All Posts by Nerf09

"eebeedeebeedeebee, my head is shaped like a Penis, eebeedeebeedeebee."

Originally posted by SignusM

I too enjoyed DAoC, where there were deep quests there for you to hunt for. They weren't required, but they usually gave you something nice if you hunted and had the patience to complete them.

I was in a dungeon once and one hallway I entered just lit me and my friends on fire. No idea why.Ran back out of the dungeon, talked to some NPCs about it, got a quest giving me backstory on the Roman soldier entombed in there that created the Hall of Fire, and how to destroy him and open the hall up.

Oooh aaahhhh.  How exciting.

Originally posted by Retrad

 

Originally posted by Ezen_Surreal

Seems that becuase of ever quest the first ever 3d mmorpg. Quests have become the main focus of mmos.

Quests are so boring. Remember uo? Remeber how they had the loot system. Random on dif monsters.

This plus social +sandbox + pvp + few quests would be awsome. 

 

PS

Who the F*&* wants to run around for hours on end in a world. Give us recall spells.

Im tired of eq clones.

 

God you're an idiot. Everquest did not require you to do any quests. It was a pure sandbox with...

Everquest was never a sandbox.  Everquest is everquest, the stereotypical everquest clone cause it is everquest.

Originally posted by ironore

I agree that crafting is vitally important, but lets break it down further:

What is the most important aspect of a good crafting system?  The OP mentions things like having crafting locations which promote community and RP, having variety of outputs event to the point of uniqueness, and producing goods that are desirable enough on the player market (thus being equal or better than drops)...

A player economy will never work when player crafted items are equal to drops, or even slightly better then drops.  Even in WOW there are certain levels where crafted gear is the best bang for your buck by a noticeable margin.

Originally posted by Boynrapture

I disagree with your claim that "Games will fail without in-depth crafting".

My evidence:

World of Warcraft has a crafting system which sounds similar to EVE's (correct me if I'm wrong, I've never played the latter) one of the games that you condemn for its poor crafting. And yet, World of Warcraft manages to keep 11 million worldwide subscribers. Since WoW's nearing its fourth birthday, I'm going to go ahead and declare that its old enough to be considered a long term success.. WoW's crafting system is hardly in-depth and it is certainly not a commercial failure.

Another example:

Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning is a highly anticipated upcoming MMO. According to MMORPG.com's members, it is the MMORPG they are most looking forward to playing. And in all the research I've done, I haven't found any information about it having an in-depth crafting system. Or any crafting system for that matter.

I think I am part of the majority on this issue, and as such, game developers would probably try to design their games to appeal to gamers sharing my view point than yours.

But I'm not a game developer so I can't say fer sure.

That's like saying, "nobody wants to buy a 2 door coup but 4 door sedans are rolling off the floor," when car companies produce only 4 door sedans.

Originally posted by Forcan

Originally posted by tfox2k1

Know something else, SWG proved a player controlled economy is nearly impossible to set up without having a few people controlling the entire market.    You absolutely need controls on the marketplace in an MMO and in the real world.   

SWG was typically ruled by a few very high end vendors who sold the best stuff everyone wanted.   These guys got in place playing the beta, then not sleeping or having multiple people play the same vendor to advance faster than anyone else.   Then they corner the market make a killing then underbid anyone trying to complete with them in 'their' market.      Doesn't take skill, just a bit of knowledge, some poor thinking by developers, and lots of time or friends to team up.

Again, this isn't true.  I have a friend who started with me (July 4th, 2003), and he worked his way to be a top tier Armorsmith on my server, and that list always changes due to resources shifting.  You can't blame those who play the game as it is for the failure of those who can't compete due to laziness.  Again, that is but yours and mine experiences, and they are different.  I shop around when I needed weapons and armors, and I found a few weaponsmith/armorsmiths around that compete with others to a point that I get my stuff from, then 3 - 4 months later some left due to burn-out as crafter, some did holo grind, but others got in the WS/AS business and the economy was still fairly good.  I've never seen the "beta high end vendors" cornering the market and ruining it for those who got in later.

 

Absolutely.  I started the game up months after release, became a master ranger, masked scent and explored the shifting resources of the worlds, plopped down thumpers.  All by my little self I was competing against guilds full of crafters.  I had quite a stockpile built up of high quality raw materials.

