name for this specific kind of rationalizing too, if you're interested; it's called projection.  If you want to read up on it, you can do that in the following link.  Just an option mind you; it's really your call:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection#Consciously_recognising_one.E2.80.99s_own_traits_in_someone_else

You also asked how Blizzard is nice to people in one of your posts.  Here's a link that compares their customer service to SOE's:  http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/190067

I've played 3 MMO's (well 4 if you consider CoH and CoV two games).  In the thread I just copied here, I compare my experience in all 3, as an actual consumer. 

You say also that Blizzard doesn't have to resort to viral marketting because they're sitting on a cash cow.  I would argue that no one "has to" resort to viral marketting.  If you have a good product, and if you treat people with respect, your service will sell itself.  You just honestly need to let people know of its existence.  You certainly don't need to con people into giving you their money.

If Blizzard has a "cash cow" it's because they took the time to build it right, and to deal with their customers honestly and respectfully.  This has paid off for them.  SOE appears to have invested in viral marketting instead of excellence in quality and customer service.  Blizzard has been understandably successful; SOE has not.  The execs at SOE seem to be the only ones who don't understand how this works.  Well maybe them and their lawyers, and their viral marketters.

Originally posted by Rhoklaw

I agree, but theres a lot wrong with our world that will never get fixed or ever go away. Remember how people joked about nice guys always finishing last? Guess what, they do.

I'm sure you believe that, and I bet Smed does too.  Ironically, one of the things that makes WoW so successful is how "nice" they are to their customers. 

Originally posted by Rhoklaw

Uhm, this is just the tip of the iceberg for MMO issues. We got gold farming, exploiters, hackers, cheaters, item selling and a multitude of player run businesses that make a profit off these companies hard work. So, while SOE may seem a bit criminal here, lets face it, so is 90% of China then.

If big companies like SOE can't buckle down and stop gold and item selling. Prevent their games from being hacked and exploited, why shouldn't they just fight fire with fire?

I dislike SOE just as much as the next guy, but I really don't like people poking sticks in someones eye when they know other people have logs stuck up their arses.

Ah the old "other people are committing worse crimes, so this one should be overlooked defense."  There's a name for this actually: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalization_%28psychology%29
 

Why are you defending viral marketting anyways?

Originally posted by BushMonkey

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Can't say NGE huh lol, o.k.  Well, lemme see what comes to mind.  Prolly the time I logged in, in my house, and there was some kinda tree spawned in front of the exit.  I was stuck there.  /unstick or whatever, didn't work, logging out and back in didn't work.  So I petitioned.  No response ever lol, yeah fun times.  Loved that speedy customer service.

Then there was a time when the sith commander wouldn't follow you down slopes, even if you crawled down them weaving back and forth diagonally to keep him right on your butt.  A bunch of us had the same problem at the same time--bugreported it, petitioned it.  No response, ever.  And that trial didn't come around except every few weeks.  Months later, literally, a dev posted that the were looking at it.  Long after it was brought to the devs attention it was fixed, but then deleted entirely with the release of the thing I"m not supossed to talk about lol.  I was on my last unlock quest when all the village disappeared for reasons I'm also not supposed to mention -_^.  That really did suck though.

Then just being a medic after my MasterDoc/TKM was deleted.  My heals healed enemies 0_o.  That was whacked.  On top of that though, the group heal aggroed everything on screen causing instant death--loads of fun there.  Basically all my character was good for was rezzing BUUUT, when I'd hit the rez button, the corpse wouldn't rez, and sometimes it would slide like 60 meters away, out of my rez range of course.

I remember trying a PVP event during this version of the game.  If you hit group rez on one team member all of your team would rez right?  Well not when he slides of the screen and you're killed while standing and looking at the spot he used to be.

It also totally sucked when I had multiple chat windows open, and due to a conflict with chat and movement coding, this rendered you unable to speak or move, at all.  We sent mail to each other to come up with a work around.  After we figured it out, and told the devs about it, we got a message from the devs in game explaining our own work around.  I'm glad they let everyone know, but I thinking they might have a better idea of how to fix their own work.

Then there was the time I logged in and was stuck in the original space station tutorial.  I couldn't interact with the console you needed to in order to enter the main game.  Couldn't fix it, petitioned, never got a response ever.  I had to kill the avatar after a few days of non-response, just so I could join my friends on the same server.

