Originally posted by Torak

Missing my point, combat doesn't mean jack without a supporting game. There are plenty of third person twitch style console games. The novelty will wear off in about 10 minutes without any purpose other then to kill 10 rats for a few coins. You are right back at square one. FPS, Third person action, P&C, MMO style, turn based...whatever........it doesn't matter if the rest of the game sucks.

Without compelling purpose, dynamic choice or a dynamic world, all it boils down to is a fantasy version "Streetfighter" with travel.

I have a friend who is constantly thinking negative about random specific genres, and it always differs from time to time. One day he'll talk negative about FPS, the next RTS, the next MMO's. What he doesn't realize (and what I try to tell him) is that it's not the genres that are the problems, but the individual games. He has a mindset that "if the game has this, it sucks" without looking at the actual core. Of course, this is just an example of the average mindset; the real reason he thinks this way is a personal problem with being pessimistic, which is irrelevant. I do not think the average gamer has that problem.

But the average gamer does have the problem of this mindset. "If the game is like this, it sucks." or "If the game has this, it is going to be awesome." without even trying the core of the game or researching the core.
They fail to think about the core of the game. People get SO WRAPPED UP in specific features, new features, and hype, that they forget to see if the game is going to be fun.

Like I said, I'm NOT excited about AoC, Warhammer, or any other new MMO releases. I am completely confident they will be hollow and not fun. Regardless of all the new features and themes, if it's not fun, I won't play it.

Do you know if there's an MMORPG has said purpose, dynamic choice, and a dynamic world that is releasing within the next year?

Originally posted by Archin

Yeah its funny, "oh yeah baby i get to swing my sword around with my mouse" suddenly everything before that means nothing, its old.. but most importantly, NOT COOL!!! if its not cool... hell.

LOL

That reminds me of something bender would say.
Like the time when Fry jumps in the slurm river, Leela follows because he can't swim, and bender appears there. Leela asks "What are you doing here?" and Bender says "Everyone else was jumping off, I just wanted to be fit in and be cool."

Originally posted by Gameloading

Originally posted by RonnyRulz

 

Originally posted by Gameloading

Just because some games are unable to implant twitch based in MMO's properly does not make the whole concept boring.

 

There are plenty here who beg to differ. 

The "problem" is that the old combat system is much more dependent on stats. You can't manually dodge, its based on numbers. You can't miss because of playerskill, its based on the numbers. In twitch based games, your skill as a player is much more important.

I agree. One way is to change the way the spells and missiles fire, and the way the melee hits.

If your "Fireball" shoots out, it can "auto-follow" the character, but the character can have multiple abilities to dodge it. It could be based on "twitch" player skill and timing, OR it could be based on using a defensive ability, or setting it active.

There are a vast number of ways to improve combat to make it more fun. You could add the twitch, or you could keep it focused more on turn-based than on the twitch. Such a way would be to have a heavy-emphasis on defensive abilities, with nice animations on them.

A simple "Q...........1...................3.........................1.......2" combat could become very intensive if some of your abilities caused your caused to leap 3 feet to the left or to quickly duck below a fireball, or to put up a shield and see the fireball press against it.

One idea is a new combat system that has just as many defensive abilities as offensive, with a big focus on defensive abilities that MOVE your character. This could remain turn-based and not twitch, but give action packed battles. Turn-based patience type players would love this, since it would remain the same style, but be so much better.

Er, that's just one idea. There's countless numbers, with or without twitch. New combat systems, old combat systems, enhancements, creations, it's all in the brains of the ambitious.

Originally posted by bleyzwun

and btw...  you're stressing this topic a little too much.  lol

Whatever you meant by that, get used to it, cause I stress all topics this much.

THE WORLD MUST KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Gameloading

Just because some games are unable to implant twitch based in MMO's properly does not make the whole concept boring.

There are plenty here who beg to differ. 

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Originally posted by bleyzwun Who the fuck would want FPS style or Diablo style gameplay for a MMORPG (i can understand FPS for a MMOFPS obviously)?  I want something similar to a fighter, with different combos and what not, mixed with the current style of MMO combat.  Manual blocking and manual dodging also.  If you don't want combat to evolve, that's your problem.  I'm not saying the current combat systems are all boring, but they do get boring after a while.  Notice how good fighters never get dull (PvP)?  The first company to make a PvP MMO with that style of gameplay, done right,  will make a shitload of money.

