All Posts by ArcAngel3

People highlighted some very real problems with the original game (bugs, incomplete quests, lack of content, buff lines, mind pool attacks that couldn't be countered effectively).  SOE's answers to these problems were the CU and the NGE.  Both of these answers were extremely unwanted by the players.  In fact work done in consultation with players was scrapped when WoW envy took hold.

One of the devs for the NGE explained clearly that it was designed in part based on input from focus groups that contained ZERO current players of the game.  It was designed to cater to the wants of some other target group, not the current players of SWG.  So, to blame the players is really off-base in light of what people know about the history of the game.

Originally posted by kryten

Originally posted by Obee

Originally posted by Jatwhal

Originally posted by Death1942

SWG dies,  SOE and the current players lose

SWG dies without any classic servers being released.  SOE, the current payers and the vets lose

 

in short...we all lose

"The current "PLAYERS" and the vets"??   I'm sorry but many current players are vets and some of us believe that you quitters aren't vets.

I've been playing Ultima Online since release and SWG since release.... I am a Vet !

 

No, if you've played both of those games since release, you're a masochist.

 

 

lol

it is so strange to see people defend this game so. on one hand they say we ruined the game by being forced out by management and then sometimes they say we arent even vets. i suppose we should take it as acompliment as it seems we are all things to them!

Yup, it's pretty bizarre isn't it.  One minute we're the vocal minority, the next minute we're ruining the game with all of our criticism of the NGE, and the next we're said to be the cause of the NGE.  You'd almost think some people who post here have some kind of agenda... 

Originally posted by Mackerni

I never liked the Combat Upgrade, primarly because of the levels introduced in the game, but there were some things improved like being able to other armor other than composite.

I remember one of the Devs posting on the forums like six months before the CU came about the changes that would take place - and I remember that they were COMPLETELY different than what the CU was.

I was a HUGE supporter of these changes. They seemed to fix a lot of things in the game I thought was broken in the pre-CU system. Anyways, I would like to see those documents again, and if all possible, see the progress of changes they made to their words before CU "hit the fan".

Kudos in advance to the person who helps me. (or at least tells me that it's impossible to retrieve this information now)

I could give you a link to the documents, but I've noticed that those get edited by moderators.  I'm concluding that the link is taboo then here for some reason.  Some of the correspondents that participated in the work done on the CURB actually post on these forums, so you might hear something from one of them :)
 

Originally posted by DrChicken

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by DrChicken

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by DrChicken

I completely agree. The player base had a lot more to do with the undesirable changes than the supposed "schemers" at SOE and LA. I'll even go one step further - I blame the players of every cookie-cutter MMO out there for the madness of the NGE. Why in the hell would SOE/LA make such steep changes to the game? They anticipated higher sub numbers if the game was overly-simplified to a level seen in WoW. If MMO gamers weren't satisfied with the **** that these developers push out nowadays, we wouldn't be talking about the NGE, and we wouldn't have a SWG Veteran Refuge. Too bad that they are.

 

You know, in another thread you just tried to convice us that players really have no influence over MMO's.  Of course, that thread was talking about player feedback having a postive impact.  Now, you blame players for negative changes in the MMO industry.

I think I understand your bias. 

Do you blame the players of WoW for enjoying a fun, functional and highly populated game?  What's to blame?

Is it the players' fault that companies like SOE see WoW's success, and try to take from their slice of the pie by coming up with a busted ass copy, and pushing it on an unsuspecting playerbase, after advertising something completely different?   Players didn't ask them to do this.  Dan Rubenfield and Jeff Freeman et al. came up with these plans within SOE when they were told to make the game better, and make it successful.  Their solution was crap, and they are responsible for their own work and decisions, not the players that were then cursed by it.

