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All Posts by BeansnBread

All Posts by BeansnBread

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Originally posted by Nightbringe1
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by Nightbringe1
Originally posted by shalissar
well y'see grandpa it costs money to make these things, they aim to copy the top grossing because aiming for a minority is unlikely to return your investment. You're welcome for the insight.

McDonald's = Top Grossing.

I prefer Rose's Luxury, which somehow manages to remain highly profitable with a much smaller customer base.

 

 

(I am fortunate enough to work within walking distance of this fine establishment.)

The formatting controls on mmorpg.com hate me: www.rosesluxury.com

I don't know about your roseluxury but some people claiming their version of it in game form are endorsing a steaming pile.  So once again the McDonald's analogy is a failure.

Not at all: a poorly implemented game is no different than a poorly implemented restaurant. Both will fail quickly.

A well run establishment, be it restaurant or game, that targets a specific audience and does a magnificent job serving it will thrive.

 

McDonald's / WoW remains cheap crap regardless of sales numbers.

So then... McDonalds and WoW are not crap because they are both doing a magnificent job and thriving? Your comparison and opinion are all jumbled up. The strange irony about calling WoW cheap is that it is a P2P game and has, by far, the most content out of any MMORPG on the market. They also charge for expansions and have a little cash shop. If anything, it's more like an expensive restaurant that blew up to the size of McDonalds. That should be the shocking thing about it. Even though it remains expensive in a world where F2P has become common, WoW still garners mass appeal. The McDonalds analogy is always really, really bad.

 

Either way, the OP is a strawman of epic proportions. I don't think I've seen anyone in the last few years claim that WoW is the best because it grosses the most. Everyone has already addressed it, but the "best" is completely subjective regardless of revenue and pretty much everyone knows that. I think EVE is the best. Whoopdie doo for me! But I will never just put on blinders and start belittling people because they enjoy WoW (or any other game). That's what people with low self esteem do to feel better about their own choices and therefor themselves.

Originally posted by Kiyoris
Originally posted by BeansnBread
Originally posted by Kiyoris
Originally posted by BeansnBread

lol... oh god damn it. 500k concurrent. You're so funny.

what's so funny about that

It's one of the most ridiculous unsubstantiated claims I've heard in a while.

I'm sorry. You don't know the difference between a subscription and a concurrent user. Maybe you were trying to speak about concurrent subscriptions or something. They did have around 450-500k subs at one time at their peak. I think that must be what you mean. For instance, WoW has 10,000,000 subscribers and at their peak they had 12,000,000. EQ had, at their peak, 500k or so.

Originally posted by Kiyoris
Originally posted by BeansnBread

lol... oh god damn it. 500k concurrent. You're so funny.

what's so funny about that

It's one of the most ridiculous unsubstantiated claims I've heard in a while.

Originally posted by Kiyoris
Originally posted by fivoroth
Originally posted by Dullahan

EQ fans represents millions of people.  Thats like saying a football team only has 30k fans because thats all that showed up to a game.

Who are you kidding? EQ was not that successful. And it peaked  around 300-500k subs. . There are tons of p2p MMOs which had a lot more subscribers.

false, it peaked at around 500k concurrent users

The amount of total subs way way higher.

lol... oh god damn it. 500k concurrent. You're so funny.

Originally posted by Nightbringe1
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Nightbringe1
Originally posted by Iselin

And why should they be concerned with pleasing that old, faded, jaded crowd?  Time to move on and ignore the "we want the original EQ but with better graphics" fringe,

Because it is a crowd that has demonstrated its willingness to commit to a single game for 15+ years.

Unlike the more "modern" crowd that burns through a new game every couple of months before moving on to the next big thing.

 

 

Who would you want for a customer. Someone who will still be paying a subscription in 10 years or someone who is gone in 30 - 60 days?

Because it's a self-absorbed, deluded, elitist, little crowd that is holding back real progress with their dreams of, as fivoroth put it so well, "EQ1 HD".

 

The rest of the world looks at the new exciting ideas in EQN. Your crowd just looks at how it isn't like EQ1. You're dinosaurs and dead weight.

Ahh, you if ran a company, you would have no intention of targeting a long term audience.

Good news: you would fit right in with the mobile apps crowd. Release a new mass produced version of Candy Crush every three months.

There are no guarantees of a long term audience for EQ1 HD. People may not even migrate from EQ1.