---

  Apparently everyone wants that.   I am NOT saying that they shouldn't evolve the current combat. That's not at all what I'm saying. Quite the opposite, it WILL evolve and become better and better, which is WHY people shouldn't throw it away. IMO, I loved the DDO way. It was a mixture of real-time turn-based classic-MMO, but with manual-dodging, manual-blocking, and manual-attacking. It was quite an impressive system, and much evolved, but still turn-based and "x20 slower than a FPS"    

---

I'm not saying the current combat systems are all boring, but they do get boring after a while.

---

One of my points was that ALL combat systems get boring after a while. The job isn't on the developer to completely change their already-release game, but for the player to learn how to bring life back into that which becomes dull. ALL things become dull, boring, or a loss in passion. It is the responsibility of the human being to keep all things alive, from the important things of marriage and family, to the small things of enjoying a game. That doesn't mean developers shouldn't change things around in their games, but it also doesn't mean they should. Developers should ALWAYS improve upon the game, whether it's enhancing a current combat system, or making a new one. Of all my points, the one I want to emphasize the most is that people and developers think changing the combat system will make the games fun, when they will remain just as hollow and dull as before.

What is a new and exciting combat system today will become a MUNDANE and boring combat system tomorrow. Eventually, it'll become DULL if people begin spreading by influence that it is dull. It is all about the player's MINDSET. You hear it's dull, you read it's dull, you are surrounded by "It's dull", and what was originaly a few newbies' opinion now becomes the standard norm.

 You hear all these player's ideas of how to make the "greatest and newest" MMO, and all you have is the exact same flawwed game design, but with a different combat system and different theme. The result will only be the exact same boring gameplay as before. Being able to have "exciting, fast-paced, action-oriented" combat won't solve the problems, because it isn't the problem.

Originally posted by Liliane

In someway You are right, because most combat systems are pretty much same. Sure there are different and some works little better than others.  The mechanic is pretty same allways. Most of combat problems isn't just the clicking, but enemy AI been so simple. There are how ever mmorpgs what are trying to make the combat more tactical, like enemies taking cover.

Also real problem isn't just that mmorpg are combat centric, but they are character development centric too.  So the problem is more like what are players doing inside the game? It's a lack of purpose and versatile actions to do something what make mmropgs booring. What mmorpgs need is other goals than "leveling" the character with simple combat . Players need game world where actions can actually affect the game world it self and where they can take alternative routes. Most current game worls and content are static with lack of choises and only real dynamic situation there is the player character. There is seen how ever little bit in mmorpgs development direction, where developers try to create alternative content and purposes.

Yes, you're absolutely right, those are a lot of the real problems facing mmorpg's. I look forward to Darkfall, but other than that I look forward to the future MMO that will break out of the box and give us something good.

I am NOT excited about Tabula Rasa, Age of Conan, Warhammer, or any other soon-to-be MMO. Regardless if they have WoW-combat or Age of Conan's third person adventure or fps-style, the game is still going to FEEL like a WoW clone, I guarantee. I'm sure Age of Conan's combat is going to be just as exciting as Everquest 1 when they ask you to kill 10 rats....but this time....YOU KILL 10 BY LEFT CLICKING 10 TIMES!!!!!!!!!!!! WOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My vision is clear and I can enjoy fun again, all thanks to this simplistic left-clicking!!! ACTION PACKAGERY!!!!!!! OH NOES, warhammer doesn't have FPS style BANG BAGN! OH NOES!

Originally posted by Aelfinn

Originally posted by Apraxis

Play Mount&Blade. The point is, a lot of people want a more interactive combat system, they want aiming, they want, that their skills influence their character and the combat. But well.. play Mount&Blade(or even Fable to some extent) to see the difference.. and it could be even better than those two examples.. with dodging like UT and so on. And of course, not everyone will like it more than the old system.