 

You have a habit for seeking me out - that you do. I applaud your efforts, but you fail to see the big picture. In the meantime, I'm sorry if my postulating is too complicated for you. I enjoy the fact that you can over-simplify my argument - good for you. I guess that makes things all the more simpler. My previous post was in regard to how the profit-margin is king - a group of disgruntled gamers cannot persuade any change in a profitable company if they do just that, make profits. This last post was in regard to profit-motive. If you have a large player base that is satisfied with the mediocre, then why bother trying to surpass that mediocrity and make something new and exciting? There's no insurance on how much profit you'll make if you use an entirely new system, not a system that is tried and true. This is why WoW, however good and popular you say it is right now, is ultimately a stigma to the MMO market. This is also the reason why the NGE was made.

Lol, your postulating isn't too complicated for me.  Was that intentionally insulting, or do you just come across that way?
 

 

That was intentional, my friend. I'm sorry for it, but I tend to respond in kind when insults are made against me. I'll scoot along now - I'm not interested in proving how right I am anymore. "Move along."

Feel free to scroll up for further clarifications if you're interested in further dialogue.  As for being intentionally insulting, yeah I kind of figured you were.  It doesn't really help your argument, or your credibility in my view.  As for responding to insults you claim were made against you, will I certainly didn't intentionally insult you at any point, so I think your so-called retalition was unnecessary.
 

If you found something I said insulting, I don't mind you pointing that out.  If I can see it coming across that way, I'd gladly express myself differently.  For the record, I respect you as a person, even though I disagree with your views at times, perhaps strongly.

Something else I've noticed.  The more people talk about what actually happened regarding SWG, the more SOE defenders seem to resort to insults.  It usually starts with some kind of p.r. spin--like players are to blame for the NGE--but quickly degenerates to name-calling or more clever insults when embarassing facts come to light.

You're very articulate, and clearly very intelligent, but I see them same old routine here, just with bigger words.  Lol, at least I was insulted cleverly :)

Originally posted by DrChicken

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by DrChicken

I completely agree. The player base had a lot more to do with the undesirable changes than the supposed "schemers" at SOE and LA. I'll even go one step further - I blame the players of every cookie-cutter MMO out there for the madness of the NGE. Why in the hell would SOE/LA make such steep changes to the game? They anticipated higher sub numbers if the game was overly-simplified to a level seen in WoW. If MMO gamers weren't satisfied with the **** that these developers push out nowadays, we wouldn't be talking about the NGE, and we wouldn't have a SWG Veteran Refuge. Too bad that they are.

 

You know, in another thread you just tried to convice us that players really have no influence over MMO's.  Of course, that thread was talking about player feedback having a postive impact.  Now, you blame players for negative changes in the MMO industry.

I think I understand your bias. 

Do you blame the players of WoW for enjoying a fun, functional and highly populated game?  What's to blame?

Is it the players' fault that companies like SOE see WoW's success, and try to take from their slice of the pie by coming up with a busted ass copy, and pushing it on an unsuspecting playerbase, after advertising something completely different?   Players didn't ask them to do this.  Dan Rubenfield and Jeff Freeman et al. came up with these plans within SOE when they were told to make the game better, and make it successful.  Their solution was crap, and they are responsible for their own work and decisions, not the players that were then cursed by it.

 

You have a habit for seeking me out - that you do. I applaud your efforts, but you fail to see the big picture. In the meantime, I'm sorry if my postulating is too complicated for you. I enjoy the fact that you can over-simplify my argument - good for you. I guess that makes things all the more simpler. My previous post was in regard to how the profit-margin is king - a group of disgruntled gamers cannot persuade any change in a profitable company if they do just that, make profits. This last post was in regard to profit-motive. If you have a large player base that is satisfied with the mediocre, then why bother trying to surpass that mediocrity and make something new and exciting? There's no insurance on how much profit you'll make if you use an entirely new system, not a system that is tried and true. This is why WoW, however good and popular you say it is right now, is ultimately a stigma to the MMO market. This is also the reason why the NGE was made.

Lol, your postulating isn't too complicated for me.  Was that intentionally insulting, or do you just come across that way?