The lone ranger.  :)  I was roleplaying a ranger without getting a single quest, or being forced through a  ratmaze, or having the developer hold my hand.  I was a scout, ranger, explorer, skinner, and didn't get a single quest, it was amazing how roleplaying actually works without intending to roleplay, I just wanted to make some credits.  *rubs money through fingers*

Occasionally I would give myself a quest called, "Shop around for a good weapon for the lowest price."

Or occasionally I would give myself a quest called, "Which armorsmith or which weaponsmith can I squeeze the most blood out of?"

Or sometimes I would give myself a quest called, "Explore, sample area to put my thumper down."

My favorite quest was, "How many fireworks can I launch simultaneously, and how cool can I make it look and sound."

Originally posted by Kabbax

Sandbox games seem like they would be the easiest to make.

 

Design hundreds, or thousands of skills.  Spend lots of time on designing a intricate system for building houses, towns, town walls, and ultimately forts.

Put the appropriate resources throughout a huge randomly generated world. Fill the world with basic wild life.

Create like 8 different start locations, and let the people go.

They'll populate the maps with their houses, and towns, and forts, and fight each other over trees, and stones and deer.

Thats pure sandbox.

 

Edit: Basically, if there was going to be a Camelot, or a Ogrimmur, it would be because a large group of players worked together to build a capital. And not dictated by the game designers.

Dynamic content

2nd Edit:

Example skills: Candle Making, Shoe Making, Bridle Making, Sign Making, And of course your combat skills, dodge, parry, combat awareness, readiness, hardiness, small weapons-dagger, large weapons-swords etc...

Eve Online could do that, if only it didn't take months to grind to get your gear.  This could only work if it takes minutes and hours to grind for your gear, not months and years.  Full loot PVP and all that.  There would also need to be NPC's and towers to defend your gear when your offline.  It would be quite similar to a Real Time Strategy game.  MMORTS.

Originally posted by Raithe-Nor

Originally posted by Nerf09

So here in game-land people who want a ganking game claim ganking is really Sandbox when it really has nothing to do with Sandbox, it's just that "Sandbox" is the popoolar politically correct word right now.

 

Politically correct?  I don't think so.  I also think they [the OP and others] are the ones that actually understand how a sandbox MMO would work and which parts of them would be the most controversial as far as structure was concerned.  After all, someone has to decide how the little pieces of sand or building blocks stick together... and how they come apart.

The chief problem is that players like you [and others in this thread] came up with the term "ganking." Such a term is usually used in a sentence like this:

"I was walking along, minding my own business, when 2 a-hats pop out of the building next to me, gank me, and take all my hard-earned stuff!"

This sentence is full of problems and anti-sandbox rhetoric.  I'll list them:

1) You are not your avatar.  Your avatar can be killed, you [the player] can't.

2) Massively multiplayer sandboxes means you [the player] need to be aware of the abilities and locations of other people in the playfield.  Yes, they were hiding.  Your obligation is to either spot them ahead of time, be prepared for their arrival, or go somewhere in the sandbox where they are unlikely to follow.

3) So you didn't do any of those.  Your sand castle just got smushed, so what?  You build another.  The joy is in the building, not the having.  Sandboxes are all about creation and destruction.  Get over it and stop metagaming.

Sandboxes that don't have FFA PvP are ok.  They are like Megablocks:  generally safe for children, but easy to grow out of.  I think the OP is simply looking for something a little more complex.

Ganking has nothing to do with sandbox games.   If you want to gank join a PVP WOW server.

The only sandbox games were UO and old SWG, and there was no ganking in either game.  (In UO you could easily run away, usually).

Sandbox means a player generated economy, no NPC drops, ability to build houses (a more advanced version would be the ability to morph terrain).  Sandbox means no quests, I played SWG for like 3 months and didn't do a single quest, played UO for a couple months and didn't do any quests.

PVP has nothing to do with a sandbox.

If you want to ADD PVP into old SWG a few things would have to have been drastically changed. 

1)  Equipment , houses, weapons (crafted stuff) would have to be extremely cheap, dirt cheap, it should only take a few minutes to grind to build a small house or a few hours for a big house, so when they are destroyed in the war between rebels and imperials you won't lose months of grinding time. 

2)There would have to be NPC guards and towers that could be placed, and it would have to be exploit proof, so when the player is offline their stuff isn't destroyed, or the guy trying to destroy your assets would have to work at it.

3)  There would have to be a working bounty system, but there has never been an exploit proof bounty system.  (Your buddy or 2nd account kills the griefer and collects the bounty)

Basically rules and game mechanic changes to combat griefers, gankers, cheaters, and all around losers.