 

 

No kidding, I for one am sick to death of combat scenarios where each and every move I make might as well be done from a script, where a bot macro with the AI of a single bacteria could take over for me. Are the newer combat systems in the specific examples you mentioned any better in this regard? I tend to think the answer is hell yes, no doubt about it, but in any case... Maybe, maybe not in the end, but non autoattack combat definitely has a much greater potential.

What I am saying is that you only THINK this because of the WAY MMO's use the current system.

Please compare two MMO's that use the same system, but see how different they are played.
WoW vs City of Heroes/Villains.

If you've played CoX, you can see the MAJOR differences of having the same system, but a completely different style.

Saying that one combat system has greater potential than another is rather shortsighted. The amount of power in the ability to expand and improve an idea is greater than any one person can assume.

In some real-time turn based MMO's, you cannot have a bot macro, even with the smartest AI possible. If you think so, you've obviously never been in some system's PvP.

Of course, I won't have to say anything a few years after the Age of Conan - type MMO's release, when players begin to say "I'm tired of the old and boring third person action combat. When will they give us something new and exciting? This is so dull and boring."

The cycle will repeat itself as MMO's copy each other's combat system, only for players to get "bored" with ALL of them, which proves my point exactly that the exact system has nothing to do with anything. People will tend to think negative of things they are bored with, and positive of things yet to come. But when these things come, the people will eventually get bored with them and move on to the next fad, all while not understanding why their MMO isn't as fun as it could be, because afterall "THE COMBAT SYSTEM IS REALLY EXCITING!!!!!!!!!!!!".

Originally posted by nomadian

sorry but I think that is a load of rubbish, combat in a mmo is dull. I find combat in a fps about 20 x more exciting than that in a mmo.

Originally posted by Apraxis

Play Mount&Blade. The point is, a lot of people want a more interactive combat system, they want aiming, they want, that their skills influence their character and the combat. But well.. play Mount&Blade(or even Fable to some extent) to see the difference.. and it could be even better than those two examples.. with dodging like UT and so on. And of course, not everyone will like it more than the old system.

 

 

You don't have to tell me to play a game, I've played nearly every game in existence, with every type of combat system.
My point is that the old system is just as interactive as the others. When you break it down, there is little difference.

The only difference is when you have physics-based attacks, such as actually aiming the bow, and the arrow only hits if they are in the way (and they can dodge or move out of the way). But that makes the game into a FPS with RPG elements.

What you are saying is that people want an MMOFPS, with rpg elements. I do not think the majority want that, but that the majority would be okay with that and enjoy it, just like they would enjoy any other style.

As for those who find combat in an MMO dull and boring, please read my third post. Primarily this:

"This does not take into consideration personal opinion which is heavily one-sided.
A player who ONLY prefers FPS style combat, or a player who ONLY prefers real-time turn-based combat, will be affected completely differently based on the feel of the combat. These players are in the minority though, as most players would enjoy any combat system AS LONG AS it is fun and has the right feel."

If everyone else agreed with you that MMO's have dull and boring combat, with FPS being 20x more fun, then WoW would not be more popular than Counter-Strike.

It sounds like you two don't want an MMORPG, but a FPS.
Team Fortress 2 is coming out soon.

Originally posted by cupertino

I suspect you'll be returning to WoW.. they always do.. Wahahahaah! 

But If I was on the look out for a new game then I'd wait for Spell-born.

1. I find EQ2 a little up-tight from coming from the laid back WoW.
2. I found CoX shallower than a toddlers swimming pool, in the middle of desert in the middle of a two year drought.
3. I found VG.. not ready.. waiting on the trial.
4. I found EvE unessesarily complicated.
5. I found a certain beta of a game too much like WoW.
6. I found LoTRO too much like WoW only smaller scale.
7. I found GW too lonely.

So I am waiting for PotBS and CoS. and WotLK ofc. 

My advise take an MMO break, We got Teamfortress 2 coming out in a few weeks for your FPS fix, Company of heroes expansion in Novemember for your RTS fix.

The Company of Heroes expansion blows chunks. I'm so disappointed with that crap. Not to mention regular Company of Heroes is plagued with balance issues (Not for sides, but for doctrines.)