And, the NGE was made because SOE added 1 and 1 and came up with eleven, not because WoW was successful.  If SOE learned anything from Bizzard, truly, the NGE would not have been their solution to their subscription decline.

Also, if your company suddenly experiences a massive subscription drop off, do you really think that player feedback won't be considered?  If it isn't, it should be.  Maybe you're right though, maybe SOE doesn't look at things like that.  They've surprised me time and again with how they do things.  It's like they have a very unique sort of spurious logic that guides their decisions.

Also, just so you know, I'm not seeking you out.  Apparently the same topics interest us albeit for different reasons.

And, I didn't mean to oversimplify your postion on anything.  It seemed to me in one post that you said players have virtually no influence, and then in another, you seemed to give them an awful lot of power.  That came across as contradictory, and made me wonder if you have some kind of agenda.
 

Originally posted by Jatwhal

Originally posted by Obee

Originally posted by Jatwhal

Originally posted by Ginaz

The only thing swg vets MIGHT have done is to make sure the next  Star Wars mmo didn't involve soe in any way.  Other than that, the development of a new SW mmo would probably have happened anyway, given how poorly swg did in subs and sales throughout its history, pre-cu through to nge.

 

Poor subs? wait one of the other Vet*h8rs  believes that the hundreds of thousands of you all made the changes come about........

To the OP and all the Vet*h8rs..... So then SOE isn't such a "bad" company.  Afterall you purchased an MMORPG that clearly stated on their box   "Game Experience May Change During Online Play."

Even then players who weren't happy got a recourse they weren't necessarily entitled to.  Nice going SOE

If you read my other post SWG moved in the direction of what players "were" asking for and the brainless thought of we need to copy WoW, give em what they want.

 

 

"Game Experience May Change During Online Play" is part of the ESRB rating.  It is not a reference to the developers dismantling the product by turning it into the single worst MMO on the market.  It is a reference to the fact than a "T" rated game may include content that doesn't fit inot the "T" rating, becuase other players might say or do things that are not confined to the rating on the box.

Your other posts are just as clueless as the one I'm responding to.  The changes made to SWG were not made for the folks playing the game, they were made in the hopes of making the game more appealing to the folks who didn't play the game.  The end result was a game that appealed to neither the folks who used to play it, nor the folks who didn't play it.  Outside of the Star Wars IP, the game barely appeals to the folks who currently play it.

 

 

Well no I disagree, it's not about the ESRB rating as there is a statement that covers the aspect you are talking about.

On the contrary your clueless if you believe my other posts are, In fact if you believe those to be clueless I question how much you played SWG and how much time you spent on the official forums.

You're talking about the statements in the EULA reserving SOE's right to enhance or update their game over time.

What you quoted was in fact related to the ESRB warning.  So you're making a valid point, but quoting the wrong information.

If you want to research your argument a bit further, you may want to look at some case-law related to EULA's, and how in some cases they have been deemed unconscionable contracts.  They have in fact been judged at times to be not binding as a result.  In one case a company was ordered by a judge to change their EULA and pay punitive damages because it contradicted relevant legislation.

Furthermore, reserving the right to update a game, does not allow a company to market one service while they are in fact developing and planning to deliver something else entirely.  This is what would have got the State Attorney General's attention.  It also got the attention of the Federal Trade Commission, and rightly so.   Changes to videogames may not interest law enforcement agencies, but allegedly fradulent marketting certainly does.

Originally posted by DrChicken

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by DrChicken

People need to realize that the new KOTOR MMO and SWG are completely unrelated. It seems pretty arrogant and presumptuous to assume that whining SWG vets brought about a new MMO. EA/BioWare doesn't owe anything to SWG vets, and this is what makes me so excited. Hopefully, instead of an SWG-replacement we'll see a completely new game that will amply reflect the Star Wars universe in the light that it should be - not some pre-CU-related wonderland for the dejected to roam about aimlessly. Complaining about SWG didn't accomplish anything, it kind of feels like wasted time. It just comes to show how us little folk really have no say when profits are king - SOE is still alive and kicking, and they know that they can continue to pass off their cheap wares as quality entertainment in a bid to achieve profits, not customer satisfaction.