My only problem with EQNext is that they are promising some things that I am just not sure are possible right now. It's the way they talk about how players can interact with the world and how everyone will have an incredible impact on it. If true, it sounds like it will be extremely open to griefing, exploit and all manners of strange unintended consequences. It's one of those ideas that sounds incredible on paper, but is broken in reality.

Originally posted by NorseGod

Are restaurants communist?

SWTOR is a good relevant example.

It's strange that you can try and use such a simple example and not see the implications towards your own argument.

 

I mean... using your example, neither F2P games or P2P games are communist or capitalist. P2P games are buffet restaurants and F2P games are regular restaurants. Which is kind of funny because you are trying to argue the complete opposite.

Originally posted by NorseGod
Originally posted by BeansnBread
Originally posted by NorseGod
Originally posted by BeansnBread
Originally posted by NorseGod
Originally posted by Boneserino
Originally posted by saker
The cult-of-infinite-greed that is Murican-style crony-capitalism killed the genre. When the "money-men" are in charge any creativity is murdered in the crib. And you can't have any kind of half-way decent gaming industry without creativity.

Guess it is time for you to look for a new hobby. 

Unless you care to vote for socialism that is.   

Why do you people constantly bitch about things that are not going to change?  Its pointless...

Socialized gaming is already here. It's called F2P and that is why I will not support it.

And Saker,

The people you mock by saying "merica", are against crony-capitalism too. The answer is not socialism, but back to a true Free Market system before the Frankfurt School infiltrated our nation.

No... F2P games,  are the ultimate representation of capitalism while P2P games, the games where everyone puts their money into one pot, are the ultimate representation of communism. 

I disagree.

People that spend money i.e. sub options = taxpayers.

People that don't pay, rely on paying gamers = welfare, section 8 freeloaders.

I think it's funny that you associate paying taxes with capitalism.

 

And it's not just the pot, it's the REQUIRED to put money into the pot that makes it socialist.

Have a few more chuckles, because that's not what I am saying at all.

Taxation is theft by use of force. Government is force.

Taking money away from one person and redistributing it to another is socialism. 

You are REQUIRED to pay for every service, or else why the FACK would anyone bother to work? That is not communism.

No, you are not required to pay for every service. Everything in real life is a-la-cart - just like F2P games once you start playing them. Once you start playing a P2P game, it is required that you dish out your taxes to the thieving government (which is another ridiculous statement).

 

These aren't perfect analogies and they never work quite right for an insane amount of reasons, but P2P falls fall closer to socialist idealism than it does to capitalist and F2P games fall far closer to capitalist idealism than it does to socialist. Just the idea of P2W should give it away.

Originally posted by NorseGod
Originally posted by BeansnBread
Originally posted by NorseGod
Originally posted by Boneserino
Originally posted by saker
The cult-of-infinite-greed that is Murican-style crony-capitalism killed the genre. When the "money-men" are in charge any creativity is murdered in the crib. And you can't have any kind of half-way decent gaming industry without creativity.

Guess it is time for you to look for a new hobby. 

Unless you care to vote for socialism that is.   

Why do you people constantly bitch about things that are not going to change?  Its pointless...

Socialized gaming is already here. It's called F2P and that is why I will not support it.

And Saker,

The people you mock by saying "merica", are against crony-capitalism too. The answer is not socialism, but back to a true Free Market system before the Frankfurt School infiltrated our nation.

No... F2P games,  are the ultimate representation of capitalism while P2P games, the games where everyone puts their money into one pot, are the ultimate representation of communism. 

I disagree.

People that spend money i.e. sub options = taxpayers.

People that don't pay, rely on paying gamers = welfare, section 8 freeloaders.

I think it's funny that you associate paying taxes with capitalism.

 

And it's not just the pot, it's the REQUIRED to put money into the pot that makes it socialist.

Originally posted by NorseGod
Originally posted by Boneserino
Originally posted by saker
The cult-of-infinite-greed that is Murican-style crony-capitalism killed the genre. When the "money-men" are in charge any creativity is murdered in the crib. And you can't have any kind of half-way decent gaming industry without creativity.

Guess it is time for you to look for a new hobby. 

Unless you care to vote for socialism that is.   

Why do you people constantly bitch about things that are not going to change?  Its pointless...

Socialized gaming is already here. It's called F2P and that is why I will not support it.

And Saker,

The people you mock by saying "merica", are against crony-capitalism too. The answer is not socialism, but back to a true Free Market system before the Frankfurt School infiltrated our nation.