I REALLY hope that the expansion plummets sales, gets horrible reviews, and ruins the regular CoH game, ruining the entire franchise. The developers deserve that for making one of the greatest RTS games ever, and then ruining it by having doctrine imbalances and a horrible expansion. Regular CoH only blows chunks because it is so good, but so bad.

Hopefully someone will do to CoH and RTS what every MMO company did with WoW and MMO --------> Copy WoW.

If they made a CoH-clone, I'd probably love it to death. CoH gameplay is amazing, but the balance isn't there. A clone that is balanced would be perfect. If others make something amazing, but fail at making it playable, then you only need to COPY their idea to the T, and then fix it.

Originally posted by erandur

i don't like the core classes like dwarves, elves etc. and i'm sure i'm not the only one who needs change, as well in gameplay as in playable races, if you like mythic creatures so much, google is the key ;)  there are way nicer myhtical creatures and even more aggressive ones!

I dunno, Dwarves vs Werewolves actually sounds like a really good idea, with great fight scenes, and amazing lore.

For some reason, I just think Dwarves with axes would be a great match against Werewolves.

P.S. I've never played a dwarf in my life. I hate dwarves. The Hobbit's dwarves, Gimli and the dwarf from NWN2  are the only reason I like dwarves SOMETIMES. Yet I would actually play one if  I could be a werewolf hunter.

IMO, player skill should NOT be the end-all be-all of PvP or gameplay.

That is not to say it shouldn't be the MOST important.

Why? Because real life, as well as all fantasy, is never about player skill being the end-all be-all. Nor is this fair for those who are less-skilled, never able to beat the "elite" players. Yet it is also unfair to hurt skilled players.

In LORD OF THE RINGS, let's look at the main characters.

The Hobbits- These guys owned, despite their lack of combat veterancy or magical powers. Pure skill!!!!!!!!
Aragorn- He had a magic sword. He may have had skill, but that sword sure helped a lot. Mainly skill though.
Boromir- This guy owned. He was strong, skilled, and kicked butt. Yet he was the only one of the fellowship to die. Why? Because of circumstance. Even the most skilled player will be destroyed when arrows are flying into his chest. Circumstance.

Gandalf- Skill? Pfft. More like twinked. Gandalf was a wizard, which there are only like 5 of (or something like that). He was given special magical powers which own everyone else. Someone who is born with or just magically given God-Like powers is hardly a skilled player. I guarantee most of his power was solely because he had the ownage power of being a wizard (astari?)

How about DBZ?

Goku- Skill? Pfft, yea right. This guy was born a Saiyen, a.k.a. born with god-like powers. You die three times cause you suck? Well it's okay, cause all you got to do is hit the "I win" button and turn SSJ4. Being Saiyen with a "free 1,000,000 power level" is hardly skilled.
Vegeta- Depsite the fact he was more skilled, trained harder, and was literally obsessed with being skilled, Vegeta was always weaker than Goku. Player skill didn't win here, cause Goku was always better, without trying as hard. But anyways, Vegeta is a saiyen, so he's using a cheat code too.

Krillin- Skill? Heck yea. This guy was a regular human, but managed to power up to amazing power levels. Of course, any Saiyen could kill him by BREATHING on him. It's not his fault he wasn't born a saiyen. But he had more skill than Goku or Vegeta, because his power level owned compared to not being a saiyen. In relation to his power level and not being SSJ4, krillin would be a lot more skilled than Goku. 

Let's look at IRL, such as WAR. Let's use WW2 for an example.

I guarantee you that the best of the best of the best died in most of the wars they were in.
The most accurate marksman in the universe probably died because of circumstance.

You're a tank, but they sticky bombed you, disabled you, you ran into a mine, or are stuck in mud. People have AT guns and panzershrecks. They aren't skilled, they don't even have to outnumber you or out gun you. The fact you are unlucky and they have a weapon makes for you dying, despite your skill.

One of the best Captains of the war who commands his men with such amazing leadership gets artillery striked. A private who is so skilled he'd eventually be the greatest general in the universe gets hit by a stray bullet when his squad is running across to cover. Someone gets sniped, mined, outnumbered or cornered.

These are just a few examples of endless amounts of circumstances. Player skill should NOT be the end-all be-all of gameplay, especially PvP. Instead, it should result to NUMEROUS factors.