So the people who complained and got refunds for the expansion accomplished...nothing.
 

And the people who complained and got subscription refunds got..nothing.

And the people who asked for camps back and got them got ... nothing.

And all the people who highlighted SOE's actions so that they wouldn't profit from the NGE scam got...nothing.

And all the people who wrote to LA and said for pity sake, please give the StarWars IP to another, more reputable company have nothing to celebrate re. KOTOR online.

You know, I think you and I have a very different definition for the word "nothing."  I don't think this word means what you think it means.

Also, again, you're misrepresenting my comments, making them out to be something that is more easily disputed.  You're pretty good at that actually.  To be very clear, I did not say that SWG vets brought about a new StarWars MMO.  If you want to argue with someone about that, you'll have to find someone who said it first, that won't be me.

What I've said is that players speaking up when they were mistreated has yielded some positive results.  You can disagree, but I've listed some of them, so I don't know what your disagreement would be based on.  I've also said that speaking up is only one of many factors related to any postive outcomes.  I never made the grandiose generalizations you seem to want to dispute.  In fact, I would also dispute the oversimplified viewpoint that consumer complaints about SWG caused the birth of a new StarWars MMO.  I don't see a simple cause and effect relationship here.  Postive correlation perhaps, along with a number of other variables, some more significant, sure.

 

I politely disagree. SOE is still here to do what they did to SWG - they can still walk over the player base and rinse and repeat what they did as far as the NGE and CU. Have the "vets" forced SOE to acknowledge their profit-motives and how they affect their games? No. Have the "vets" provided an example for all other developers and publishers out there that such actions are intolerable (you even point these things out for me)? No, Funcom, among many, many others, illustrated that these shenanigans continue to exist in the MMO department. The real changes were never made -all the "vets" got were some puny little refunds and some petty content added. Real change has yet to occur. Sorry.

Well, I'll agree with you on this: more change in the MMO industry in the direction of honest communication with consumers would be very welcome.  Working on it :)  This stuff takes time.  The last piece of legislation I consulted on professionally took about 10 years to come to fruition.  Bill C-13, fyi.

I don't think the expansion refunds were "puny" to SOE either, but I respect your right  describe them this way.

I also don't think the lost revenue due to mass cancellations after the NGE was puny either, but again, we can agree to disagree.

Also, some of the restored content wasn't "petty" to those that really wanted it back.  To others though, yes I agree, the changes were much too little too late.

Originally posted by Jatwhal

OMG yeah I bet the AG took calls from whiny gamers........

I think I just pissed myself on that one.

You really don't know what happened in response to the NGE do you?  The more you post about this stuff, the more it seems you've been out of the loop.

Originally posted by Obee

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

So the people who complained and got refunds for the expansion accomplished...nothing.
 

And the people who complained and got subscription refunds got..nothing.

And the people who asked for camps back and got them got ... nothing.

And all the people who highlighted SOE's actions so that they wouldn't profit from the NGE scam got...nothing.

And all the people who wrote to LA and said for pity sake, please give the StarWars IP to another, more reputable company have nothing to celebrate re. KOTOR online.

You know, I think you and I have a very different definition for the word "nothing."  I don't think this word means what you think it means.

Also, again, you're misrepresenting my comments, making them out to be something that is more easily disputed.  You're pretty good at that actually.  To be very clear, I did not say that SWG vets brought about a new StarWars MMO.  If you want to argue with someone about that, you'll have to find someone who said it first, that won't be me.

What I've said is that players speaking up when they were mistreated has yielded some positive results.  You can disagree, but I've listed some of them, so I don't know what your disagreement would be based on.  I've also said that speaking up is only one of many factors related to any postive outcomes.  I never made the grandiose generalizations you seem to want to dispute.  In fact, I would also dispute the oversimplified viewpoint that consumer complaints about SWG caused the birth of a new StarWars MMO.  I don't see a simple cause and effect relationship here.  Postive correlation perhaps, along with a number of other variables, some more significant, sure.