Then there was the time I logged in, and the keybinds had gone completely whack.  All by itself, they switched themselves to some other template.  Again, asked for help, none ever came, figured it out by myself, and then had the privilege of helping other players who had the same thing happen to them, and who also received no ingame support.

Then after being told that "we're working on all the bugs and issues, you can expect better quality and customer service anytime now," instead of getting what we hoped for, we got that unmentionable thing.

You know what really chaps my ass though?  It's when people can honestly look at this kind of utterly abysmal customer service, and have the audacity to say that players complained too much about SOE's  busted game. 

 

 

  But other than all that it was Starwarsy and Iconic right?
Seriously tho that is one long dirty laundry list.  And good for a laugh /salute ArcAngel3

Lol, good one. /return salute.
 

Of the many things I enjoy about this forum, one is that I can still interact with the excellent community of people that I used to play SWG with :)

Originally posted by Fishermage

 

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Originally posted by ArcAngel3

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Originally posted by Fishermage

 

 
 

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Originally posted by Costanza420

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Originally posted by Fishermage
 
 
 

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Originally posted by Costanza420
 

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Originally posted by ArcAngel3
 

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Originally posted by Costanza420
 
Whatever, Fisher. Not particularly interested in anything you have to say at this point, since you've proven all you can do is talk in circles until the other person gives up.
You never answered the question regarding who was "losing it" over the KOTOR news. That was how many days ago?
 

 

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Heya Costanza.  I think you asked me about this as well.  I've just reviewed one of the many threads with the KOTOR MMO announcement. 
 
What caught my attention, among other things, happened to be the number of posts that say things like:
This game is gonna tank cuz it's not going to be a sandbox,
This game is gonna tank because StarWars fans are impossible to please,
StarWars fans who celebrate this as a possible end to the NGE era are small-minded idiots that have no life etc. etc.
Feel free to review the threads for yourself if you like, there are quite a number.  I'm sure you'll see all of these negative responses to the announcement.  To me, they seemed numerous, and some are quite intense.
People appear disturbed by the announcement and determined to cast the game in a bad light, as well as anyone who thinks it might be enjoyable.
There is also a fresh influx of posts that go along with this saying that SOE was not to blame for the disaster that was and is SWG.  
The messages we're being barraged with lately seem to be saying things like, KOTOR online is going to suck, if you think it's going to be good then you suck, if you think SOE screwed up SWG then you suck, and it's actually your fault that SOE screwed up SWG. 
Based on all of these observations, I concluded that some people are disturbed by the KOTOR news, they also come across as very defensive of SOE, and hostile to players.
If you don't see these posts in the numerous threads related to the KOTOR MMO, I don't really know what to say to that.  Maybe you don't want to see them for some reason (shrugs).  I guess if you don't want to see them, you won't.
I'll copy paste just a few of the responses to vets celebrating the KOTOR MMO, so you can get an idea of what I'm talking about:
Here's example number 1 :
"I dont even know why they try, Star Wars fans are some of the most finnicky people on Earth. Making a star wars game that appeals to that crowd is like trying to please your mother in law. No matter how hard you try, there will be bitching."
and now for example number 2:
"And what did you win?
You and others have made SWG Vets and Players look like a ton of whiners who get upset over every damn little thing that happens. You haven't changed anything! Go up to the AoC boards and have a look there, kinda looks like the same thing down here... No you haven't won jack, all some of you have done is make things worse for people who do give a damn about MMO's and the MMO they play.
Anyway I'm sure you or swgtester or one of the other upset Vets will come along, flame me, call me a Fanboi and act like your still nailed to some kinda cross."
Actually didn't you also tell me to get off my cross because I noticed an increase in posts attempting to silence vets?  There's one new thread blaming everyone but SOE for the problems in SWG, especially the players.  Another thread (this one?) was written for the sole purpose of having vet posts locked.  In addition to OP's that attempt to silence players, you have new posters to this forum jumping in and agreeing that veteran players are idiots, are to blame for everything wrong in SWG, and should be silenced. 
No, I've just re-read it all again, no one's making this up; you apparently just refuse to see it, and you seem to be saying the same kinds of things yourself.
 