Player skill SHOULD be the MOST IMPORTANT aspect, just not the end-all be-all. Equipment, character-experience (Whether in level or skill form), stats, random rolls, and other factors should be very important.

In a real fight, or even a fantasy battle, a person with more experience (In a MMO, higher level or higher skill rating) will have the upper hand on a newbie that is VERY skilled.

Knowledge of combat is very important, and experience even more important. A 4-year veteran of WW2 will be a much better soldier than a fresh recruit, even if the 4-year vet has no skill and the fresh recruit is elite.
This, IMO, should be in games too. A newbie with elite player-skill shouldn't be able to slay the 4-year veteran ultra warrior just because of skill.

The 300 Spartans didn't own the Persians solely because of player skill. They owned become of experience (higher level), training, discipline, teamwork, and an amazing advantage in terrain, as well as good equipment.

I'm no game developer, but if you're serious about game design, you should check out my thread in Developers Corner (here).

I really don't care if you steal any or all of my ideas and strike it rich, I'd be happy somebody did something with them, because I most likely won't.

Er, I don't mean to sound arrogant, bragging or anything. My ideas are very unique, outside-the-box, ambitious, and just plain cool.

I suggest reading them mostly for your mind to expand. Reading other's unique and outside-box ideas will open your mind more and more, allowing for a bigger passage of your own unique, original, and imaginative ideas to flow. Not to mention my ideas kick butt :P

Take note, my thread has little to no gameplay ideas, it's purely OTHER aspects of an MMO and video game which are equally important. Mainly, going above-and-beyond what other MMO's are doing, and focusing on things which are important that players have shown to both love and desire. Primarily aesthetic parts of the game and the focus on heavy character customization (Like seen in City of Heroes/Villains) but completely expanded upon, but not hard to do. Allowing players massive amounts of freedom to create their own unique self, apart from the generic look-alike clones. A big focus on the LOOK & FEEL of a video game, in addition to any type of gameplay.

Even if you have the best gameplay ever, the LOOK & FEEL is what truly draws people in, makes them FEEL like they are unique, their own character, and developing, and there are few things more enjoyable than having fun playing the game WHILE looking good and knowing you are having fun with your own creation.

As a game developer, it is VERY important to look at EVERY aspect of a video game, and to not only refuse to skimp on any of them, but to expand upon and create every aspect to be epic and astonishing. If you do this and succeed in ALL aspects, your game will go down in history.

The biggest thing the MMO industry needs is to think OUTSIDE THE BOX.
To expand on ALL aspects of gameplay, and to finally focus on several forgotten, but still important features.
The most IMPORTANT aspect of an MMO, which the industry needs, is the "Magic" in your game.

A game can have amazing gameplay, amazing customization, graphics, animations, art, style, feel, community, and everything imaginable, but if it lacks the "Magic" or "Magical Touch" or "Magical Feeling", it will fall short of Great and end up only Good.

I am talking about the "Magic" that made UO feel special, the "magic" that made EQ what the veterans dream about, the "magic" that made SWG so great, and the "magic" that players say, without any reason, "Wow, this game is really great."

It's more than just graphics, community, gameplay, or design. It's a specific FEEL that brings an entire extra layer of fun and excitement to the game. I do not know the formula to create this magic, nor does anyone I know. BUT, I can tell you a lot of the ingredients is the community, a living/thriving world which communicates, and social aspects of the game. Not having a community, not having the right community, but having the game made in such a way that it perfectly meshes with the mindless drones who play the game the way the game tells them to play. People are thoughtless idiots who have to be TOLD how to play the game to have fun. If not, they will not have the most fun. I've proven this many times myself, just testing in all genres. Of course, player-freedom is very important, so you have to somehow FORCE them to play a specific way, but give them the illusion of freedom. This way, they'll deceive themselves into thinking they have freedom (and perhaps they will) but will be forced to play the game in the funnest way possible.

One example of this is FORCING players to not cheat and use "hacks". By banning these players, you are forcing them to not use hacks, which ruin the game for both themselves and others. If you don't ban people, everyone will use hacks, and no one will be having any fun. You have to take into consideration how stupid, prideful, and dilluted most people are. Like in the movie "Men in Black 1" People are stupid, panicy, ignorant, and just plain evil. An individual is smart, careful, learned, and deep down good (at least most individuals). You have to understand these aspects of sociology and psychology, or else you will lose the "MAGIC" that makes your game so darn fun.