 

The only people who accomplished anything were the ones who contacted their State Attorney General about ToOW.  It wasn't heartfelt complaints that resulted in those refunds, it was the threat of severe fines.

I don't know of anyone who recieved a refund for pre-paid time due to the NGE.  It was SOE's policy to not offer any refunds for pre-paid time.  That was something that a large number of folks complained about in the weeks following the NGE.

Camps were not re-implemented to the game because of the current customers.  It was an attempt to make the game appeal to the folks who quit due to the NGE.  At the time camps were re-added, SOe had given up on the NGE appealing to new customers.

That isn't to say that we haven't kept people from trying the NGE version of SWG.  I'm sure we have.  The reason I don't view that as much of an accomplishment is because those folks could have tried the current game, and they still would have been very unlikely to subscribe to it.  The game is bad enough that it does a much better job of repelling new subscribers than anything we could ever do.

 

 

I'm thinking I should have used a different word than complaint for the title of this thread.  I mean player action, feedback, input etc..  Contacting your state attorney general would be an example of player action in my view--a complaint with teeth.  Some claims have been made that subscription refunds were also achieved via this channel.  One other player posted that he got months worth of sub time refunded by copying the attorney general with a complaint letter to SOE. 

I'm going to change the title of the thread because I think "complaint" has unintended connotations.

Originally posted by Rhoklaw

Remove players and add SOE? How about add SOE and emphasize players cause if you haven't realized, gaming companies actually do take players into consideration for the most part when it comes to making a game better.

Why SOE decided not to go with classic servers is a bigger mystery then why they implemented CU and NGE.

However, it's all water under the bridge now and all we can do is look forward. SWG will never be the same, but that doesn't mean it can't improve on its current standards.

That goes for all MMOs because SWG isn't the only game that has caught the angry attention of its player base.

Such as...

Anarchy Online
Asheron's Call 2
Shadowbane
Dark Age of Camelot
Auto Assault
Horizons ( now Istaria )
Dark and Light
Ultima Online
Vanguard
Age of Conan

Interesting list, I guess that's why I play City of Heroes and WoW.  Me and a few million other happy customers.
 

Originally posted by DrChicken

I completely agree. The player base had a lot more to do with the undesirable changes than the supposed "schemers" at SOE and LA. I'll even go one step further - I blame the players of every cookie-cutter MMO out there for the madness of the NGE. Why in the hell would SOE/LA make such steep changes to the game? They anticipated higher sub numbers if the game was overly-simplified to a level seen in WoW. If MMO gamers weren't satisfied with the **** that these developers push out nowadays, we wouldn't be talking about the NGE, and we wouldn't have a SWG Veteran Refuge. Too bad that they are.

You know, in another thread you just tried to convice us that players really have no influence over MMO's.  Of course, that thread was talking about player feedback having a postive impact.  Now, you blame players for negative changes in the MMO industry.

I think I understand your bias. 

Do you blame the players of WoW for enjoying a fun, functional and highly populated game?  What's to blame?

Is it the players' fault that companies like SOE see WoW's success, and try to take from their slice of the pie by coming up with a busted ass copy, and pushing it on an unsuspecting playerbase, after advertising something completely different?   Players didn't ask them to do this.  Dan Rubenfield and Jeff Freeman et al. came up with these plans within SOE when they were told to make the game better, and make it successful.  Their solution was crap, and they are responsible for their own work and decisions, not the players that were then cursed by it.

Originally posted by Hadean
There is only one language these guys understand, $$$. People who walked with their feet sent a much more clear message than anything. I doubt the suits could give one inkling of a damn about "complaints."

I agree.  I think voting with your wallet does send a stronger message.  At the same time I think it's important to let companies know why they're no longer getting your cash.  If you just leave, they may not get the message you're trying to send.