Originally posted by tunabun

Sandbox.

Sandbox does not mean free for all PVP, it does not mean complexity being heaved onto the player, nor does it mean an absence of handholding.  Sandbox does not equate linear impossibilities, and it does not guarantee chaos, nor randomness.  What Sandbox is, is the ability to have the best of many worlds, and allow for the enjoyment of myriad play styles.

If you dislike Sandbox, you dislike choice, because this is all they offer.  A Sandbox like any other game can be designed poorly.  As a boxed game can be too restricting, a Sandbox game can lack structure.  It is up to the designers to apply the right amount of structure to the rules to make it self consistent and enjoyable.  As long is this is done properly a Sandbox can be everything a boxed game is.  It can have linear story lines that may be followed, physical boundaries and limitations to the player, and even creatures with basic AI inhabiting the environment.  Sandboxes however, allow players to sidestep story lines if they so choose, circumvent some boundaries when discovered, and run into creatures that aren’t simplistic pathfinding drones.

Sandbox is simply about choice, as long as the designers create the proper tools and allow for structured flexibility, the Sandbox game has exponentially greater potential when compared to your traditional boxed game.

It could be argued that all games are Sandboxes some being more flexible in rules and structure than others.  I won’t argue that here though.
 

By your definition World of Warcraft, Everquest and every other Everquest clone is sandboxe.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Raithe-Nor

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 Of course they want an MMO.  They want to play a game that is simple, entertains them, casual and can be done with a lot of different people performing a variety of tasks.  That sounds like an MMO.

Venge Sunsoar

 

Ummm, you just put simple and casual together with "a lot of different people" and "a variety of tasks."  They don't really go hand in hand.  One even might call them mutually exclusive.

The truth is that many people who play MMOs actually do want the social experimentation features of a real sandbox MMO.  They are just confused about how it is done, and aren't good at playing such a wide-open imaginative game.  Instead of being humble about it, taking a back seat for a while, and watching better players, though, they get all huffy and basically yell "slow down!" as if it was someone's responsibility to hold their hand and make sure nothing bad happens.

MMOs probably shouldn't be built around human personality flaws.

Once again I only partially agree.  Simple and Casual with a lot of different people and a variety of tasks are not mutually exlusive at all.  I would say most people play games for entertainment and while there can be some depth and complexity (sometimes a lot of it) it should not feel like work, this is where simple comes in.  Easy to pick up and learn but a bit difficult to master.  It is becoming cliche to say it now but it still fits, "I allready have a job I don't need one for entertainment too."
 

Many do want the features of a sandbox MMO, unfortunately most also do not agree with what a Sandbox actually is.  For me sandbox does not equal no quests, it is about choice.  I can do zilliions of quests or not, I can customize the character how I want. 

For the business end of the genre it is their responsibility to hold a gamers hand, if thats what the gamer wants, or they lose the business. 

And in my opinion human personality flaws are what makes MMO's interesting.  What you call flaws, others call variety.  You watch and intereact with a wide variety of people, many of them different in many ways, some I like, others I don't but that variety, including the flaws is stops the world from being completely boring.

Venge Sunsoar

Of course many people do not agree on what a Sandbox is. 

This is  like politics.  Right now in politics "Liberal" is a dirty word, so people who are normally "Liberal" now call themselves "Conservative" to chocolate coat a turd. 

So here in game-land people who want a ganking game claim ganking is really Sandbox when it really has nothing to do with Sandbox, it's just that "Sandbox" is the popoolar politically correct word right now.

Originally posted by Deneb

Originally posted by anigous

While this idea is so simple, whats the point. How would you grow. Sure you could try to scrap up a couple of guys. Lets take into theory that guy is a warrior(staying with in the cookie-cutter mmorpg because you didn't give many details), a well rounded fighter. You have a clan willing to battle, but you forgot that all YOUR precious gear would be taken, and within the same description if this was in town he would kill you OVER and OVER again. This idea is seriously flawed. Sure hunted or be hunted is a great idea, but players wanna play a game that they can ENJOY. Not get killed every time in town.

Oh, also if you didn't think such a game would run like this then put some detail in your posts. Sure as good as it would feel to "brave" the conflict ridden land of whatever you have to make the game fit this idea.

Oh and i replied after i read the main post cause' I might like to read but a whole 11 pages of stupid PvP theories(including me) and ideas are not the reading material i enjoy...