No... F2P games,  are the ultimate representation of capitalism while P2P games, the games where everyone puts their money into one pot, are the ultimate representation of communism. 

I think it'll help it. Their plan to take advantage of subs for a while until they released on console should work out really well for them. What's strange to me is how anemic their shop looks at this point. I'm sure they'll drop some nice bombs on the store a month or so after the change to try and get maximum eyeballs on the items/account upgrades.

Originally posted by cesmode8
Originally posted by Salute
Originally posted by MMOGamer71
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by MMOGamer71
Originally posted by Dakeru

If 10% is considered pay to win then GW2 is heavy play to win.

 

GW2 is B2P and doesn't require a subscription for ALL PLAYERS to get those bonuses, you must have simply missed that.

It's been a while since I fired up my GW2 account.... how do you get that list of bonuses?

Via playing the B2P game or cash shop, some are even daily log on rewards i.e. Magic Find (Luck).   All with no subscription required !!

Returned to GW2 a few days now and i can say game rocks.  Imho it has the best payment system, considering its a high quality and polished game.

 

Just an FYI to everyone in this trail here, you only get XP boosts if you purchase them with gems(which are purchased with real $$).

Same deal.

 

Actually.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Account_bonus

 

And you can of course get shop currency with in game currency in GW2.

 

By the way, will they be allowing you to purchase store currency with in game currency in ESO? Does anyone know the answer to that yet?

It's always weird when people say that a game was designed great - except for all of the horrible design of course.
Originally posted by greatskys
Wonder if it will have something like the airdrops in H1Z1 . I bet it does . 

Airdrops are badass. I doubt I've seen as much drama erupt as when an airdrop is rolling in. Especially in this that style of game.

Originally posted by Dren_Utogi
Originally posted by BeansnBread
Originally posted by Dren_Utogi
Originally posted by BeansnBread
Originally posted by Dren_Utogi
Originally posted by BeansnBread
Originally posted by Dren_Utogi
Originally posted by BeansnBread

That's a gate. 

How ? when I was a suscriber to LotrO I paid 80 dollars for the MoM collectors ?

In order to access content, you must pay. I'm not saying there is anything right or wrong with it, but that is the definition of a pay gate.

SO with a subscription mmorpg, you do not have to buy expansion packs ?

An expansion is also a pay gate.

So what you are saying in great detail, F2p games and Subscriptions are exactly the same.

No. Not at all. I'm trying to speak as plainly as possible and I'm sorry that it isn't coming across clearly to you.

, you will need to give more explaination. I'm under the impression that subscription mmorpgs don't have paid expansion packs . that gatd content to a subscription base...

 

Subscription games are the most pay gated games of them all. You can access zero content unless you pay them a monthly fee. That is the biggest advantage of F2P games. They don't have an initial paygate and that gets people in the door and looking at their store - which often includes it's own paygates to various pieces of content.

Originally posted by Dren_Utogi
Originally posted by BeansnBread
Originally posted by Dren_Utogi
Originally posted by BeansnBread
Originally posted by Dren_Utogi
Originally posted by BeansnBread

That's a gate. 

How ? when I was a suscriber to LotrO I paid 80 dollars for the MoM collectors ?

In order to access content, you must pay. I'm not saying there is anything right or wrong with it, but that is the definition of a pay gate.

SO with a subscription mmorpg, you do not have to buy expansion packs ?

An expansion is also a pay gate.

So what you are saying in great detail, F2p games and Subscriptions are exactly the same.

No. Not at all. I'm trying to speak as plainly as possible and I'm sorry that it isn't coming across clearly to you.

Originally posted by Dren_Utogi
Originally posted by BeansnBread
Originally posted by Dren_Utogi
Originally posted by BeansnBread

That's a gate. 

How ? when I was a suscriber to LotrO I paid 80 dollars for the MoM collectors ?

In order to access content, you must pay. I'm not saying there is anything right or wrong with it, but that is the definition of a pay gate.

SO with a subscription mmorpg, you do not have to buy expansion packs ?

An expansion is also a pay gate.

Originally posted by Dren_Utogi
Originally posted by BeansnBread

That's a gate. 

How ? when I was a suscriber to LotrO I paid 80 dollars for the MoM collectors ?

In order to access content, you must pay. I'm not saying there is anything right or wrong with it, but that is the definition of a pay gate.