Originally posted by Jatwhal

 

Well let's blame it on the players, Lucas Arts and accountants. 

 

I honestly have to say that somewhere someone or a group of "non designers" were calling the shots.

Anyone who knows George Lucas' history of his tight grip on everything "Star Wars" (rightly so) can easily understand that he was more than likely "at the helm" of SWG.  

 

SWG started off with some of the greatest MMORPG "minds and talent" in the industry.   If anyone ever read some of their original plans/goals they can see where they completely compromised or had their design compromised after they left.

 

The leaving of these devs and the continual in and out of others makes one think of the possible conflicts that were ongoing with LA.

 

I've played since launch and I could probably find some of the posts from Devs about how rare Jedi were going to be and how hard it was going to be to play them. 

 

Can anyone say character perma-death!!

 

I think some bean counters went onto the SWG forums and without MMORPG game forum experience saw all the "whiners" posts.

 

Anyone who has been around knows game forums attract the whiny people who have more forum time than game time. 

 

I honestly believe that SWG attracted a large portion of Star Wars fans that weren't "gamers".

 

These gamers came to SWG to play Jedi and yes other professions but let's face it the "Master Replicas" is in the lightsaber memorabilia business, WalMart sold tons of lightsabers with the new movies, not blasters and power hammers.

 

Everyone remember "I want Jedi to be rare ,except for my account?"  Sure you do, you all claim to be glorious SWG vets.

 

That post held so true for the SW fans and even some of the gamer "elitists" who relish accomplishments over other players.

 

That was the first pressure from the players base....

 

Most of those posts were about how hard it was to figure out how to become a Jedi. 

Even though all the press had told them it would be hard they still complained and wanted it "rare, except for their account" while the rest of us were ingame working on it.  

 

Shoot, the game population(me included) was so slow that the devs had to give us hints. That was my first clue they were giving into the whiners. 

 

Then when those people got their Jedi they whined about the finality of their characters life. So there went perma death, then visibility, then open pvp!

 

Now who's to blame for that?  Think rationally now.  It started with the player base.  " I want Jedi, Jedi is too hard, stop the forced pvp."  While we "gamers" were in game trying to avoid perma death, visibility, loving the rarity and hardcoreness of our profession those others were the very vocal populace on the SOE forums getting listened to by ???? The devs? Lucas Arts? SOE?   

 

All the press told us what it was going to be like to play a Jedi yet those types got into the game and then flooded the forums till Jedi got nerfed to crap. 

Imagine what this game would be like if just those things had stayed in place with Jedi.  

 

Jedi was designed for the "hardcore" and only the hardcore would have stuck with it. 

 

As for the arguement of timeline- give me a break. First off lose your console mentality.  This is an MMORPG there is no "end game" there is no time "lock".   It's a forward moving world.

 

I once posted to those same whiners, then delete your Jedi if you are so thoroughly convicted to "canon".

Guess how many did?

 

Well somewhere some non gamer geek said all our models from Everquest and Everquest2 show that players like to have things handed to them. WoW's success proves these theories to be true so we need to change SWG to those styles.  

 

Well we all know how wrong they were now. 

It sure did drive subscriptions....away

 

I recently read somewhere on a forum about someone complaining about some game's interface and the reply was "it's the basic WoW interface, the industry standard. It's what all MMORPG's will use.

 

How boring is that?

 

Well I tried to play WoW at launch and 2 more times since. I never lasted more than a couple of weeks. 

 

I'm an mmorpg player, not a "console player online"

 

I've played Ultima online since launch and the only other mmorpg that I've kept playing in 10 years is SWG.    *EQ2 doesn't count since I only play that because my wife likes it* rolleyes:

Let's see now players, accountants, LucasArts.  Whose missing from this equation?  Oh yeah, SOE.  It must be everyone's fault but theirs, even though their development team came up with the NGE.  Yes, I think I see where you're coming from -_^.  I think most of the people that read these forums will also get your drift.