 

A sandbox game needs to have mechanics to discourage (and not prevent) ganking and other kind of mindless killing. If you remove the possibility to attack/be attacked anywhere just to get rid of the gankers, I think you remove a lot of room for what could have been interesting PvP.

I have an idea to discourage a griefer to ruin the experience for everyone else... I don't know if it would work. Instead of just trying to kill griefers when they are on sight, NPC should literally hunt them down over and over again... just so the griefers can have a taste of their own medicine. It's so crazy it could work

Why  not just create an NPC called a "Ganker".  Make the mob 5 feet tall gangley with glasses, invicible, and have the mob randomly migrate from zone to zone killing players in one shots.  That would bring the "atmosphere" of ganking without totally destroying it.  It would even free the player "Gankers" up to do other things.

WOW should have been a sandbox to begin with.  Warcraft is a RTS where you collect raw materials, build buidlings, and craft weapons.

Originally posted by PnHobbit

Originally posted by Nerf09

Originally posted by fuzzbrain

 

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Originally posted by MaGicBush
I agree, but you should learn to spell.

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You failed.

 

You bet your butt that was "fail."  That original post was very informative.

 

Moving down the list alphabetically, "Maple Story" what's that?

 

It's good to know you're still around. You are a worthless part of every community you've ever stepped a foot in. Why don't you go back to complaining on the WWII Online forums.

Awe you hurt me feelings with a flame.

Originally posted by Zakke87

Originally posted by Xrux

Missed this completely..

no open beta or trial fase?

KFR has mentioned they're working on a free trial server, so keep your eyes open. :) Might take a while though, I have no idea when it comes.

A separate server?  Who will help the noobs?

I no longer buy games without a free trial.  And i'm a perfect prospective customer, my favorite game is wwiionline and I crafted in pre CU SWG. 

no free trial, no try out, no buy.

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

Originally posted by Nerf09

Originally posted by Pelu

OMG... is going to be 7 or 8 months since release... and they still with out the high level content????

 

Pre CU SWG didn't need any "high level content"

WWIIONLINE don't need any "high level content"

Planetside don't need no "high level content"

 

TR needs high level content and the sooner the better. Unlike Planetside, which was designed around PvP that you could be good at no matter your level, TR has poorly implemented PvP and is based on a story that at level 50 comes to an end and no MMO should ignore high level content.

 

Other games did it in the past, well the MMO industry needs to improve going forward. People simply are not going to pay for half assed attempts anymore.

To the tune of this song:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwTpZpwjtIE

We don't need no "high level content"

We don't need no "quests"

No grinding in the game.

Grinders and griefers leave them sandboxes alone.

HEY GRINDERS AND GRIEFERS leave them sandboxes alone!

All and all your just another brick in the wall.

Originally posted by snowmonky

Originally posted by Nerf09

It's fairly obvious griefers and gankers want PVP, turning a nice little sandbox disgussion into another theological disgussion on PVP.

If you want to play a real PVP MMO where the time spent grinding = effectiveness of PVP doesn't apply, then play this game:

 

 

 

There is nothing theological about this discussion.

Edit: Don't use words you don't understand to make yourself look smarter than you are.

I'll put my boot up your theologic if you don shuddup.  HAHA.  

Originally posted by Pelu

OMG... is going to be 7 or 8 months since release... and they still with out the high level content????

Pre CU SWG didn't need any "high level content"

WWIIONLINE don't need any "high level content"

Planetside don't need no "high level content"

Originally posted by wulvgar

As a beta tester and even purchased the game, I hated the release and left the game after only 2 months.

While waiting on AOC I decided to give the game one last try.

All I can say is WOW, I had a veteran show me all the new secret places they've added and tell me about all the new content you see at higher levels.

Normally I never promote a game, but felt as a 15 year mmo veteran this one worth playing now.

Yes still has bugs, but what game don't. I hear they add new faction story missions every Thursday and some new big update in the works. Has a very active PVP following and new people are joining every day.

If you love the movies you will love the game, takes time to discover all the hidden content. Even saw what appears to be Neo being reconstructed.

Ignore the Trolls who flame this post.

Geez will you guys please stop saying things like, "I'm a MMO veteran" and, "in my MMO career..."

It's not a career path, and you aint no vet.  Reading this stuff makes me feel like a super nerd.

Originally posted by fuzzbrain

 

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Originally posted by MaGicBush
I agree, but you should learn to spell.

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You failed.

You bet your butt that was "fail."  That original post was very informative.

Moving down the list alphabetically, "Maple Story" what's that?