Sociology is incredibly important in an MMO.
Neglect it, and you'll end up with Mute Anti-Social groups and your players feeling they are soloing, even in a full group.

Originally posted by Torak

Agree, the actual combat mechanic is irrelevant as long as it works. One of the core issues with MMOs is they are combat centric. Everything put in revolves around creating more timesinks and that is usually based on combat.

Making an MMO RPG can be done, we just have the wrong batch of people making them. I hope some of you young, up and coming people interested in getting into the industry can do better then kill 10 rats and simplistic raids.

Right now all we have is "Fantasy Stat manager online".

Exactly, you're 100% right.

Fantasy Stat Manager Online!

Thanks for the reply!

This does not take into consideration personal opinion which is heavily one-sided.

A player who ONLY prefers FPS style combat, or a player who ONLY prefers real-time turn-based combat, will be affected completely differently based on the feel of the combat. These players are in the minority though, as most players would enjoy any combat system AS LONG AS it is fun and has the right feel.

This kind of thing goes into "genre taste" more than it does combat taste. Players who enjoy FPS games would enjoy a MMORPG that has FPS (Which would be more like a MMOFPS with RPG elements) and a RTS player would prefer an MMORTS with RPG elements, or an MMORPG with RTS style combat.

What I am speaking of is the AVERAGE gamer, who doesn't have an exact preference, or whose preference is not heavily one-sided, who can enjoy any TYPE of combat (real-time turnbased, third person, first person shooter, etc.)

=========================================================

There are several ways to handle combat, as we've seen in an MMO.

Turn-based FPS: Neocron 2
Birds eye view, autoattack, special abilities:  UO
Third Person Action w/ Abilities: Tabula Rasa, DDO
Real-time FPS: Oblivion, Dark Messiah of MM.
Autoattack + Special Abilities/Spells: EQ, DAoC, WoW --------> Even CoX.

That's right, City of Heroes/Villains has the exact same system as EQ, DAoC, WoW, Vanguard, and LOTR. Can you believe that? This is what I mean when I say how the FEEL and actual gameplay of the game is more important than the actual combat system used.

Anyone who has played tabula rasa or Diablo 2 can attest to this.

The "action-packed" fps style fast-paced combat in Tabula Rasa is a click-fest. It basically is like Diablo 2, where you click each time to attack, resulting in constant-clicking. IMO this sucks, but can still be fun if done right. DDO did a similar combat system, which I liked. Tabala Rasa, I didn't. Other's taste may be the opposite, liking Tabala Rasa's, but not DDO's. This is a prime example of how the way the combat system is handled is irrelevant to the fun and feel of the combat and game.

I seriously wonder what is wrong with people's mental sight when they think changing the combat system to a click-fest or a third person adventure click-fest will save the MMO from being boring.

Like I said, anyone who has played some of the more action-packed classic-MMO's can attest that even the basic "autoattack, and "1.............2.................3.............1......2............3" can be just as fast-paced and exciting as any other combat system.

Take DAoC's PvP for example, or EQ2/Vanguard's combat system. It's the "classic" real-time turn-based, but can be very action-packed, ESPECIALLY in PvP.

All I hear from the newly released MMO's and from people's MMO ideas is to "do away with the old style of button mashing combat" and introduce A NEW STYLE OF COMBAT!!!! OoOOoOOo!!!

Tabula Rasa, AoC, and several others are switching to another type of combat.
People have all these crazy ideas about how much they hate the old combat, but love their own ideas, which are just as dull or exciting.

I am able to take an abstract look on my opinion of how combat works, without my own twisted perception tainting the opinion. People say the "old style" is boring, but IMO it's not. Not only is it not boring, but it's not any different than any other style. The REASON people think it's "bad" or "old" or negative in some way, is because they are tired of the same-ol MMO, and associate the combat system with the MMO. The problem isn't the combat system though, it's everything else about the MMO which features 1-10, and sometimes even shift+1-10 and ctrl+1-10, 30 abilities plus the "Q autoattack and wait".