 

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1. The only person who seems to THINK it's going to be sandbox pre-CU is whatever handle he's going by at the time ... you know the one. Everyone else KNOWS it's not going to be.
2. Star Wars fans (of which I consider myself one) ARE impossible to please, because Star Wars means different things to different people. Look at the prequels for exactly how divided the fanbase of an IP an become.
I read the rest, but it's too long to quote.
Are SOME people saying the things you claim? Yes. VERY, VERY FEW. The rest are saying the same things the rest of us, both current and former players, are saying ... I hope it's good, and I'm guardedly optimistic about it. That's it.
Very few people are "losing it."
And yes, I did tell you to "get off your cross" (and got a nice suspension for it, btw) because of the idea that there is this organized campaign to "silence the vets," which is so utterly ridiculous I don't know where to begin.
There's a difference between seeing the KOTOR news for what it IS, and agreeing that the "vets" (which, btw ,you do not have exclusive rights to) are trying to take credit for something that has nothing to do with them.
 

 

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He never said it was an organized campaign, nor did he imply it. Where do you keep getting this wild idea?
 

 

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Oh please. Did he specifically refer to an organized campaign? No. But when you see references (veiled and otherwise, and certainly on other forums) to an organized viral marketing effort, then see posts like his, it's an easy conclusion to draw that that was what he was referring to.
Fisher, for future reference, don't bother responding to my posts again, since this is the last time I will respond to you. I don't like you, and I have no desire to interact with you ever again.

 

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Then don't respond to me. that's your prerogative. I don't believe Arcangel is one of the bigger proponents of the organized viral effort theory, and besides, one should treat each person as an individual and try not to lump everyone together.
Either way, SONY has already been caught making organized viral marketing efforts by creating fake players on the internet, why is it a stretch to think they would do so here? Not that it has anything to do with Arc's post, but since you brought it up I thought it worth discussing.
Oh, and I don't like you either, but I will continue to show you more respect than you show me or others on these boards. I'm just like that.
here's an interesting story revealing what we are dealing with when we deal with SONY:
 
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/games/archives/2006/12/11/new_sony_viral_marketing_ploy_angers_consumers.html
 

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Wow great link Fisher.  I created a thread to discuss viral marketting.  Ironically this has come about via our debate with a mutual acquaintance lol.  Now I really am suspicious 0_o.
Btw, have you noticed that the trend of KOTOR is going to suck and you vets have nothing to be happy about posts has abated since the pattern was highlighted?

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yes indeedy. I was going to mention it in an earlier post, but I forgot in that I was multitasking at the time. I'm glad, since I am pretty excited about the game, whether it's gonna be a sandbox or not. As long as people are not lied to as they were with SONY, and they produce a quality, WORKING product, the game is liable to be quite good.

It's the LYING that was the main problem with SONY, and still is to this day.

Agreed, as much as I hated many of the bugs and issues, and the poor customer service response to those,  I found being misled to be the most irksome experience in SWG.

/tiphat to Jestor :)  I love the way you've chosen to speak out about something close to your heart.  I also just enjoy your shows lol.  Thanks for the fun and for promoting consumer rights in your own unique and entertaining way.

Originally posted by Fishermage

 

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Originally posted by Costanza420

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Originally posted by Fishermage

 

 
 

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Originally posted by Costanza420

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Originally posted by ArcAngel3

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Originally posted by Costanza420
 
Whatever, Fisher. Not particularly interested in anything you have to say at this point, since you've proven all you can do is talk in circles until the other person gives up.
You never answered the question regarding who was "losing it" over the KOTOR news. That was how many days ago?

 

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Heya Costanza.  I think you asked me about this as well.  I've just reviewed one of the many threads with the KOTOR MMO announcement. 
 