Originally posted by Dren_Utogi
Originally posted by Phry
Originally posted by Dren_Utogi
Originally posted by Viper482
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by Viper482

For me one of the most important things in an MMO is community, free to play brings out the absolute worst in MMO communities. Players have no vested interest in the game, and some just play to troll the population.

Seeing as though community is no longer a thing in MMO's, and no one seems to give a shit about it anymore this genre is just about dead. All we have now are multiplayer games, the equivalent of COD and BF4.

If this makes me an "elitist" so be it.

If you ask me, the op seems more like an elitist than anyone in this thread.

That's because the trolling becomes more noticeable. Anyway, I do have to wonder why it always seems to be the folks who want community the most who never seem to find one. When in reality there are plenty of communities within any given MMORPG. There are plenty of RP guilds who make it their goal to offer that type of experience to their members. There are plenty of hardcore raiding guilds, PVP guilds, etc.. offering the same.

Saying it's like COD, is saying you look at the surface, not the substance underneath.

 

Finding a guild to hide in and having to turn off general chat is not a community. You did not used to have to dig a hole to stick your head in, the community was everywhere, it was your home. You always had an asshat or two, but as a whole there was a sense of community without having to dig beneath the surface of the game.

So please spare me the same old "it's not the genre, it's you" crap. So tired of hearing that on this site. The genre has changed, as has the community that plays it. It has grown substantially, like a nice old town with polite people who used to sit on their porch and wave as you drove by now turned into a bustling metropolis where you're lucky if someone holds a door open for you or says good morning. Sure you can go home to your cozy family, but eventually you have to go out and deal with the community don't you?

So you feel that a subscription creates a gated community ?

gated communities tend to exist in F2P games, its just part of the monetisation policies for the most part. Not to mention the whole haves' vs the have nots, even in F2P games, freeloaders tend to be discriminated against, as they don't tend to bring anything to the party, its only natural, and probably something we'll see more of as F2P games mature.

LotrO gives the player the base game, then they can buy all four xpacs right now for 39.99 . For 39.99 a player can play all of the game for free. To me that is not a gate, but a door that leads to  fun and adventures. 

Tera may not be a AAA, but look at the players, look at the silliness going on with the costumes and weapon skins. People are happy and crazy. That is another title that gives you "all" of the content upfront and uses the item mall for cosmetics and some weapon, mounts ect. That's fine, it;'s the players money and they can do what they want with it.

 

So I actually am seeing as I Play these game more universal communities instead of the stagnated ones I used to subscribe to . That is one of the core reason why I've found nothing to subscribe to anymore. The people in subscriptions are pretty much it once that 6months rolls past, and if that community isnt clicking in the subscription game, the game becomes stale and boring. My example would be FF : Reborn. They had to relaunch an entire game to bring a community back and now it is slowly downgrading to a sustainable but not quite super successful existence.

With something like Tera online, I almost never see the same person twice and the game is always full.

Why does it matter to you if someone is a freeloader when all you should really be worried about is your own bills ?

That's a gate. 

Originally posted by Chadiwicker
Originally posted by Gaendric

MMOs are huge very expensive projects and designed very throughoutly. 

Something as important as the planned monetization and marketing methods will in almost all cases influence their design. 

I say this without attaching any generalized quality based values to the different methods. 

 

None the less, people will see these design differences as good or bad, depending on their personal preferences. Thus, we end up with the "method X games are bad" comments, which are to be taken as subjective opinions, not as universal truth. 

I don't think they have anything to do with elitism though.

People just want games they can enjoy. Some payment methods will inherently lead to design choices someone may not like. Thus for this person, the specific payment model produces "worse" games.

^^^This is one of the most reasoned posts I've seen on this site. +1

I've played both F2P games and subscription games. Elitists exist in both models. I prefer subscription models because they ultimately cost me less money (impulse buying is dangerous for me) and because the focus is more on the game and less on the in-game cash shop. I have equal access to everything the game has to offer.

Now, this is my preference. I do not believe there should be only one model. Choice is good. There are plenty of F2P games to choose from. I don't advocate against F2P games, I just choose not to play them. Please feel free to advocate for your favorite F2P games, but don't call me an elitist because I prefer a subscription based model.

I think you only actually become an "elitist" (strong sarcasm intended) when you start calling everyone freeloaders and cheapskates and start insulting other posters because you think your viewpoint is superior to everyone else's. You guys are both reasonable and just prefer one model over the other. 

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