People will say that the "Press Q" (autoattack) and then press 1-5 on occassion is boring, lame, and dull. They do this by looking deep into it, disecting it, and looking at what it really is like. This results in them feeling it's dull because all you are doing is "1..................1.......................1........................2.............................1".

The simple fact is that people deceive themselves into thinking any other "fast-paced" combat is better, more complex, or positive.
If you do the same thing to ANY system, it ALSO becomes incredibly dull, boring, and lame. That's because EVERYTHING in theory sounds boring.

For example...

All a First Person Shooter combat is running around..........left click............left click...............hold left click..................left click................left click.................

All a third person combat is............left click.............left click.................1................left click...........left click...........right click................left click.............

All systems are like this when torn to pieces and looked at in theory.
In fact, the "Q" then "1......2........3........4......5" has the possiblity to be MORE complex, MORE fast-paced, and MORE exciting than any other combat system. This is because it uses more than just ONE click. Take a stereotypical FPS with no pistol, and no grenades. All you have is the gun. Add pistol and you get 2, add grenades and you get 1, add second weapon you get 3, add two special items and you get 4 and 5. That is still not as complex as the classic "old" style MMO.

With this twisted perspective that "the old is bad" and "the new will be more fun and exciting" is self-deception. Game developers are going to flaunt "their new, exciting combat system" as if it is anymore impressive than the old style. Game players will smirk like retards as they enjoy it.......for the first little bit. Then they will see that the reason MMO's are dull has absolutely NOTHING to do with the combat system, but the entire game itself.

I've played games where the classic, "slow" :press Q and wai":, then "press 1-5 every now and then" is actually FAST-PACED, action-packed, and incredibly fun. I've also played games where it's slow-paced.
I've played games where the action-packed "fast" slam the left-click repeatedly, is slow-paced and very "dull". I've also played games where it's action-packed and fast-paced.

My point is that the type of combat and the way it is handled is meaningless. Whether it's real-time turn-based like Everquest, "action packed" like a Shooter, or "fast-paced RPG" like Oblivion or a third person adventure, the actual pace of the combat, the "action", and the fun are all decided in other ways. All of these can be fun, and all can be boring. They can be fast-paced, or slow-paced. The actual fun of it is determined by two things: One's perception, and one's taste and patience

People think changing the fighting system from real-time turn-based to third-person adventure is going to make the MMO fun? I laugh at this, but also pity everyone who deceives themselves into thinking that actually matters, and pity those who cannot enjoy themselves in a "Q......1.......2.......3" when it DOES feel fast-paced and action-packed, solely because of their twisted perception.... Very sad.

To me, I love the combat no matter what, based on if it's fun or not. I love all the systems and don't care for any one in particular, because they are really all the same when it comes down to their theory.

Originally posted by Jetrpg

DAoc the people that say its dead , have not even logged on. I get groups non stop and the game is the best mmorpg still. (sadly)

Don't listen to him, DAoC is dead. Being a DAoC player since beta, I can attest the game died a long time ago. This doesn't mean it is extinct though. Dead is where a once-amazing and thriving game is sparesely populated and no longer amazing, but actually one of the worst PvP MMO's now that the populations are low. RvR is plagued with population imbalances. Battlgrounds and the frontier consist of one side having two or three times as much as the second side, and the third side having only half of the second side. (So something like 60v30v10.) Extinct is where the servers are a ghost-town, which hasn't happened yet....but will unless they make it a FREE GAME.

Originally posted by lyonman24

who is chris crocker?

The lesbian in your avatar.

I just don't understand. Why do PC gamers accept low-quality, buggy, unfinished, unpolished, poor performance video games?
Game Developers are releasing games that aren't finished, are filled with game-stopping bugs, no polish at all, and horrible framerates on even the lowest settings, completely LYING about "recomended" system specs.
I for one am tired of this, and am going to begin reading about video game's problems before buying, and BOYCOTT any that suffer from these stereotypical problems.

What is your opinion? Do you think Game Developers are doing a bad job? A good job? Most of them good and a few bad? Most of them bad and a few good? None good? None bad? All mediocre? Give us your opinion.