What caught my attention, among other things, happened to be the number of posts that say things like:
This game is gonna tank cuz it's not going to be a sandbox,
This game is gonna tank because StarWars fans are impossible to please,
StarWars fans who celebrate this as a possible end to the NGE era are small-minded idiots that have no life etc. etc.
Feel free to review the threads for yourself if you like, there are quite a number.  I'm sure you'll see all of these negative responses to the announcement.  To me, they seemed numerous, and some are quite intense.
People appear disturbed by the announcement and determined to cast the game in a bad light, as well as anyone who thinks it might be enjoyable.
There is also a fresh influx of posts that go along with this saying that SOE was not to blame for the disaster that was and is SWG.  
The messages we're being barraged with lately seem to be saying things like, KOTOR online is going to suck, if you think it's going to be good then you suck, if you think SOE screwed up SWG then you suck, and it's actually your fault that SOE screwed up SWG. 
Based on all of these observations, I concluded that some people are disturbed by the KOTOR news, they also come across as very defensive of SOE, and hostile to players.
If you don't see these posts in the numerous threads related to the KOTOR MMO, I don't really know what to say to that.  Maybe you don't want to see them for some reason (shrugs).  I guess if you don't want to see them, you won't.
I'll copy paste just a few of the responses to vets celebrating the KOTOR MMO, so you can get an idea of what I'm talking about:
Here's example number 1 :
"I dont even know why they try, Star Wars fans are some of the most finnicky people on Earth. Making a star wars game that appeals to that crowd is like trying to please your mother in law. No matter how hard you try, there will be bitching."
and now for example number 2:
"And what did you win?
You and others have made SWG Vets and Players look like a ton of whiners who get upset over every damn little thing that happens. You haven't changed anything! Go up to the AoC boards and have a look there, kinda looks like the same thing down here... No you haven't won jack, all some of you have done is make things worse for people who do give a damn about MMO's and the MMO they play.
Anyway I'm sure you or swgtester or one of the other upset Vets will come along, flame me, call me a Fanboi and act like your still nailed to some kinda cross."
Actually didn't you also tell me to get off my cross because I noticed an increase in posts attempting to silence vets?  There's one new thread blaming everyone but SOE for the problems in SWG, especially the players.  Another thread (this one?) was written for the sole purpose of having vet posts locked.  In addition to OP's that attempt to silence players, you have new posters to this forum jumping in and agreeing that veteran players are idiots, are to blame for everything wrong in SWG, and should be silenced. 
No, I've just re-read it all again, no one's making this up; you apparently just refuse to see it, and you seem to be saying the same kinds of things yourself.

 

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1. The only person who seems to THINK it's going to be sandbox pre-CU is whatever handle he's going by at the time ... you know the one. Everyone else KNOWS it's not going to be.
2. Star Wars fans (of which I consider myself one) ARE impossible to please, because Star Wars means different things to different people. Look at the prequels for exactly how divided the fanbase of an IP an become.
I read the rest, but it's too long to quote.
Are SOME people saying the things you claim? Yes. VERY, VERY FEW. The rest are saying the same things the rest of us, both current and former players, are saying ... I hope it's good, and I'm guardedly optimistic about it. That's it.
Very few people are "losing it."
And yes, I did tell you to "get off your cross" (and got a nice suspension for it, btw) because of the idea that there is this organized campaign to "silence the vets," which is so utterly ridiculous I don't know where to begin.
There's a difference between seeing the KOTOR news for what it IS, and agreeing that the "vets" (which, btw ,you do not have exclusive rights to) are trying to take credit for something that has nothing to do with them.

 

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He never said it was an organized campaign, nor did he imply it. Where do you keep getting this wild idea?
 

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Oh please. Did he specifically refer to an organized campaign? No. But when you see references (veiled and otherwise, and certainly on other forums) to an organized viral marketing effort, then see posts like his, it's an easy conclusion to draw that that was what he was referring to.
Fisher, for future reference, don't bother responding to my posts again, since this is the last time I will respond to you. I don't like you, and I have no desire to interact with you ever again.

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Then don't respond to me. that's your prerogative. I don't believe Arcangel is one of the bigger proponents of the organized viral effort theory, and besides, one should treat each person as an individual and try not to lump everyone together.

Either way, SONY has already been caught making organized viral marketing efforts by creating fake players on the internet, why is it a stretch to think they would do so here? Not that it has anything to do with Arc's post, but since you brought it up I thought it worth discussing.

Oh, and I don't like you either, but I will continue to show you more respect than you show me or others on these boards. I'm just like that.

here's an interesting story revealing what we are dealing with when we deal with SONY:

 

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/games/archives/2006/12/11/new_sony_viral_marketing_ploy_angers_consumers.html

 

Wow great link Fisher.  I created a thread to discuss viral marketting.  Ironically this has come about via our debate with a mutual acquaintance lol.  Now I really am suspicious 0_o.

Btw, have you noticed that the trend of KOTOR is going to suck and you vets have nothing to be happy about posts has abated since the pattern was highlighted?